RTG's - What have we learned can be controlled in the backend?

[takethemoney]

Ok, so there has been speculation about what the operators of RTG casinos can and cannot control. Some of it has been quite wild speculation, such as rumors of the proverbial "switch".

In the past month I have learned that the operator can control the RTP...sort of. Most recently I have learned that the random jackpot does not reset to the same amount in all casinos. At Rushmore I noticed one start off at $5000, not the normal $1000 like most. I also learned about reel symbols and how they can be changed by the casino. I also just learned that the rate the Random Jackpot accumulates is an operator setting.

Here is a potential biggie:
The rate a random jackpot builds is an operator setting in the back end. Have you ever played and felt nobody else was playing, since the number on the RJ was not moving? I thought the counter was broken recently. Support emailed me back and told me the game was set to only move 1c for every 50 spins at $1 per spin. Hence, it has been revealed that too is an operator setting. They can also make it look like the casino is quite busy changing this setting.

So my question is, how can we really trust RTG to be truely random? Does everyone really believe it is? How will we ever know for sure? How much trust do you all put on Technical Testing Sytems? I can put a label on my website too, telling me that the software has been tested for randomness. That doesn't make it true. I read a lot of complaints about the way the games play lately. It seems worse in the past couple years. I feel this too as I play.
Who are we small gamblers to question anything a casino tells us?

I have pretty much given up RTG as I have a gut feeling that what I suspect will soon come to light. Now I understand there has to be a winner once in awhile, and the casino has to continue to boast it's 95.6% payout or whatever they say. Who is watching over who is telling us all this? Yes, people, it's ok to question things!

 

[Dangerous53]

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Ah, the good old days of ignorance, the more I learn, the less it makes me want to play.

 

[takethemoney]

I don't know that they would be in trouble if it has little bearing on anything. I suspect that we've been bamboozled for awhile on this. 1c for every 50 spins at $1 is pretty bad, IMO. I know I personally played $8000 thru a machine who's jackpot at the time was just over $10,000. That was pretty dumb of me but I was challenged to see if I could hit it. The machine's jackpot last time I checked was over $20,000. So, what I'm starting to believe, generally, is when these things pay they have taken in an obscene amount of money.

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Ah, the good old days of ignorance, the more I learn, the less it makes me want to play.

 

[Pinababy69]

LOL...I'm the only one who voted yes? Wow, talk about being the lone wolf in the crowd. So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

 

[DogBoy001]

Most recently I have learned that the random jackpot does not reset to the same amount in all casinos.

And as has been explained several times, operators are able to choose whether they have a reset of $1000 or a reset of $5000, and the percentage increment is set to (a) for the $1000 reset and (b) for the $5000 reset.
This difference in increment is so that RTP is consistent.

I also learned about reel symbols and how they can be changed by the casino.

I suggest you learn some more then, as your investigation is incorrect.

Reel symbol changes are part of the back-end defined RTP settings.
i.e.: There may be differences between the reel strip on a 97% game compared to a 95% game, for instance.
To say that casinos are able to adjust reel strips directly and arbitrarily is not the case.

Here is a potential biggie:
The rate a random jackpot builds is an operator setting in the back end. Have you ever played and felt nobody else was playing, since the number on the RJ was not moving? I thought the counter was broken recently. Support emailed me back and told me the game was set to only move 1c for every 50 spins at $1 per spin. Hence, it has been revealed that too is an operator setting.

No, actually that doesn't mean it's an operator setting, it means the operator has selected option 2 from a back-end setting.
Accumulation is not displayed in real time, for the same reason it isn't updated in real time in land-based casinos, so the meter never stops.
As stated previously though, if you go back to the lobby and re-enter the game, the jackpot meters re-sync.

How much trust do you all put on Technical Testing Sytems?

Well just about every major regulator has certified TST to carry out these functions, if that helps.

Woooof

 

[XOXOXOXOXOX]

So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

i did not vote and i don't believe its truly random but i do play because there is still a chance to win and get some entertainment. Just accept it as a part of the game.

 

[TOC]

The fact is takethemoney posts negative threads and posts about anything and everything negitive. Search the posts, it's like Debbie Downer on SNL! I don't know if software providers cheat, or casinos but why post the same shit over and over again without something to back it up? Geesh.. If I was a software provider and read this thread I'd be coming after your butt! Why must we go on and on about the same ole crap. If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online. Not a good poll, rather disgusting to the industry and anyone affiliated with RTG or their casino's. JMP ....

 

[4 of a kind]

Dogboy001,

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Do you have access to the entire program of any one software provider, or just work on parts of a particular program?

Would it be safe to say that we could consider the information you provide us here, similar to having our own personal software tester?

Have you ever been aware of any software foul play of any type what so ever in your work place?

I know you mentioned in the past that you would request to RTG to offer the players a Real-Series version with no random jackpot. Exactly what is your job description?

 

[KasinoKing]

LOL...I'm the only one who voted yes? Wow, talk about being the lone wolf in the crowd. So just out of curiousity...for those 10 people (so far) who voted no....why do you still play? If I didn't believe it was random, that would mean it's a fixed or rigged game...to some degree anyway. And if I believed that, I would quit playing tomorrow. I don't get it.

Totally agree.
If you don't like what you're getting with RTG - go elsewhere!

If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online.

Pretty twisted logic there.
But then, we've come to be used to that from you, an RTG casino operator.

KK

 

[TOC]

Dogboy001,

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Do you have access to the entire program of any one software provider, or just work on parts of a particular program?

Would it be safe to say that we could consider the information you provide us here, similar to having our own personal software tester?

Have you ever been aware of any software foul play of any type what so ever in your work place?

I know you mentioned in the past that you would request to RTG to offer the players a Real-Series version with no random jackpot. Exactly what is your job description?

I think it's land based casinos, so where does online come into play, even if he/she really works with casino software for a land based software provider. Takethemoney should share credentials or back off in my opinion. And as we all know land based is totally different than online so whats the point?
Oh MY. :machinegu

 

[TOC]

Totally agree.
If you don't like what you're getting with RTG - go elsewhere!


Pretty twisted logic there.
But then, we've come to be used to that from you, an RTG casino operator.

KK

KasinoKing your a fool, I'm an affiliate operator just like you. If you want to play I'm here!

 

[DogBoy001]

Since you are a technician that actually works with casino software I truly respect your comments. If you don't mind I hope I can ask a few questions.

As I have stated in several previous posts, we are an independent company that supplies games to RTG (and land-based groups).
I'll provide answers to some of the questions.

Based on all your technical posts which are numerous and informative, should we then put our minds at ease that everything is 110% straight up with online casino software?

In regards to RTG software, that is correct.

It's as random a system as any of the major land-based groups, and I have worked directly for IGT, and in my time I have supplied games to and worked closely with Bally, WMS and many smaller providers.

Would it be safe to say that all the players here when combined which would equate to millions of hours of play time, and taking into consideration all this experience of past and present results; any suspicions we the players have at least about the software, should be considered ridicules and that their is no chance of any foul play on the casinos side, at least with the software you are familiar with?

Players are generally suspicious by nature, but in regards to RTG software there is no chance of independent modification of the games on the part of the operator.

Suspicions do not equate to truth, but they are terribly hard to expunge.
Take the "why did my game re-download, it's rigged" argument.
Well yes, games do need to be re-downloaded on occasion, in fact it has happened twice recently with some RTG games, the first due to an art update of the rules page to highlight limited RTP contribution to the jackpots, and the second with the addition of the toolbar.
No matter what the truth behind the matter, suspicions always remain.

On another note on suspicions and cries of foul play, a considerable number of issues that I see posted on these forums relate to RTP settings.
It is a misconception that having several RTP settings that an operator can select from, and have changed via RTG (that is, not on the fly), is somehow less than kosher.
I have pointed out that this is standard operating procedure for the bricks & mortar casino industry, and any major regulation of on-line play will reflect this precedent.

...

Half of the population of Australia believe that B&M slots are rigged, but they ignore mathematics in their argument.
Players are subject to the fact that limited spins produce wildly varying RTP in a random system (and limited spins is relative...5000 spins is a drop in the bucket of a game cycle).

As with the B&M industry the on-line industry has its doubters.
In regards to some software systems those doubts have foundation, but not RTG's.
But players will always believe only what they want to believe.

Woooof

 

[TOC]

It amasses me how the regulars on this site attack posters with crap they don't even understand. KasinoKing can look at my site and see it's an affiliate site. I bet the guy has RTG sites listed on his portal site but hes replying to this thread, go figure. Your site and name is disrespectful, my opinion. I used to respect you but your totally out of line.. Quit trying to be the pit bull at CM because your out of line..

 

[KasinoKing]

KasinoKing your a fool, I'm an affiliate operator just like you. If you want to play I'm here!

I shall restrain my reply - but thanks for the laugh!
For the record; I'm not an affiliate operator, I'm an affiliate.

It amasses me how the regulars on this site attack posters with crap they don't even understand. KasinoKing can look at my site and see it's an affiliate site. I bet the guy has RTG sites listed on his portal site but hes replying to this thread, go figure. Your site and name is disrespectful, my opinion. I used to respect you but your totally out of line.. Quit trying to be the pit bull at CM because your out of line..

Me out of line?
All I said was your logic that "if one casino software is rigged - then they all are" is twisted.
And for that I get your ridiculous attack and insults?
Get a life.

KK

 

[TOC]

I shall restrain my reply - but thanks for the laugh!
For the record; I'm not an affiliate operator, I'm an affiliate.


Me out of line?
All I said was your logic that "if one casino software is rigged - then they all are" is twisted.
And for that I get your ridiculous attack and insults?
Get a life.

KK

OK I'll refrain too but there is no difference in an a affiliate or affiliate operator, sorry. I bet everyone gets a laugh from that, I did. I make money just like you, what 40% from a casino? Back off my friend and I'll be kind because I'm an affiliate just like you, plain and simple.. PS - Laugh all ya want but anyone with any since is laughing at you about now, sorry! Honestly stop while your website still has credibility... Look, I'm not trying to give you or your website a hard time but when you bark up the wrong tree I will be there so move on my friend!! Your out of line.

 

[dcpam39]

So my question is, how can we really trust RTG to be truely random? Does everyone really believe it is?

Yes, I believe that RTG is a random software. I don't think operators need to mess with the randomness of the software to make money. They have far more effective techniques, i.e. bonuses/wagering requirements, accepting deposits 24x7, but limiting withdrawals on the weekends, and holidays, when most people are probably playing; not allowing withdrawals to an ewallet if you deposit with a cc (even if most of the time you use ewallet-Rushmore casinos); not releaseing payments for 5 business days-and then requesting security docs (rival).
I have found that i win with RTG--it's the cashing out that is sometimes the problem.
Pam

 

[Simmo!]

KK / TOC. Enough already please - its a derail. Take it to PM if you must.

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

As far as the reel symbols go, I thought it depended on what the RTP was set to, which can't be changed without RTG approval. That was my understanding from a previous post anyways.

Snap.

I think Dogboy is the man to listen to on this. But for what it's worth, I'd read something recently that made me question this, so I asked two reputable RTG operators at ICE I know for the lowdown and they both (independently) told me exactly the same thing: that any change to games or payouts has to be requested, with good reason, in writing through RTG and if the reasoning was substantiated, only then would it be considered.

Additionally one of them told me, most Real Series slots at a specific casino have to have the same settings across the board, with 95% being the most common setting, so a change to one affects the majority. And of course, the Random Jackpot affects the overall RTP.

FWIW, I was also informed that RTG used to allow operators to play with the settings some years back but there was apolicy shift due to unscrupulous operators using it to obvious advantage. Now if only they'd do a "policy shift" regarding licensing dodgy operators

I voted "yes", but for a couple of months prior to January I would have voted "unsure" LOL.

 

[DogBoy001]

It was always my understanding that the RJ was around 1.5% of RTP, which would mean 50 spins at $1 on a 96% RTP should increase the RJ by .70 or so. Whoever let it slip to you about the settings would probably be in big trouble if management found out.

Heya,

As is usually the case, one should take technical information supplied by help staff with a grain of salt...they usually do not have a clear understanding of the mathematics involved.

The total jackpot RTP is around 1.3% for the single jackpot reel series games, however it is important to note that this is not the increment.
The RTP includes the seed value in this calculation (either $1000 or $5000).

The "no more than 1.5%" statement found on the rules pages was inserted in preparation for the introduction of the Minor/Major jackpot system, which differs slightly from this c.1.3% total RTP consumption.

Woooof

 

[Pinababy69]

Players are generally suspicious by nature, but in regards to RTG software there is no chance of independent modification of the games on the part of the operator.

Suspicions do not equate to truth, but they are terribly hard to expunge.

Take the "why did my game re-download, it's rigged" argument.
Well yes, games do need to be re-downloaded on occasion, in fact it has happened twice recently with some RTG games, the first due to an art update of the rules page to highlight limited RTP contribution to the jackpots, and the second with the addition of the toolbar.

No matter what the truth behind the matter, suspicions always remain.

Half of the population of Australia believe that B&M slots are rigged, but they ignore mathematics in their argument.Players are subject to the fact that limited spins produce wildly varying RTP in a random system (and limited spins is relative...5000 spins is a drop in the bucket of a game cycle).

As with the B&M industry the on-line industry has its doubters.
In regards to some software systems those doubts have foundation, but not RTG's.
But players will always believe only what they want to believe.

Woooof

Outstanding post Dogboy, and pretty much sums up exactly how I feel about the whole "rigged" argument. Not only do players believe what they WANT to believe...the mind will rationalize things in strange ways. Maybe someone loses more than they should or wanted to...the brain starts finding "patterns" to explain away what has happened. You can make yourself see anything, if you really want to. The 5000 spins comment above is SO true. When I read posts of people who say they deposited $100, took $1 or $2 spins and busted....I shake my head. You are giving yourself only a minimum of 100 spins to hit something. Not near enough. You can easily bust out in minutes, and more than likely, you will...on ANY software.

This is why I deposit very small, and bet very small. Sometimes on RTG slots, I will start off only playing 10 lines or 10c bets. Because I know if the machine isn't hitting right away...I could be there for a while, lol. Betting smaller ensures I'm going to get more spins...thus giving me more of a chance to "maybe" hit something.

Don't want to ramble, but that really is a great post.

 

[takethemoney]

I don't come here to get combative with anyone. I don't know who you are but the fact you are connected to the industry in some way makes me care even less from a credibility stand point. Nobody comes after anyone's butt for having legitimate questions. I don't know about you, but I do not live in a communist country where one must watch what they say. You don't scare me. That said, I have posted when I have won too. All my posts aren't negative. Most of the information I posted as fact has already been outted by others. The only thing new I added was what I was told about the RJ accumulation rate setting by an actual CSR from a casino, who got this info directly from tech.

And as suggested, I no longer am depositing at any RTG casinos. I know what I've witnessed over much time and many hundreds of hours over thousands of hands. The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago...I promise. There is more bitching as of late about too few bonus rounds and too small of pays when they do hit. There is familiar talk about how money deposited does not yield the kind of play or entertainment that it used to. Or, about how we see less 5 of a kinds or 5 scatters. When was the last time anyone here got 5 scatters on Cleopatra's gold? When did you last get 5 Cleopatra's. I had them several times prior to 2 years ago. It doesn't happen anymore. What about 5 white diamonds on Diamond Dozen. I used to hit them, but never anymore in many, many thousands of spins. It's not in my head. All I'm seeking is truth and transparency. Until I see more of it I shall refrain from playing.

Peace
PS - I know the poll numbers are relatively small right now, but if 2/3 of the voters feel the game is not truely random then then the industry has a PR problem. Everyone who feels this way is probably not playing to the potential they would be if there were no such doubts. What about all the customers RTG casinos have lost due to such doubts? If I had to take a guess, I would say that gambling online, in general, is down right now. New casinos open up every week and start spamming for $$$. I've been getting lots of phone calls from some apparently desparate establishments, seeking my deposits.

The fact is takethemoney posts negative threads and posts about anything and everything negitive. Search the posts, it's like Debbie Downer on SNL! I don't know if software providers cheat, or casinos but why post the same shit over and over again without something to back it up? Geesh.. If I was a software provider and read this thread I'd be coming after your butt! Why must we go on and on about the same ole crap. If RTG cheats then all software providers do, so everyone needs to stop playing online. Not a good poll, rather disgusting to the industry and anyone affiliated with RTG or their casino's. JMP ....

 

[deucebag]

Heya,

As is usually the case, one should take technical information supplied by help staff with a grain of salt...they usually do not have a clear understanding of the mathematics involved.

The total jackpot RTP is around 1.3% for the single jackpot reel series games, however it is important to note that this is not the increment.
The RTP includes the seed value in this calculation (either $1000 or $5000).

The "no more than 1.5%" statement found on the rules pages was inserted in preparation for the introduction of the Minor/Major jackpot system, which differs slightly from this c.1.3% total RTP consumption.

Woooof

Q: What is the difference in RTP from the point of view of the player there and then if the RJ $1k and say $10k (assuming both are seeded at $1k)?

 

[DogBoy001]

The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago...I promise.

And yet, other than some operators in that time changing between the 3 RTP settings, nothing has changed.

When was the last time anyone here got 5 scatters on Cleopatra's gold? When did you last get 5 Cleopatra's. I had them several times prior to 2 years ago. It doesn't happen anymore. What about 5 white diamonds on Diamond Dozen. I used to hit them, but never anymore in many, many thousands of spins.

Odds against such events:
5 scatters in Cleopatra's Gold: 243 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 Cleopatras: Playing all 20 lines: 20 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 white diamonds in Diamond Dozen: 243 combinations in over 59 million
I'm not surprised that they don't hit very often

And these aren't overly large game cycles. 5 reels with say, 30 positions on each reel, yields 24.3M

Top paying combinations are hard to hit

Woooof

 

[DogBoy001]

Q: What is the difference in RTP from the point of view of the player there and then if the RJ $1k and say $10k (assuming both are seeded at $1k)?

Here you're talking about the difference between theoretical and actual RTP.
The following is a bit technical.

The theoretical RTP consumption of the random jackpots relates to the average trigger value.
What it hits at on any given trigger is not relevant for calculated RTP, as it is purely a matter of RTP = Average prize * Probability to hit.
This is the same as the calculation for any normal combination prize, like a 3, 4 or 5 of a kind on a payline: Combinations/Total Combinations * Prize

Actual RTP varies from theoretical over varying sample sizes of play.
It's entirely possible to get an RTP of 1000% or 0% on a given sample of spins...so if you hit a random jackpot, the effect there and then is that your personal actual RTP is probably going to be very, very high.

Actual RTP and theoretical RTP for the total game come closer and closer together over more and more spins, but even then you need sample sizes of a very large number of spins before one can say with confidence that the two are going to be pretty close.
For instance, RTP on a 95% game with a moderate volatility may be +/-20% from expected RTP (so between 75% and 115%) after 10,000 spins 95% of the time (this is a 95% confidence level, meaning that 95% of results should fall within this calculated range, based on a normal distribution curve).
Shift that to 100,000 spins and you're looking at +/-5% from theoretical RTP (so 95% of results should now be in a 90%-100% total RTP range).

The trouble is on low amounts of spins normal distribution curves go out the window, and it becomes a very skewed distribution pattern...hence you can get some extreme results.

Anyway, back to the case at hand, RTP as far as a game goes is a calculated value based on probabilities versus prizes.
From the point of view of a player, however, it's based on "what has my return been over my period of play."

Unless there's large amounts of play involved the two will rarely correlate.

Woooof

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Here is my stupid question of the day. "we all get one a day".....

I was told, someplace else, at some other time...........Regarding table games, that there is no such thing as 100% random. That some RNGs use a timer, and this has to be programed, "ie told what to do", by a human. As example, at 3:45 an 2/10 of a second, not all 37 numbers on a Roulette wheel can hit. Only the number programed to hit can?

Is there any sort of truth, or anything to this?

 

[silcnlayc]

DogBoy001:Odds against such events:
5 scatters in Cleopatra's Gold: 243 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 Cleopatras: Playing all 20 lines: 20 combinations in slightly over 31 million
5 white diamonds in Diamond Dozen: 243 combinations in over 59 million
I'm not surprised that they don't hit very often

And these aren't overly large game cycles. 5 reels with say, 30 positions on each reel, yields 24.3M

Top paying combinations are hard to hit

Woooof

It is nice to know you still can give almost perfect stats on cherry picked questions that suit your style and that you choose to answer with exact info...while glossing over other questions with some mumbo jumbo...that seem to make you squirm...

And I saw some of those screenies, larger bets will have a comparatively much better chance of hitting a jackpot, and at $10 bets that's roughly a 1 in 30,000 trigger chance at the end of each bet.
Still unlikely to hit 5 in quick succession, hence why it doesn't happen every day, but it does happen.

Woooof

Um, where are your stats on this??? Just a general, "It does happen"??? Interesting.

takethemoney:I don't know who you are but the fact you are connected to the industry in some way makes me care even less from a credibility stand point.

My thoughts exactly. Especially when one tries to hand pick questions they only want to answer directly...

Unless there's large amounts of play involved the two will rarely correlate.

Woooof

I guess over 17 years of online gaming is a "small" amount as you say, yes?

The games are not the same as they were 2 years ago

Because I , too, have seen these changes..but then you are the so called expert that can say whether or not this was a minute amount of play one has done for so many years..in your perception of reality and all these years do not constitute enough play for anyone to "notice" a shift in play on the games...Sure, I believe...because you are the so called "expert".

I also quit depositng except for a token now and then...because as you said, if you believe they are not on the up and up, move on...I did, and I know many others have and will continue to do so.

In all the years I have played, I finally saw my first Random disappear in a casino last night while I was playing my monthly token...odds of that??? Too funny...it reset at a $1000 ...and I said, to myself...same ole, same ole, but at least I got to see my first one "disappear"...