RTG and RTP - the official word

[The Dude]

Ah yes, another RTG RTP thread

What makes this one different is that it's an official statement from RTG

When I was in Montreal for the GIGSE, I sat down with one of their executives and clarified a few things - one was the RTP that has created a number of discussions. Here is the scoop on what goes on:

There are three settings for the RTP on RTG slots. 91.5, 95 & 97.5%. When games are released they are set at the default 95%. The 91% is designed primarily for those operators who use RTG software for Asian kiosks and Internet cafes where these games are played. 95% of all RTG casinos have their slots set at 95% - ed. note: we've already seen two operators (iNetBet, ClubWorld) state that they have never messed with the settings. We can assume that their slots are all set at 95%

The operator does not have the ability to change the setting. If the operator wishes to have a setting change, he/she must submit a request for the change in writing with a reason. Once this is processed by RTG the setting is changed. This change affects the game for the entire platform - not for specific players.

Future game releases will probably omit the 97.5% RTP and only include 91 and 95 with the 95% gut remaining as the default. Players need to understand that the RTG real time slots are very volatile, and your results may be higher or lower depending on the length of your play time. These games are tested with over 100 million spins before being released.

I hope this will clear up any misunderstandings, rumors, etc.

 

[KasinoKing]

Well I suppose that's good news!

Funny they didn't mention the ones which have a 94% setting instead of 95%. I guess we'll have to assume that would be the default on those.

KK

 

[chuchu59]

Well I suppose that's good news!

Funny they didn't mention the ones which have a 94% setting instead of 95%. I guess we'll have to assume that would be the default on those.

KK

Am I wrong in saying that the statement by RTG means there should be no settings other than 91.5%, 95% and 97.5%?

Slots are volatile by nature but IMO RTG should have clarified this a long time ago especially when Dogboy001 was still active in the forum. Oh well, better late than never I guess. Hopefully, the casinos wont adopt the 91.5%. It's way too low especially when there are huge WRs to be met. A pity that 97.5% will be omitted for the new releases. Seems there will be less playtime for your buck in future.

 

[winbig]

Hold on...I'm confused.

note: we've already seen two operators (iNetBet, ClubWorld) state that they have never messed with the settings. We can assume that their slots are all set at 95%

Ok, this statement makes it seem as if the operators can change the settings at will. Why would they take an operators word, and assume that their RTP % are set to 95%, if the below statement is in fact true?

The operator does not have the ability to change the setting. If the operator wishes to have a setting change, he/she must submit a request for the change in writing with a reason. Once this is processed by RTG the setting is changed. This change affects the game for the entire platform - not for specific players.

If this was in fact true, then there is no reason that RTG has to "assume" that their payouts are set to 95%. They would have a hard copy of the change request, and would be able to quote from that.

Again, why would the operator have to tell RTG what their RTP is? RTG should know this stuff.

 

[Simmo!]

note: we've already seen two operators (iNetBet, ClubWorld) state that they have never messed with the settings. We can assume that their slots are all set at 95%

Hold on...I'm confused.



Ok, this statement makes it seem as if the operators can change the settings at will. Why would they take an operators word, and assume that their RTP % are set to 95%, if the below statement is in fact true?

You missed out two important letters in your quoted text Winbig:

It said "Ed. Note"...not "Note" as you quoted.

"Ed. Note" standing for "Editors note", meaning Bryan noted that - it wasn't part of the RTG statement.

 

[The Dude]

You missed out two important letters in your quoted text Winbig:

It said "Ed. Note"...not "Note" as you quoted.

"Ed. Note" standing for "Editors note", meaning Bryan noted that - it wasn't part of the RTG statement.

Correct - that was my note. Since the default is set at 95%, and both these operators have stated that they have never messed with the settings, then we can assume that the RTP for their slots is 95%.

 

[Simmo!]

Correct - that was my note. Since the default is set at 95%, and both these operators have stated that they have never messed with the settings, then we can assume that the RTP for their slots is 95%.

FYI, Club World told me theirs was 95% back in January and Tom recently posted their annual payout percentages in another thread which seemed to back this up.

 

[takethemoney]

I'm sitting here right now trying to calculate how big of a bankroll I'm going to need to play 100 million spins, so I can test the RTP.

Thanks CM!

 

[funeral979]

My only question is here is, where does the whole 'double pear' on Fruit Frenzy fit into this?

This was something that was only noticed recently (maybe in the last year or so?). If I remember correctly, it was pretty much implied that casinos with the double pear on FF had their slots set at the lowest setting (91.5%). Even if it wasn't though, this was noticed at alot of RTG casinos.....so we can only assume from this that there were quite a few RTG casinos that had their RTP settings changed at some point in the last year or so. So either the figure of 95% of all RTGs have their slots set at 95% is an exaggeration....or the double pear was/is in fact a HIGHER setting?

Or am I missing something here?

 

[blacklabrador]

I have played nothing but MG sites up until 2 months ago. From my expieriences, MG is much more steady it seems on payouts than RTG sites. I have had some nice cashouts on video poker over the years on Riverbelle which has MG ( Hit 2 royals in one night totalling 30k.) However, it seems as if RTG is VERY streaky when it comes to slots and video poker.

I have been on the good side of bonus round after bonus round on games and also been on the the bad side where you can spin a couple hundred times and get no bonuses. I am on club world and I am wondering if it is 95% or 91%, i highly doubt it is 97%.

 

[De Beuker]

My only question is here is, where does the whole 'double pear' on Fruit Frenzy fit into this?

This was something that was only noticed recently (maybe in the last year or so?). If I remember correctly, it was pretty much implied that casinos with the double pear on FF had their slots set at the lowest setting (91.5%). Even if it wasn't though, this was noticed at alot of RTG casinos.....so we can only assume from this that there were quite a few RTG casinos that had their RTP settings changed at some point in the last year or so. So either the figure of 95% of all RTGs have their slots set at 95% is an exaggeration....or the double pear was/is in fact a HIGHER setting?

Or am I missing something here?

I was asking myself the same question.
That whole RTP story started when someone spotted a double pear on FruitFrenzy, I think that was at Rushmore, and that double pear was not there earlier.
DogBoy then said that this was for different RTP settings.
Its easy to spot because RTG games always return to their default reelsettings when you exit them, so if you open FF the double pear is there for everyone to see...or its not there. You don't even need to spin.


I've seen the pears at Casino Titan, but not at Lock for example.
But please note that FF has only 2 settings, 97.5% and 95%.
So I guess the double pear means 95%.

The games that also have the 91% setting are mostly the Wooden Boy/Haunted Opera type slots, I never play those anyway.

 

[4 of a kind]

Ah yes, another RTG RTP thread

What makes this one different is that it's an official statement from RTG

When I was in Montreal for the GIGSE, I sat down with one of their executives and clarified a few things - one was the RTP that has created a number of discussions. Here is the scoop on what goes on:



I hope this will clear up any misunderstandings, rumors, etc.

Don’t want to be the rotten apple in the bushel here, but an RTG executive having a conversation with Bryan, or obviously with the Casinomiester web site about RTP settings, would be like Bernie Madoff having a conversation with a group of investors promising them great returns if they invest with him.

You always tell us to prove with evidence when we think we’re being cheated. Well I’m sure not just me but most here would like to know what proof you received that would confirm those settings you posted are actual fact. If you hold evidence please bring it forward or the alleged confirmed settings you want to put to rest once and for all, is really nothing more then he said, she said, you said. If it’s just words even from an RTG executive the glass remains empty. Did you expect him or her to tell you, "yea we pretty much do whatever the hell we want". Bernie was the executive of his investment firm. They got billions also. While you had this chat with an RTG executive were you able to get an explanation why they support rogues?

Serious online gamblers that lost hundreds of thousands of dollars over the past decade, and had fun doing it, would never accept 2 or 3 or even 4 percentage points being able to justify the devastating play results over the past two years at RTG.

Please don’t even mention Technical Systems Testing labs certificates as evidence of fair core RNG’s. Soon, I hope I will be able to expose their actual testing methods.

I know you wouldn’t even think of suggesting the strong arm of regulatory enforcement are enforcing and are confirming these settings. Most every one here knows there is no enforcement not in the least bit.

Throwing all RTG operators in the same decaying basket is not fair either. The rare couple of honest RTG operators are forced into a corner and carry the automatic bad reputation RTG has evolved into simply by association. It’s their fault for not putting up a fight after investing such large amounts of money in RTG software, and at some time afterwards they had to eventually discover that the RTG software provider is nothing more then a street hooker willing to spread their legs even for a known aids victim.

The EU has some interesting ideas with regulation. Their considering only letting online casinos operate out of individual countries where each country would have the jurisdiction to impose regulation. Many here will counter that this idea is being developed for greed. But maybe it’s because they care about their citizens and can’t do anything about the massive inquires they must receive about their citizens getting ripped off from third world country casino operators. The strong and honest casinos would be able to relocate operations and the rogues would be forced to stay put.

In addition if you’re interested how a real regulatory agency confirms RTP’s click this link and scroll down to Attachment B Auditing Slot Revenue.


Old / Expired Link

 

[chuchu59]

Since RTG is being so transparent about the RTP would it not be possible to state in the Help File what the settings (97.5%, 95% or 91.5%) would be for each slot. No need for secrecy.

 

[4 of a kind]

Since RTG is being so transparent about the RTP would it not be possible to state in the Help File what the settings (97.5%, 95% or 91.5%) would be for each slot. No need for secrecy.

I love your clever sense of humor.... Not sure why anyone thinks by posting RTP's would change anything. Without regulation why not post 99.9 % ?

 

[winbig]

Please don’t even mention Technical Systems Testing labs certificates as evidence of fair core RNG’s. Soon, I hope I will be able to expose their actual testing methods.

Good luck in that...

A: By law, TST is unable to answer questions relating to the specifics behind the gaming systems we test due to standard Non-Disclosure Agreements we are required to enter into to maintain confidentiality of our client's testing and technologies. Our testing results are private intellectual property owned by the gaming suppliers and operators (and in certain instances the regulators) we work with, and can only be communicated to the public where our clients choose to discuss our testing or post their certification letters online. If you have any questions about our testing, please direct them to the appropriate gaming supplier or operator. Your concerns are important, so if you have any unanswered questions after directing them to the appropriate gaming supplier or operator, please feel free to direct them to the associated gaming authority / regulatory body.

 

[4 of a kind]

Good luck in that...

All I'll say for now is their are RTG operators not happy.



(and in certain instances the regulators)

You just got to love that line...

 

[maxd]

Don’t want to be the rotten apple in the bushel here, but an RTG executive having a conversation with Bryan, or obviously with the Casinomiester web site about RTP settings, would be like Bernie Madoff having a conversation with a group of investors promising them great returns if they invest with him.

Well you pretty much are being the rotten apple, aren't you? Your analogy draws a strong parallel between Bryan and one of the biggest swindlers of all time. Someone who will die in jail for what he did! That's pretty damn rotten apples!

Frankly that's pretty offensive stuff. And it begs the question of what the hell you are doing here?

 

[Jasminebed]

Well you pretty much are being the rotten apple, aren't you? Your analogy draws a strong parallel between Bryan and one of the biggest swindlers of all time. Someone who will die in jail for what he did! That's pretty damn rotten apples!

Frankly that's pretty offensive stuff. And it beggars the question of what the hell you are doing here?

If you read 4 of a Kind's post again, I think he is comparing the RTG exec to Madoff. Perhaps still offensive, but not slanging CM off, except to imply he failed to get more confirmation than just someone's official statement.

There are different levels of executives within any large organization, and perhaps not all are privy to all the facts.

 

[maxd]

If you read 4 of a Kind's post again, I think he is comparing the RTG exec to Madoff.

Ok, now I see that. So in that scenario Bryan is being likened to a witless dupe. Not much better IMHO, given Bryan's experience in the business.

Besides, all of this is based on the OP's well-established assumption that without "regulation" everything everyone says is a lie. That's pretty one track thinking, deeply flawed logic, and just plain wrong.

 

[Jasminebed]

Ok, now I see that. So in that scenario Bryan is being likened to a witless dupe. Not much better IMHO, given Bryan's experience in the business.

Besides, all of this is based on the OP's well-established assumption that without "regulation" everything everyone says is a lie. That's pretty one track thinking, deeply flawed logic, and just plain wrong.

Seems that most of Madoff's investors were anything but witless dupes. And this was in an industry that does have a lot of regulations.

Bryan posted an official statement from RTG. CM members can make of it what they will.

 

[maxd]

Seems that most of Madoff's investors were anything but witless dupes. And this was in an industry that does have a lot of regulations.

Actually I disagree on both counts. As far as the investors went apparently the majority of them just handed over the cash once Madoff flashed around his promised rates of return. Most were monumentally non-descriminating, presumably willfully blinded by the profit potential claimed.

As to the regulations the industry had largely been deregulated and as the scheme advanced even the remaining regulations where routinely ignored.

Not sure what you mean about the official RTG statement, but that's fine too.

 

[The Dude]

Don’t want to be the rotten apple in the bushel here, but an RTG executive having a conversation with Bryan, or obviously with the Casinomiester web site about RTP settings, would be like Bernie Madoff having a conversation with a group of investors promising them great returns if they invest with him...

I've known (or have been meeting) a number of the RTG execs for for nearly ten years now, and as far as I know, they have always been frank and honest with me. I cannot recall one occurrence where they tried to pull the wool over my eyes or outright lied. So to make this comparison does not hold water. Do we need to be so dramatic?

Again, this is a statement from RTG - it's not derived from me disassembling the software, testing the math, secretly interviewing dozens of employees, or shaking my mojo stick; it is a statement approved by them.

If I didn't have faith in the RTG software or its operators, you wouldn't find any of them listed here on this site.

 

[4 of a kind]

Ok, now I see that. So in that scenario Bryan is being likened to a witless dupe. Not much better IMHO, given Bryan's experience in the business.

Although Jasminebed had to point out to you my true intentions with the comparison of Bernie/RTG, I want to apologize for maybe selecting a crude example. Insinuating my alternate intention was to likened Bryan as being a witless dupe also is ridiculous. Your comments seem to expose your premature will to bear arms with tunnel vision, as soon as someone challenges your personal believes.

I thought forums were designed for open debate? You appear more concerned to rid me simply cause I have an opposing view.

Bryan responded like the true diplomat his reputation was built on. And he is right in pointing out that I didn't need to be so dramatic in my attempts to get several points across with the Bernie/RTG comparison being the least of them.

In addition he was correct in mentioning having faith when gambling online. For that is pretty much what it's based on.

 

[Nifty29]

Although Jasminebed had to point out to you my true intentions with the comparison of Bernie/RTG, I want to apologize for maybe selecting a crude example. Insinuating my alternate intention was to likened Bryan as being a witless dupe also is ridiculous. Your comments seem to expose your premature will to bear arms with tunnel vision, as soon as someone challenges your personal believes.

I thought forums were designed for open debate? You appear more concerned to rid me simply cause I have an opposing view.

Bryan responded like the true diplomat his reputation was built on. And he is right in pointing out that I didn't need to be so dramatic in my attempts to get several points across with the Bernie/RTG comparison being the least of them.

In addition he was correct in mentioning having faith when gambling online. For that is pretty much what it's based on.

Bryan stated that he accepts what the RTG exec told him based on the fact that they have never lied to or misinformed him in the past.

Now, you are basically saying that RTG are blowing smoke up his sit-upon and he is blindly going along with it.

It all comes down to trust.

Bryan trusts (based on past experience) that what he has been told is correct.

In turn, based on my past experience with Bryan, I trust that he has good reason to trust his source of information.

Not sure where that leaves you.

 

[maxd]

Your comments seem to expose your premature will to bear arms with tunnel vision, as soon as someone challenges your personal believes.

I don't believe it's my personal beliefs that are the issue here. I read in you statements what I said, an uncalled-for attack on Bryan's integrity. "Tunnel vision", yeah, that's probably true to an extent. I obviously read more into your analogy than you intended, but as you say it was a poorly chosen analogy.

I thought forums were designed for open debate? You appear more concerned to rid me simply cause I have an opposing view.

Please read my post(s) again. It was the attack on Bryan that was at issue, not your views on any particular thing. And I don't believe anything was said about getting "rid" of you at any point. I think that gets us back into overly dramatic territory and as Bryan said, how is that necessary?

 

[The Dude]

Okay folks - let's remain focused - RTP discussion it is

One thing I want to throw out amongst everyone - how important is an RTP of 91-97.5 percent if you can't stop playing? I think the most important factor is quitting the game when hitting big. That's one of my personal rules - I hit big (50%-100%+ of original deposit) - I cash that portion out. If you're playing with a bonus, you can't do this.

 

[Mavin1]

Okay folks - let's remain focused - RTP discussion it is

One thing I want to throw out amongst everyone - how important is an RTP of 91-97.5 percent if you can't stop playing? I think the most important factor is quitting the game when hitting big. That's one of my personal rules - I hit big (50%-100%+ of original deposit) - I cash that portion out. If you're playing with a bonus, you can't do this.

For myself the RTP is very important, according to my play experience past and present, I feel the past play was in the 97.5%+ range, where the present play is now in the 91%- range. Can I stop playing, heck yes! I have, RTG has met it's doom with me.
Also when a player is shopping for that casino, they are looking at the RTP payouts at the sites they visit and will invariably choose the ones with the higher settings. But if they are getting less than advertised RTP, then how does this leave players feeling about the casinos that pull in players based on the higher RTP?
I for one would not choose a casino that advertised an RTP setting of 91% or lower, but have ended up feeling like this is what we are getting just the same.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Okay folks - let's remain focused - RTP discussion it is

One thing I want to throw out amongst everyone - how important is an RTP of 91-97.5 percent if you can't stop playing? I think the most important factor is quitting the game when hitting big. That's one of my personal rules - I hit big (50%-100%+ of original deposit) - I cash that portion out. If you're playing with a bonus, you can't do this.

RTP is VERY important when trying to compare offers made by competing RTG casinos. One casino could have a modest bonus offer, but a 97.5% RTP, whilst another could have a much better looking offer, with lower WR, but be using the 91.5% setting.

RTG have made the majority consensus into an official statement, so anybody who believes RTG are "up to something" has a starting point, and only need find evidence that contradicts the RTG statement.

The "double pear" observation on Fruit Frenzy is important though, as it seems to contradict the RTG official statement. Dogboy confirmed this was down to a different RTP setting being uses, so here is PROOF that not all RTG casinos stick with the default 95%.

According to RTG, only 5% of casinos opt for a different setting, so we should see this "double pear" in about 5% of RTG casinos (give or take a margin of estimation).

The 91.5% is INTENDED for kiosks, and NOT for online casinos. ANY online casino using 91.5% is, in my view, cheating players out of a fair "bang for their buck".

RTG KNOW which casinos have opted for alternative settings, and what these settings are. Now, if anyone suspects an RTG casino of being "tight", they can seek to demonstrate that the slots are set to 91.5%, and this can be done through analysis of the reel strips, and calculation of total return. This should be (relatively) straight forward where only free spin and multiplier bonuses are available, using principles laid down by Zoozie in the calculation and simulation of the RTP of several Microgaming slots.


I have noticed a trend in both MGS and RTG, and that is that new games APPEAR to be low volatility, but are in fact VERY HIGHLY volatile. This can give the impression of a very low RTP.

 

[blacklabrador]

I have now made 6 deposits now on Club world casino with no cashouts, and minimal bonus rounds. I do only deposit $50 at a time, and play for .50 a spin, and $1-$2 when I am up but nothing so far. I played on sportsbook.com before this which is also (well was...) a RTG site and cashed out regularly. I am going to try a few more times here, but it appears that Club world is definately set lower than Sportsbook.com use to be.

If this continues, I will simply play MG sites 100% of the time. It's ashame if this is the case because RTG is a nice change of pace when you get bored of the MG games.

 

[takethemoney]

I've known (or have been meeting) a number of the RTG execs for for nearly ten years now, and as far as I know, they have always been frank and honest with me. I cannot recall one occurrence where they tried to pull the wool over my eyes or outright lied. So to make this comparison does not hold water. Do we need to be so dramatic?

Again, this is a statement from RTG - it's not derived from me disassembling the software, testing the math, secretly interviewing dozens of employees, or shaking my mojo stick; it is a statement approved by them.

If I didn't have faith in the RTG software or its operators, you wouldn't find any of them listed here on this site.

Just a question, so please don't get pissed. If these RTG execs are so honest and trustworthy, why for God's sakes have they allowed these rogue casinos to operate using their software? They must certainly have a way to deactivate an undesirable. The very fact that the Virtual group and others of it's ilk has been allowed to thrive as criminal enterprises speaks volumes about the integrity of this software provider. Everything revolves around money...ethics be damned. Have you ever asked them why they allow the likes of Virtual and others that are listed in your rogue pit to keep using RTG software?

 

[4 of a kind]

Bryan stated that he accepts what the RTG exec told him based on the fact that they have never lied to or misinformed him in the past.

Now, you are basically saying that RTG are blowing smoke up his sit-upon and he is blindly going along with it.

It all comes down to trust.

Bryan trusts (based on past experience) that what he has been told is correct.

In turn, based on my past experience with Bryan, I trust that he has good reason to trust his source of information.

Not sure where that leaves you.

Comments like this leave me wondering why certain people who may be gullible think that everyone else should be also.

I’ve been gambling my entire adult life and consider myself an extremely experienced well informed professional gambler. Although only playing online for a decade, I also consider myself a well informed professional online gambler. I’ve probably spent more time gambling online in a decade then all the time I spent in land casinos throughout my life combined. Without ever hitting a life changing win (yet), I also understood all along what the expectancy outcome would be. My only concern throughout was to control the long term expected losses keeping them as low as possible. The thrill of the gamble at least to me was and still is worth every penny I lose doing it. I was blessed with a career that afforded me this luxury hobby and have no regrets. Of course I’ve tilted beyond logical sense at times but always regrouped for the love of the game.

With the amount of play time and experience I’ve accumulated playing online casinos, I’m prepared to go to my death in defending my beliefs that the last two years while playing online casinos have been nothing less then unfair RTP’s. I could only speak for the games I play and mastered to the ultimate level of advantage, and could only assume it would be across the board for all other games offered.

I also was always paid when I cashed out and was always personally treated like royalty with every casino I played at online right up to the last bet I made before I quit. Even at the rogues I frequented in the past although were slow payers they too always treated me well.

Without becoming a member here I never would have even known of all the rogue tactics taking place and experienced by other players. I would only read in disbelief. I don’t even want to get into all the rogue tactics being employed today since my may concern is cheating RTP’s.

You want a million spins or hands for proof? Well how about 20 million or maybe 50 million hands of experience? I never cried wolf once about my losing experiences in the past. I let myself get abused for two years before I decided to take a stand knowing full well something is a foot in cyberspace.

So, with plenty of time to spare I went after online regulation. Well sorry to bring you up to date but there is none. I don’t care what anyone wants to counter; there is nothing but complete zero.

So if a player has a problem and no real regulatory agency to complain to, (and I don’t mean all the phony ones that exist by name only in some third world jurisdiction) what do they have? MAX???? And if it’s one of the accredited casinos you better have crossed all your t’s and dotted all your i’s or be ready for the onslaught.

Self regulation by Advocates and Affiliates is the only thing online players have to fall back on at the present. With some of the cases I read about at other forums one would really have to wonder whose side their really on.

After Bryan had this chat with an RTG executive he trusted, why couldn’t he come back with answers to the real questions everyone wants to know? At least just explain why RTG supports rogues.

I felt Bryan was in a stronger position to get some real answers and very disappointed he posted nothing more then some more smoke and mirrors about RTP’s.

Trust and faith in who? If I deposit money into an online casino I want to gamble and know I’m getting a fair game. I don’t want to recite the Lord’s Prayer before every hand I play.

 

[takethemoney]

Wow, powerful opinions here. I too know for a fact something has changed and the RTP is not just as simple as a handfull of settings. Ok, so 91.5, 95 and 97% are the supposed official settings available.This is all based on the what someone says, which we can either choose to believe or not. I am no mathmetician and haven't the slightest clue how to figure out a true RTP. I'm certain someone with knowlege in this area could run substantial enough tests to draw a fairly accurate conclusion. I don't understand why it's not been done independently yet, although I surmise it's a huge committment to a study which will require substantial time. So there are always going to be questions. Questions I have always had are:

Servers - Who has care, custody and control of them?
Concern: If the operator has possession and control of servers software engineers can be hired and the games be configured to do what the house wants, be it take the jackpots up to the moon before payment, or simply gaffing code to make sure certain combinations never hit, or less often.

What backend capabilities does the operator have?
Concern: A player's outcome can be controlled by changing settings in the backend. Sometimes it's as simple as booting the player off the server when they are winning. I can't tell you how many times thats happened, only to return to an ice cold machine. How is a takedown mode explained? We've all experienced them, no matter what sized bankroll, no matter what action taken, once the software decides you are done, it simply take your bankroll.

RTP - Are we really being told the truth?
Concern: There might be other settings available than the 3 pubished settings. Size of RJs are getting bigger and bigger and at the same time players seem to be complaining more about no good hits, fewer bonus rounds, lower pays on bonus rounds, etc.

 

[The Dude]

Just a question, so please don't get pissed. If these RTG execs are so honest and trustworthy, why for God's sakes have they allowed these rogue casinos to operate using their software? They must certainly have a way to deactivate an undesirable. The very fact that the Virtual group and others of it's ilk has been allowed to thrive as criminal enterprises speaks volumes about the integrity of this software provider. Everything revolves around money...ethics be damned. Have you ever asked them why they allow the likes of Virtual and others that are listed in your rogue pit to keep using RTG software?

It's too early in the morning to be pissed

Actually, I do discuss this (what up with the roguish sites). Some of these rogue sites are from the lack of due diligence on RTG's part in the past. They admitted this years ago, and have been monitoring the complaints since then. When I am aware of serious player issues, I give them a heads up. In every case they contact the operator telling him to get it together. Remember, there are two sides to every coin.

In the case of the Virtual Casino group, this has been going on for some time. Someone is not getting paid, I contact them, phone calls are made and in most cases it's settled. It was actually easier before the UIGEA - RTG could get directly involved, but since 2006, they have not been able to deal with players directly. I should remind everyone that they do have a third party that deals with players issues; I'm hoping that players will utilize

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. Casinomeister no longer deals with Virtual Casino complaints. RTG's stance is if players are getting paid, then there is no real issue. To give credit where credit is due, Virtual has been paying it's players (except for one [big] situation) - it's their business ethics I don't like.

...

After Bryan had this chat with an RTG executive he trusted, why couldn’t he come back with answers to the real questions everyone wants to know? At least just explain why RTG supports rogues...

I did get a lot of answers - I always do. It's just that the topic of this thread deals with RTP - and that's what we're talking about

On a side note - and I've mentioned this before - post a list of questions in a separate thread and I'll see what I can do putting together an FAQ of sorts. RTG, MGS, Wagerworks, etc.

 

[Simmo!]

If this continues, I will simply play MG sites 100% of the time. It's ashame if this is the case because RTG is a nice change of pace when you get bored of the MG games.

I think that's exactly the right approach. If you choose not to believe the RTP is what they say it is then go to somewhere where you do. I don't play RTG slots anymore myself because a) I prefer MG, Wagerworks and Playtech slots and b) while I like volatile slots, the bulk of the RTG armoury is highly volatile and for me there isn't enough balance. I think RTG have cocked up a bit here in fact - they should have some without RJ's, more with lower variance etc.

But, I've seen enough from my sessions at iNetBet and Club World to believe the RTG statement. I definitely win less often - but my experience suggests when I win, I'll win bigger. My problem on RTG is that I set unrealistic targets for cashing out instead of taking the 50% profit etc LOL

The big thing for me - especially with RTG casinos where most of the slot games are supposedly the same RTP setting - is when you see the annual return percentages published. That will be an audited figure and will generally be within a % or so of the actual RTP setting.

Just a side note: 91.5% is low for online slots, but is still better than most land-based slots isn't it?

 

[chuchu59]

We go haywire when there is nothing official from RTG and bonkers when they churn something out. I am not saying that we should believe that they are saying the truth ie 3 settings but cant we use the 3 figures for a start. If what RTG states is true we can now request casinos to display the setting for each and every of the slots (must be 97.5%, 95% or 91.5% right). We can then examine the RTPs on our play and examine the correlation if any. If say, Diamind Dozen is pitched at 95% and I have gone thru 10K spins with a RTP at 85% I would be looking for answers from the casino as to why the RTP is so low despite the setting. At least now I have a starting point to base my queries on.

It is also possible to devise strategies for your slot play. If RTG is to be believed, all deposits with bonuses should only be played on the older slots as the new ones come with settings of 91.5% which will definitely kill you if there are hefty WRs. If you want to try out the new ones take no bonus and try to hit big on many less spins. Simple as that.

With this revelation, I wonder if Bryan could use the 'display of RTG settings to each slot' as an accreditation criteria. We are looking for transparency although this is only to be uesed for RTG casinos and not casinos with other software.

 

[jod5413]

I have poked through this thread a few times and am confused about this.

If an RTG casino is set at a certain percentage, does that mean ALL of the games are that setting? 95% is what Bryan was told for most casinos, I believe he said. Can operators ask for and get permission to change only certain slot games or is it the whole game menu that can only be changed?

I hope this makes sense, I can't figure out how to say what I mean! Dang, and I'm not even blond!!

 

[Simmo!]

OK this isn't RTG, but I think its relevant. This is the type of legitimate documentation that I think RTG casinos could use to give an indication of where their RTP is set. King Solomons group (Playtech) have just appointed

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to audit their payouts and published them online here:

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[cheetahwind]

From what I'm seeing here, I realize this is an honest simple discussion about RTP from RTG.
I've noticed RTG is just as streaky as the rest of the software I have played.
They all have there ups and downs.
Tonight on both RTG and Vegas Tech, I had at least 2 hours of play time off of a $30 deposit (vegas tech) and $10 deposit (RTG).
Some other nights I barely get any playtime period.
Now at both casinos I took 50% bonuses with 20x playthroughs.
I must say 2 hours for those deposits in my opinion is pretty good. Compared to some nights where I barely last 15 minutes on either deposit.
Now I cant state what my RTP was for the total night, but it would seem to me. If your so focused on what your actually getting for an RTP based on one session. Then I would state your not looking at the whole picture.
The only way to get an honest opinion on a RTP from any standpoint. Is to take several, and I mean several sessions and put them together. So as for those of you who squawk there not getting a fair shake. Then I would love to see some detailed graphs, either here on the a web site that suggests otherwise.
I mean I've always come to the conclusion that the casino comes out ahead in the game. I've had several cashouts from RTG. Some small, some big. This is in the last year none the less.
So to get to the end here. I'm just wondering what people are depositing and what there expecting when they play at these casinos. Apparently it's either something big or just playing recklessly. I mean what happened to the entertainment factor going on here. I realize the penny is getting tighter these days because the economy is shitty, and no one is spending as freely. Heck I'm a server of many years. I've noticed a dramatic decline in my tips, but I realize it's just shitty times. So maybe were all just crying wolf because no one is playing as much?
I dunno, that's just my opinion anyways.

 

[4 of a kind]

OK this isn't RTG, but I think its relevant. This is the type of legitimate documentation that I think RTG casinos could use to give an indication of where their RTP is set. King Solomons group (Playtech) have just appointed

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

to audit their payouts and published them online here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Sounds good and promising. But what we want is proof with no loop holes still in the equation. For example:

TST's Game Payout Calculations were limited to the game play logfiles submitted by Playtech.


Why not confirming it was calculated based on 100% of their log files, not just what was submitted.

In addition from their own website:

Some US regulators fear that the remote nature of iGaming makes it impossible to verify that operators are actually using approved game versions. TRUE, with iGaming assuring the ongoing integrity of the games is a little more complex, but the fact remains that there are proven technologies that can be used to accomplish this.

Sounds like their not being used at the moment...

Dedicated software programs and control environments can be put into place to watch over the games, and ensure that only approved versions are running live. These same systems can even watch over the development versions of the games, ensuring that any changes are being tracked for subsequent compliance testing.

Sounds like the same here... I could only assume this type of monitoring is not being used now since the existing alleged regulators are not demanding it be put in place. Their own comments admit that that sites have the power now to run unapproved manipulated versions.

 

[Lucky Loser]

I play online to get a good RTP, otherwise I would bet at land based casinos

95% is acceptable, but 91.5% is definitely NOT.

Casinomeister should ensure no accredited RTG casinos have the 91.5% setting because that is a complete rip off !!

 

[KasinoKing]

If an RTG casino is set at a certain percentage, does that mean ALL of the games are that setting? 95% is what Bryan was told for most casinos, I believe he said.

Can operators ask for and get permission to change only certain slot games or is it the whole game menu that can only be changed?

From info posted in various threads around this forum, the consensus of my opinion is that they can be changed individually. In fact, logic demands that this MUST be the case since some of their slots simply do not have a 91% option, others don't have 97.5%, and some don't even have a 95% setting - being 94% instead. (If you want to know what these settings are, go to the RTG page on Slotbeaters.com).

What I don't understand is why the reluctance from accredited casinos at least, to display what each of theirs are set on. Though I would not be too surprised if this is disallowed in their license agreements with RTG...

KK

 

[Simmo!]

From info posted in various threads around this forum, the consensus of my opinion is that they can be changed individually.

The slots are divided into a small number groups and an RTP change will affect all the slots in the group, assuming what I was told still stands. Not sure what those groups are though: probably linked via no. of paylines and shared network jackpots at a guess.

 

[chuchu59]

I wonder whether these settings have included the 1.5% for contributions to the RJs.

 

[Scooter7]

Just a question, so please don't get pissed. If these RTG execs are so honest and trustworthy, why for God's sakes have they allowed these rogue casinos to operate using their software? They must certainly have a way to deactivate an undesirable. The very fact that the Virtual group and others of it's ilk has been allowed to thrive as criminal enterprises speaks volumes about the integrity of this software provider. Everything revolves around money...ethics be damned. Have you ever asked them why they allow the likes of Virtual and others that are listed in your rogue pit to keep using RTG software?

After more than 6 years (1 lurking and 5 as a CM forum member), I find it easy to believe that Bryan's instincts about whether or not to trust a software provider's statement are sound. That said, takethemoney's question is one that isn't frequently addressed (not just for RTG, but for any provider with less than spectacular licensees) and no satisfactory solution is likely to be forthcoming. Other than the Galewind fiasco that was handled with amazing grace by the provider (shutting down a licensee and paying the player), the software providers take a very hands-off approach that is akin to a see-no-evil-hear-no-evil mantra as long as the revenue continues to flow. It could never happen, but if each provider owned their own casino and eliminated the licensees altogether, they would be a lot more likely to have increased transparency and player trust. As it stands now, even if we fully believe in the integrity of the software, the vast chasm between reputable and disreputable casino operators paints the whole industry with the brush used by the worst of the lot, staining the good and bad alike.

 

[lost2much]

Inet customer service just told me that they are set at 95% EXACTLY. I told him I never seem to win anything, etc. His reply was "maybe you should find the cashout button more often". I responded that maybe I should get an opportunity to cash out more often! I'm sure he is just being funny, but I'm not sure that the 95% he refers to is RTP, maybe it's that 95% of us never win anything at Inet!! Who knows, I guess it's possible that 95% is the true #, but I have my doubts based on recent experience. $750 in the past few weeks worth of "experience"!

 

[whitespade]

95% my foot

Inet customer service just told me that they are set at 95% EXACTLY. I told him I never seem to win anything, etc. His reply was "maybe you should find the cashout button more often". I responded that maybe I should get an opportunity to cash out more often! I'm sure he is just being funny, but I'm not sure that the 95% he refers to is RTP, maybe it's that 95% of us never win anything at Inet!! Who knows, I guess it's possible that 95% is the true #, but I have my doubts based on recent experience. $750 in the past few weeks worth of "experience"!

Same here. About the same amount of deposits over the past few weeks and the same results. Playtime has been absolutely pathetic- LOWROLLIN.

95%- man, please.
(but of course they are going to say this)

You could never convince me that their slots are even set at 91%.

 

[lost2much]

Maybe old Alan at Inet meant 59%, at least that would appear to make more sense!!

 

[takethemoney]

Maybe old Alan at Inet meant 59%, at least that would appear to make more sense!!

No such setting in the can, unless the server sits on the operator's property, then they can do as Mighty Slots, RealVegas, etc. Back before I knew Mighty Slots and RV were rogues, I used to play them. All you'd need to do is play them to see what I mean. They clearly run a rigged encarnation of RTG.

 

[lost2much]

yeah, I know takethemoney, but it really has just been brutal there. If the fact is that they use these three settings, it isn't hard to see which one I'm playing with!!

 

[darkpixie]

Sent the request to close my Inetbet account today, $100 plus $50 bonus, low rolling at 20 cents, played a couple the feature guarantee at 50 and 75 cents (with abysmal results), biggest hit was $25 on 20Cents after I already pumped $20 into the game by then my account was already eroded to about $4.

Hit 10 features total. Average feature paid $8.90. I'm convinced RTG hates me.