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Robbed by robbers with a licens

sureeee just rub it in why dont ya :D:mad::o

Its an extreme slot for sure and the most insane thing I have every played. With a ridiculous variance ... and can see why many hate it. But its one of the few slots I play at higher stakes , (im not trying to tempt people to up bets just saying what I do ) but on this heinous beast I wont go under £1 per spin, usually £2 and today's session for £4 per spin. Reason is the hits can be pretty big and constant in the base game so often I have bailed out just a few 100 ahead but still ahead (only to loose it all on Twin Spin or elements ) and didnt bother trying to hit the bonus round.

But I know we are going to see some monster hits in the coming months, this slot in the right mood can drop 10,000x bet! Or even more! I heard one guy has hit 14000x ...:eek:
 
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Its an extreme slot for sure and the most insane thing I have every played. With a ridiculous variance ... and can see why many hate it. But its one of the few slots I play at higher stakes , (im not trying to tempt people to up bets just saying what I do ) but on this heinous beast I wont go under £1 per spin, usually £2 and today's session for £4 per spin. Reason is the hits can be pretty big and constant in the base game so often I have bailed out just a few 100 ahead but still ahead (only to loose it all on Twin Spin or elements ) and didnt bother trying to hit the bonus round.

But I know we are going to see some monster hits in the coming months, this slot in the right mood can drop 10,000x bet! Or even more! I heard one guy has hit 14000x ...:eek:

Ive done sessions with $4-$10 bets but the game wasnt paying for most of them so I had to stop pretty quickly as it would drain me too fast. i did get a a hit way back when like yours. I think it was a $4 bet and I won around $1300

yeah someone got 14000x. Some girl on twitch who is a lower roller doing min bets has got a 2000x and 1200x on it and when stat collecting in pm with btg he told me someone hit 5500x the day before.

I really really wanted to do 1 million spins on it but i was getting way too frustrated with it not even half way. it was way too rinse and repeat so I just had to stop. It wasnt fun anymore. But maybe a big long break will bring me back.
 
Ive done sessions with $4-$10 bets but the game wasnt paying for most of them so I had to stop pretty quickly as it would drain me too fast. i did get a a hit way back when like yours. I think it was a $4 bet and I won around $1300

yeah someone got 14000x. Some girl on twitch who is a lower roller doing min bets has got a 2000x and 1200x on it and when stat collecting in pm with btg he told me someone hit 5500x the day before.

I really really wanted to do 1 million spins on it but i was getting way too frustrated with it not even half way. it was way too rinse and repeat so I just had to stop. It wasnt fun anymore. But maybe a big long break will bring me back.

Yeah it dont surprise me to hear of such massive wins. It is possible totally ... ! But not a game I would hang around on or chase a bonus on ever. I stay on it as long as my balance holds out and set the amount I am prepared to loose before playing. Example today I was on around £270 balance (I think) and was prepared to take it down to 150 then move on. Its a controversial game for sure, and getting more speak time than DOA these days. But i still think its one of the best releases in a long time. And not because of the big wins so much but because it can keep a balance going. (sometimes ) )
 
Hey Grey!

These are all very high variance games and we would expect to see RTP results similar to what you listed when we are looking at spin counts below 10,000. I would highly advise you join the Slot Tracker community even if its as a free account to monitor your daily results. That being said, here is a quick run down for the community data we have for those games...


- T

On DoA my stats a few weeks ago were:

spins - 20,424
Number of wins: 6,103
RTP: 29.88%


I have completed more spins since then, I think it was almost 28,000 with an RTP of 26%.

The rest of my stats were not great which is why I gave up depositing but I will use slot tracker when I return.

Thanks :)
 
I agree, this is a great community, let's not forget that.

For the most part, it's a pretty positive place. Given recent worldwide events I expect gambling is secondary to that.....it was merely a week ago we had the London attacks and people are more downbeat, you can see it when out & about.

You're gonna have regular posters posting regularly. It's all very well to not ever contribute and then say negative things about the forum. There are many here that prop this place up and instill a bit of gallows humour or else we'd likely have even more repetitive threads!

I await a good thread about something other than negative slots rigging, but we can only go on what's put in the forum. Would be nice to see new members start threads without spamming the crap out of the forum too :cool:

But a slot trend has been noticed by many experienced gamblers, and if they can't share that at CM, where can they?

As for members I don't particularly like, there's only a handful. I don't wish to name & shame, but I feel I must:

*********

********

& ********

although ********** has pissed me off recently too :eek:

Is this like a game of Hangman and do we get prizes for filling in the blanks:D

Just can not work out if i fit into 2nd or 3rd place tho lol
 
As you all know I had my fair share of "tin foil hatting" on this forum although I am convinced that some of it was not down to "tin foil" but proven experiences. ;)

My conclusion as to why we are feeling the games have changed is the fact that we had an explosion of player numbers that are hitting the slots every day. At the same time, the last 2 - 3 years have seen an equal increase in games, providers and casinos. This is reducing significantly the chance to be one of the very few who are winning something substantial on any given slot.

On top, we have seen a huge increase in super high volatility games such as Bonanza, Jungle Spirit, pretty much all Yggdrasil / Red Tiger games, etc. Hitting something decent on these games can take months or might never happen as you need 1,000's of losers (of which probably 50% are getting a very poor RTP) to finance those few super high wins.

What has clearly changed though is the "addiction" capability by building in a lot more psychological aspects into the design of the games. This is the statement on the website of one game provider:

Our games deliver more profit because we deeply understand player psychology.

Our growing band of psychologists, mathematicians, graphic designers, software developers, audio engineers, gambling experts, QAs, account managers and secret magicians are entirely dedicated to continuously improving the player experience.

Note, "psychologists" are the first mentioned. And i am not talking just the near-miss avalanche we have now on all slots, the worst being Red Tiger where you need bonus symbols on 1, 3 and 5. Get the first two and you see 3, 4 or 5 bonus symbols passing on reel 5 and stopping just outside the window. But the more severe part in building in psychological aspects are the underlying subconscious items to which all mankind is susceptible to. Chase a bonus round, build up achievements, the right sound and visual effects, animate to chase losses, e.g. the slot on a slightly improving curve indicating something might happen soon (the famous 2 scatter teasers on the last 10 spins before bust out).

Whereas in the past game developers had mechanical reels or reel strips (early online games), the new generation is not bound by these restrictions. Game developers can choose to display every spin as they like as long as the random win combination is shown correctly. The rest is just the "psychological fanfare" to get players to hit that "spin" button again.

To top it all off, the game designers have launched with their latest slots heavy attacks on the young and most vulnerable part of the player community in what they call the "future" gamblers. Get them hooked as young as possible and you will have them as customers for the longest possible time.

I have all but lost interest in online gaming in the past few months (visible by my rather streaky appearance on CM). My cashback at VS used to be $50 - $200 weekly and is now down to $5 - $15. There are too many fish in the pond to get a chance for at least a decent play time, let alone to make it to a withdrawal. I had two big ones this year which kept my new budget limits in check, but boy oh boy...how quickly $1,000 can disappear on just $1- $2.50 is absolutely astonishing and remarkable.
 
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On DoA my stats a few weeks ago were:

spins - 20,424
Number of wins: 6,103
RTP: 29.88%


I have completed more spins since then, I think it was almost 28,000 with an RTP of 26%.

The rest of my stats were not great which is why I gave up depositing but I will use slot tracker when I return.

Thanks :)

Question: maybe by mistake you are logging in to ITALIAN casinos ?
this would explain many things about your (awful) numbers.
 
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Player A does 10,000 spins on Game X at $1 and gets back $9,500. (95% RTP)
Player B does 1,000 spins on Game X at $5 and gets back $4,000. (80% RTP)

Most people would say the RTP of Game X was ((9,500 + 4,000) / 15,000) * 100 = 90%, however this is not the case. The actual RTP of Game X is (95 + 80) / 2 = 87.5%.

:thumbsup: That Slots Tracker looks like a pretty cool (and time-intensive) project! So i hope you dont take it as an offense, if i question your math on the rtp%-example quoted above. Shouldnt it be more like:

((10000 * 0,95)+(1000 * 0,8)) / 11000 = 93,63%


Obv. thats assuming paytable/reel-layout/weighting dont change depending on betsize... And going only by how the gameplay "feels" to me more and more, this assumption is questionable at best... ;-) Could be selective perception / memory of course...

Same goes for the insane number of results best suited for the "Screenshots that suck"-thread i get on NETENT-slots since they switched over to HTML5... Only selective perception and their slots are behaving exactly as they did before HTML5? Or could it be that the payout on each spin is the same as before BUT the way we get presented that result is different now?

Wouldnt that be a really great (and very dirty) way of increasing profits? Keep the numbers the same but suck the (problem)gambler in with more of those "damn, so close to the big win"-moments?

I dont know the answers to all of this - and never really thought about reducing my play or quitting gambling... But looking at last 12 month / the 10 years before that -> my gambling-budget went down by at least 80%... To me its not about winning or losing - its about getting my moneys worth in entertainment. And i for sure didnt get that entertainment anymore... Well, its the casinos loss ;)
 
You told me you have tonnes of great hits on bonanza. Why not share them? Most people love to see wins and it makes the forum more pleasant. I guess what Im trying to say, why complain if you dont try and do your part to try and change the flow of things? The only time I really see you post is to call someone out on something. Why open these threads, the title is pretty clear what its about.

I think this forum is great fun btw and I absolutely love it and all the members here. Even you.

I suggest visiting the winner screenshots thread, the winning videos thread (some great wins and funny commentary) and the casino bar and grill thread. There are some really funny comments. Or you can follow goatwack around, hes usually pretty funny. Or even some of Barbara's foul mouthed rants are pretty entertaining.

I dont blame a single person who complains. The casino industry is changing right now. The slot providers are coming out with mostly high volatile games which people arent used to or expecting. Once people get used to it, things will subside a little because they will simply quit or just play older games.

Just my 11 cents.

As you all know I had my fair share of "tin foil hatting" on this forum although I am convinced that some of it was not down to "tin foil" but proven experiences. ;)

My conclusion as to why we are feeling the games have changed is the fact that we had an explosion of player numbers that are hitting the slots every day. At the same time, the last 2 - 3 years have seen a equal increase in games, providers and casinos. This is reducing significantly the chance to be one of the very few who are winning something substantial on any given slot.

On top, we have seen a huge increase in super high volatility games such as Bonanza, Jungle Spirit, pretty much all Yggdrasil / Red Tiger games, etc. Hitting something decent on these games can take months or might never happen as you need 1,000's of losers (of which probably 50% are getting a very poor RTP) to finance those few super high wins.

What has clearly changed though is the "addiction" capability by building in a lot more psychological aspects into the design of the games. This is the statement on the website of one game provider:



Note, "psychologists" are the first mentioned. And i am not talking just the near-miss avalanche we have now on all slots, the worst being Red Tiger where you need bonus symbols on 1, 3 and 5. Get the first two and you see 3, 4 or 5 bonus symbols passing on reel 5 and stopping just outside the window. But the more severe part in building in psychological aspects are the underlying subconscious items to which all mankind is susceptible to. Chase a bonus round, build up achievements, the right sound and visual effects, animate to chase losses, e.g. the slot on a slightly improving curve indicating something might happen soon (the famous 2 scatter teasers on the last 10 spins before bust out).

Whereas in the past game developers had mechanical reels or reel strips (early online games), the new generation is not bound by these restrictions. Game developers can choose to display every spin as they like as long as the random win combination is shown correctly. The rest is just the "psychological fanfare" to get players to hit that "spin" button again.

To top it all off, the game designers have launched with their latest slots heavy attacks on the young and most vulnerable part of the player community in what they call the "future" gamblers. Get them hooked as young as possible and you will have them as customers for the longest possible time.

I have all but lost interest in online gaming in the past few months (visible by my rather streaky appearance on CM). My cashback at VS used to be $50 - $200 weekly and is now down to $5 - $15. There are too many fish in the pond to get a chance for at least a decent play time, let alone to make it to a withdrawal. I had two big ones this year which kept my new budget limits in check, but boy oh boy...how quickly $1,000 can disappear on just $1- $2.50 is absolutely astonishing and remarkable.
The influx of games with a child like cartoon theme such as scruffy duck, copy cats and Hugo to name a few are a blatant attempt to target a younger audience. The fact more people in the uk are leaving playing the fobt in the betting shops and turning to online in there droves makes me wonder if that was the gambling worlds agenda from the outset.
Lets be honest in theory you could deposit ten grand a day online easily, that's not something you would hand over the counter in hard cash without questioning it in a bookmakers.
I'll not be drawn into the rigged debate, as nobody will ever agree either way on this.
But certain games that have officially changed like fruit warp, show that if a provider wants to change a games pay for the worst it's very easily done, as said fruit warp is a testament to that.
 
Is this like a game of Hangman and do we get prizes for filling in the blanks:D

Just can not work out if i fit into 2nd or 3rd place tho lol

Not you. Quite like ya :o:laugh:

Looks like this could be a very long game of Hangman. What have I done :cool:
 
Since bonus rounds are predetermined, why do slot providers think its okay to make well over half of the bonuses 5x? Like hello here. The games being pumped out take 300-800 spins to hit a bonus and the base game rtp set around 40-60%....

You want to pay me 5x most times in a bonus round then start making it so im hitting bonuses every 50-100 spins and raise the game rtp.

Its very easy to study how book of dead plays. Go watch a Canadian battle. 30 entries and 1-4 people usually have an rtp above 100%. The other 29-26 have rtps of 20-65%. Can you imagine how much of a cash cow book of dead, vikings go berzerk and bonanza are for casino's? I bet we would all vomit if we saw the numbers.

No - they quite simply are not....
 
Can it bee that they maybe know something more than us? I mean more and more country are suspending them. Norway. denmark now holland even sweden is going to do something like holland. They now they are on borrowed time and they just are taking their oppertunity to robb as nuch as they can.

Suspending what?
 
When i say tilt i never tilt like i dont have money for the rest of the month. I play onley what i afford to loose but this time i realeys its pointless. The best u can get off it that u are waggering your own money and loose. They are rigged 100% and yes they have memory. What casinos ans providers like trancmonkey says is just shit. I mean if they told us what we are seeing self ho would play? and if none playes the lamborghini aventador has no driver anymore

You're entitled to believe i'm speaking shit - although quite why i'd volunteer to come on here and speak shit is odd.... but hey ho...
So what exactly could i tell you to make you believe me then? Unless i say "it's all rigged", you won't believe me anyway...
As i've said before, i'd quite happily come to a CM meeting and show you (with an example) of how and why it's not rigged - i'd have to code the example, but i'd certainly try and do that to prove to you guys how these things work...
 
Its two things. One, providers are taking down popular addicting slots and lowering the rtp on them. Play n go did it so I dont know why others are so hell bent on defending that other providers would never do this. Others are doing it, they just arent announcing it like playngo did.

Secondly, slot providers making slots like the lottery now. A couple lucky people will get a big payout while everyone else will suffer. Rinse and repeat.

You have people saying it doesnt make sense for a provider to lower an rtp. They dont benefit. Well thats untrue. After speaking to a software provider when I was doing the VGB study he outright told me, that when contracts are negotiated and renegotiated the two top things that casino's will look for is traffic that slot is bringing and returns. If the traffic is high and the casino is making a killing that slot provider will make alot more money per contract then slot providers who are bringing in an average amount of both traffic and revenue.

No it's not - slot providers rarely WANT to lower the RTP of the games, because it makes it harder for use to make a good game mathematically when the RTP is lower. Lower RTP's are almost always driven by the operators... online is VERY lucky in that it has RTP's over 95% on nearly every game, and yet you all still complain! :(
 
Either way you look at it slotter is something has changed .if you have some veteran players in here saying something is a miss , then you really should listen & you say about informed posters i've been here a very long time & played more than a fair share & i still conclude that 100% the slots have been changed.

Im now under the conclusion that it is server bound & hence to why the results are wifffyyyyy , i'm not pointing out a casino but i'm pointing directly to the servers & providers who make the games & i believe that your play & stats are tracked , via a few methods this would make perfect sense to me , although trance monkey said they dont do this . if it's programmed to a percentage then i cannot be random.

Oh no - not this again ;)

Is tossing a coin random? Toss one 1000 times - when it lands on heads, eat a pea. When it lands on tails, eat a banana. I bet you eat just as many bananas as peas - 50% payout on the food there. So that's not random?
 
As far as the data goes there can be hundreds of variables sent back and fourth depending on how complex a game is. None of this data includes any personal information other than a player session ID which changes frequently. This can be said for all providers we have analysed.

The game that you see is just a display unit. When you press spin a set of data is sent to the server that includes your wager, your lines, your bet level (on some games), your round ID (a secure ID given to you when you authenticate / load the game) and some information about which game you are playing, country you reside in and the currency you are using. Some Casinos use a proxy in between this connection so your IP address would essentially be masked from the receiving server. The server receives this information and generates a set of random numbers for each element of the game.

These are then passed back to the game (display unit) and it does as instructed by the server.

If a provider or casino used outside variables such as IP addresses, account age or any other type of player controlled variable then they would open themselves up to huge manipulation. It wouldn't take long for someone to work out how to coin the system and rinse any casino. This would be extremely risky and in the long term no business with legs would use player information to manipulate future results when there is no need to whatsoever.

Each provider has to submit an audit of game play each quarter that includes a detailed analysis of play to the UKGC. These numbers are verified with casinos, payment processors and other related companies to guarantee a fair game.

The market has been changing in the past year. Flame Busters, Book of Dead, High Voltage, Bonanza, Jungle Spirit and a bunch of other popular new releases. Games are becoming increasingly more volatile which means a huge majority of the RTP usually ends up going to a handful of players. These are the games that people end up seeing videos of on YouTube and then chase themselves. The market is adjusting to what is getting more play time and that is very infrequent monster hits rather than a varied session.

Another big issue that we are currently working on within Slot Tracker is in defining what RTP actually is. Many players believe RTP is (MONEY_OUT / MONEY_IN) x 100. Whilst for your personal interest this is correct, this is not entirely true when it comes to displaying an accurate RTP figure for a game based on an aggregate of spins using different bet levels. Take this as an example:

Player A does 10,000 spins on Game X at $1 and gets back $9,500. (95% RTP)
Player B does 1,000 spins on Game X at $5 and gets back $4,000. (80% RTP)

Most people would say the RTP of Game X was ((9,500 + 4,000) / 15,000) * 100 = 90%, however this is not the case. The actual RTP of Game X is (95 + 80) / 2 = 87.5%.

Each spin is independent with a fixed probability. Therefore the correct way to work out RTP in the long term for a specific game is to do the (MONEY_OUT / MONEY_IN) x 100 math on every individual spin and then accumulate this figure and divide by the total number of spins. We call this figure SRP (Statistical Return to Player) and have been analysing it heavily.

In theory over enough time, with enough spins and all different bet levels the RTP and SRP figures SHOULD converge, but in the short term these figures can vary drastically and can very much impact your thoughts on a particular game, provider or casino.

We have now tracked over 3 million real money spins with Slot Tracker. I personally have over 110,000 spins tracked with an RTP of 91.35%. Nearly all of my play has been on games that advertise a 95-96% RTP. Do I think slots are rigged / changed / manipulated? No. Most of my play has been on high volatile games and these are natural curves that these games produce.

Our system is monitoring slots, providers and casinos all of the time and anything that we find suspicious we will let the community know about. We also plan to do some posts in the near future with some game analysis. To do this we need a massive amount of spins to guarantee we can perform meaningful tests.

- T

They still won't believe they aren't rigged ;)
 
I agree, and whilst I'm one of the guilty party, even I'm tiring of the rigged threads. It all comes down to individual experiences, if someone's RTP has been south of 50% for consecutive months they're going to think something is amiss.

New members may be new to these topics, so to the more experienced members it must seem like groundhog day. Basically those suspicious of foul play with slots will continue to berate them right up to when they win, it's always the way.

But please, let's slow down on the rigged threads. A lot of them could be merged, there's been at least four or five in the last month. I sick of repeating myself repeating myself :eek::cool:

How do you work our your RTP?
If you deposit £100 and play for 3 hours, and eventually lose the lot, your RTP isn't 0% - it will be a lot higher than that. YOUR personal RTP (your deposits vs withdrawals) might be very low, but the RTP of the games you play won't match it...
If you just plough everything you win back through the game, you'll always lose....
 
How do you work our your RTP?
If you deposit £100 and play for 3 hours, and eventually lose the lot, your RTP isn't 0% - it will be a lot higher than that. YOUR personal RTP (your deposits vs withdrawals) might be very low, but the RTP of the games you play won't match it...
If you just plough everything you win back through the game, you'll always lose....

It was a figurative example, not a literal one :cool: I know how RTP works....

But as stated, I'd love to get hold of that Slot Tracker wizardry. It would lay a lot of misgivings to rest :cool:
 
On DoA my stats a few weeks ago were:

spins - 20,424
Number of wins: 6,103
RTP: 29.88%


I have completed more spins since then, I think it was almost 28,000 with an RTP of 26%.

The rest of my stats were not great which is why I gave up depositing but I will use slot tracker when I return.

Thanks :)

That's really odd - according to your data, the number of wins you have had, divided by the number of spins you've had, would mean that every single win you had was an average of exactly 1x - or do you mean NUMBER OF WINS to be VALUE OF WINS? In which case, you played everything at £1? There is no way in 28,000 spins, every win you had was an average of 1x - you would have had, on average at least 140 features in that time (assuming the feature is around 1 in 200)

Not sure what your data is showing, or whether you've got confused (or i am)
 
No it's not - slot providers rarely WANT to lower the RTP of the games, because it makes it harder for use to make a good game mathematically when the RTP is lower. Lower RTP's are almost always driven by the operators... online is VERY lucky in that it has RTP's over 95% on nearly every game, and yet you all still complain! :(

Now now, don't brush us all with the same comb:)

There's a hand full of posters that are quite active, and often feel the same way about these subjects, who tend to seemingly set the tone in some threads: but there' s (or so i believe) a much greater part of the community, that feels completely different!

That said, complaining about non paying games and losses has always been, and i figure will also always be part of the game...
Interpreting information wrongly, and then adopting it into said theories, is also a huge part of forum life...luckily we have you and other great contributors with insider knowledge, and as such i hope you will keep providing info (and correcting some) but don't feel obliged to jump in on every wrong comment in too many threads, or you'll get worked up, or just too damn busy, which may result in you 'giving up the ghost' :p

That would be a shame
 
It was a figurative example, not a literal one :cool: I know how RTP works....

But as stated, I'd love to get hold of that Slot Tracker wizardry. It would lay a lot of misgivings to rest :cool:

It's great - the guys have done a great job... i've spoken to them on Skype at all times of day - not sure he ever sleeps!
 
Now now, don't brush us all with the same comb:)

There's a hand full of posters that are quite active, and often feel the same way about these subjects, who tend to seemingly set the tone in some threads: but there' s (or so i believe) a much greater part of the community, that feels completely different!

That said, complaining about non paying games and losses has always been, and i figure will also always be part of the game...
Interpreting information wrongly, and then adopting it into said theories, is also a huge part of forum life...luckily we have you and other great contributors with insider knowledge, and as such i hope you will keep providing info (and correcting some) but don't feel obliged to jump in on every wrong comment in too many threads, or you'll get worked up, or just too damn busy, which may result in you 'giving up the ghost' :p

That would be a shame

Indeed - my point was more about the fact that people complain online slots "rip them off" and yet have RTP's of 95%+
Imagine what these games feel like in Las Vegas with it's <90% slots...

Also, with regards to a previous point Harry_BKK made (i think) about the high volatility slots... Some of you probably already know this, but with high variance slots, we (the producers) have no choice but to give you some shit bonuses in order to be able to pay the 500x+ bonuses you crave.

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

These big wins eat RTP, and we have to carefully balance the frequency of them to try and avoid too many bad features.

Dunover moans about getting a lot of Bonus Guarantees on Rhino, but they have to have a proportion of those features to be able to pay the 1000x features...
According to Slot Tracker Community stats, the bonus frequency averages around 1 in 110 and pays around 46x as an average - given that they pay 10x every feature as a minimum, in order to be able to afford a 1000x win, you would have to have 27.8 bonus guarantee features before the game afford to allow you to win 1000x. And that assume you ONLY win 10x for those 27.8x features.

Now before you all jump on my words - i'm not saying it saves up to pay for the 1000x (we work in averages)
 
Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )
 
Yup, i know very well how those HV Games work, and believe pretty much all of them to be fair - but i also know it can seem to feel differently after countless beatings...that's where the complaining usually comes in:)

Been guilty of my own tin foil thoughts aplenty, so would never hold it against someone, but i also know it can get a bit much.

I also believe this slot tracker is a great development: there were a few Casino's already out there with various stats like that visible for players, i believe BetAT was one of them: i sure hope Tropicana will keep posting overall stats of combined user results on a regular basis! as a little gift to the community:)

Certainly speaks volumes...
 
That's really odd - according to your data, the number of wins you have had, divided by the number of spins you've had, would mean that every single win you had was an average of exactly 1x - or do you mean NUMBER OF WINS to be VALUE OF WINS? In which case, you played everything at £1? There is no way in 28,000 spins, every win you had was an average of 1x - you would have had, on average at least 140 features in that time (assuming the feature is around 1 in 200)

Not sure what your data is showing, or whether you've got confused (or i am)

I asked Videoslots for my stats as I knew it must be bad, at one stage I went 800 spins without a feature and that was when I said enough is enough.

I actually had 20, 424 spins in total on 18 May of which only 6,103 actually won anything, which gave me a return of 29.88%, so for every £100 played I got £29.88 back and it went downhill from there so I have just stopped depositing.
 
Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

Don't go anywhere buddy:) You've been here s long as i have, and always enjoyed your contributions: if you feel not taken seriously by some people, or something similar, please rethink, it's definitely not reason enough to leave the forum! Your even welcome with tinfoil hat on :p

I also think you interpreted the part you referred to, from trancemonkey's post, wrong: i am horrible at maths, so give him the chance to elaborate.
But one thing i know: even if the game couldn't dish it out before it took that ( which is not the case) that does not mean it would take it from you. And irregardless of who's playing, it will dish those wins out eventually :)

Stick around mate, would hate to see you go.
 
Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

I think you ignored my last sentence ;)

It doesn't matter WHEN it pays it, it still has to be able to afford it mathematically - when i use the term "afford" or "save" i'm not talking compensation, but statistics... the game can't "afford" to pay 1000x if it doesn't have 27 bonus guarantee features. Of course that could mean in terms of distribution 27*10X-1000X-27*10X-1000X or 1000X-3*10X-1000X-51*10X

I agree the whole maths thing is confusing and unless you work on these, it's very very easy to think that we're all a bunch of crooks and everything has gone to shit ;)
 
I asked Videoslots for my stats as I knew it must be bad, at one stage I went 800 spins without a feature and that was when I said enough is enough.

I actually had 20, 424 spins in total on 18 May of which only 6,103 actually won anything, which gave me a return of 29.88%, so for every £100 played I got £29.88 back and it went downhill from there so I have just stopped depositing.

Those are really odd stats though, because 6103/20424 = 29.88% ... which would mean every single win you had was on average exactly 1x - which i find remarkably unlikely. I'm not sure they've told you the right info there...
 
Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

Agree Mr J there :thumbsup:

Sadly for some I won't be departing the forum but I will be doing my best to stop out of the "Slots aren't what they used to be, don't play the same, rigged, fixed, doctored, twisted, compensated etc" threads as best I can, once this thread dies off!

Basically this will be an "argument" which goes around in circles forever and a day, neither side ever being to provide hard evidence so future postings on this subject will be futile and pointless :D
 
Weird. Then why when I hit a bonus if I have another tab up by the time I press start bonus does the bonus pay me before even one spin is done. Must be magic.

WMS games are more proof, close the bonus off at any point and it will restart and pay the same, even if you play it a week later, not like its "grabbing live server results"

See I didn't used the word "R*G**D" once :p

Now I am out of here to play some compensated Bonanza and source code altered DoA :)
 
So you Trancemonkey!! mean that it is totaly random when this happens.. Deposit 1000k euros playin lets say 4-8 euro spins. The player got all the time nearhit and teasers and when im down to let say 100eu i lower the bet to 1 euro, press spin and after 3-4 spins i suddenly get the bonus. This dos not just happend 1 time it happens so many times. Why does it never happens when i go from 1eu spinn to 5eu spin. And with suspend i mean that in Sweden as i understood there is going to be a licens system wich casinos have to have to opperate in sweden so no more alibaba rigged casino in sweden.
 
Weird. Then why when I hit a bonus if I have another tab up by the time I press start bonus does the bonus pay me before even one spin is done. Must be magic.

My guess is your playing blueprint games or one if the other (few) manufacturers that determine all the free spins at the moment you win them. I touched on this in my main thread. It's not determined before you get the bonus....
 
Agree Mr J there :thumbsup:

Sadly for some I won't be departing the forum but I will be doing my best to stop out of the "Slots aren't what they used to be, don't play the same, rigged, fixed, doctored, twisted, compensated etc" threads as best I can.

Basically this will be an "argument" which goes around in circles forever and a day, neither side ever being to provide hard evidence so future postings on this subject will be futile and pointless :D

I would beg to differ: it would be sad if you left, as would mr. J 's departure be..

Surely, slots have changed, but it's mostly psychological, graphical, and perhaps also mathwise - there are also new features, and more variations on older, well known features.

If there's any evidence regarding them now being rigged or paying less then they used to, it usually points to the other side though, and there's an answer to these moments, thoughts and feelings, that has been the same for many years: if you don't trust them, don't play them :p

So the best model for any discussion on a gambling forum, in terms of rigged/changed RTP's and whatnot, is following:

player comes in with tin foil, and questions: gets answers with mostly facts, from various fellow players and some insiders:

scenario A: player is is now soothed, and/or more knowledgeable, and resumes play happily
scenario B: player is still in doubt, and/or more knowledgeable, stops playing, or resumes play frustrated and madly!

:D


MINUS all the times we players were right, and found out some scam! It's as such always good to remain skeptical and ask your questions, just don't over do it with the 'ole rigged and scumbag Casino and provider comments, and all is well in Casinomeister land :p

That is of course not towards you Jono, my friend, but how i'd like to see things in general.
 
My guess is your playing blueprint games or one if the other (few) manufacturers that determine all the free spins at the moment you win them. I touched on this in my main thread. It's not determined before you get the bonus....

It happens with alot of the slots. Even microgaming. You hit a bonus and its already decided what you are being paid.
 
So you Trancemonkey!! mean that it is totaly random when this happens.. Deposit 1000k euros playin lets say 4-8 euro spins. The player got all the time nearhit and teasers and when im down to let say 100eu i lower the bet to 1 euro, press spin and after 3-4 spins i suddenly get the bonus. This dos not just happend 1 time it happens so many times. Why does it never happens when i go from 1eu spinn to 5eu spin. And with suspend i mean that in Sweden as i understood there is going to be a licens system wich casinos have to have to opperate in sweden so no more alibaba rigged casino in sweden.

Ahh yeah local licencing is a big thing... it cuts out unscrupulous casinos and as CM is testament to, they exist. I can only talk for the reputable ones.

With regards to lowering bets and getting a feature after lots of spins at a higher get... It's statistics. And it does happen the other way around... but I'll explain why it happens less...

If you've been playing at a high bet but not had a feature for a long time, whilst statistically every spin is independent and the chance of getting a feature on every spin is the same, at the same time, probability also dictates that the further over the average number if spins for a feature you Get, the more likely you are to get one. It's a weird juxtaposition. It's nothing to do with the value of the bet but more to do with statistical probability and the fact you've gone a lot of spins without a feature.

The reason is feels like it happens less the other way around is because most people raise bets after a big win and because big wins don't statistically happen close together very often it would feel like it was more likely to happen when lowering bet (after losing) than raising (after winning)
 
No it's not - slot providers rarely WANT to lower the RTP of the games, because it makes it harder for use to make a good game mathematically when the RTP is lower. Lower RTP's are almost always driven by the operators... online is VERY lucky in that it has RTP's over 95% on nearly every game, and yet you all still complain! :(

After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.
 
It happens with alot of the slots. Even microgaming. You hit a bonus and its already decided what you are being paid.

Again it depends how they have been programmed but what I've said still stands... it won't happen on NetEnt or WMS or GOT

If a game can disconnect during a set of free spins or a bonus then it won't do what you've said. If it can't then it will work as you say
 
After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.

But you didn't state why providers would want a lower RTP in your post... just about negotiations and how casinos want performing games.

Don't get me wrong... if casinos could have performing games at 80%, they would... luckily there is enough competition that means we don't
 
I would beg to differ: it would be sad if you left, as would mr. J 's departure be..

Surely, slots have changed, but it's mostly psychological, graphical, and perhaps also mathwise - there are also new features, and more variations on older, well known features.

If there's any evidence regarding them now being rigged or paying less then they used to, it usually points to the other side though, and there's an answer to these moments, thoughts and feelings, that has been the same for many years: if you don't trust them, don't play them :p

So the best model for any discussion on a gambling forum, in terms of rigged/changed RTP's and whatnot, is following:

player comes in with tin foil, and questions: gets answers with mostly facts, from various fellow players and some insiders:

scenario A: player is is now soothed, and/or more knowledgeable, and resumes play happily
scenario B: player is still in doubt, and/or more knowledgeable, stops playing, or resumes play frustrated and madly!

:D


MINUS all the times we players were right, and found out some scam! It's as such always good to remain skeptical and ask your questions, just don't over do it with the 'ole rigged and scumbag Casino and provider comments, and all is well in Casinomeister land :p

That is of course not towards you Jono, my friend, but how i'd like to see things in general.

I agree about the changes... Also psychology is a massive part of any business... not just slots. Why so you want an Audi and not a Skoda? Why drink Pepsi and not Coke? All of it is down to psychology in some shape or form. Every decision we make... there is no such thing as free will.
 
Again it depends how they have been programmed but what I've said still stands... it won't happen on NetEnt or WMS or GOT

If a game can disconnect during a set of free spins or a bonus then it won't do what you've said. If it can't then it will work as you say

Well I cant play those providers, so most slots for me may not be the same for you.

Even thunderkick is predetermined. Even in their base game. There has been many people who notice in the battles as a player hits spin, the balance increases before the reels spin.
 
But i think the betsiza had something to do with the payout when u got the bonus. I hade the bonus on Gozos quest on 50e spin i think at least 20 times.. Only 1 time i had a "good" win and that was 6300euros on 20 frefalls. the rest of them have been around 3000euros. But when i played in 10euros i had 800xbet 3 times. All this was 2014-2016. Im not saying they are rigged but i can offer my lefthand wich i use when i press spinnbuton thats something has changed. the time between bonusfetaure is so much longer and the small winns x30 has become a megabigwin!! So what i wonder when i get the bonus let say 10frefalls on gonzo! is not every spin random? on the bonus game. does the slot allready know how nuch it will pay after the 10frefalls. I dont understand in the basegame evry spin is random
but not in the bonusgame:)
 
After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.

Just renewing my passport now ;)
 

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