Robbed by robbers with a licens

[incrediblestuff]

No it's not - slot providers rarely WANT to lower the RTP of the games, because it makes it harder for use to make a good game mathematically when the RTP is lower. Lower RTP's are almost always driven by the operators... online is VERY lucky in that it has RTP's over 95% on nearly every game, and yet you all still complain!

Now now, don't brush us all with the same comb

There's a hand full of posters that are quite active, and often feel the same way about these subjects, who tend to seemingly set the tone in some threads: but there' s (or so i believe) a much greater part of the community, that feels completely different!

That said, complaining about non paying games and losses has always been, and i figure will also always be part of the game...
Interpreting information wrongly, and then adopting it into said theories, is also a huge part of forum life...luckily we have you and other great contributors with insider knowledge, and as such i hope you will keep providing info (and correcting some) but don't feel obliged to jump in on every wrong comment in too many threads, or you'll get worked up, or just too damn busy, which may result in you 'giving up the ghost'

That would be a shame

 

[trancemonkey]

It was a figurative example, not a literal one I know how RTP works....

But as stated, I'd love to get hold of that Slot Tracker wizardry. It would lay a lot of misgivings to rest

It's great - the guys have done a great job... i've spoken to them on Skype at all times of day - not sure he ever sleeps!

 

[trancemonkey]

Now now, don't brush us all with the same comb

There's a hand full of posters that are quite active, and often feel the same way about these subjects, who tend to seemingly set the tone in some threads: but there' s (or so i believe) a much greater part of the community, that feels completely different!

That said, complaining about non paying games and losses has always been, and i figure will also always be part of the game...
Interpreting information wrongly, and then adopting it into said theories, is also a huge part of forum life...luckily we have you and other great contributors with insider knowledge, and as such i hope you will keep providing info (and correcting some) but don't feel obliged to jump in on every wrong comment in too many threads, or you'll get worked up, or just too damn busy, which may result in you 'giving up the ghost'

That would be a shame

Indeed - my point was more about the fact that people complain online slots "rip them off" and yet have RTP's of 95%+
Imagine what these games feel like in Las Vegas with it's <90% slots...

Also, with regards to a previous point Harry_BKK made (i think) about the high volatility slots... Some of you probably already know this, but with high variance slots, we (the producers) have no choice but to give you some shit bonuses in order to be able to pay the 500x+ bonuses you crave.

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

These big wins eat RTP, and we have to carefully balance the frequency of them to try and avoid too many bad features.

Dunover moans about getting a lot of Bonus Guarantees on Rhino, but they have to have a proportion of those features to be able to pay the 1000x features...
According to Slot Tracker Community stats, the bonus frequency averages around 1 in 110 and pays around 46x as an average - given that they pay 10x every feature as a minimum, in order to be able to afford a 1000x win, you would have to have 27.8 bonus guarantee features before the game afford to allow you to win 1000x. And that assume you ONLY win 10x for those 27.8x features.

Now before you all jump on my words - i'm not saying it saves up to pay for the 1000x (we work in averages)

 

[aceking123]

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

 

[incrediblestuff]

Yup, i know very well how those HV Games work, and believe pretty much all of them to be fair - but i also know it can seem to feel differently after countless beatings...that's where the complaining usually comes in

Been guilty of my own tin foil thoughts aplenty, so would never hold it against someone, but i also know it can get a bit much.

I also believe this slot tracker is a great development: there were a few Casino's already out there with various stats like that visible for players, i believe BetAT was one of them: i sure hope Tropicana will keep posting overall stats of combined user results on a regular basis! as a little gift to the community

Certainly speaks volumes...

 

[greylady]

That's really odd - according to your data, the number of wins you have had, divided by the number of spins you've had, would mean that every single win you had was an average of exactly 1x - or do you mean NUMBER OF WINS to be VALUE OF WINS? In which case, you played everything at £1? There is no way in 28,000 spins, every win you had was an average of 1x - you would have had, on average at least 140 features in that time (assuming the feature is around 1 in 200)

Not sure what your data is showing, or whether you've got confused (or i am)

I asked Videoslots for my stats as I knew it must be bad, at one stage I went 800 spins without a feature and that was when I said enough is enough.

I actually had 20, 424 spins in total on 18 May of which only 6,103 actually won anything, which gave me a return of 29.88%, so for every £100 played I got £29.88 back and it went downhill from there so I have just stopped depositing.

 

[incrediblestuff]

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

Don't go anywhere buddy You've been here s long as i have, and always enjoyed your contributions: if you feel not taken seriously by some people, or something similar, please rethink, it's definitely not reason enough to leave the forum! Your even welcome with tinfoil hat on

I also think you interpreted the part you referred to, from trancemonkey's post, wrong: i am horrible at maths, so give him the chance to elaborate.
But one thing i know: even if the game couldn't dish it out before it took that ( which is not the case) that does not mean it would take it from you. And irregardless of who's playing, it will dish those wins out eventually

Stick around mate, would hate to see you go.

 

[trancemonkey]

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

I think you ignored my last sentence

It doesn't matter WHEN it pays it, it still has to be able to afford it mathematically - when i use the term "afford" or "save" i'm not talking compensation, but statistics... the game can't "afford" to pay 1000x if it doesn't have 27 bonus guarantee features. Of course that could mean in terms of distribution 27*10X-1000X-27*10X-1000X or 1000X-3*10X-1000X-51*10X

I agree the whole maths thing is confusing and unless you work on these, it's very very easy to think that we're all a bunch of crooks and everything has gone to shit

 

[trancemonkey]

I asked Videoslots for my stats as I knew it must be bad, at one stage I went 800 spins without a feature and that was when I said enough is enough.

I actually had 20, 424 spins in total on 18 May of which only 6,103 actually won anything, which gave me a return of 29.88%, so for every £100 played I got £29.88 back and it went downhill from there so I have just stopped depositing.

Those are really odd stats though, because 6103/20424 = 29.88% ... which would mean every single win you had was on average exactly 1x - which i find remarkably unlikely. I'm not sure they've told you the right info there...

 

[Jono777]

Bonanza can't pay 14000x bonuses without taking money first... the fact they have that win possible is amazing... but think about it...
Let's say that win happens 1 in 1,000,000 games (it will be a lot bigger than that...) - that would account for 1.4% of the total RTP. That means that unless you hit that win, you are playing a 95% game, instead of a 96.4% game until you hit it.

Well there you go you've said it yourself a game cannot pay this unless its taken it!

Again no foil hat , i'm aware you work for IGT so in fact it comes down to money )

Enough said from my point of view & on that its time for me to depart from the forum .

I shall gladly where my hat with pride )

Agree Mr J there

Sadly for some I won't be departing the forum but I will be doing my best to stop out of the "Slots aren't what they used to be, don't play the same, rigged, fixed, doctored, twisted, compensated etc" threads as best I can, once this thread dies off!

Basically this will be an "argument" which goes around in circles forever and a day, neither side ever being to provide hard evidence so future postings on this subject will be futile and pointless

 

[lockinlove]

No - they quite simply are not....

Weird. Then why when I hit a bonus if I have another tab up by the time I press start bonus does the bonus pay me before even one spin is done. Must be magic.

 

[Jono777]

Weird. Then why when I hit a bonus if I have another tab up by the time I press start bonus does the bonus pay me before even one spin is done. Must be magic.

WMS games are more proof, close the bonus off at any point and it will restart and pay the same, even if you play it a week later, not like its "grabbing live server results"

See I didn't used the word "R*G**D" once

Now I am out of here to play some compensated Bonanza and source code altered DoA

 

[Gonzo]

So you Trancemonkey!! mean that it is totaly random when this happens.. Deposit 1000k euros playin lets say 4-8 euro spins. The player got all the time nearhit and teasers and when im down to let say 100eu i lower the bet to 1 euro, press spin and after 3-4 spins i suddenly get the bonus. This dos not just happend 1 time it happens so many times. Why does it never happens when i go from 1eu spinn to 5eu spin. And with suspend i mean that in Sweden as i understood there is going to be a licens system wich casinos have to have to opperate in sweden so no more alibaba rigged casino in sweden.

 

[trancemonkey]

Weird. Then why when I hit a bonus if I have another tab up by the time I press start bonus does the bonus pay me before even one spin is done. Must be magic.

My guess is your playing blueprint games or one if the other (few) manufacturers that determine all the free spins at the moment you win them. I touched on this in my main thread. It's not determined before you get the bonus....

 

[Gonzo]

sorry not 1000k euros hehe i was thinking on swedish krona. I mean 1k euro

 

[incrediblestuff]

Agree Mr J there

Sadly for some I won't be departing the forum but I will be doing my best to stop out of the "Slots aren't what they used to be, don't play the same, rigged, fixed, doctored, twisted, compensated etc" threads as best I can.

Basically this will be an "argument" which goes around in circles forever and a day, neither side ever being to provide hard evidence so future postings on this subject will be futile and pointless

I would beg to differ: it would be sad if you left, as would mr. J 's departure be..

Surely, slots have changed, but it's mostly psychological, graphical, and perhaps also mathwise - there are also new features, and more variations on older, well known features.

If there's any evidence regarding them now being rigged or paying less then they used to, it usually points to the other side though, and there's an answer to these moments, thoughts and feelings, that has been the same for many years: if you don't trust them, don't play them

So the best model for any discussion on a gambling forum, in terms of rigged/changed RTP's and whatnot, is following:

player comes in with tin foil, and questions: gets answers with mostly facts, from various fellow players and some insiders:

scenario A: player is is now soothed, and/or more knowledgeable, and resumes play happily
scenario B: player is still in doubt, and/or more knowledgeable, stops playing, or resumes play frustrated and madly!




MINUS all the times we players were right, and found out some scam! It's as such always good to remain skeptical and ask your questions, just don't over do it with the 'ole rigged and scumbag Casino and provider comments, and all is well in Casinomeister land

That is of course not towards you Jono, my friend, but how i'd like to see things in general.

 

[lockinlove]

My guess is your playing blueprint games or one if the other (few) manufacturers that determine all the free spins at the moment you win them. I touched on this in my main thread. It's not determined before you get the bonus....

It happens with alot of the slots. Even microgaming. You hit a bonus and its already decided what you are being paid.

 

[trancemonkey]

So you Trancemonkey!! mean that it is totaly random when this happens.. Deposit 1000k euros playin lets say 4-8 euro spins. The player got all the time nearhit and teasers and when im down to let say 100eu i lower the bet to 1 euro, press spin and after 3-4 spins i suddenly get the bonus. This dos not just happend 1 time it happens so many times. Why does it never happens when i go from 1eu spinn to 5eu spin. And with suspend i mean that in Sweden as i understood there is going to be a licens system wich casinos have to have to opperate in sweden so no more alibaba rigged casino in sweden.

Ahh yeah local licencing is a big thing... it cuts out unscrupulous casinos and as CM is testament to, they exist. I can only talk for the reputable ones.

With regards to lowering bets and getting a feature after lots of spins at a higher get... It's statistics. And it does happen the other way around... but I'll explain why it happens less...

If you've been playing at a high bet but not had a feature for a long time, whilst statistically every spin is independent and the chance of getting a feature on every spin is the same, at the same time, probability also dictates that the further over the average number if spins for a feature you Get, the more likely you are to get one. It's a weird juxtaposition. It's nothing to do with the value of the bet but more to do with statistical probability and the fact you've gone a lot of spins without a feature.

The reason is feels like it happens less the other way around is because most people raise bets after a big win and because big wins don't statistically happen close together very often it would feel like it was more likely to happen when lowering bet (after losing) than raising (after winning)

 

[lockinlove]

No it's not - slot providers rarely WANT to lower the RTP of the games, because it makes it harder for use to make a good game mathematically when the RTP is lower. Lower RTP's are almost always driven by the operators... online is VERY lucky in that it has RTP's over 95% on nearly every game, and yet you all still complain!

After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.

 

[trancemonkey]

It happens with alot of the slots. Even microgaming. You hit a bonus and its already decided what you are being paid.

Again it depends how they have been programmed but what I've said still stands... it won't happen on NetEnt or WMS or GOT

If a game can disconnect during a set of free spins or a bonus then it won't do what you've said. If it can't then it will work as you say

 

[trancemonkey]

After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.

But you didn't state why providers would want a lower RTP in your post... just about negotiations and how casinos want performing games.

Don't get me wrong... if casinos could have performing games at 80%, they would... luckily there is enough competition that means we don't

 

[trancemonkey]

I would beg to differ: it would be sad if you left, as would mr. J 's departure be..

Surely, slots have changed, but it's mostly psychological, graphical, and perhaps also mathwise - there are also new features, and more variations on older, well known features.

If there's any evidence regarding them now being rigged or paying less then they used to, it usually points to the other side though, and there's an answer to these moments, thoughts and feelings, that has been the same for many years: if you don't trust them, don't play them

So the best model for any discussion on a gambling forum, in terms of rigged/changed RTP's and whatnot, is following:

player comes in with tin foil, and questions: gets answers with mostly facts, from various fellow players and some insiders:

scenario A: player is is now soothed, and/or more knowledgeable, and resumes play happily
scenario B: player is still in doubt, and/or more knowledgeable, stops playing, or resumes play frustrated and madly!




MINUS all the times we players were right, and found out some scam! It's as such always good to remain skeptical and ask your questions, just don't over do it with the 'ole rigged and scumbag Casino and provider comments, and all is well in Casinomeister land

That is of course not towards you Jono, my friend, but how i'd like to see things in general.

I agree about the changes... Also psychology is a massive part of any business... not just slots. Why so you want an Audi and not a Skoda? Why drink Pepsi and not Coke? All of it is down to psychology in some shape or form. Every decision we make... there is no such thing as free will.

 

[lockinlove]

Again it depends how they have been programmed but what I've said still stands... it won't happen on NetEnt or WMS or GOT

If a game can disconnect during a set of free spins or a bonus then it won't do what you've said. If it can't then it will work as you say

Well I cant play those providers, so most slots for me may not be the same for you.

Even thunderkick is predetermined. Even in their base game. There has been many people who notice in the battles as a player hits spin, the balance increases before the reels spin.

 

[Gonzo]

But i think the betsiza had something to do with the payout when u got the bonus. I hade the bonus on Gozos quest on 50e spin i think at least 20 times.. Only 1 time i had a "good" win and that was 6300euros on 20 frefalls. the rest of them have been around 3000euros. But when i played in 10euros i had 800xbet 3 times. All this was 2014-2016. Im not saying they are rigged but i can offer my lefthand wich i use when i press spinnbuton thats something has changed. the time between bonusfetaure is so much longer and the small winns x30 has become a megabigwin!! So what i wonder when i get the bonus let say 10frefalls on gonzo! is not every spin random? on the bonus game. does the slot allready know how nuch it will pay after the 10frefalls. I dont understand in the basegame evry spin is random
but not in the bonusgame

 

[Jono777]

After speaking to a slot provider and a casino about it, I feel confident in my thoughts.

And no we arent lucky. They are lucky we choose them. And its called competition unless online casino's are going to start sending me free drinks and a fun atmosphere to my door.

Just renewing my passport now