Rizk Source of Wealth Bullshit!

[Campino]

The problem starts with UKGC:

"
3. How on earth can they know if someone is a problem gambler from their income? The requested information is mostly useless and is certainly a deep violation of privacy.

SoF does show a lot, If people don't supply wage slips they ask for bank statements, Which would show payday loans/Benefits income etc. If they're a high spender its a huge RG concern when that would come up.

 

[Deeplay]

Right alll I was saying about the £10 deposit is that the system allowed me to Deposit that after withdraws were pending and the request appeared on my account to fill out SOW request.

I had not filled this out at the time of deposit. I have now filled this out and have sent limited documentation which will either be enough or it wont. I really dont know. This was a request linked directly to SOW see the email I got below :

And its not actually called Statement of Wealth but rather "
"Source of Income & Supporting Documents Request"

Email from Rizk ::

Dear XXXX XXXXX,



We hope this e-mail finds you well, and that you’re enjoying your gaming experience with Rizk.





As we are a fully licenced and responsible casino operator, we are required to comply with certain regulatory requirements, as per our obligation to both EU and national requirements.

In order to comply with the new European Union 4th Directive on anti-money laundering, we are required to collect specific information from our customers to ensure that gambling remains safe and clean, and that the information we hold is completely accurate.



Kindly log into your account / Identification and choose an option/s that is in line with your SOURCE/S OF INCOME. Below please find an example of the options that you will find listed on site when you’re filling in your source/s of income/s



· Salary together with your occupation & yearly income

· Savings

· Gift

· Inheritance

· Investment

· Insurance

· Other (need to be specific)



Also note that the stated Source of Income needs to be proved by submitting your SUPPORTING DOCUMENTATION (a document/s that’s in line with the source of income/s that you chose) as listed below.



· Proof of earning e.g. a Payslip / Director Remuneration / Dividends / Pensions

· Bank or Savings Account statements showing consistent incoming values from identifiable source(s)

· A trust deed clearly showing a consistent entitlement of funds

· Dated proof and details of an award, gift or payment made to you

· Any other information or evidence that can support your level of spend with us

The document you provide from the above list must be consistent with your source of income. By way of example, this means that if the deposited funds with our site arise from employment income, then we will need to receive proof of earnings (ex: a copy of your Payslip / Director Remuneration / Dividends / Pensions). In the event that your funds are generated through other means, the documentation provided must be in accordance with your particular situation.

We understand that the documents being provided are of a sensitive and confidential nature and wish to reassure you that appropriate organisational and security measures have been taken by the company to ensure the security, integrity and confidentiality of the information you make available to us.

No withdrawals will be processed until we receive the requested source of income and supporting documentation. If the requested documentation has not been sent within a five day time frame, your account will be suspended. The requested documents are to be sent to teamops @ rizk.com



Should you require further information, do not hesitate to contact us.



Kindest regards,



Albert.

Compliance & Risk Analyst

=== End Email ===

 

[colinsunderland]

What the UKGC say is

2.31 Where a customer is assessed as presenting higher risk, additional information in respect of that customer should be collected. This will help the casino operator judge whether the higher risk that the customer is perceived to present is likely to materialise, and provide grounds for proportionate and recorded decisions. Such additional information should include an understanding of where the customer’s funds and wealth have come from. While the Commission recognises that some relationships with customers will be transient or temporary in nature, casino operators still need to give consideration to this issue.

So you have been assessed as a higher risk.

It also states

7.33 Any personal data obtained by casino operators for the purposes of the Regulations may only be processed for the purposes of preventing money laundering and terrorist financing.127

7.34 Personal data should not be used for any other purpose unless:
• use of the data is permitted by or under any law other than the Regulations, or
• the casino operator has obtained the agreement of the subject of the data to the proposed use of the data.128

but Rizk ignore that and use it for other purposes too.
I've asked which other law they are relying on to do this, but am still waiting for a reply.

I wouldn't trust them to keep the information to themselves either, MTSecureTrade seem to have been subject to a data leak through a third party, which they failed to inform their customers about.

 

[mack341]

I 'm a bit of a newbie but wondered If your deposits are made using your own bank debit card, can money laundering ever be used as the reason for a source of wealth request?

I mainly play slot games at the bookmaker sites, coral etc.. and to date never received one of these requests, it does raise eyebrows that these checks are being only done on withdrawal rather than deposit.

I think if these requests become routine at places like william hill for low rollers like myself or people who like to bet a few quid on the horses and footie online, they are going to lose a fair number of legitimate customers, normal people don't want to be faffing around scanning their bank statements and sending them to all and sundry.

 

[Deeplay]

What the UKGC say is



I wouldn't trust them to keep the information to themselves either, MTSecureTrade seem to have been subject to a data leak through a third party, which they failed to inform their customers about.

Well of course I will wait to hear what the rep has to say, as Bryan has pointed out ... but the above dont fill me with confidence. Its insane because to get my Paypal business account and the levels allowed trading wise i have already had to go though
numerous leaps and verifactions ... its different for accounts that do 100k plus per year which we do across more than one business account. But to prove source of income would mean disclosing names addresses and other information of my own clients who use our services which im never gonna do. I just hope the document I sent is enough and this one can be put to bed.

 

[theapple]

its a pile of bull nothing else.

just like everything else since online casinos started operating, its all done on cashouts and as long as they care you could deposit $40000 from your friends bank account, while being in NASA space mission. its all good. but if you try to cashout $40 from your 40k deposit, you are in a big trouble

it makes perfect sense though, as casinos dont do this without a reason either. They simply want to protect you, your friends and family and everyone else you know, by only letting you deposit and not cashout. cashing out is dangerous you know.

 

[goatwack]

its a pile of bull nothing else.

just like everything else since online casinos started operating, its all done on cashouts and as long as they care you could deposit $40000 from your friends bank account, while being in NASA space mission. its all good. but if you try to cashout $40 from your 40k deposit, you are in a big trouble

it makes perfect sense though, as casinos dont do this without a reason either. They simply want to protect you, your friends and family and everyone else you know, by only letting you deposit and not cashout. cashing out is dangerous you know.

40 from a 40K deposit? Only when playing Bonanza

 

[nikantw]

SoF does show a lot, If people don't supply wage slips they ask for bank statements, Which would show payday loans/Benefits income etc. If they're a high spender its a huge RG concern when that would come up.

Other than cases where income < deposits it means nothing. Not without detailed expenses list! Even then, all that huge violation of privacy will prove what?
What percentage of spare income can be deposited? Should the player continue sending detailed income and spending lists every month to every casino?

It is impractical, pointless and stupid violation of privacy. In extreme cases, huge red flags, then ok, but only then.
You don't protect people this way. You protect them with information, high RTP and the tools to manage their balance best way possible.

 

[goatwack]

Well this is getting out of hand isn't it. Casinos just want to be 'seen' to do the right thing. They didn't care if half the population were hardened gamblers as long as they continued playing at their casino.

Players already had responsibility tools before, now it appears casinos can cherry pick what customers they want to retain as well. What better way to avoid hefty fines and void genuine players' lucky winnings.

They're already halfway to determining who's 'allowed' to gamble and who isn't. These information requests are sketchy at best, not to mention unethical.

 

[goatwack]

I 'm a bit of a newbie but wondered If your deposits are made using your own bank debit card, can money laundering ever be used as the reason for a source of wealth request?

I mainly play slot games at the bookmaker sites, coral etc.. and to date never received one of these requests, it does raise eyebrows that these checks are being only done on withdrawal rather than deposit.

I think if these requests become routine at places like william hill for low rollers like myself or people who like to bet a few quid on the horses and footie online, they are going to lose a fair number of legitimate customers, normal people don't want to be faffing around scanning their bank statements and sending them to all and sundry.

You'd think not, as just having it would have required some form of credit checks? I know that bookies were always a tad more carefree with their payments, and e- wallets were nailed on verification, as it links to an already checked debit card.

With bookies getting fined now though, nothing is set in stone. You're just as likely to have to disprove you're not a money launderer. Because it is 'guilty before proven innocent' these days

 

[mack341]

You'd think not, as just having it would have required some form of credit checks? I know that bookies were always a tad more carefree with their payments, and e- wallets were nailed on verification, as it links to an already checked debit card.

With bookies getting fined now though, nothing is set in stone. You're just as likely to have to disprove you're not a money launderer. Because it is 'guilty before proven innocent' these days

On a side point, I wonder if the ukgc have a rough estimate for how many money launderers there are in the uk or how much money is getting laundered through gambling? Then as each year passes, with all these new checks in place, we should see this figure drop.

Also, why don't the ukgc produce a standard letter for a SOW request with their logo stamped on it, or in fact the casino could refer each case to them to investigate, I would rather send a copy of my bank statement to UKGC than to a bookmaker.

 

[The Dude]

On a side point, I wonder if the ukgc have a rough estimate for how many money launderers there are in the uk or how much money is getting laundered through gambling? Then as each year passes, with all these new checks in place, we should see this figure drop.

Also, why don't the ukgc produce a standard letter for a SOW request with their logo stamped on it, or in fact the casino could refer each case to them to investigate, I would rather send a copy of my bank statement to UKGC than to a bookmaker.

In my opinion, if the government is going to demand these sorts of intrusive rules, then it's a job for the government to take control of this. UK players should be providing the UKGC copies of their tax returns etc. to show their wealth, and from that point be issued a "UK Cyber Punters" badge that they can submit to any casino that they sign up at. This way when the player starts laundering their money there - all fingers can point to the UKGC for allowing this to happen.

But as we have seen in the past, the UKGC is good at dishing out rules, but they are not concerned about how these terms are implemented. They will defer players elsewhere when they seek help.

 

[brianmon]

On another side point. I wonder how many casinos are set up specifically to launder money, NOT that I'm implicating Rizk in any way.
But maybe part of these new AML laws are to expose those casinos. Where it's not the customers who are laundering, but the casino themselves

 

[The Dude]

On another side point. I wonder how many casinos are set up specifically to launder money, NOT that I'm implicating Rizk in any way.
But maybe part of these new AML laws are to expose those casinos. Where it's not the customers who are laundering, but the casino themselves

I would guess some smalller rogue operations which may not be eligible for UKGC licensing. There are enough hoops to jump through I am sure to eliminate that there. But worldwide, there are loads of them I am sure. Mafia owned, etc. I think just recently Malta booted some Italian owned ones from their licensing arm.

 

[Deeplay]

Anyway just heard from CapN Rizk he will look at it later, he has been out of the office so no probs will wait to see what he finds out. I really dont think for a minute this is Rizk trying to use this for a no pay. So its not about a concern over my funds i know no matter what they are safe. But it is the implementation by Rizk of this requirement which is very shoddy at the moment to say the least.

 

[colinsunderland]

Anyway just heard from CapN Rizk he will look at it later, he has been out of the office so no probs will wait to see what he finds out. I really dont think for a minute this is Rizk trying to use this for a no pay. So its not about a concern over my funds i know no matter what they are safe. But it is the implementation by Rizk of this requirement which is very shoddy at the moment to say the least.

Thing is, you shouldn't need to speak to a rep about things like this, how many other customers have been denied their winnings for the same thing, who aren't members of a forum.
I actually quoted GIG's affiliate term to Captain Rizk, that prevents me from sharing my income from them with any casino, and as my whole income is affiliate based, therefore cannot do this, but wasn't replied to.

In my opinion, if the government is going to demand these sorts of intrusive rules, then it's a job for the government to take control of this. UK players should be providing the UKGC copies of their tax returns etc. to show their wealth, and from that point be issued a "UK Cyber Punters" badge that they can submit to any casino that they sign up at. This way when the player starts laundering their money there - all fingers can point to the UKGC for allowing this to happen.

But as we have seen in the past, the UKGC is good at dishing out rules, but they are not concerned about how these terms are implemented. They will defer players elsewhere when they seek help.

I completely agree, the UKGC should (and not just with this) give clear instructions on things, rather then the fuzzy guidance they give at the moment.

Thing is, if the funds are returned to the same account, which they are with Rizk, it pretty much eliminates money laundering, which most people think this is about. It isn't, doing this is actually to prevent criminals using stolen money to play with.

 

[Captain Rizk]

Hey guys, i will go through the whole thread in detail later today as I am travelling. I am getting more detail from Deeplay and will look into it

 

[SpinUk]

In my opinion, if the government is going to demand these sorts of intrusive rules, then it's a job for the government to take control of this. UK players should be providing the UKGC copies of their tax returns etc. to show their wealth, and from that point be issued a "UK Cyber Punters" badge that they can submit to any casino that they sign up at. This way when the player starts laundering their money there - all fingers can point to the UKGC for allowing this to happen.

But as we have seen in the past, the UKGC is good at dishing out rules, but they are not concerned about how these terms are implemented. They will defer players elsewhere when they seek help.

I’ve said it before, this is nothing to do with responsible gambling and everything to do with giving UK Customs and Excise a free bone to pick at.

 

[Captain Rizk]

hi all - we are checking this as we speak and i will get back to you.

We know that the system as it stands is inherently floored and i personally hate the fact that this happens on withdrawals and we will be releasing a new version of the SoW system that deals with this very differently and will effectively block all play win, lose or draw when the SoW questionnaire is triggered.

@colinsunderland Yep, i didnt reply to you regarding your point about affiliate income, terms and conditions etc because your point was perfectly valid and i genuinely have no answer to that one.

Hands up, not sure what to say other than we know that this system is not perfect and we are trying to make it as easy and flexible as possible but completely understand your frustrations

 

[goatwack]

hi all - we are checking this as we speak and i will get back to you.

We know that the system as it stands is inherently floored and i personally hate the fact that this happens on withdrawals and we will be releasing a new version of the SoW system that deals with this very differently and will effectively block all play win, lose or draw when the SoW questionnaire is triggered.

@colinsunderland Yep, i didnt reply to you regarding your point about affiliate income, terms and conditions etc because your point was perfectly valid and i genuinely have no answer to that one.

Hands up, not sure what to say other than we know that this system is not perfect and we are trying to make it as easy and flexible as possible but completely understand your frustrations

Shows what a pickle the UKGC has left you and other casinos in. Doesn't matter the methods used as long as the result is roughly the same......

Far easier for them to have given you some clear, definitive guidelines. Going by yours & others' SoW requests it seems none of you truly know how to approach this properly, and so 'most' opt for overkill with ridiculously intrusive demands.

Instead us all confusing one another perhaps casinos ought to act in tandem and press the UKGC to get off their arses and do their jobs properly. This lazy delegation of theirs is absolving them of any responsibility whilst giving them all the credit

 

[DANB9191]

What players have to go through just to have a little fun with their own money Don't know if it's just me ? But it feels like the past two years have been nothing but weekly updates on T&C's that will only ruin your chances in winning.

It's very off-putting... More off-putting that they leave their stamp all over your credit report and want to know your full financial history

Only thing left is my underpants Want them too ?!

 

[goatwack]

What players have to go through just to have a little fun with their own money Don't know if it's just me ? But it feels like the past two years have been nothing but weekly updates on T&C's that will only ruin your chances in winning.

It's very off-putting... More off-putting that they leave their stamp all over your credit report and want to know your full financial history

Only thing left is my underpants Want them too ?!

It'd be more of a SoS for casinos, not sure they require that information again. No one needs to know the Source of Skids, trust me

 

[DANB9191]

It'd be more of a SoS for casinos, not sure they require that information again. No one needs to know the Source of Skids, trust me

Had my scanner out and everything !! Ahh well, Maybe in a future T&C's update ?

 

[colinsunderland]

hi all - we are checking this as we speak and i will get back to you.

We know that the system as it stands is inherently floored and i personally hate the fact that this happens on withdrawals and we will be releasing a new version of the SoW system that deals with this very differently and will effectively block all play win, lose or draw when the SoW questionnaire is triggered.

@colinsunderland Yep, i didnt reply to you regarding your point about affiliate income, terms and conditions etc because your point was perfectly valid and i genuinely have no answer to that one.

Hands up, not sure what to say other than we know that this system is not perfect and we are trying to make it as easy and flexible as possible but completely understand your frustrations

Thank you for being honest about that, I would much rather people just said 'I don't know' than make things up (like other reps have done).
Did you every get an answer from your legal team about using the AML documents for RG issues?

 

[Chipkin9]

Shows what a pickle the UKGC has left you and other casinos in. Doesn't matter the methods used as long as the result is roughly the same......

Far easier for them to have given you some clear, definitive guidelines. Going by yours & others' SoW requests it seems none of you truly know how to approach this properly, and so 'most' opt for overkill with ridiculously intrusive demands.

Instead us all confusing one another perhaps casinos ought to act in tandem and press the UKGC to get off their arses and do their jobs properly. This lazy delegation of theirs is absolving them of any responsibility whilst giving them all the credit

Yea sure the UKGC require casino's to carry out this proceedure...but let's not let that get the Casino's who ask for SoW off the hook.

The whole point of SoW is to prevent money laundering & criminal proceeds being funnelled and should only be carried out when and only when ML is suspected. Casino's are carrying out this SoW on a whim.

If this SoW was asked of me I would be completely insulted and close my account as it insinuates by default that the casino do not trust where my money came from and think it may be from illegal activities on my part.

The casino are not obligated to ask for SoW documents unless ML is suspected and that's what is pissing players off.

I am certain Rizk know fine well. They don't need any finer instructions. Just another method for them to delay pay and inconvenience the player. Been there with ID Documents at nearly all the MT sites; they do love a good old wind up that lot.