Q&A for Casino Club and "Real Player" concerning the confiscations of winnings

Now that is very interesting.
If this is provable I think it could help your case.

Your argument would be that if you had found a way to defraud or otherwise gain an advantage over a Boss media Casino then why would you perpetuate that behaviour at just One Casino when the natural and obvious thing to do would be to copy the process at other Casinos thus increasing your profit and decreasing the likelihood of detection.

That to me is quite a powerful argument as it would show that much of Casino Clubs claims are counterintuitive unless they have very strong evidence that proves otherwise.

I agree. It would be hard to show, though if the player used a web wallet such as Neteller, the logs from there would be some evidence.

I also find the fact that he played the blackjack sidebet game at 1 main and 75 sidebet, even though the sidebet only paid 98% (much less than the main game) to be a factor pointing towards him being a genuine gambler.
 
I would like to answers some questions as best I can:

What happened after 3 August?

I dont have a moneybookers or neteller account. I paid in by bank transfer and paysafecard. I did not make a request for the money to be paid out, but I was planning to do so. I enquired with WebDollar as to whether the winnings could be transferred to my bank account and if there would be any problems due to the level of the amount. CC (the VIP manager, Ms Weiss) encouraged me on the telephone to continue playing on the grounds that there are still other jackpots which I can win on CC. There was only one email from 17 August in which a copy of my personal ID card was requested. I scanned in my personal ID card and sent it to CC by email. I received confirmation by email that the copy was received. On the same day I noticed that my account was blocked. I was told by telephone (support) that it is a security check and I dont need to worry about the money. Later this became your account is remaining closed and nobody can tell me why.
There was no official statement stating your winnings are not going to be paid out. I could have made an additional thousand phone calls, but that wouldnt have changed anything. For me it was clear: there is no money.

@thelawnet
In my initial post on the German forum I wrote Sie sind bei mir an der falschen Adresse. This is a German expression and simply means I cant do anything for you. It appears that you directly translated the sentence which resulted in a misunderstanding. It has nothing to do with an incorrect residential address.

continuation

As announced today, CC will not release any evidence in this forum. Based upon this statement, I have decided not to disclose any further details. I also cannot make any comments on other persons or players. These games (e.g. video poker) can only be played alone. I will make a statement on the current CC statement at a later date.
 
I would like to answers some questions as best I can:

What happened after 3 August?

I dont have a moneybookers or neteller account. I paid in by bank transfer and paysafecard. I did not make a request for the money to be paid out, but I was planning to do so. I enquired with WebDollar as to whether the winnings could be transferred to my bank account and if there would be any problems due to the level of the amount. CC (the VIP manager, Ms Weiss) encouraged me on the telephone to continue playing on the grounds that there are still other jackpots which I can win on CC.

This makes CC's claims of fraud sound less credible. Why would they tell him to lose the money on other jackpots if they were genuinely monitoring him?

And with the money coming via bank transfer from his own account, it's hard to see how any alter egos could be involved.
 
CC (the VIP manager, Ms Weiss) encouraged me on the telephone to continue playing on the grounds that there are still other jackpots which I can win on CC.

Lol at "please do not withdraw so that you can lose it all back to us". Could they be any more transparent?
 
Realplayer is going about this in a very professional way.

If he did everything Casino Club accused him of, I don't think this scenario would have occurred. More likely, he would have responded to every question without thought, perhaps in an attempt to win us over, and also to defame the casino. We've seen this happen plenty of times in the past.

I also admire that he doesn't seem put off by the potential legal fees Casino Club will impose on him, should he be unsuccessful. In my opinion, if he turns out to be a 'fraud' then these fees are justified. However, I don't think it would be fair for him to pay these if the only 'illegal' activity he partaked in was using a bot.

But with Casino Club seemingly conducting investigations, gathering reports and using solicitors, they too must be pretty confident in their approach. I think the one thing we can be certain of is this is going to end rather badly for one of the parties. Guessing at which one, however, is beyond me.
 
I would guess it will end badly for the player. I think the "judge" has more incentive to side with the people paying them. Just my opinion but I dont like the smell of this at all.
 
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Letter of the CC Lawyer

There are many more questions as you are all aware, some quite delusional, like the supposed claim by Casino Club that the players BOT has predictive powers, well allow me to refrain from answer such ridiculous claims as we are not going to be dragged into a situation in which a respected and long-standing Online Casino such as Casino Club will have to comply with every whim within an online forum debate.
Casino Club
letter of the CC lawyer, read here:
"In particular the logarithm of the executed stakes and the handling of the cards confirm the suspicion that you used software to calculate statistical predictions on the possible events of the game".

or here:
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Am i the only one thinking this is part 2 of https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/rtgs-caribbean-21-lie.3458/ (this time without the bots or again without bots.... I dunno, I'm all confused now ;) )

If there is a bot involved or not, its impossible for me to say, as I have no proof. Has Realplayer lied once? sounds like no. Either he has a very good alibi everytime, or he is not talking porkies.

Facts seem to be, CC have claimed that he recieved the docs, and he claimed he had, but at a different date, and interestingly no one has commented about that. CC claim he used a bot and if all transelations are correct, then thats absolute nonsense, as I find it hard to believe there is a software on this planet that cas read the future. The wizard has bet 20K on this, and would be prepared to pay it if anyone has any program to guarentee an outcome.

CC have claimed that other accounts have joned up together to play BJ and and take advantage of the bonus, however it strange it took them so long to close accounts, if the player had 30K in his account.

From the facts I have seen, which I understand CC are bnot prepared to disclose much,m however facts which are on the table seem to be pointing in one direction.
 
from the CC lawyer's letter:
Because the winnings from the aforementioned actions were used for further various games, your entire gaming account data, your nickname and your password have been deleted. An entitlement to the originally stated sum on your gaming account does not exist.

wow, i am not sure if i understand this correctly but are they (CC) allowed to just wipe out all the players data including transactions history and play logs without even archiving it? :what:
 
I think if realplayer doesnt have a 2nd account here they owe him the money. Realplayer, do you have a 2nd account as they are saying?
 
I think if realplayer doesnt have a 2nd account here they owe him the money. Realplayer, do you have a 2nd account as they are saying?

Two problems with the above. Firstly, as I believe others mentioned, once upon a time at Casino Club you were allowed more than one account. Don't ask me why though. And secondly, if he does have a second account, under an apparent female alias, is he really going to admit to that :confused:
 
Two problems with the above. Firstly, as I believe others mentioned, once upon a time at Casino Club you were allowed more than one account. Don't ask me why though. And secondly, if he does have a second account, under an apparent female alias, is he really going to admit to that :confused:

Dont know but i am asking anyway :rolleyes:
 
While I can somewhat understand their silence about realplayer, I disturbed that Casino Club have not felt fit to comment on the faulty blackjack game that they are operating.

Very poor behaviour.
 
from the CC lawyer's letter:

Quote:
Because the winnings from the aforementioned actions were used for further various games, your entire gaming account data, your nickname and your password have been deleted. An entitlement to the originally stated sum on your gaming account does not exist.
My account is not deleted. This statement of the Lawyer is untrue.

an easy test:
If I use an invalid password or user name, come the error message "The user name or password you entered is incorrect. Please try again."

But, If I use my valid password and user name, come the error message " The account is closed....."
 
My account is not deleted. This statement of the Lawyer is untrue.

an easy test:
If I use an invalid password or user name, come the error message "The user name or password you entered is incorrect. Please try again."

But, If I use my valid password and user name, come the error message " The account is closed....."


yeah i am sure they have not, i was just questioning that statement...
 
yeah i am sure they have not, i was just questioning that statement...

The statement makes no sense whatsoever like several others that come from CC's side of the argument.
They stated they were "watching" the player to find out how he was defrauding them. (forget that is another argument that makes little sense for a moment) so naturally this would be done through his playlogs.

To make an analogy using CC's own statements,
they were playing detective ("watching" the player to find out how he was defrauding them) , found the smoking gun (incriminating evidence in his account), arrested and locked up the player (confiscated winnings,misappropriated players deposit,closed account), charged the player with fraud (legal threats), prepared to present their evidence to the courts (LGA Malta,Legal options) and then promptly and deliberately destroyed every shred of evidence that would prove their case. (Delete all the players logs and account information)

I think it is fair to say their lawyers statement was inaccurate :rolleyes: and it seems these inaccuracies are endemic to CC when it comes to this case.

If Casino Club are correct that Realplayer is a fraud or otherwise and the evidence proves conclusive then good luck to them but their handling of this case has been just dreadful.
Whatever the outcome I think some harsh lessons will of been learned.
 
So, realplayer, can you explain just what the current situation is? This thread started promisingly but as of late has gone a bit off track, so we have yet another complex issue.

So, you reported this to the LGA, and you are waiting for a response. The casino contacted you via its lawyers, and has made clear on here that all costs will be brought against you if they win (in court I am presuming).

Just a couple of lines from you explaining this 'simply' would be appreciated.
 
Only thing I'd like to add to this thread at present is.....if we are all sitting here waiting for Malta to respond, please don't anyone hold their breath. It could be a year or more.....and that's IF they even decide to render any decision at all, or reply to anyone.

Just adding that because that's where it seems this case is at....all dependent on a ruling from a regulatory entity that may never give one.
 
Only thing I'd like to add to this thread at present is.....if we are all sitting here waiting for Malta to respond, please don't anyone hold their breath. It could be a year or more.....and that's IF they even decide to render any decision at all, or reply to anyone.

Just adding that because that's where it seems this case is at....all dependent on a ruling from a regulatory entity that may never give one.

Agree. IMO players should be wary of playing progressives at Casino Club until this is resolved one way or the other. If it turns out the casino is at fault i would hate to see anyone else possibly lose $160,000+. Also as Pina stated who knows if Malta will ever respond and also if they will be fair. Is a good idea to see what country/jurisdiction the casino you are going to play at is regulated by in case of these type issues.

I still think something is fishy in this case and i really hope somehow the whole truth comes out.
 
Either something is getting lost in translation, or CC have made a poor choice of lawyer. All Realplayer has to do is use those lawyers letters in court. CC clearly didn't mean that this was in any way a "clairvoyant bot", but the lawyer seems to have misunderstood what a bot is, and what it does, and made an inaccurate statement of the "charges" in a LEGAL DOCUMENT.

Sometimes, the WRONG party can win a court case due to incompetence on the part of the legal representatives of the RIGHT (honest) party. Many lawbreakers get off on a "technicality" because the prosecution has prepared the case badly, or procedure was not followed.

Simply being one of a number of players from the same town is NOT "collusion", in fact, casinos with these "refer a friend" scheme are MORE likely to have "linked" players simply because a player has referred all their friends, and naturally, they are "linked" to all their friends in many ways.

Fraud would be different, and the use of the word "collusion" means something a little different. It suggests multiple accounts, where the "friends" referred did not actually play their own accounts, or did not even exist.

Moving money between accounts is NOT possible in standard casino games, collusion or not, but the recent trend of having tournaments and live tables has made it conceivable that something similar to "chip dumping" could be worked out in a casino environment.

A model of this would be the Microgaming "sit n go" tournaments that no-one seems to bother with. 5 "colluding" players could buy in, and decide beforehand who is going to win, thus we have, albeit on a VERY small scale, something akin to "chip dumping" in the MGS Viper lobby. IF MGS offered very high stakes and prizes, yet still a limit of 5 to 10 participants, they would be hit pretty hard by "chip dumping" type frauds, so perhaps this is why these tournaments have only ever offered prizes around $10 to $20 so far.
A similar thing could happen with multi player blackjack, assuming the "colluding" players could monopolise a table. It needn't be live Blackjack either, just multi-player.
The purpose of such collusion would be to transfer BONUS chips to a player with no WR on their account from those who have, something that has plagued poker sites for a while. Such collusion does not necessarily mean that fake IDs or multiple accounts were used.

Allowing a fraud to continue under surveillance is a tactic used by many police forces. There is a need to gather enough evidence to make a case stick, however it does carry the risk that this allows the fraudsters to gather in even more money, with no guarantee that they will be "busted" before they figure out they are being watched & run with the money.

Since there IS a bot for Boss Media Blackjack (plays "perfect strategy"), AND with multi-player tables & tournaments within a casino application it IS possible to "collude" in a similar manner as with poker rooms to gain from bonuses, it is entirely possible that CC have been taken by a pretty clever (until now) fraud because they neglected to have a dedicated fraud team until relatively recently.
All they now have to do is PROVE that this case is one of them.

If CC can PROVE fraud, they would be within their rights under UK contract law to recover their costs from the fraudster. This could be argued in a civil court, which would decide what most probably happened, and decide what costs CC would be allowed to recover. Any remaining balance from the confiscated deposit would have to be returned to realplayer. The MOST CC could easily recover is the money they have already seized, if they wante more THEY would have to take realplayer to court for it, and risk the possibility of losing, and the whole judgement going into reverse, having to PAY realplayer the Jackpot AND damages & costs.
IF LGA rule in favour of CC, I believe this is where CC will leave it. Pursuing realplayer further would only make this issue drag on for what could be YEARS more, and with no guarantee of success. It would likely be realplayer that would have to take CC to court should the LGA rule in favour of CC, and there surely would be a legal time limit for taking such action, after which the money could be returned to the pool.

Since CC have now stated on record that they have the money, and what will happen to it for each of the two outcomes of this case, there is little point in insisting they put it in escrow, lodge it with lawyers, etc. They will be held to account by the player community after this affair is resolved.

Advantage players have to realise that the days of "casibot" are up, and it is no longer such a "steal" at $250 or whatever. The casinos KNOW about it, and are watching for it. Hell, even I know about it:p
 
CC begins roulette and blackjack tournaments middle of September 2008. See German CC magazine Nr.23, page 6:
Mit Roulette- und Black Jack-Turnieren, der neuesten Innovation im CASINO-CLUB, bieten sich den Gsten ab Mitte September
noch hhere Gewinnchancen und noch mehr Spa am Spiel
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My account was closed in August, 2008.

Let me say loud and clear, blackjack are not a poker game. Everybody plays independent of other players (at the same table or other tables). My stake and my actions (hit, stand, double down, split) are independent of other players.
Since there IS a bot for Boss Media Blackjack (plays "perfect strategy")
Please tell me, who is the provider(website) of this bot software?
 
A model of this would be the Microgaming "sit n go" tournaments that no-one seems to bother with. 5 "colluding" players could buy in, and decide beforehand who is going to win, thus we have, albeit on a VERY small scale, something akin to "chip dumping" in the MGS Viper lobby. IF MGS offered very high stakes and prizes, yet still a limit of 5 to 10 participants, they would be hit pretty hard by "chip dumping" type frauds, so perhaps this is why these tournaments have only ever offered prizes around $10 to $20 so far.

A similar thing could happen with multi player blackjack, assuming the "colluding" players could monopolise a table. It needn't be live Blackjack either, just multi-player.

The purpose of such collusion would be to transfer BONUS chips to a player with no WR on their account from those who have, something that has plagued poker sites for a while. Such collusion does not necessarily mean that fake IDs or multiple accounts were used.

Eh?

In multiplayer blackjack players play against the house. Not each other. It's just a slower version of normal blackjack, with more hands on show. Collusion is not possible.

Advantage players have to realise that the days of "casibot" are up, and it is no longer such a "steal" at $250 or whatever. The casinos KNOW about it, and are watching for it. Hell, even I know about it:p

Some casinos don't seem to be so bothered. Cryptologic have just introduced several autoplay blackjack games, and Microgaming haven't exactly gone out of business.
 
If CC can PROVE fraud, they would be within their rights under UK contract law to recover their costs from the fraudster. This could be argued in a civil court, which would decide what most probably happened, and decide what costs CC would be allowed to recover. Any remaining balance from the confiscated deposit would have to be returned to realplayer.

If they believe the actual funding of the account was fraudulent they should have notified the proper authorities and explained they would hold the funds until the inquiry was complete.

They have never suggested that the deposit was fraudulent though so it should have been returned to the player when the account was closed.
No matter how vindicated CC feel they are in seizing the deposit they have misappropriated this money plain and simple, some would use stronger language.

They have acted arbitrarily of any lawful judgment or even a judgment by LGA Malta which is plain wrong.
Should they prove their case then they would be perfectly within their rights to pursue the player for all costs including any administration charges etc

That is how things are done in the civilized World but unfortunately this is Cowboy Town we are talking about.
 

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