Pulver VS Lock Casino

[lost2much]

Sorry if my post angered you Max, but apparently I don't know how things "work" here. It was intimated by some posters that CM may take payments for the accretidation and even (in veiled language) suggest that CM may even accept payments from some casinos to quell PABs.

As you have told many of us many times.... relax. We all have lots of questions these days, especially us in the US with June 1 coming and all the uncertainty that involves. I just wish that if you are going to come on here and tell us that you believe this investigation is justified, that you would expound on that statement. It's like someone going around saying "I know the answer, but it's a secret". Not saying you do know the answer, but the lack of additional info makes speculation run rampant. I hope that this works out well for the OP and they get paid. I realize that it is your forum, but a lot of us here feel like we walk on eggshells as to whether what we post will be deemed as wrong by you, Bryan, and the mods. Kind of feels like if you don't like what we say we will be silenced. It happened to me for speaking my mind awhile back about accredited sites.

 

[just play]

Max, why do you always have to be so hostile?

So they don't pay to be accredited, but pay to advertise correct?

I'd appreciate it if you give me a chance to look at my outbox when I get home so I can dig up my quote. BTW - advertising rates in 2004 weren't even a third of what you quoted, which were the lowest in the business. And no one pays to be accredited, if you meet the standards, you are give the opportunity to advertise.

You guys can't be serious?!? Do you really know that little about how things work here? Unbelievable!

NO, FFS! Nobody pays, nobody can pay, Bryan wouldn't take money if they tried to pay. The criteria for Accreditation are posted and they are what Bryan says they are, period.

Jeezuz! What the hell is going on these days? I can't believe how many people are trying their level best to turn this into a cesspit

Yes, I do know that little that goes on around here, please forgive me, I only read what I think is interesting, I do have a life outside of Casinomeister. Now I am being accused of trying to turn this into a cesspit....NICE.

 

[bryand]

In my years playing online I have had payments stalled, checks lost and 2 checks bounced. But, as far as I know, I've never been investigated by a casino, much less by the software vendor. Unlike some other members here, when I see "investigated" in a thread, I pause and wait for the outcome to be posted.

Can anyone here cite even one time that CM has ultimately taken the side of the casino and it was later proven that the player was right?

 

[Mavin1]

Also in defense of Maxd, I'm sure he has a very stressful job dealing with all the negative crap that none of us sees or has to deal with, add that with what we forum members put him through, I would have to say he has been pretty darned patient and restrained. Just because our curiousity is more than we can contain, it still does not mean that we the public are privy to anything unless the OP, casino or Mods deem it to be so.

We can only hope for a positive outcome and nothing more. This is not a suck up, but just being objective for all involved.

 

[maxd]

I hope this issue is just as true and simple as it seems....

I hope I've indicated pretty clearly thus far that it isn't simple, not at all. I'm sorry that I can't go into specifics -- and here's where the "you trust us or you don't" part comes in, at least for the time being -- but there are very reasonable grounds for digging into this player's case. The evidence warranting that investigation may turn out to be ungrounded or insufficient but nobody -- not me, not the casino, and not you guys -- will know that until the process has run it's course. That's just the way it is. Since there's now a PAB running on this I will be an active part of that process but that process lies ahead of us and, as I say, we'll see what we see.

Sorry if my post angered you Max, but apparently I don't know how things "work" here. It was intimated by some posters that CM may take payments for the accretidation and even (in veiled language) suggest that CM may even accept payments from some casinos to quell PABs.

Yes, I know, and that's where the problem takes root. When you repeat such things they get replayed in other people's mind. They tell two friends and they tell two friends ... you know the story.

My point is that there are more than enough people here who do know how untrue such filthy little rumours and intimations are and it seriously pains me that they are not more active in quashing such rubbish.

If the quoted persons are not familiar enough with Casinomeister to know better than to say such things then my apologies, but I'm familiar enough with all your names to have assumed that you would know enough about how things work here to know that such filth is not only patently untrue but it is destructive enough that it should be dealt with swiftly and summarily dealt with. To hear you repeating it and giving it the time of day simply makes me ill.

Max, why do you always have to be so hostile?

Ok, fair question. I saw red there, no denying it. Guilty as charged.

So they don't pay to be accredited, but pay to advertise correct?

Yes, quite so.

I only read what I think is interesting, I do have a life outside of Casinomeister. Now I am being accused of trying to turn this into a cesspit....NICE.

Yes, well I suggest if your reading is so limited then a little discretion in what you chose to post might be warranted too. If you honestly have no clue how damaging a statement like yours can be then I'm sorry for your ignorance but you need to know that such things are a cancer on forums like this.

Years and years of work building a reputation can be poisoned by crap like that, if for no other reason than newbies reading it will wander around like lost2much above saying "Oh, I heard it so it's probably true" or some version thereof (nothing personal @ lost2much, just using it as an example).

I've dealt with filth like this off and on for about a decade now and it never gets any easier. Forums like Casinomeister live on their reputations and to see a decade of hard work and exceptional contribution pissed on so frivolously is ... heartbreaking I guess. Hard to put it any other way.

 

[bernynhel]

No, I reckon we are not. I've said it before countless times and I believe I've told you directly, I take nothing in these cases as granted. I would be skeptical if the OP told me he liked peanut butter!

Nothing against the OP personally but I have been lied to about everything you can imagine -- sick family, lost computers, dyslexia, death, age, sex, sexual preference, sex changes, identity theft, the identity of thieves, yadda yadda yadda -- and it's become my habit insofar as the PABs are concerned to believe what can be proved. Everything else is a "maybe" afaic.

Do I think what the OP says is true regarding their communication or lack thereof with Lock? I'll believe it when I see the record, sure, but not before. So no, we're not on the same page at all: you have opted to take the OP's complaints regarding Lock's communications at face value, I do not. We'll see what we see.of a lot more honesty and candor here than you realize. Clearly.

Now we are on the same page, almost. Well, on the same page as far as my knowing where you're coming from, anyway.

Actually, I only took how the OP says he feels as a result of his claim of Lock's lack of communication at face value, which cannot be disproved, not any claims as to what actually transpired between them. I'm with you on that - I wasn't there so it could be anything. I did say even if its all BS, it's Lock-inspired. No matter if they didn't communicate with Pulver for two weeks or two seconds, whether or not any of the the facts are verified, they have given him cause to, if nothing else, talk shit about them. For whatever reason. This is a symptom of "The customer is always right", which only exists at all due to the fact that the merchant cannot win this kind of confrontation no matter what he does. Neither can the customer, but the merchant has other customers to take care of that may still be salvageable, or better, and, therefore, much more to lose by prolonging any single dispute any more than is absolutely necessary. Right or wrong, Lock's dealings with Pulver sent him here. So what good is it to Lock to be right, now?

Is it standard OP for you to delve into the emotional aspects of a casino/client relationship in a PAB in addition to the simple claim of unpaid winnings? Perhaps sticking to the mechanics of determining whether the player's are either owed money or not would be more a suitable parameter. From what you say, there'd be a whole lot less BS to wade through.

It's interesting, but you seem to think I may have had any inkling as to what you and Bryan do here. Not a clue - other that what I've read in the Forum and Main site pages I've visited - so you could probably tell me what I do or don't know about CM.

 

[Mavin1]

Bern, I have to say this, I preferred your other avitar over this pink butt in my face, although the tatto is kind neat. No offense.

 

[maphesto]

Bern, I have to say this, I preferred your other avitar over this pink butt in my face, although the tatto is kind neat. No offense.

I understand you perfectly and I have wonder about that butt too, but would you prefer his face?

 

[RedAndi]

Maph!

 

[lost2much]

Sorry that questions about how things work behind the scenes at CM makes you ill Max, never my intention. I don't know what you know, I don't care because it doesn't affect me either way. I just wonder why you are so bizerk over these questions?? I know things have gotten quite confrontational here lately and there are numerous reasons for this (tight casinos, hoodoo bonus rules, late/slow pay, hell, even the economy in general!) I guess a lot of us just want to find out how the CM empire (and you guys are THE pinnacle of the forum world) works behind the scenes.

I also believe that most of us here really do believe that CM is a marvelous asset to the online casino world. Just saying, don't get too emotional over things you don't want to hear, I have had trouble with that myself. Like the line from some old song says... "you can't please everyone, so you gotta please yourself". Enjoy the rest of the weekend Max!

 

[Mavin1]

I understand you perfectly and I have wonder about that butt too, but would you prefer his face?

Oh yeah, that's much better, Popeye was always my hero!!!!

 

[Pulver]

Please delete.

 

[SlotKing]

@ Pulver:

You would be wise to send your communications to Max in a PM rather than posting it on the board. Regardless of how big/small/insignificant as it may seem (and I hate to say this, but I will), "No Posting" means no posting.

@ Everyone in this thread:

Chill Out.

In 15 years of customer service, I have seen it all, and it will probably get worse as time goes on. CM, Max and the mods are in the service industry - and as such (as anyone in that industry will tell you), steam needs to be let off. When you get such crazy things like "What time is the 10 o'clock laser show?", "Is your water wet?" or "My dog pissed on my internet connection, so I lost my deposit and want a refund and ZYX casino won't pay me!", trust me, it gets to you after a while.

Max has a job to do. He has been appointed by CM to handle these issues.

Let him do his job.

If the circumstances warrant, and the OP agrees, at the end of all this, he will let us know the results. But until then, we all will have to wait, just like Pulver will. Take a deep breath and step back to look at the entire picture, not just a piece of the puzzle. If this was your situation, wouldn't you want it handled in pretty much the same way? With integrity, honesty and, most importantly, privacy?

If you don't know how the PAB process works, click here. CM and Max have written an extensive guide on exactly what to expect.

EDIT: Specifically, Read this section:

Q: I have already, or would like to, post about my complaint on the message boards. Is that a good idea?

A: No, it is not a good idea. A PAB is a private negotiation process and it works because it gives the casino people the best possible opportunity to resolve your issue calmly and fairly in talks with professional industry people without the burden of external pressures or influence.
A message posted on the boards is quite the opposite: it creates a very public public-relations issue that the casino people generally feel forced to contain, or ignore, as best they can.

Because of the pressures involved a forum post on a given issue will usually derail any PABs that are in progress on that issue, and this is why we advise that forum posts be withheld until the PAB process has had a chance to run it's course.

We reserve the right to discard any PAB that where that same issue has been posted to the boards. This relates to threads started by, or contributions to other threads by, the person who filed the PAB. This applies equally to posts made before or after the PAB was filed.

In other words in the case where the material was posted before the PAB was filed we will determine whether those posts would damage or thwart the PAB process before we decide if we will proceed with the PAB. In the case where the material was posted after the PAB was filed there is a very high probability that we will suspend or discard the PAB at that point.

Once we indicate that we are finished with a PAB the person who filed it is free to post about the issue as they see fit (all the usual Casinomeister Forum Rules are applicable).

We are all adults here. With some, it may not seem like it, but we are all responsible humans. This being the internet, I realize there is some shelter of a screen name, but think about it like this - would you act this way in real life to your boss? To your friends? To your parents?

I said it before, and I'll say it again.

Chill Out.

 

[maxd]

... I only took how the OP says he feels as a result of his claim of Lock's lack of communication at face value ....

And I'm sure you'll understand that in the course of my work on the PABs I frequently encounter people who claim to have all kinds of "feelings" that are very convenient given the results they seek. Like I said, take nothing for granted. Anything and everything is fair game for the scammers so anything and everything is worthy of being cross-examined thoroughly. In a shocking percentage of cases a player will have whatever "feelings" they think are going to help them get what they want. It's often my job to find the purpose behind the feelings.

... whether or not any of the the facts are verified, they have given him cause to, if nothing else, talk shit about them. ... Right or wrong, Lock's dealings with Pulver sent him here.

Again we must agree to disagree. It could well be that the hope of a nice payday is what inspired the person's outrage and drove them to post here (again, not speaking specifically of the OP but in general).

In other words you can't assume that there is anything valid about their "talking shit" at all, it could be just another part of the scam. Believe me, it's been done, many many many times before.

Personally I don't share your "customer is always right" perspective on things. I see things more along the lines of "the customer always has an opinion" and there are other opinions to consider.

In this business, in my opinion, taking the "customer is always right" approach will, in the end, make the casino the target of every scammer and fraudster in the business. In other words it'll break 'em. So you might imagine why that philosophy isn't as popular here as it might be elsewhere.

So what good is it to Lock to be right, now?

IMO, every good. Speaking theoretically here, but if it turns out the OP was a cheat and a liar from square one, that this whole thing has been a big scam, then by sticking to their guns and routing out the crookery the casino sends out the message that it's not so easy to screw them over and get away with it. That's a very important message to send because the scammers waiting in the wings are legion and if the casino is vulnerable those scammers will happily eat the casino alive, no question.

Is it standard OP for you to delve into the emotional aspects of a casino/client relationship in a PAB in addition to the simple claim of unpaid winnings? Perhaps sticking to the mechanics of determining whether the player's are either owed money or not would be more a suitable parameter.

Thanks for the suggestion but the nature of what we do means that about 90% of the issues we see begin with "I have been cheated and I feel terrible about it". Sometimes the person means what they say. Sometimes they mean "I'm going to piss and moan about this until I get what I want". And sometimes it's all just a ploy. So (a) it's virtually impossible to not allow people to say such things and (b) it virtually never makes one jot of difference to the case at hand because we do, as you say, focus on the facts of who did what and who is or is not owed.

It's interesting, but you seem to think I may have had any inkling as to what you and Bryan do here. Not a clue ....

Well, that does surprise me. You've been around a while and are fairly active here. I would have assumed that you'd have more insight into what goes on behind the scenes. Apparently not. Learn something every day I guess.

Sorry that questions about how things work behind the scenes at CM makes you ill Max ....

Let's not be cute, shall we? If I met you at a gathering and was soon asking you when you started eating feces and how long you've had an unusual attraction to barnyard animals and was it this or that creature that tended to catch your eye most you would rightly wonder WTF my problem was, no? Generally speaking, in decent company I should bloody well know better, yes? Right, well same thing here.

No we don't take kickbacks. No we don't sell our pages to anyone who wanders by with a fat pocketbook. No we don't sell PAB results to anyone who pays. No no no no ad infinitum. Get my point?

At some point it's reasonable to draw a line and say "why are you asking these questions? What kind of place do you think we run here that you would ask such things?" and so on. That is where questions like yours -- "is it true sites pay to be accredited?" -- take us, right down to that line. That's the way I see it anyway.

I guess a lot of us just want to find out how the CM empire ... works behind the scenes.

Great, ask away! By all means! That would be a good and healthy discussion. But try not to start by asking "so are you corrupt and what you do is a big scam?" That approach wouldn't be appreciated by any serious person and, as you may have gathered, it wasn't much appreciated by me.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend Max!

You too.

 

[P.V.]

verification

This particular complaint was started from the disgust of no response of Player Verification first and then the fact they haven't been paid. Regardless of the major thread derailment from the original poster I'd like to point out that new options are available for Verification of Players and Online Casinos.

 

[jetset]

I hope I've indicated pretty clearly thus far that it isn't simple, not at all. I'm sorry that I can't go into specifics -- and here's where the "you trust us or you don't" part comes in, at least for the time being -- but there are very reasonable grounds for digging into this player's case. The evidence warranting that investigation may turn out to be ungrounded or insufficient but nobody -- not me, not the casino, and not you guys -- will know that until the process has run it's course. That's just the way it is. Since there's now a PAB running on this I will be an active part of that process but that process lies ahead of us and, as I say, we'll see what we see.



Yes, I know, and that's where the problem takes root. When you repeat such things they get replayed in other people's mind. They tell two friends and they tell two friends ... you know the story.

My point is that there are more than enough people here who do know how untrue such filthy little rumours and intimations are and it seriously pains me that they are not more active in quashing such rubbish.

If the quoted persons are not familiar enough with Casinomeister to know better than to say such things then my apologies, but I'm familiar enough with all your names to have assumed that you would know enough about how things work here to know that such filth is not only patently untrue but it is destructive enough that it should be dealt with swiftly and summarily dealt with. To hear you repeating it and giving it the time of day simply makes me ill.



Ok, fair question. I saw red there, no denying it. Guilty as charged.



Yes, quite so.



Yes, well I suggest if your reading is so limited then a little discretion in what you chose to post might be warranted too. If you honestly have no clue how damaging a statement like yours can be then I'm sorry for your ignorance but you need to know that such things are a cancer on forums like this.

Years and years of work building a reputation can be poisoned by crap like that, if for no other reason than newbies reading it will wander around like lost2much above saying "Oh, I heard it so it's probably true" or some version thereof (nothing personal @ lost2much, just using it as an example).

I've dealt with filth like this off and on for about a decade now and it never gets any easier. Forums like Casinomeister live on their reputations and to see a decade of hard work and exceptional contribution pissed on so frivolously is ... heartbreaking I guess. Hard to put it any other way.

Heartbreaking is appropriate imo.

I dislike witnessing this sort of totally unwarranted and destructive innuendo applied to CM and its backroom staff, whom I have personally witnessed do a power of good for players in so many ways, and the industry at large on countless occasions.

As a general observation, using the phrase "it's all about the money" and applying that philosophy willy-nilly, tends to unwisely dismiss the efforts of many people for whom personal integrity and a fair deal are genuinely more important.

More specifically, I've seen Bryan discard advertising revenues and boot sites off CM rather than promote questionable operators here.

I have also seen more than enough direct evidence at CM to convince me that Bryan's approach to business on this site is honesty and balance driven.

Having watched this thread go steeply downhill with allegations of personal persecution and innuendo of unethical business, I have to say that in Max's position I too would take umbrage that such sterling efforts on behalf of players over the last 12-odd years are so lightly and unsubstantially disregarded.

Reputation, balance and trust are all important in this industry, and if you (in general, not particular) cannot accept that these are present in abundance here, it may mean you are very hard to please, spectacularly uninformed or have an agenda of which the rest of us are unaware.

 

[chayton]

Do you guys remember that one guy who put up the website all about how all online casinos are crooks and that Bryan was in the casino's pocket? I can't remember his name but he had that lame site with all the spelling errors and "quotes" around "everything?" He was a member here and I believe he got kicked out before I even joined. I don't really know the whole story but from what I read I believe his issue was that he didn't like to lose. Not that any of us does, but this guy....if he spent too much money he'd spend more - then blame the casino and squawk about how they were cheats and when Bryan didn't back him up and get back all the money he'd ever lost and shut down those mean casinos, he put up this website that pointed the finger at everyone else.

Anyhow, my point is that when people start talking about how Bryan gets paid by the casinos to sway the PAB or buy their way onto the accredited list, I always think of that one guy and his motivation. He lost money, Bryan wouldn't get it back, so in his opinion, Bryan's on the casino payroll. There was another guy who was a total fraudster that did the same thing.

I run several smallish websites and I know what it costs - I can just about guess how much it costs to keep this site and forum running, just in server space alone. So is Bryan selling advertising? Damn bloody right he is! Who the hell else is going to pay to keep the site online? Not us - there's no membership fee and the PAB process doesn't cost a dime to the players.

The idea that casinos pay to be accredited smacks of conspiracy theory IMO. Of course they have to pay if they want to advertise here, and they can only advertise if they're accredited. That doesn't mean that IF they pay for advertising, they're automatically accredited. I'll bet that Bryan turns down ad revenue from shady casinos every month.

Also the idea that Bryan or the Casinomeister gang are taking money to see the casino side in a PAB is absolutely ludicrous. If that was the case, then why aren't they also taking money from the players who win a PAB? I just dealt with a substantial sum from a PAB with no sneaky messages from Max or Bryan hinting that if I give them a cut, they'd rule in my favor. It's just dumb. If that had ever happened even ONCE, the Casinomeister site wouldn't even be here and Casinomeister accreditation wouldn't mean diddly and we'd be on our own when the casinos decided they didn't want to pay.

I mean come ON people. This site is here for us. For the players. To keep us from throwing our hard earned dosh into some scam casino that has no intention of paying out. To give us a way to contact a casino rep when customer service doesn't know how to help us. To fight for us when things go to shit. I don't happen to agree with everything that's said by the crew here, and I don't personally like (or play at) a few of the casinos that are accredited here. But I do believe in what they (Bryan, Max, Simmo! et al) do here, and I think they're doing a hell of a job. Let's show a little support for the work they do - after all, they're doing it for us.

Now that I got that off my chest...

Back on track...I'll be interested to see how this plays out for the OP, I'm really curious about what's going on and why it's taking so long. To the OP, I hope it doesn't turn out to be a "malfunction voids all play" kinda situation.

One more thing....the idea that Lock casino turned off the chat window for the OP....is that even possible? It seems unlikely to me that a casino could or would even do that. I've had issues with not being able to connect at certain times, is it possible that it was just coincidence?

 

[Cant_Get_Right]

[Max says: be warned, the following is a deliberate misquote and distortion of the original text]

Do you guys remember that one guy who put up the website all about how all online casinos are crooks and that Bryan was in the casino's pocket?
Anyhow, my point is that when people start talking about how Bryan gets paid by the casinos to sway the PAB or buy their way onto the accredited list, Bryan's on the casino payroll.

Damn bloody right he is! Who the hell else is going to pay to keep the site online? Not us

The idea that casinos pay to be accredited smacks of conspiracy theory IMO. Of course they have to pay if they want to advertise here, and they can only advertise if they're accredited. IF they pay for advertising, they're automatically accredited.

Bryan or the Casinomeister gang are taking money to see the casino side in a PAB. I just dealt with a substantial sum from a PAB with messages from Max or Bryan hinting that if I give them a cut, they'd rule in my favor when the casinos decided they didn't want to pay.

I mean come ON people. I don't happen to agree with everything that's said by the crew here, and I don't personally like (or play at) a few of the casinos that are accredited here. But they (Bryan, Max, Simmo! et al) do show a little support for us.

Now that I got that off my chest...

Back on track...I'll be interested to see how this plays out for the OP, I'm really curious about what's going on and why it's taking so long. To the OP, I hope it doesn't turn out to be a "malfunction voids all play" kinda situation.

One more thing....the idea that Lock casino turned off the chat window for the OP....is that even possible? It seems unlikely to me that a casino could or would even do that. I've had issues with not being able to connect at certain times, is it possible that it was just coincidence?

Agreed! (Just having fun). But they did name a slot after him. Hell they may even name a holiday after him. Where the casinos takes a Monday off and cashins wouldn't be processed until tuesday.

 

[maxd]

In a PM exchange with the OP it came up that he feels that he's been a bit incriminated by all the off-topic hypothetical talk that's gone on. I reckon I'm probably to blame for that so let me say this clear and without equivocation:

As yet absolutely nothing has come to light to indicate the guilt or innocence of either the OP or the casino in this case. So far I've barely started on the PAB and have certainly done no analysis of the situation whatsoever. As far as I'm concerned this hasn't even begun yet so there are no grounds for recriminations or any such thing.

... I hope it doesn't turn out to be a "malfunction voids all play" kinda situation.

That would be a highly dubious move on the part of the casino and/or RTG because that's not what this is about, it hasn't even been mentioned and is not part of the discussion. If that rabbit where suddenly to pop out of the hat I'd be hunting me some wascal wabbit.

 

[maxd]

I've heard back from the casino people in the wee hours and it sounds like RTG has replied. A formal statement from the casino regarding the PAB is expected very soon and either they or I will post here accordingly.

 

[ksech]

After reading this whole thread, here is MY 2 cents...

I hope that all the disgruntled people who have pissed and moaned in this thread NEVER EVER have a need to call on Maxd for help. Because if you do, and he can help you, then he is 100% X the better person after taking all the crap he has in this thread.

 

[Nifty29]

After reading this whole thread, here is MY 2 cents...

I hope that all the disgruntled people who have pissed and moaned in this thread NEVER EVER have a need to call on Maxd for help. Because if you do, and he can help you, then he is 100% X the better person after taking all the crap he has in this thread.

Well said.

 

[chuchu59]

After reading this whole thread, here is MY 2 cents...

I hope that all the disgruntled people who have pissed and moaned in this thread NEVER EVER have a need to call on Maxd for help. Because if you do, and he can help you, then he is 100% X the better person after taking all the crap he has in this thread.

I would say it's only 99%. Give the guy some room for improvement will ya.

 

[jelsmith]

Ill say this for sure....when Lock asked for my birth certificate there was no way in hell i was gonna give it.....but after Max said they were on the up and up I gave it right to them....I TRUST Max and Bryan....and its sad that people are trying to drag down their good names.....

 

[RedAndi]

Ill say this for sure....when Lock asked for my birth certificate there was no way in hell i was gonna give it.....but after Max said they were on the up and up I gave it right to them....I TRUST Max and Bryan....and its sad that people are trying to drag down their good names.....

Why would they need a BC?