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Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by bash_2357, May 24, 2007.

    May 24, 2007
  1. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple


    So here are the facts. I signed up to Prime under Old t+c . i.e deposit 100, bonus 100 and wager 30 times slots ( or other variations - usual MG rules). I played 5 Deuces Wild , Didn't abuse the bonus in any way and luckily hit a RF-balance shot up to 1130.

    Withdrew within the t+c, bonus forfeited and Money in my neteller account 1030, 3 days later. Excellent i hear you cry.

    Two weeks later, Neteller inform me that Prime taken the money back from my neteller account. No word from the casino.

    Spent the last two days chasing CS at Prime and they will not back down. I even have a screenshot of the terms i used when i signed up and played. It is true that their t+c changed around the same time as i was playing, but when exactly that kicked in is not clear. I know i checked the bonus conditions the night before and took a screenshot. This is clearly a grey area here but they are naturally favouring themselves.

    Customer Service are adamant they will not pay me. They have voided my winnings are prepared to return only my deposit. I have said that i am prepared to wager the balance 30 times on slots if necessary. As a extra kick in the teeth the email says that i can get the bonus again and 'you never know your luck might still be in '. P. take as far as i can see.

    Normally, casinos return your balance back to your account and ask you to complete the wagering but not here.I find this particularly harsh

    I have pitched a bitch but am very disappointed with the outcome. I feel i have been doubly hit by neteller and by Prime.

    My advise would be to avoid Prime Casino.

    Any thoughts.
  2. May 24, 2007
  3. Mr_Zoidberg

    Mr_Zoidberg Dormant account PABrogue PABnononaccred PABnonaccred

    The bar
    Are you telling that the removed moeny from your NETeller? Isn't that stealing?
    How the hell can they do that :what:
  4. May 24, 2007
  5. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Yes, the OP has raised this in "other" as a Neteller complaint.

    While casinos have been known to void winnings, this case is most disturbing, as they voided winnings and recovered the winnings already paid some two weeks later from the player's Neteller account.
    It seems odd that the withdrawal passed audit, and only two weeks later the money was taken from the players own personal Neteller account. This is an example of Prime casino doing a chargeback in reverse, since the withdrawal had already been paid and credited.
    This is no different to a player making a deposit, and later deciding they didn't like the way the games played and charging back through their credit card.
    if this is considered so "evil" when a player does it, how come it is an acceptable way for a casino to get it's own way in a dispute (after all, that is what it is).
    It looks like the withdrawal was passed by audit under the old terms, but was reconsidered under the new terms some two weeks later, and recovered.

    This is a HUGE issue, it means ANY casino can arbitarily recover a payment after the fact from a player's Neteller account just because they "feel like it".
    Neteller did nothing for the player here, they took the casino at it's word that there had been an error, without reference to the player.
    After this action, no player should feel guilty for resolving a dispute in a similar manner. If it's fair for a casino to do this, it is equally fair for the other party to the contract to follow suit where there is a dispute.
    As always, the party who has the money has a huge advantage in a dispute situation, and this "theft" changed this to the casino having the advantage.

    This player's playcheck and Cashcheck records will show whether they deposited under old or new terms, not forgetting that it is the terms at the time of deposit and bonus claim that matter, not any terms a couple of weeks later after the withdrawal has already been paid.

    This is the second time we have had an accredited casino embroiled in shady practice this year, not including the unresponsive Pharoahs.

    Even if the casino are able to show they were right, making a chargeback through Neteller is a dirty game, and quite possible illegal, as recovery of disputed funds has to be sanctioned by the courts, not arbitarily by one party. This is one reason why chargebacks are hated when players do them to get money from casinos that they knowingly deposited and lost.
  6. May 24, 2007
  7. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    Here are the terms currently on the Prime casino website for the SUB.
    It is a standard EZBonus,
    This is what is said about VP (where the disputed win arose). No problem therefore with how the win was made.

    100% - all Slots, American Roulette and all Parlor Games
    50% - all Table Pokers, Red Dog, all Roulettes (excluding American Roulette), Casino War and Sic Bo
    10% - all Video/Power Pokers (except All Aces Video/Power Pokers), all Blackjacks (except Classic Blackjack), all Craps and all Baccarats
    2% - Classic Blackjack and All Aces Video/Power Pokers
    NOTE: Playthrough ( betting) is liable to use the Gamble Feature on Slots or the Double Feature on Video/Power Pokers this is exempt from playthrough requirements.

    In terms of making an eventual withdrawal:-

    Only from the Cash Account can withdrawals be made and these can be made only after the wagering requirements have been fully met. Otherwise, no withdrawals can be made.

    Under MG EZBonus, this additional term is implemented in the software, and any attempt to withdraw will be met with a banking screen error stating that WR has not been met. I have seen this myself (as a software error) when Casino Action changed over to EZBonus without properly clearing "ghost" WR from the system.
    This looks like the "new" term, however, if the player was able to withdraw, then this term had not yet been implemented in the back end systems. This would explain why the withdrawal went through in the first instance.
    Since the casino is responsibe for ensuring it's own back end systems are kept up to date, they should not hold the player responsible. Had they done their job properly, it would have been impossible for the player to breach this term due to the software block and error message, which would have allowed the player to query this with support, who would have advised of the reason, namely that all bonus balance must be converted (WR fully completed).
    The OP states that the bonus was removed, this again implies the system incorrectly allowed the withdrawal through, and it took 2 weeks for the casino to find out, and then they pulled a "stunt" on the players Neteller account.
    This looks like the terms changed not at the time of deposit, but near simultaneously with the time of withdrawal (unless the OP withdrew on the same day).
    Terms are also undated (no reference to an expiry date), so the player would be under no obligation to reassess the terms page until 30 days has elapsed from the previous read through, or where directed to do so on a future offer. A previous case like this went in the favour of Trident Lounge because the promotional terms stated "valid until.......", and the player deposited the day after this expiry, and thus should have checked the new terms. In this case, this change would have gone unnoticed by any player till they checked again, and I would assume the OP checked the terms before playing, and didn't see the need to check them every day or so just in case a change had been made.

    Promotion Terms and conditions
    An account is made up of a Cash Account and a Bonus Account. You can't withdraw from the Bonus Account; however, this account can be used to place bets with. Only from the Cash Account can withdrawals be made and these can be made only after the wagering requirements have been fully met. Otherwise, no withdrawals can be made.
    Betting requirements (or playthroughs) are shown in the terms and conditions of each promotion.

    Terms & Conditions
    Any amounts shown as bonus amounts are placed in the Bonus Account subject to thirty (30) times playthrough before they can be removed.

    As different games are played this could well affect the contribution or percentage of the playthrough requirement possibly up to 100%,

    - The contributing percentages are as follows:

    100% - all Slots, American Roulette and all Parlor Games
    50% - all Table Pokers, Red Dog, all Roulettes (excluding American Roulette), Casino War and Sic Bo
    10% - all Video/Power Pokers (except All Aces Video/Power Pokers), all Blackjacks (except Classic Blackjack), all Craps and all Baccarats
    2% - Classic Blackjack and All Aces Video/Power Pokers
    NOTE: Playthrough ( betting) is liable to use the Gamble Feature on Slots or the Double Feature on Video/Power Pokers this is exempt from playthrough requirements.

    As the playthrough requirements are met, funds are automatically transferred from the Bonus Account to the Cash Account in denominations of 10 credits at a time.

    Playthrough is only possible when real money bets are made,

    In this instant Real money bets are taken from the Cash Account. Should there be no cash available, the bets are deducted from the Bonus Account. The funds in the Bonus Account can only be utilized if there are no or little credits in the cash balance.

    Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus, you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements. Winnings on bets for the Bonus Account after the wagering requirements have been met go straight to the Cash Account.

    Should a Players Bonus Account together with his winnings mean that the Bonus Account balance exceeds the size of the original bonus amount; the excess winnings are automatically added to the Players Cash Account.

    Note: Less any automatic transfer costs from the Bonus Account to the Cash Account, charged.

    The Player acknowledges that in order to be eligible for any promotion or bonus they must be playing with the primary currency used in the country where they have a registered address and are playing from. The casino reserves the right to withhold bonuses and any winnings resulting from deposits in any currency made in contradiction to this condition. An exception is made for USD and CAD to this clause.
    1 person likes this.
  8. May 24, 2007
  9. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    You could try the Financial Ombudsman Service and report the theft to police, although they will undoubtedly say it is a cival matter.
  10. May 24, 2007
  11. aka23

    aka23 Dormant account

    Planet Earth
    A second player mentioned a similar problem to me a couple days ago, in which Prime Casino removed his winnings from Neteller.

    Support tells me that early this month, Prime changed their early withdrawal rules. They used to require players to withdraw their cash balance at any point, like a traditional Clearplay. Now they require players to complete the full playthrough. They seem to have implemented this rule change in a strange way. I believe they told Neteller the early withdrawal payments were made in error and requested that Neteller return the payments back to the casino.

    If players did sign-up and play before the rule change, clearly the original rules should be applied. If players signed up and played after the rule change and the payments were truly made in error, then the situation is more complex. While the casino is justified in having the new rules applied, taking money from Neteller accounts is a questionable way of applying this. These players should at least have the opportunity to complete wagering.
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  12. May 24, 2007
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom
    This is more true, as if this rule change had been PROPERLY implemented, it would be impossible for this sorry situation to arise in the first place.
    Also, why did the new terms not get picked up at audit. Surely if the casinos own processing team were not aware of this change, how on earth can the casino even think it is wrong for players not to be aware.
    It seems that this is not even a precedent, it is seemingly quite OK for any casino to claw back funds from a players personal Neteller account. This is like a shop giving the wrong change, and five minutes later realising and running down the street and mugging the customer to retrieve the error from his wallet. If it is the customer who is diddled, the rules differ, in that once they leave the shop a dispute over change will not be entered into.

    This is simply unfair double standards, both of the hypothetical shopkeeper, and Prime Casino. I wonder how many other covert raids they have done on players Neteller accounts, and Neteller have simply allowed it.
    I have not even seen this with the rogues, once players get paid, they tend to stay paid. I expect the rogues will cotton on to this ploy, make a big show of resolving a dispute, and a couple of weeks later, when the fuss has dies down, snatching the payment back from Neteller.

    If the casino went so far as to pay these withdrawals, they should live with it, not trick Neteller into returning the funds by claiming "error". This is a perversion of this procedure, it is meant to be used when a party inadvertently makes a payment twice, not as a means to sneak a chargeback through Neteller, who do not permit chargebacks as a rule.
    When a player earlier posted about a fraud on their Neteller, Neteller said the money was in another Neteller account, but claimed they could not recover it without the agreement of the other party, so what is so goddam different in this case that makes Prime able to get this done WITHOUT said permission from the other party.
    Last edited: May 24, 2007
  14. May 24, 2007
  15. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple

    Thanks for all your thoughts...

    All i want from Prime is for them to give me an opportunity to complete my wagering ( even though i don't need to under the old t+c's).
    I am incredibly annoyed about how they clawed back the money from neteller and they had no plan to tell me about it.

    Is it a good idea to draw their attention to this thread?
  16. May 24, 2007
  17. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    Hey Bash, have you PM'd Josh, their manager? From the sounds of it, he's probably already aware of the situation if you've been going back and forth with them. But just thought I'd offer the suggestion in case you haven't. Here's the link.

  18. May 24, 2007
  19. PrimeCasino

    PrimeCasino Dormant account

    Our Terms and Conditions

    I'm sorry to hear that some of you are upset about the change in our terms and conditions. Regarding withdrawals from Neteller accounts "after the fact", these payments should never have been made in the first place according to the terms and conditions. I'm sorry that you saw an initial payout but we simply do not allow withdrawals at all until the B*30 is met. Again, I'm sorry if this seems unreasonable but these are the terms and had you deposited prior to these terms taking effect, this situation would not apply to you. In addition, we're not pioneers in this respect either as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet.

    Again, I apologize for this situation but assuming we're "like every other MGS Casino" is not something I feel we should be responsible for. There are some players from this very forum who will attest to how liberal I am with money but if you haven't read the T&C's, that is really your responsibility. Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software.

    I appreciate that many of you are familiar with the standard Microgaming terms and conditions but you must understand, just because most MGS Casinos follow certain protocols, this does not necessarily mean that we are obligated to do the same.

    The bottom line here is quite simple. For those of you who have deposited under the previous T&C's, you have already been able to withdraw and this has not affected you at all. For those of you who deposited afterwards and withdrew prior to meeting your requirements, we have refunded your initial deposit less your bonus and winnings.

    I feel that this is more than fair and I apologize to those of you who feel otherwise.
  20. May 24, 2007
  21. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple

  22. May 24, 2007
  23. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple

    Josh, Can you explain why you didn't even have the courtesy to explain to players that you had taken money from their neteller accounts? This is underhand.

    Also, a reasonable casino would allow us to complete the wagering not to void all winnings. I am prepared to do this.

    There is little doubt that this negative publicity is not going to help Prime. I URGE you to reconsider for the sake of probably a few hundred pounss ( which will be the case after you make me wager it !).

    I would really like to know what CM's view on this is?
  24. May 24, 2007
  25. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    STILL At Leisure
    United Kingdom

    The really big issue here is taking the money out of Neteller without the permission of the player. Had the withdrawals simply been denied at audit, this would have been a standard dispute. The making of the payment was YOUR mistake, as also was the failure to implement the rule change properly such that the bonus system trapped an invalid withdrawal due to remaining WR.
    You have set an extremely bad precendent, in effect, funds in Neteller are not safe, any casino, if they feel like it, can decide that they didn't want to make the payment after all and get it back from Neteller.
    This could have been far worse, what if in the intervening fortnight the player had deposited the money into another casino and lost it, where would they be then.
    This action could well be illegal under UK law, as you did not follow a proper dispute resolution procedure, but effectively just snached the money back.
    Under UK law, parties that dispute whether or not a sum of money belongs to the other has to file a dispute if no resolution can be reached between the parties. For this sum, the dispute would be taken to the small claims court.
    Another legal point is that under UK law gambling debt is not enforcible, and this could mean that the forcible recovery of a gambling related sum from one party would be illegal.
    Neteller could be in trouble for allowing this, since this is against their policy of not allowing chargebacks in disputes. If you told Neteller this was an error, this was a lie, this is a dispute over terms and conditions.

    Your terms do not carry an expiry date, so what matters is when this player READ these terms, you cannot expect player to check every single day just because they might have changed, many believe that periodic checks are a reasonable requirement, such as monthly. If changes are made routinely, or even considered, the terms should allow for this by using a rolling monthly offer expiring at the end of the month. The next month could see the offer renewed under existing terms, or the terms changed, but the expiry date informs the player how long the terms they have read are valid for, and if they deposit after this, they should know to recheck the latest set of terms.

    You are not like any other MGS casino, no other would dream of taking funds out of players Neteller accounts, they would take the hit for their own silly errors, as they would expect players to take the hit if THEY make a silly error. Do NOT expect players to be absolutely perfect, yet ask forgivness for a silly mistake on your part.
    From the evidence posted, it certainly does not look like a case of fraud, or an attempt to abuse a bonus by mathematical trickery (the one bet with entire bankroll scenario). This was one damn lucky hit at Deuces Wild, allowed under the terms, followed by the players belief that the terms had not changed since he last read them, supported by the fact that the banking page let the withdrawal through, followed by your audit team letting it through, and it then remaining a further fortnight in Neteller.
    This is known as "responsible gambling", withdrawing after an unexpected big hit, and it is not as if any bonus money escaped, this was removed on the way out.

    Microgaming introduced this new bonus system to PREVENT these types of issue from happening. Microgaming have to rely on operators using their part of the software properly, or this system will be just as bad as any other system. The end result is that players will not trust any bonuses offered by casinos, and that is your main marketing tool up the spout.
    There are already numerous players who advise not to take bonuses because of the risk of not getting paid, and how are these players to be attracted to a new casino. I have looked at the Prime website and the attraction is, well, nothing unless you want the SUB, no tournaments, no draws, no competitions, no newsletters, not worth playing compared to other casinos that offer such events to regular players.

    It now seems that Prime are taking back a number of payments from players Neteller accounts, I hope they are ready for the flak.

    As for it not possible to prevent withdrawals if WR are not met, this is not the players problem is it, it is an issue with MG needing to cater for the needs of it's customers. MG never intended EZBonus to work like this, so why have operators not made a formal request as soon as they saw this oversight, why wait till now (this applies to other MGs who tried this rule change, and who had ample time to request it be properly implemented as a feature). If the audit department at Prime were not asleep at the wheel, the payments would have been halted there, and a reputable casino would have refunded them to the players accounts and informed them that terms had recently been changed, but that it had proved impossible to implement the change in the banking screen. The MG banking screen also shows T & C for the bonus system, and where casinos have made this change to the MG standard, these terms are not correct, but are nevertheless still displayed as current to the player who wishes to double check (not many do at this stage though).

    I still cannot get over how it is even possible to raid Neteller accounts after the fact like this. It's a chargeback, nothing more. The floodgates have opened, and it will be damn hard to shut them now.

    Neteller = not as safe as we once believed.
    Chargeback = a valid way of resolving a dispute in our favour if it is the other party that currently holds the disputed funds.

    Worse, this Neteller "chargeback" was the FIRST option employed, not the last. Where was "service to the customer". Looks like "b*****d won, and we cocked up by paying, get the money back at any cost to reputation & sod negotiating in a reasonable manner and pointing out how we made an error and ask for understanding"

    This is why I am treating this topic in such a hard-nosed manner with respect to the casino, this is how they saw fit to deal with this player's possible mistake (player disputes terms had changed at time of deposit, yet to be proven either way).
    12 people like this.
  26. May 24, 2007
  27. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple

    Many thanks for the comprehensive and supportive argument. I only wish i was half as articulate in writing!

    Also, neteller did tell me that Prime told them that account had been credited in error/wrong account credited. They have that in writing.
  28. May 25, 2007
  29. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse

    Pencil Pusher
    The perversion of the standard MG EZBonus system is the least of my concerns. What I find astonishing is (to quote the original poster):
    Unheard of, and totally off the wall. I see fault with both NETeller and the casino. Was it indeed 2 weeks later that the funds were retrieved from the player's account?? Did the casino try to contact the player by telephone and email before doing this? As pointed by Vinyl... what if the player had already spent that money?

    If the player did indeed deposit after the change in T&C, why did he receive the cashout at all. Ok... let's say the casino goofed. So... it took 2 weeks to find it out -- after the player was paid? Payouts are not audited -- especially new players? And then, you reclaim the funds from his NETeller. Unacceptable.

    I do appreciate that PrimeCasino has registered here and taken the time to address concerns, but greater care must be taken by the casino to see that payouts are done in the proper manner, in the proper amount, and (for the love of pete!) stay out of players' NETeller accounts! :eek2:
  30. May 25, 2007
  31. bash_2357

    bash_2357 Banned User - violation forum rule 1.9 - multiple

    It was 13 days from the deposit that the funds were removed from my neteller account. I can prove with my statement if they is any dispute.
    No contact from the casino at any stage. I asked neteller what if i had spent the money and they said Prime would not have got it then! I have asked for some compensation from Neteller but no luck there. Money is not safe in Neteller.
  32. May 25, 2007
  33. XXLClubCasino

    XXLClubCasino Dormant account

    Casino Manager
    What does Playtech has to do with your case?!

    I truly believe that most Playtech casinos do not have a 30x bonus wagering requirement but more in the range of 8-20 x B+D.

    Also most "fair/honest" casinos would give the player the opportunity to meet his WR and not simply cut his winnings and refund the deposit. In my humble opinion this is a really "unfair" way to solve this issue, especially knowing that your audit/finance team mess up to do their work properly and control that the WR was met before proceeding the player's withdrawal.
    1 person likes this.
  34. May 25, 2007
  35. cyprean

    cyprean Banned User PABnononaccred

    Well said.
  36. May 25, 2007
  37. uungy

    uungy Dormant account PABnononaccred PABnoaccred PABaccred

    With all your respect you arent the best to qualify to disagree in regards to breaking terms and conditions

    You are just as useless in regards to responding, and the similar

    besides you have caps on wothdrawals, which you dont notify your players about
  38. May 25, 2007
  39. Joda

    Joda Dormant account

    "Ultimately, I would like to make it physically impossible to withdraw from the Casino until the wagering requirements are met but as of this moment, it's not possible in the software."

    Josh, if this is the ideal for you then why not return all of bash's money to his account and let him complete the wagering? Clearly the winnings could never be void if this was the case.

    You may not be able to change the way the software works but you do have the authority to restore his balance. The software is not forcing you to void the winnings. It is nonsense to make the above statement if you are not prepared to return the money in order for the wagering requirements to be satisfied.
    2 people like this.

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