Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[PrimeGaming]

Working on it now.

Spin FGH, the owners and operators of Spin Palace are the people who handle our support. I have been trying to credit these accounts as of several hours ago but the emails are bouncing back with delay messages and their systems are offline. I have spoken with Tim from Wagershare about it and he tells me that the power is offline and that they're working as fast as possible to resolve this. You're welcome to try emailing either our support, Spin's support, or calling any of our support numbers for verification of this fact.

Please try to understand that I'm trying to sort you guys out but you're just going to have to give me some time. In answer to your question, Lunkan, I am not a support agent and have several PM's I'm dealing with prior to the one you've just sent me. Please be patient as there is nothing I can do until I get support on the phone today. If you fall within the same situation as Mohammed, you will get your money credited back but there is no way for me to check this until I can get through to support.

Thanks for your patience,

Josh.

 

[The Dude]

Hi Bash and Lunkan,

Let's have some patience - okay? Josh said he's working on this. Thanks!

 

[pangloss]

Anyway - good that the smoke is clearing on this. I think the resolution is fair, and I hope this issue is settled.

Somehow I think not. Money in NeTeller for 2 weeks then disappears?? Neteller IS NOT a credit facility, there is no charge back provision, it is a e-wallet. You pick my wallet I call the Police. Theft, larceny, stealing.

I call on Prime Casino to release all correspondence between them and neteller that facilitated the removal of funds from players neteller accounts without their consent or knowledge.

This is not just gross incompetance - it is quite clearly a matter of criminality.

As my new friend keith (Da_Gambler) remarked, "Gawd this is bad.... disgusting... "

Disgusting indeed.


...

 

[PrimeGaming]

Let's all calm down a bit

Somehow I think not. Money in NeTeller for 2 weeks then disappears?? Neteller IS NOT a credit facility, there is no charge back provision, it is a e-wallet. You pick my wallet I call the Police. Theft, larceny, stealing.

I call on Prime Casino to release all correspondence between them and neteller that facilitated the removal of funds from players neteller accounts without their consent or knowledge.

This is not just gross incompetance - it is quite clearly a matter of criminality.

As my new friend keith (Da_Gambler) remarked, "Gawd this is bad.... disgusting... "

Disgusting indeed.


...

I haven't even verified that these funds have actually been removed by Neteller. I have only your word to go on and I need to see the transaction records which I can't get until support is back online. Those of you posting are assuming that this actually happened, that it was in fact 2 weeks later, and that the Casino is always lying and that the player is always telling the truth. I am not accusing anyone of misleading this forum until I have the whole story which I can't get because even the phones at support are currently offline. Please be patient and let me find out how and why this happened. Regardless of the situation though, I am not crediting the money back into Neteller accounts. I will credit the affected Casino accounts and you can play through your wagering requirements which was what you were supposed to do according to the terms and conditions.

I'm waiting to hear back from support about how this happened, why it happened, why I wasn't informed, and when, if and why/the players weren't informed either. Ranting and raving like a lunatic isn't going to make this situation resolve itself any quicker. I think it's quite a stretch to think that for a few thousand pounds, I'm going to voluntarily "pick your pocket" and steal from you. Please lets give the drama a rest already and give me a chance to sort it out.

Thanks,

Josh.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Wow this is disturbing...
As for the other casino reps who read this thread, thanks to Prime, we all know you all could possibly do the same thing as well. That's going to be a problem. The operations that come out with wording in their T&C's that state all cleared payments are final will be the educated consumer's first choice, so think about it. The rabbit's outta the hat here...

I've had our T&C updated with your suggestion, not believing many players will read it but as I fully disagree with this practice and even didn't know it to be possible I think it's good trust for the player to have it written in the T&C for player's safety.

Anyway as long as I'm manager of XXL we will never consider doing this with my knowledge we are sometimes hurt by scruple less players doing charge backs and I always find it disgusting.

T&C at Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) 6.5.3

6.5 Payments

6.5.1 You agree that we or a payment processing company on our behalf will handle all financial account transactions ("Payment Processor"). You hereby agree that the Payment Processor reserves the right to withhold any payments should the Payment Processor have reason to believe or any suspicion that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, collusion, unlawful, or improper activity.

6.5.2 You agree to fully pay any and all payments due to us or any third party in connection with your use of the Online Casino. You further agree not to make any charge-backs and/or renounce or cancel or otherwise reverse any of your due payments and in any such event you will refund and compensate us for such unpaid payments including any expenses incurred by us in the process of collecting your payment.

6.5.3 All cleared payments by the Casino and or Payment Processor are final.

 

[Lunkan]

I can confirm that my Prime casino account now has been credited with the money taken from my Neteller account + the bonus that was voided when making the cash out.

I'd like to thank Josh and Prime Casino for at least coming to a reasonable resolution.

EDIT: Actually I'm quite happy with the resolution since my account was credited $120 extra, $100 since I got to keep my initial deposit upon the returned $667 and $20 extra in the bonus balance since I was credited the full $100 bonus when $20 of it was playthroughed last time. Josh has confirmed I can keep these funds.

 

[bash_2357]

Good news. The matter is resolved ( i know there is more to it but i am reasonably happy). But to give Josh credit( !) where it is due, the funds have been returned to my account including the bonus. I know it got ugly, but Josh has responded very quickly today. So well done Prime in sorting this out, in the end and apologies to referring to you as ' finally seeing sense'. it has taken too many telephone calls ( wait 24hours for management to return etc), emails and i was naturally wound up about it.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Spear,

I know exactly who you are and who you work for so I find it even more entertaining that you're willing to dispute this fact with me. In addition, your first statement, "I hope you have the balls" hardly adds to your credibility and should make you even more embarassed given who you work for. Do they know that you're posting here? I'm curious because I wonder how they would feel about one of their employees acting like a 6 year old.

Are you honestly going to lie to everyone in this thread? Are you going to sit here and tell them that Playtech doesn't own Casino Partners and formerly several other Playtech Online Casinos? I'm still not understanding what you think is out of line here or if this just you taking Pot Shots at competing software. Let's take what I said once more:

"as Playtech seems to generally follow this rule as well. In addition, their requirements are twice as hard to meet."

I'm quoting myself again since you obviously have reading comprehension issues. I said that Playtech seems to generally follow this rule. For example, take Casino Tropez. This casino is owned by Casino Partners and has the following terms:

" In the interest of fair gaming in order to cash out any amount of money you must wager at least eight (8) times your play bonus plus deposit. If you withdraw before having reached the minimum wagering requirements, your bonus and winnings will be void. "

Perhaps you explain to me how what I said was incorrect. I said they "generally follow this rule". The rule being that you can't withdraw until the bonus is cleared or both your winnings and bonus will be void. I never once stated that all Playtech Casinos are the same. You simply decided that this is what I said and then twisted my words to suit your argument. Perhaps you should re-read what I initially said in order for you to better process it.

Also, I'm still waiting for you admit that Playtech DOES in fact own some of its operators: Specifically Casino Partners for example. Owning your operator, regardless of how much you think you can argue it, means that they exert some level of control over it.

Cheers,

Josh.

Yes they do have this rule in general, with "can't" being the operative word here. If you attempt to withdraw without clearing all WR, you physically can't do so, an errror screen pops up to tell you that you have further WR to complete. it doesn't say how much, and you have to get this info from support. It also happens if you attempt to include part of the play bonus in the request, it tells you to select a different amount.
With Playtech, the software supports this rule, with MGS it does not, and the banking page often carelessly states the standard. Don't forget, it is the latest T & C a player reads that count, and the latest terms a player sees before withdrawing from EZBonus are the ones on the banking page. If these state that a withdrawal with bonus forfeit is allowed, then there is no reason to think otherwise.
I get the impression these terms changed on the 8th May. This is an arbitrary date, not an obvious date for a player to think to check the terms again. If the read them, say, on the 5th of May, and they carry no expiry date, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that any changes would be blatantly obvious if they managed to deposit a couple of days later.
Had your terms carried an expiry date, say, valid until 7th May, then a player depositing from the 8th Onward is duty bound to check again.
This is rogue like behaviour, have an offer on the site that player can see, but if they mull it over for a couple of days they might get entrapped by a change that they would only find out about when it was too late.
Don't forget, you say the player should have read the terms again, but so should your audit and payment team, they are professionals - it is their job to know, players are just entering an entertainment venue, they should expect entertainment, not to have their pocket picked days later.

The big issue about casinos taking unauthorised debits from Neteller, and in some cases banks, has now been stated by Prime as hard fact. The damage is that now any scammer can come along with a tale about a casino taking money out of their Neteller/bank without permission, and we are now far more likely to believe this outright rather than thinking that this might be a case of either a forgetful player, a gambler in denial, or just a scam attempt.
It seems that ANY casino, and at ANY time forward, can retrieve winnings from a players Neteller account WITHOUT any reference to the player concerned, so that the first they know is when they see money missing - as they have not been informed, they regard it as theft, and it takes Neteller to inform them it was in fact a chargeback.

How about this scenario then;

Player deposits 1200 at the casino by credit card, plays a promotion, say a lucky draw or tournament, as well as general play. Two weeks later they find out the promotion was not as advertised in the mailer, but was considerably worse (an actual case was the misleading Gift Rap free spins promo from BelleRock last year). They don't like this, so rather than inform the casino and negotiate, they instruct their card company to chargeback the deposits because of misrepresentation of the product. Just as Neteller will do this for a casino, the card company can do this for the player, and here in the UK at least, the player has the Consumer credit act on their side, and the original mailer, and demonstration that it contained an advertising mistake affecting the value of the offer, is all they will need.

In the BelleRock case, players vented steam in the forum, complained to the casino, some even uninstalled the software in protest, but, not one player claimed to have initiated a chargeback.

As for a cheque, it is not as safe as some think, it is possible to cancel a cheque even after it has cleared, and get the money back. This can be up to 30 days from paying in the cheque, although this is normally done where the cheque is found to be fraudulent in some way, but even here, banks have to inform the customer of the recovery so that they have a chance to respond before it happens.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi Josh...

Still not been credited yet? You said an hour or so about 3 hours ago? Also presumably the bonus of 100 will get returned? So i can meet the wagering requirements.

I am willing to accpet this resolution even though many above feel that i should get the money back straight into my neteller account.

Thanks

This is probably wise, as had the software supported the rule change, this is exactly the position you would have ended up in.

Even the rogue Fortune Lounge, before EZBonus, always gave players one chance at complying with a wager rule by returning a withdrawal to the account for them to complete wagering. We then saw this as harsh, but now seems positively generous.
This whole industry is going to kill itself if these recent behaviours continue, and the US DoJ would just love this to happen.

 

[TravelMaxx]

I have a very similar problem like it has being discussed in this thread so far. I tried to solve it with Joshua by mail but his last reply was, that i wouldnt get my deposit and winnings refunded and that this was his final decision.

First of all i want to introduce myself. I am a very long time lurker here and a very long time subscriber to the Newsletter but only signed up to the forum yesterday because i waited four days to receive a reply on my first mail to Joshua and thought it would be a good idea to send him a PM. The reason i didnt sign up before is, that i never had any problem with any casino and i played a lot - with and without bonuses. I know, that it is absolutely not optimal that my very first post at the forum is a complaint but so it is:

On 10th of May i deposited 100 Euro to the Casino by credit card. I several times attempted to download the PrimeCasino software (with Firefox and IE) but i was unsucessfull so i decided to register on the Flash Casino. I made my deposit, claimed the bonus and received it some time later. I decided to either triple my bankroll or bust so i bet my whole balance on the last third and won - after that i decided to cash out. I know, that this is the difference to the original poster and another difference is, that the money never hit my Neteller or Moneybookers account but was withhold from Prime. I understand that this may be the difference in our cases but still feel treated unfair by the casino and am very interested in other members point of view.

I really didnt know, that to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements would allow them to forfeit the winning made up to this point. In fact i cant still see where their terms allow that. This is a point that really makes me angry about the whole situation - i asked Josh and also the live support several times whether this withdrawal of winnings is really in accordance to the T&C that were affective when i signed up. So far i didnt receive an answer on it.

I would like to post a copy of the mails Joshua and i sent us to explain my point of view and his reaction better but i dont know, whether it is in accordance with the forums rules and whether it would be OK for Joshua so i start with a mail i sent him and that i didnt get an explicit reaction on:

Hi Joshua,


first of all thank you for the fast reply on my second mail.

I think your decision to take away the winnings is not fair and i today still cant see that it is in accordance with your own T&C, but besides that i want to explain you why i think it isnt fair:

1.) I risked my own money - what would have happened if i lost, would you have refunded my original deposit too?
2.) Your software splits the money in cash balance and bonus balance. If you go to the cashier it tells you the exact sum you can withdraw and that you only would forfeit the bonus. I thought this information was right and thought i would only lose the bonus.
3.) Your bonus abuser argument: in my opinion it is OK not to process the withdrawal if it is made early - what is not OK is to take away winnings made. You could forfeit the bonus, recredit deposit and winnings to the casino account and tell the people to meet the wagering requirements. To forfeit winnings, made with own money, with money the people risked, is simply not OK.
4.) Your terms arent that explicit - in fact i find them to be very contradictory and you changed them recently. As i said earlier what your software says is very explicit: you can withdraw your cash balance - your bonus balance will be forfeited.

Again: i accept that you want the people to meet their obligations - but you could force that on a more balanced way. Why did you take away the winnings, why didnt you only take away the bonus when you decided not to process the withdrawal and refunded the account?

Last point: i read the terms, but obviously i didnt understand them correctly and as i said - what your software tells is contradictory to the terms. I made a fault, yes.

It would be fair if you would refund my account with the amount that was in there before i made the fault and let me honour your terms and conditions.

BR,

and another mail i sent him shortly thereafter

Hi Joshua,


could you please answer the different questions and statements i made i little bit more detailed?

And, as a small addition and to explain more detailed what i mean when i say that your terms are "contradictory":

"However, if you have opted in for the bonus, you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus."

This is in this moment still a part of your terms and i think i today would still have problems to understand them in the way you want them to be understood.

I really think it would be a matter of fairness to "restore" the situation that existed before i cashed out in good faith...


Thank you!

I accept that my situation is different from the situation bash_2357 was in but i am still very interested in everybodys point of view - even if you dont share mine.

Thank you!

 

[indievertigo]

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Huh?

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this. I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

 

[Swede]

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this.

Hello Joshua and all,

This will be my first comment in this thread. As of above, I do not dispute the ability of a casino to retrieve it's funds from Neteller for whatever reason; This will open up a whole new discussion but until then here's what goes:

The 'bigger' casinos such as 'you know which' also has this opportunity but will never ever impliment it for obvious reasons.

As VWM clearly states, a dispute between player and casino has to be officially opened no matter from where we hail. This implies a close communication involving both above and certainly also a third party(lawyer, spokesperson, escrow agent) or whomever involved parties have chosen. Until then, a 'recovery' of players funds is a breach of law and can/will be interpreted as such.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Hi Jens

Hi Jens,

I want to thank you for being as polite as you've been regarding this issue and I understand that you're upset. However, as you've said yourself, your situation is entirely different from Mohammed and Anders. You signed up and deposited several days after we changed the terms and conditions. We also never credited you with these funds to begin with. I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to stick to my guns.

It's not expensive for us to credit you the money but it's not about that. I've made good on the two people here who deserve it but I am not going to release funds to a player just because they claim to have not read the T&C's. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but even if I made an exception for you, imagine the flood of people just like you that will claim to have "not read the terms". This opens us up to massive promo abuse and we've been hit exceptionally hard since we've opened with exactly this kind of situation. In fact, this was the main catalyst for changing the terms to begin with.

There was no "illegal" withdrawal from your Neteller account as we caught this before you were credited the money and so I'm telling you one last time that I wish you the best but I am not going to credit you with this money.

Best Regards,

Josh.

I have a very similar problem like it has being discussed in this thread so far. I tried to solve it with Joshua by mail but his last reply was, that i wouldnt get my deposit and winnings refunded and that this was his final decision.

First of all i want to introduce myself. I am a very long time lurker here and a very long time subscriber to the Newsletter but only signed up to the forum yesterday because i waited four days to receive a reply on my first mail to Joshua and thought it would be a good idea to send him a PM. The reason i didnt sign up before is, that i never had any problem with any casino and i played a lot - with and without bonuses. I know, that it is absolutely not optimal that my very first post at the forum is a complaint but so it is:

On 10th of May i deposited 100 Euro to the Casino by credit card. I several times attempted to download the PrimeCasino software (with Firefox and IE) but i was unsucessfull so i decided to register on the Flash Casino. I made my deposit, claimed the bonus and received it some time later. I decided to either triple my bankroll or bust so i bet my whole balance on the last third and won - after that i decided to cash out. I know, that this is the difference to the original poster and another difference is, that the money never hit my Neteller or Moneybookers account but was withhold from Prime. I understand that this may be the difference in our cases but still feel treated unfair by the casino and am very interested in other members point of view.

I really didnt know, that to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements would allow them to forfeit the winning made up to this point. In fact i cant still see where their terms allow that. This is a point that really makes me angry about the whole situation - i asked Josh and also the live support several times whether this withdrawal of winnings is really in accordance to the T&C that were affective when i signed up. So far i didnt receive an answer on it.

I would like to post a copy of the mails Joshua and i sent us to explain my point of view and his reaction better but i dont know, whether it is in accordance with the forums rules and whether it would be OK for Joshua so i start with a mail i sent him and that i didnt get an explicit reaction on:



and another mail i sent him shortly thereafter




I accept that my situation is different from the situation bash_2357 was in but i am still very interested in everybodys point of view - even if you dont share mine.

Thank you!

 

[The Dude]

This matter shouldn't be swept under the carpet, it is an extremely serious issue. Josh, your attitude stinks, threatening Vinylweatherman as you did is low. You are like a petrified animal backed into a corner, digging your own grave. Until you have your terms and conditions updated to include (as XXL did) 'all processed withdrawals are final' then your casino is going to suffer, FACT.

Am interested to see that CM hasn't said anything about the small matter of a neteller chargeback.

I feel that Josh is dealing with this player issue up-front and honestly. Where did he threaten VWM?

You need to chill in a serious way.

Why no long comments from me? Besides this thread, it's been a busy day - I'm trying to catch up on PABs, two casinos got rogued, one pardoned, shit loads of emails, Chinese site being worked on, all sorts of crap. In other words, I'm not investing time today to get into a discussion about Neteller/casino issues. Especially when we don't know exactly what happened.

I'm waiting for more info on this, besides the last I heard these players were taken care of.

 

[hunterduke]

curious

very interesting thread
and im glad the players got their credits back
however
im still curious about one thing though, the one question that was never answered by josh or anyone else to my knowledge is what would have happened if the money was no longer in netteller to take back by the casino

 

[bash_2357]

Thanks casinomeister- as soon as you joined the case, the matter got resolved in a matter of hours.

 

[Da_Gambla]

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

I believe the poster confused VWM with SpearMaster...

I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

No, I don't really think so, sir. You may not be saying it's right, but your company did it, which means you took advantage of something that isn't right. It's good to see that you clearly understand the bigger issue than all of these Playtech sidebars...

As well, you did NOT refund these player's cashouts (unless I missed a post in this thread). You re-deposited them back into their casino account, which is much much different than a refund BACK to their NT accounts (where they BELONG!!)

Pending a cashout, the money is YOURS, and scrutinize to your liking before clearing a payment. Once the money is cleared and trasferred to the player's e-Wallet, it's THEIR MONEY. No one should be able to transfer that money anywhere without the e-Wallet account holder's expressed permission and PIN entry to confirm. You stole their money.

After you stole their money, and after they complained here, you made the money available in their casino accounts and told them to play through in order to receive the money back. Friend, that is suspiciously close to extortion. Here we have both players saying they will take your offer, but is it by a voluntary basis or by coercion? I think the answer to that question is clear.

Once they have cleared WR and cashout, they still have a valid complaint and potential suit against Prime. In my humble opinion, you have probably put Prime in a worse position legally by doing this in-house account refund rather than a straight NetTeller refund. Your lawyers may differ on the opinion there.

I will say to you, Josh, that I am troubled by some of the wording used by the OP in his original complaint. There was certainly some information he posted that was dodgy, and I'll give you the benefit of any doubt that you could disprove some of things he said. He will pay for that in his reputation around here, and in the future if he posts a problem, he will probably be grilled quite thoroughly by the membership here. That's his loss for now.

That being said, two wrongs do not make it right. You and your company will surely suffer consequences for your wrong response. Hours are ticking by. This thread is getting HUGE amounts of viewing time. Google is picking it up as we type. Soon it will start hitting industry Blogs and Newsletters. I'd say within about a week, this should be a damned impressive tsunami headed your general direction (along with NetTeller).

Other casinos are already taking advantage of your mistake and welcoming your potential players with new T&C's that promise this will not happen. Where's yours?

Refund these player's money to their NetTeller accounts and revise your T&C's to reflect your stance on this issue. I -know- neither of these individuals either deserve or earned this money fairly, but in the end, your security team dropped the ball, and your company is responsible for the loss. If they are honorable players, they will re-deposit voluntarily and go through the WR properly. If they do not re-deposit and run with the money, then post it here and that will be their legacy. Trust me, we can make life real uncomfortable for players who don't play fairly, and I also think you know that this is probably the only site where we will scrutinize and hold players accountable in such an intense fashion. I side with your "why", I cannot support your reaction. It is not appropriate business behavior. You're bigger than this, are you not?

A real resolution that makes your company appear to be the bigger gentleman would be wise. The tsunami approaches.

Respectfully,
- Keith

ADDENDUM: At face value, it seems that this thread bears out that the money was removed from NetTeller by the casino. Now there have been a few posts questioning whether the money was ever in NetTeller. If the money ever hit NetTeller, and I could care less whether it was for two minutes or two weeks, then my post stands at full attention. If information comes forward that the OP was not honest, and the money never was in his NeTeller account, then I completely side with Prime and they have every right to require proper play through before cashout. I'll reserve any further up-front criticism of Prime until this information is made available. I trust that will be soon.

/ADDENDUM

 

[bash_2357]

I#. If the money ever hit NetTeller, and I could care less whether it was for two minutes or two weeks, then my post stands at full attention. If information comes forward that the OP was not honest, and the money never was in his NeTeller account, then I completely side with Prime and they have every right to require proper play through before cashout. I'll reserve any further up-front criticism of Prime until this information is made available. I trust that will be soon.



/ADDENDUM

The Money definitely hit neteller and was sitting there for two weeks. If people really don't believe me then i could provide a screenshot of my neteller account ( with obvious details edited). I also have the email from neteller telling me Prime have taken the money back and will happily forward that too. But the matter is closed as far as i am concerned.

 

[TravelMaxx]

From my perspective there are two issues here that should be discussed:

1.) The Neteller issue: you still tell everybody that Neteller gave you the opportunity to revoke the payments - and that therefore everybody should discuss that with Neteller and not you. But you were it that used this opportunity - so it is only your responsibility and your fault.

2.) The fact that you voided winnings.

What really makes me angry (even if i try to stay polite) is, that you absolutely ignore my arguments and questions. You ignored them in the mails i sent you and you ignore them in this thread.

Do you really think it is a normal practice to void winnings made with funds, the player risked? Did your terms that were valid when i signed up allowed you to do so? I think not. Your terms are extremely contradictory - they still are (i made an example in my first post) and what your cashier states is even more contradictory to the intention of your terms. If it is not allowed to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements why does your cashier say it is and that the player would only forfeit the bonus? Why do you split between Cash-Balance and Bonus-Balance if, in fact, the player has no cash before he fully meet the wagering requirements.

Another point: i did at no time say, that i didnt read your terms! I read them and i obviously misunderstood them and you did everything to make them hard to understand.

Your statement that you would love to block invalid withdrawal requests automatically: i cant believe that. If it was true, why did you decide to void bonus AND winnings, why didnt you simply refund the withdrawal and tell the people to meet the obligations? That is what the software would have done. You make profit of this canceled withdrawal and in my opinion a reputable casino wouldnt.

Hi Jens,

I want to thank you for being as polite as you've been regarding this issue and I understand that you're upset. However, as you've said yourself, your situation is entirely different from Mohammed and Anders. You signed up and deposited several days after we changed the terms and conditions. We also never credited you with these funds to begin with. I'm afraid that in this case, I'm going to have to stick to my guns.

It's not expensive for us to credit you the money but it's not about that. I've made good on the two people here who deserve it but I am not going to release funds to a player just because they claim to have not read the T&C's. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh but even if I made an exception for you, imagine the flood of people just like you that will claim to have "not read the terms". This opens us up to massive promo abuse and we've been hit exceptionally hard since we've opened with exactly this kind of situation. In fact, this was the main catalyst for changing the terms to begin with.

There was no "illegal" withdrawal from your Neteller account as we caught this before you were credited the money and so I'm telling you one last time that I wish you the best but I am not going to credit you with this money.

Best Regards,

Josh.

 

[indievertigo]

Now I'm confused. When have I ever threatened Vinylweatherman or anyone else for that matter? In fact, I believe he has some good points about the Neteller issue and I've instructed support never to make chargebacks without checking with me first.

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen. Until then, all Casinos will have the ability to do this. I'm not saying it's right and as you can see, I agree with Vinylweatherman's opinion and have refunded their bonus and winnings.

My mistake, I meant spearmaster.

Just because casinos CAN do this, doesn't mean they do. Those casinos that request scans of credit cards CAN take the info (and before any pedant comes and says the numbers are blackened out, the backs of credit cards show the numbers indented) and defraud someone, but they don't. It would amount to a similar situation though, would it not?

Neteller are as much to blame as prime are, they allowed the money to be taken without consulting the player. I'd be very interested to see what it was prime casino said to neteller to convince them.
But, the issue still stands, you say that support must consult you first before stealing from a player... that does nothing for anyone, you need to put it in your ts and cs that withdrawals are final.

CM, i'm chilled don't worry I was merely quite shocked at how josh is dealing with this. I hope you agree though that this (if all the claims made so far are true) is an issue of some importance.

 

[Lunkan]

Isn't the big issue that casinos are allowed to reverse withdrawals the player makes to Neteller?

While the best thing from the point of view of us players would be to have the funds returned to Neteller, I'm reasonably satisfied with the resolution. That Neteller allows their merchants to reverse transaction without a dispute with the account holder first is the bigger problem as I see it. I have already contacted Neteller about this and they replied that they would review their policy. If more people did this that would make this a bigger priority for them.

Jens, as you point out your problem is quite different and maybe that discussion should go into a different thread.

 

[vinylweatherman]

From my perspective there are two issues here that should be discussed:

1.) The Neteller issue: you still tell everybody that Neteller gave you the opportunity to revoke the payments - and that therefore everybody should discuss that with Neteller and not you. But you were it that used this opportunity - so it is only your responsibility and your fault.

2.) The fact that you voided winnings.

What really makes me angry (even if i try to stay polite) is, that you absolutely ignore my arguments and questions. You ignored them in the mails i sent you and you ignore them in this thread.

Do you really think it is a normal practice to void winnings made with funds, the player risked? Did your terms that were valid when i signed up allowed you to do so? I think not. Your terms are extremely contradictory - they still are (i made an example in my first post) and what your cashier states is even more contradictory to the intention of your terms. If it is not allowed to withdraw before meeting the wagering requirements why does your cashier say it is and that the player would only forfeit the bonus? Why do you split between Cash-Balance and Bonus-Balance if, in fact, the player has no cash before he fully meet the wagering requirements.

Another point: i did at no time say, that i didnt read your terms! I read them and i obviously misunderstood them and you did everything to make them hard to understand.

Your statement that you would love to block invalid withdrawal requests automatically: i cant believe that. If it was true, why did you decide to void bonus AND winnings, why didnt you simply refund the withdrawal and tell the people to meet the obligations? That is what the software would have done. You make profit of this canceled withdrawal and in my opinion a reputable casino wouldnt.

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

One point worth considering is how were players expected to know about this change, was something done to draw attention to the fact that an update had been made, such as a note in the E-mail welcoming new players?
If the casino just slipped the term in on a nonedescript arbitrary date and give no indication, it is reasonable to expect that it might take a few days for players to notice the change. It is totally unreasonable to expect players to check and recheck each and every day like a sufferer of OCD - or are players supposed to be so paranoid, because they really ARE out to trap you.

Betting the entire bankroll on a single Roulette bet is just asking for trouble nowdays, although this is not against the T & C, it makes the audit department sit up and take notice. They then use the argument that your next action was to withdraw and drop the bonus. This all comes under the modern invention by casinos of "bonus abuse", and should really be more specifically defined, as even if you had read the terms and fully understood them, you would merely have finished WR after the roulette bet instead of withdrawing, and your winnings would still have been confiscated.
This, however, is against Casinomeister rules, since the terms did not prohibit any particular playing style, nor is Roulette a banned game. It is simply a cae of the casino deciding, after the fact, that they just didn't like HOW you won 3x your initial bankroll. This is what eventually got Fortune Lounge into the Rogue pit, winnings should only be revoked for fraud, not for clever play. Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

 

[Joda]

First of all, fair play to Josh. Public opinion was well documented here and he acted accordingly. Regardless of the initial exchanges, he decided to return the cash for further wagering. I may argue that allowing bash to withdraw immediately may curry favour with the public but that is neither here nor there as we say....

However, having reputable casinos snipe at each other on a public forum(possibly the most) does not do anything to enhance their reputations IMO.

 

[TravelMaxx]

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

Yes, obviously the terms changed before i registered but one of my main points is, that the terms are extremely contradictory. For example this is still part of the terms:

Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus, you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus.

I absolutely dont understand what the casino wants to say us with this if early withdrawals arent allowed.


Also the terms today still make a difference between Cash- and Bonusbalance. Does this make sense if the player isnt allowed to withdraw at any time - for me it doesnt. For me the word "Cash-Balance" indicates that it is yours and you are free to withdraw it - this is also what the cashier says.

Another point: voiding winnings is such a strong intervention that i at least would expect the casino to announce this consequence of an early withdrawal in the promotion terms. In fact the promotion terms still dont say that a early withdrawal would have the consequence that all winnings made before would be voided.

Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

No, i didnt register a Flash account and a Download account. I registered an flash account because i failed to register the Download account.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

:notworthy


I couldnt have said better.

 

[Da_Gambla]

I also have the email from neteller telling me Prime have taken the money back and will happily forward that too. But the matter is closed as far as i am concerned.

Well, you originally brought this to our attention as a problem about them snatching your cashout through NetTeller.

Post title: Casino remove my money from Neteller!

That appears to have not been your issue. Your issue seems to be the same as TravelMaxx. You did not abide by the T&C's that were in effect when you deposited, the casino took your winnings and bonus, and so you then used the way they took the winnings back as your "vehicle" to get them to return these things to your casino account. Another case of a player saying "I got mine.. seeya!" Amazing how powerful money is... but at the end of the day, out of court settlements are sometimes just as telling as court ruled decisions.

Thanks for your contribution, bash, you got yours. Nonetheless, the policy is still an issue for the rest of the players who might be subject to this method of thievery in the future. If Josh posts that he doesn't necessarily believe this method is "right", then it would be in his company's best interest to STOP the practice and guarantee through an addition to their T&C's that this practice will not happen again. That will suffice until NetTeller can clarify what their position is, and where it will be in the future.

The TravelMaxx issue is becoming an extreme distraction to this discussion, but VWM is making some good points. I wish it was in its own thread, however. I'm mildly sympathetic, but not amused with how this was piggy-backed. It could be construed as a desperation attempt to sneak in a favorable decision whilst the rep is distracted with other pressing issues, or is feeling pressure to create good PR. Since that is in the back of my mind and would color anything I might say, I'll leave that discussion to VWM and stay out of it for now.

- Keith

 

[pangloss]

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen.

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


...

 

[Vesuvio]

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions, though I also doubt Neteller would have agreed to this charge back 2 weeks after the fact except in case of blatant error or fraud. The problem of damaged reputation is important because Neteller have been known to close accounts on the basis of what on-line casinos have told them (another example of Neteller having too close a relationship to casinos).

If Neteller/Prime are unwilling to disclose any details of this case it would be helpful if some of those involved could try and obtain the info held on them from Neteller. As they're registered in the Isle of Man it should be fairly straightforward and cost no more than GBP10:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Yes but we can't notify players that haven't signed up yet.

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

One point worth considering is how were players expected to know about this change, was something done to draw attention to the fact that an update had been made, such as a note in the E-mail welcoming new players?
If the casino just slipped the term in on a nonedescript arbitrary date and give no indication, it is reasonable to expect that it might take a few days for players to notice the change. It is totally unreasonable to expect players to check and recheck each and every day like a sufferer of OCD - or are players supposed to be so paranoid, because they really ARE out to trap you.

Betting the entire bankroll on a single Roulette bet is just asking for trouble nowdays, although this is not against the T & C, it makes the audit department sit up and take notice. They then use the argument that your next action was to withdraw and drop the bonus. This all comes under the modern invention by casinos of "bonus abuse", and should really be more specifically defined, as even if you had read the terms and fully understood them, you would merely have finished WR after the roulette bet instead of withdrawing, and your winnings would still have been confiscated.
This, however, is against Casinomeister rules, since the terms did not prohibit any particular playing style, nor is Roulette a banned game. It is simply a cae of the casino deciding, after the fact, that they just didn't like HOW you won 3x your initial bankroll. This is what eventually got Fortune Lounge into the Rogue pit, winnings should only be revoked for fraud, not for clever play. Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

 

[PrimeGaming]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


...

 

[pingpong]

My 2 cents...

Some time ago, Geisha Lounge Casino deposited a withdrawal of several hundres dollars twice to my netelleraccount. They didnt discover the mistake themselves, but honest as I am, I told them (a week later or so) that I had gotten my withdrawal x2. But instead of taking the money back directly from neteller, they asked me if I could deposit the money into my casinoaccount, so that they then could take the money. Guess they didnt had to do that if its that easy to go into a players netelleraccount and "reverse" a deposit. (There was enough funds in my netelleraccount the whole time.)

 

[GrandMaster]

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

 

[Vesuvio]

I have spoken with the head of our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Thanks for the info. This is the first time I've heard of a casino using chargeback for anything other than accidental multiple payment (so I do think your support have seriously abused the option), but this is fundamentally an issue with Neteller. Most people I know have drastically reduced the funds they keep there due to fears the company might collapse at the whim of the American prosecutors, so Neteller can't afford to keep on ignoring the wishes of the customers they have left.

 

[TravelMaxx]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

What you say is actually that you used a bad business practice because you had the opportunity to do so.

I think most of the people in this thread are of the opinion that these chargebacks never should take place - the only exception i could imagine is a double payment.

 

[TravelMaxx]

typos / grammar

Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

No.

I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:

It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

 

[hunterduke]

then what

ypu stated as follows

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account.

so if the funds are not there you just forget about it? or do you lie in wait and confiscate deposits?

its pretty scarey that this can happen to players if you can get into peoples ewallets can you also get your hands into our private bank accounts?

i know the goverment can confiscate funds from us but i never thought that the law of the land stated that casinos had that much power as well.

the fact that its so easy for you to do this ...no paperwork..no proof required by neteller is scary enough, the fact you actually did it is even scarier.

 

[indievertigo]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

Players that haven't registered surely don't need to be informed?
An email to all registered players would be much better outcome, or a pop up when the MG/flash casino opens saying that the ts and cs have changed, click here to read them. That way no one can miss the fact. Once registered and depositing at a casino, I for one rarely check the casino home page and im sure many others don't as well.

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

Your not the first to do it, as said by others it's been done in the case of multiple payments. It should never happen again full stop. If a player were to chargeback, you'd have him on every blacklist you knew about, and ban him from the casino instantly.

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Are you claiming that on request, with no reason provided, Neteller will charegback for you?

 

[Da_Gambla]

Too much to quote, so I won't attempt, and instead just improvise against what has been said since my last post.

First off, Josh, you are moving in the right direction, or at least you were. As of your last volley of responses however, you are standing still.

I have issue with "I have informed support to never do this unless it comes across my desk first."

Umm.. no. That's unacceptable. No one should be allowed to play 'God' or 'Higher Power' with a player's personal financial account not directly under your supervision. I know you "can", per NT's agreement to assist vendors, but you should never do it as you did here. No one is going to complain if you need to recover funds that were applied twice. That's so legitimate, it sparkles in the daylight. However, in this case, a security audit after the fact was the basis for this chargeback, and that's theft of funds on your company's part. Criminally liable? Probably not. Civilly liable? We're getting warm here... would need an attorney to sort that through. Morally liable? BINGO. And that's where it's going to cost you... the trust department.

Players in this environment are just now acclimating to having to gamble twice. Once on a game of choice, and then another gamble as to whether they will get paid. The precedent you are setting here adds a third layer. Once they have gambled on the game, then gambled on getting paid and actually got the payment, now that player has to gamble on whether you (the casino) will come back and seize the money back due to some sort of security audit after the fact.

This IS the issue. I understand the two players in this original debacle are supposedly "happy" with your offer, but be serious here... you coerced them into thinking this was their only option. I'm not playing games with words with you, sir. This is fact.

Definition for COERCE:
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition.

You are the authority here. You stole their money and now control it, so you are the authority figure. They did not individually DESIRE or VOLUNTEER to do it this way.

2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

Ringing a bell?

3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

Ah yes... using fear and anxiety to control another. They feared those funds were gone forever. Once you decided to join this discussion, you had to "Sleep on it" over night, which of course brought much anxiety to the table for them.

Yes, Josh, I'm rather convinced these two players are as happy as pigs in shite over this.

You know Josh, and I probably don't have to remind you of this, but, gamblers are a funny lot. Suspicious, slightly paranoid. It comes with the territory (please review the English Harbour thread for a full understanding on how a breach of trust can erupt into a huge feeding frenzy). Now, I mean, you've just got to appreciate the humor in this... how many gamblers are going to get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling when you say "not unless it comes across my desk first"?

So then are you here to tell us that if these two bloke's case had appeared before you for approval of a chargeback, you would have told support "No, don't do it"? Or would you have approved it, leaving us to have this same exact discussion about raiding a player's private and personal account outside of your casino?

I appreciate your sincere attempt to lay the blame on NT, but YOUR COMPANY pulled the trigger. Yes... by all means, everyone with a Neteller account should complain to Neteller... LOUDLY... but you and your company are losing some serious trust with the gaming public. If you are one of us, do you deposit with Prime and risk having your money snatched after you have been paid, or are you more likely to deposit with XXLClub who have revised their T&C's guaranteeing that your withdrawl is final? That's your first clue Josh... the competition is already poised to handle this in the proper manner and make the customer feel that there is trust on both sides.

It is rather hard to have this discussion without offending you, but who the hell exactly do you think you are with this "not unless it comes across my desk"??

What happens when you are on vacation for two weeks? Does your all mighty wisdom get transferred to a "trusted" CS rep in your absense? Not acceptable.

What if the information provided to you by security or CS isn't accurate to begin with? Every green light you give would be done so by whatever evidence hits your desk. Are we so damn gullible that we are going to believe your information is always 100% spot on? Well for crissakes sir! This whole thread debacle proves that scenario otherwise! Pfft!

Help me out here Josh... surely you can come up with one or two other ways this is completely flawed?? Or are you really that confident in your perfection? I think no one is that perfect, and I don't think any one person should be in charge of pulling the trigger on stealing back money that was funded in good faith. Our issue as players is with Neteller AND YOU, not just the former. Your issue is with your security and CS team. You should ban your employees, as well as yourself, from EVER doing this again if you want the trust re-established.

Here's the bottomline. If I go buy a new television, and let's say the cashier doesn't charge me the full price, or forgets to add tax. I take my purchase home and set it aside to setup another day. Does this store have the right to come to my home and try to reposses the TV? No, they do not. Do they have the right to alter my check for the real amount? No, that's forgery. Do they have the right to upgrade the charge on my credit card? No, the new charge does not match my receipt, so that's fraud. What are they left with? A civil small claims suit, and that's IT. And trust me, that cashier either got a thorough arse-chewin' or was sent looking for another job.

You side-stepped that process Josh. After funding their NT accounts, your only real choice was to negotiate it directly with them or file a small claim and get a judge to rule in your favor. Instead, you just got down and dirty and snatched that money back when they weren't looking. That's what you did, and it was WRONG, period.

- Keith

 

[vinylweatherman]

Neteller

The admission by Prime Casino that they can take anything they pay into our Neteller accounts back without any need to give a reason makes this even more shocking than at first. The reason why Prime have been taken to task for this is that taking the funds back like that was unbelievable itself, but the suggestion that no justification was needed by Neteller was just so fanciful that it was more realistic to assume that the casino had misrepresented their case for recovery from Neteller.

Surely, in the interests of fairness, players should be able to reverse any of their Neteller deposits to a merchant provided the "funds are still there", and not have to give any reason - perhaps they can, has anyone tried?
Since they are UK/IOM registered, they have to obey consumer contract laws, and this would be an unfair contract if it gave such sweeping reversal rights to only one side, and not the other.
Even for a credit card chargeback, we have to give some kind of justification (however, the rules require the merchant to prove their innocence, not the player to prove guilt - bit ironic really ), and the merchant will have a chance to at least argue the point.

It is a problem with Neteller just as much as with casinos, as it leaves a door wide open for rogue casinos to plunder out Neteller accounts without reason if they have made payments to it.
Players who now feel uneasy about having funds sitting in Neteller are now going to be positively paranoid.
What is to stop a casino going under from pulling such a stunt with it's dying breath hoping to buy time, then folding by the time players can dispute anything, with the money vanishing with the company.

While the casino in this case quotes clear player breaches of terms, this is not legal. In order for this to stand up, the terms themselves have to be clear, in this case there are contradictory terms in different places. In this event, courts usually strike out both contradictory terms and leave the rest of the contract intact. They will also check that the terms are fair to both parties in equal measure. The abuse terms are not, they are too vague to have any real meaning. Courts will look at the "abusive play" itself, and compare this with the rules of the casino game in question, and whether the player played within the rules or cheated. Cheating at an online casino game is impossible, as the software enforces the game rules, but in a land casino, cheating is possible, such as sneaking a winning bet on after the croupier has declared "no more bets" and the result pretty much certain (roulette, for example).

The suggestion by Prime about changes to terms is a good one, but the announcement should be prominent, and more specific. It should be on part of the webpage that no player should miss, such as the download page, or a bonus claim page. It should include the date on which the terms changed, so players who know they last read them before that date will know to read them again.

The other point about reading the terms and depositing a couple of days later being unexpected, well, get real, MG casinos are ONE GIGABYTE, even on my fast Broadband it can take 5 hours to fully install the casino, thats one day gone already. Then there is registration, it ofter takes a while for the welcome E-mail. Players should wait for this, as this is where any important updates SHOULD be given to players. Once this is done, players may have problems depositing for a while, for example, Neteller keeps going down for "scheduled maintenance", without prior warning, and players may have to wait yet another day. Because this is made such an ordeal, they don't think that in those couple of days a REPUTABLE casino will slip in a new & nasty term, they will, of course, have reviewed the terms BEFORE going to the trouble of downloading and registering, and if their eventual deposit is a few days later they should not have to worry about changes for the worse.
Players who play for fun, and then register for real are caught out by the aggressive marketing found in "fun" mode. It allows registration for real without reference back to the website where any new terms or announcements will be found. As far as the player is concerned, they have already registered, and they are just converting their type of play. Most players are NOT lawyers, and do NOT nitpick like casinos tend to do nowdays, so will not be inclined to go through the terms again and again, and bombard CS with questions about minor points of rule or grammar. Perhaps in the present climate they should be doing this, and this will cripple CS and service will suffer. CS often can't answer such questions as they don't even understand what the question is about. This is not fantasy, this happens on a regular basis in relation to promotions. Again and again I have had unanswered E-mails, and when I finally get annoyed and phone, I am invariably told a tale of overwhelmed CS because of countless queries about the terms of something or other.

This point was raised:-

Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus,

you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus.

Many would understand this, but it is not direct. It used legalised language to express the concept, presumably in order to prevent smarta$$es from finding loopholes, however, a few people may be unable to see the wood from the trees in this, and not mentally translate this as:-
"You may not request a withdrawal until you have met the wagering requirements, or until you have played your balance to zero."

The problem phrase is "played through the bonus". "Playing through", can have other meanings than having zeroed out, such as promotions where you have to "play through" your deposit a number of times in order to receive a benefit from a promotion. the most common being the 1x playthrough of a deposit to get a bonus related to it. This leads to the interpretation of "played through the bonus", as meaning to have made wagers to at least the value of the bonus funds. These kinds of confusions tend to affect players whose grasp of English is not so good, or who have learned it as a second language. Native English speakers would most likely grasp the correct meaning by context, and experienced players would grasp the correct meaning through experience of the industry. Unfortunately, separating the genuine misinterpretation from the smarta$$ is not easy, so it is best to ensure the potential for misinterpretation is not there in the first place.

While we bombard Neteller about their shortcomings, it is time for casinos to bombard Microgaming about the lack of support the software has for this EZBonus rule variant.

Although players really should NOT just assume all MG casinos are the same, Microgaming have attempted, by implementing the EZBonus, to give players a common standard that they can understand for all MG casinos. MG had this idea that the players would then be spared the problems arising from different terms at different casinos, and gave casino operators the ability to change game weightings as a tool to alter WR to their individual taste. This method for controlling WR is FULLY SUPPORTED in the software.
In the case of Prime, they have stuck to the standard game weightings, they have not even bothered trying to use what MG supplied to reduce their outgoings, they have, as a first resort, rushed through a new and unsupported rule variant, not told their audit team, and only told players who are such pedants thatb they read and re-read terms pretty much every time they log on. This eventually blew up in their faces, and not only has it caused bad publicity, it has shaken to the core trust in the safety of funds in our Neteller accounts.
The result is likely that other competitor casinos will use this to their advantage, as XXLClub have already. Players will not hold funds with Neteller quite so readily, and although not obvious, casinos will suffer a loss of promotional take up as a result, as if the money is out of Neteller, it cannot be put back in time to take the offers up, so players will let them lapse. Players who already play will be far less inclined to try new casinos, because they could at least trust most of the ones they are currently with more. This will weaken the ability of casinos to attract players who already play, and new players could be put off if they see any bad publicity before they even start.

 

[TravelMaxx]

Not much much to be added to what vinylweatherman said.

Josh, could you please answer the following statement i made earlier:

Also the terms today still make a difference between Cash- and Bonusbalance. Does this make sense if the player isnt allowed to withdraw at any time - for me it doesnt. For me the word "Cash-Balance" indicates that it is yours and you are free to withdraw it - this is also what the cashier says.

Another point: voiding winnings is such a strong intervention that i at least would expect the casino to announce this consequence of an early withdrawal in the promotion terms. In fact the promotion terms still dont say that a early withdrawal would have the consequence that all winnings made before would be voided.

Josh, you accepted that your terms are unclear and have to be changed but still the player is the only one that has to pay for it whilst you, as a casino, even made a profit out of it - is this your interpretation of fairness?

 

[KasinoKing]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

 

[PrimeGaming]

Because we are approved.

Hi Grandmaster,

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this. I agree that we shouldn't have pulled the funds but they weren't supposed to be there to begin with. As a fair compromise as agreed to by the players, as you've seen, I've deposited the said funds back into their Casino account and in one case, a little more than they were supposed to get.

In answer to your second question. eCogra has approved both our recent T&C's, our Casino and our payout rating. We have been provided with approval from eCogra but we are only able to apply the seal at the end of this month.

Josh.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

 

[PrimeGaming]

No.

No.

Please stop trying to squeeze your issue into this thread which is of a completely different nature.

"I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that."

What don't you understand about your situation? There were no changes to the terms since our relationship began. These terms do not apply to you as they didn't exist when you first registered. Please stop asking me to credit your Casino because my decision is final.

Also, the money was never put into your Neteller account to begin with so your issue has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. I'm sorry if I'm beginning to get aggravated but I am. Mohammed and Anders had a legitimate grievance as we should never have removed the money from their Neteller account.

I feel as if you're taking advantage of the situation and trying to get a bunch of people who are angry for a different reason on your side. I'm sorry but I'm sticking to my guns in your case.

Josh.

No.

I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:



What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Sounds Good.

KasinoKing,

So be it then . As of Tuesday when I get into the office, I will have the T&C changes dated and a small note on the index page advising new players that the T&C's have recently changed... click here to view them.

Now, I've credited the players' Casino account, I'm going to change the website so the T&C changes are easy to see and I've told the support staff that once a Neteller payment has been issued, they must ask me before they intitiate a chargeback. The only future case where I will allow support to attempt a chargeback is if a Player has obviously defrauded the Casino. In all honesty, we haven't had a case like this yet and I don't imagine we'll see too many.

Having said that, if this were to happen again and I'm telling you that it won't, you're free to hold me personally responsible as I will have to approve any reversals from now on.

I hope you guys are happy with this,

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

 

[elscrabinda]

I've asked Neteller management to respond to this as personally I'm terrified. The CSR on livechat insisted that the situation could not have happened and said that if the casino did act in this way then it was illegal but obviously you can no more trust neteller livehelp than a casino one!

Hopefully they will respond soon, though she did insist that it wasn't normally neteller's policy to comment on forums.

 

[GrandMaster]

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this.

Who decides what constitutes fraud? You are not an independent arbiter in this matter. Unfortunately, some casinos like to confuse the issues of fraud and advantage play.

Interestingly, I read of a case somewhere here where a player was paid twice by mistake, and the casino said that they would not be able to recover the money from Neteller and asked the player to deposit the amount in the casino.

 

[PrimeGaming]

My final response to this thread

As much as I would like to sit here all day long each day and debate the morality of my decisions, it's simply not practical. The origin of this thread came from two players who complained their funds were removed from their Neteller accounts. This money was never meant to be credited in the first place but I did the right thing and put it back into their Casino account which would have been the default situation had our software supported our T&C's.

I can't help but feel that I'm bearing the brunt of your anger regarding things many have done before me and as much as I've tried to appease the lot of you, it's in the end, impossible to please everyone. As important as these issues are, this thread is taking up far too much of my time and since there is no governing body here other than CM, I'm forced to leave this in his capable hands.

1. I have told you that I will not initiate Neteller chargebacks in the future for any reason other than fraud. I will not change our T&C's to restrict our ability to do this. If you're not defrauding our Casino, you have nothing to worry about. Fraud = multiple accounts, using other people's accounts, etc. If I need to define Fraud for you then we have a much larger problem here.

2. I have put the players' money back into their Casino account and allowed them to play out their wagering requirements. Perhaps Mohammed and Anders aren't doing backflips over this but they are happy with the resolution and have said so in the thread. What more would like me to do exactly?

3. I have agreed to date our T&C's and to put a note on our index page notifying when recent changes have been made with a link to the new terms. I will not make this a massive road-sign on the index page though. It will sit around where the No-US Players and the Powered by Microgaming logos are. If this is unnaceptable to you I'm sorry but it's more than anyone else is doing.

4. I have not paid out Jens because she blatantly broke our T&C's, made one bet, and cashed out. This is classic promo abuse and our terms ecist to protect us from just this kind of player. Why should Jens be the only player to become an exception to this rule? Though my decision here was solely based on breaking the T&C's, I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default. Lastly, assuming our terms are like every other MGS Casino is a ridiculous excuse for not reading them. I notice how now you have our terms under a microscope but had you read them in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation. My answer is no and it's final.

5. Regarding downloading a casino first and then registering several days later, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. It's common sense that before you deposit, you should read the terms and conditions. I think it's a real stretch to think that someone would download our software, spend the time studying our T&C's, but then not even registering until several days after. I feel I've done enough to protect the players' interests if the terms are valid at the time of fun player registration. I am not going to email every fun player about changes to the terms. Also, I have a fun account with at least 20 Casinos and none of them have ever done this either. Not only that but none of them as far as I have seen are notifying people of T&C changes anywhere on the site. Nevermind the index page.

This has gone on long enough. Some of you have made some very good points and suggestions that I am going to enact. However, I am not going to spend my time each day going through this thread and becoming a doormat for the Casino industry. I think it's time for CM to step in here and decide what he thinks should be done. We're an accredited Casino here and the actions I've taken are the final actions that will be taken in this issue. If he feels that we shouldn't be accredited after this, so be it. My decisions are final and that is literally the end of this discussion. Again, I appreciate all the civilized input I've received and your suggestions will be enacted next week.

Thanks and good luck,

Josh.

 

[hunterduke]

Mohammed and Anders

Mohammed and Anders

how are you two doing on the wager requirments?
id sure like to see you both hit big and get to keep the money for real!!
good luck

 

[henryVIII]

Spear,

I know exactly who you are and who you work for so I find it even more entertaining that you're willing to dispute this fact with me. In addition, your first statement, "I hope you have the balls" hardly adds to your credibility and should make you even more embarassed given who you work for. Do they know that you're posting here? I'm curious because I wonder how they would feel about one of their employees acting like a 6 year old.

This cant be true.

Spearmaster has been extremely aggressive in demanding respect as a totally independent "voice of reason" (see English Harbour thread among many others).

That he is in fact an employee or in the pay of a casino but has failed to ever mention it just seems bizarre.

That would mean he is forcefully opinionating on threads when the casino in question might well be paying him money.

I think, in fairness to Spearmaster, he would like to have his name cleared as this would surely be the last straw as far as his remaining credibilty goes.

 

[Zoozie]

My advise for clearing the wagering requirements is actually playing TallyHo at 0.01$/line and then simply autospin for hours and hours (0.09$ pr/spin). TallyHo has 96% payout which is the best amoung the slots. I would only do this of course if I was 'way ahead' as you are on your bonus. If you need to do 2000$ wagering and you have 500$ in the account, you can live with loosing 80$ average by wagering the 2000$ with a 4% HE and you can cash out 420$. Much better than risking too much when you balance/bonus is big which for me is >8. Slots count for 100% while VP only count for 5% or 10% and BJ often only 2%. So clearing it with slots is one of the better choices and you will get low variance (near expected loss) by playing this minimum bet. If you have patient just pay 1 line(0.01$ total) and autospin for days.

Zoozie