Prime Casino remove my money from Neteller!

[Da_Gambla]

I also have the email from neteller telling me Prime have taken the money back and will happily forward that too. But the matter is closed as far as i am concerned.

Well, you originally brought this to our attention as a problem about them snatching your cashout through NetTeller.

Post title: Casino remove my money from Neteller!

That appears to have not been your issue. Your issue seems to be the same as TravelMaxx. You did not abide by the T&C's that were in effect when you deposited, the casino took your winnings and bonus, and so you then used the way they took the winnings back as your "vehicle" to get them to return these things to your casino account. Another case of a player saying "I got mine.. seeya!" Amazing how powerful money is... but at the end of the day, out of court settlements are sometimes just as telling as court ruled decisions.

Thanks for your contribution, bash, you got yours. Nonetheless, the policy is still an issue for the rest of the players who might be subject to this method of thievery in the future. If Josh posts that he doesn't necessarily believe this method is "right", then it would be in his company's best interest to STOP the practice and guarantee through an addition to their T&C's that this practice will not happen again. That will suffice until NetTeller can clarify what their position is, and where it will be in the future.

The TravelMaxx issue is becoming an extreme distraction to this discussion, but VWM is making some good points. I wish it was in its own thread, however. I'm mildly sympathetic, but not amused with how this was piggy-backed. It could be construed as a desperation attempt to sneak in a favorable decision whilst the rep is distracted with other pressing issues, or is feeling pressure to create good PR. Since that is in the back of my mind and would color anything I might say, I'll leave that discussion to VWM and stay out of it for now.

- Keith

 

[pangloss]

If you want Casinos and Neteller to not be able to do this, you must complain to Neteller in swarms and perhaps it will happen.

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


...

 

[Vesuvio]

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions, though I also doubt Neteller would have agreed to this charge back 2 weeks after the fact except in case of blatant error or fraud. The problem of damaged reputation is important because Neteller have been known to close accounts on the basis of what on-line casinos have told them (another example of Neteller having too close a relationship to casinos).

If Neteller/Prime are unwilling to disclose any details of this case it would be helpful if some of those involved could try and obtain the info held on them from Neteller. As they're registered in the Isle of Man it should be fairly straightforward and cost no more than GBP10:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Yes but we can't notify players that haven't signed up yet.

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

Your case is weaker. There is proof that the terms had changed at least by the 8th May, as this revision appears on the Casinomeister announcement of accredited status. Your deposit was on the 10th.

One point worth considering is how were players expected to know about this change, was something done to draw attention to the fact that an update had been made, such as a note in the E-mail welcoming new players?
If the casino just slipped the term in on a nonedescript arbitrary date and give no indication, it is reasonable to expect that it might take a few days for players to notice the change. It is totally unreasonable to expect players to check and recheck each and every day like a sufferer of OCD - or are players supposed to be so paranoid, because they really ARE out to trap you.

Betting the entire bankroll on a single Roulette bet is just asking for trouble nowdays, although this is not against the T & C, it makes the audit department sit up and take notice. They then use the argument that your next action was to withdraw and drop the bonus. This all comes under the modern invention by casinos of "bonus abuse", and should really be more specifically defined, as even if you had read the terms and fully understood them, you would merely have finished WR after the roulette bet instead of withdrawing, and your winnings would still have been confiscated.
This, however, is against Casinomeister rules, since the terms did not prohibit any particular playing style, nor is Roulette a banned game. It is simply a cae of the casino deciding, after the fact, that they just didn't like HOW you won 3x your initial bankroll. This is what eventually got Fortune Lounge into the Rogue pit, winnings should only be revoked for fraud, not for clever play. Fraud would be claiming the bonus twice by registering two accounts, and trying this twice & then withdrawing from the successful attempt. Because you mention download problems, could you clarify that you did NOT register both a new Flash account and Download account, and claim the bonus twice; as this would leave you with no case at all.

The fact that the T & C are misleading in the banking page means that it is immoral to use this as a "trap" to catch players out who believe this banking page is correct, being what they see at withdrawal, i.e, the LATEST expression of the rules for withdrawal. It is the casinos fault that they decided to go beyond what the software can support at the present time.
The casino should have gone back to MGS and demanded this shortcoming be fixed so that the banking screen can be adapted by operators who need to remove the standard EZBonus terms to implement this increasingly common variant.

 

[PrimeGaming]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

Lolz. Players, affiliates, webmasters and hangers on alike are complaining to YOU in swarms. Maybe you haven't noticed.

I am going to make a second and repeat request. Produce ALL the correspondence between Prime and Neteller that resulted in the subject funds (2 X accounts) being removed from Neteller and sent to Prime.

I suspect you misrepresented the position to Neteller. I suspect you told Neteller that the players had defrauded Prime Casino and obtained the winnings by unlawful means. In these circumstances not only have the players been libelled and their good character defamed, but in addition, the false pretence to Neteller in order to obtain an advantage is yet another criminal offence to be taken into account in this sorry saga.

Produce and publish the said correspondence and demonstrate that my suspicions are unfoundered. I bet you don't.


...

 

[pingpong]

My 2 cents...

Some time ago, Geisha Lounge Casino deposited a withdrawal of several hundres dollars twice to my netelleraccount. They didnt discover the mistake themselves, but honest as I am, I told them (a week later or so) that I had gotten my withdrawal x2. But instead of taking the money back directly from neteller, they asked me if I could deposit the money into my casinoaccount, so that they then could take the money. Guess they didnt had to do that if its that easy to go into a players netelleraccount and "reverse" a deposit. (There was enough funds in my netelleraccount the whole time.)

 

[GrandMaster]

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

 

[Vesuvio]

I have spoken with the head of our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Thanks for the info. This is the first time I've heard of a casino using chargeback for anything other than accidental multiple payment (so I do think your support have seriously abused the option), but this is fundamentally an issue with Neteller. Most people I know have drastically reduced the funds they keep there due to fears the company might collapse at the whim of the American prosecutors, so Neteller can't afford to keep on ignoring the wishes of the customers they have left.

 

[TravelMaxx]

If I hadn't noticed, I clearly wouldn't be here addressing the issues. You seem to be unsatisfied the way I'm handling things. Why is that exactly? What's your angle in this? The players are both happy but you continue to pour fuel into the fire.

Like I have over the last two days, make yourself familiar with how Neteller works with a Vendor account before making sweeping criminal allegations about how we do business. Some of you have very valid points but you for example are clearly picking fights for no good reason. Who are you fighting for right now exactly? The players have both said they are happy with the resolution. Why aren't you?

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first. I'll also say that this entire incident occurred as a result of us changing the T&C's. From now on, I'll put a notice on the Casino index page of changes and a date. From that point, there should be no more excuses for not reading them.

I know you'd like to believe that there is a secret conspiracy going on where my Casino is defrauding players by the millions by lying to Neteller but that's simply not the case. You're welcome to call Neteller and ask them what kind of documentation is required because there is none required.

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account. In the future, please relax your tone a bit. I'm doing my best to sort this out. Since you're keen on giving me orders, how about you take some yourself. Go contact Neteller and ask them what kind of documenation or proof a vendor needs in order to issue a chargeback. When you find out there isn't any, perhaps you can come back and apologize labeling us as liars and criminals.

Thanks,

Josh.

What you say is actually that you used a bad business practice because you had the opportunity to do so.

I think most of the people in this thread are of the opinion that these chargebacks never should take place - the only exception i could imagine is a double payment.

 

[TravelMaxx]

typos / grammar

Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

No.

I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:

It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

 

[hunterduke]

then what

ypu stated as follows

Any Casino or in fact, any vendor using Neteller can reverse a charge so long as the funds still exist in the account.

so if the funds are not there you just forget about it? or do you lie in wait and confiscate deposits?

its pretty scarey that this can happen to players if you can get into peoples ewallets can you also get your hands into our private bank accounts?

i know the goverment can confiscate funds from us but i never thought that the law of the land stated that casinos had that much power as well.

the fact that its so easy for you to do this ...no paperwork..no proof required by neteller is scary enough, the fact you actually did it is even scarier.

 

[indievertigo]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

Players that haven't registered surely don't need to be informed?
An email to all registered players would be much better outcome, or a pop up when the MG/flash casino opens saying that the ts and cs have changed, click here to read them. That way no one can miss the fact. Once registered and depositing at a casino, I for one rarely check the casino home page and im sure many others don't as well.

I understand that this may make many of you uncomfortable but it is a Neteller reality and I highly doubt we are the first people to do it. Having said that, I've issued a policy that this is never to happen again without coming across my desk first.

Your not the first to do it, as said by others it's been done in the case of multiple payments. It should never happen again full stop. If a player were to chargeback, you'd have him on every blacklist you knew about, and ban him from the casino instantly.

I have spoken with the head fof our support team and he explained it to me like this: We are able to reverse any deposit we make to a Neteller account if the funds still exist. We don't need to provide documentation of any kind and this is simply known as a "reverse chargeback".

Are you claiming that on request, with no reason provided, Neteller will charegback for you?

 

[Da_Gambla]

Too much to quote, so I won't attempt, and instead just improvise against what has been said since my last post.

First off, Josh, you are moving in the right direction, or at least you were. As of your last volley of responses however, you are standing still.

I have issue with "I have informed support to never do this unless it comes across my desk first."

Umm.. no. That's unacceptable. No one should be allowed to play 'God' or 'Higher Power' with a player's personal financial account not directly under your supervision. I know you "can", per NT's agreement to assist vendors, but you should never do it as you did here. No one is going to complain if you need to recover funds that were applied twice. That's so legitimate, it sparkles in the daylight. However, in this case, a security audit after the fact was the basis for this chargeback, and that's theft of funds on your company's part. Criminally liable? Probably not. Civilly liable? We're getting warm here... would need an attorney to sort that through. Morally liable? BINGO. And that's where it's going to cost you... the trust department.

Players in this environment are just now acclimating to having to gamble twice. Once on a game of choice, and then another gamble as to whether they will get paid. The precedent you are setting here adds a third layer. Once they have gambled on the game, then gambled on getting paid and actually got the payment, now that player has to gamble on whether you (the casino) will come back and seize the money back due to some sort of security audit after the fact.

This IS the issue. I understand the two players in this original debacle are supposedly "happy" with your offer, but be serious here... you coerced them into thinking this was their only option. I'm not playing games with words with you, sir. This is fact.

Definition for COERCE:
1. to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition.

You are the authority here. You stole their money and now control it, so you are the authority figure. They did not individually DESIRE or VOLUNTEER to do it this way.

2. to bring about through the use of force or other forms of compulsion; exact: to coerce obedience.

Ringing a bell?

3. to dominate or control, esp. by exploiting fear, anxiety, etc.: The state is based on successfully coercing the individual.

Ah yes... using fear and anxiety to control another. They feared those funds were gone forever. Once you decided to join this discussion, you had to "Sleep on it" over night, which of course brought much anxiety to the table for them.

Yes, Josh, I'm rather convinced these two players are as happy as pigs in shite over this.

You know Josh, and I probably don't have to remind you of this, but, gamblers are a funny lot. Suspicious, slightly paranoid. It comes with the territory (please review the English Harbour thread for a full understanding on how a breach of trust can erupt into a huge feeding frenzy). Now, I mean, you've just got to appreciate the humor in this... how many gamblers are going to get a nice warm and fuzzy feeling when you say "not unless it comes across my desk first"?

So then are you here to tell us that if these two bloke's case had appeared before you for approval of a chargeback, you would have told support "No, don't do it"? Or would you have approved it, leaving us to have this same exact discussion about raiding a player's private and personal account outside of your casino?

I appreciate your sincere attempt to lay the blame on NT, but YOUR COMPANY pulled the trigger. Yes... by all means, everyone with a Neteller account should complain to Neteller... LOUDLY... but you and your company are losing some serious trust with the gaming public. If you are one of us, do you deposit with Prime and risk having your money snatched after you have been paid, or are you more likely to deposit with XXLClub who have revised their T&C's guaranteeing that your withdrawl is final? That's your first clue Josh... the competition is already poised to handle this in the proper manner and make the customer feel that there is trust on both sides.

It is rather hard to have this discussion without offending you, but who the hell exactly do you think you are with this "not unless it comes across my desk"??

What happens when you are on vacation for two weeks? Does your all mighty wisdom get transferred to a "trusted" CS rep in your absense? Not acceptable.

What if the information provided to you by security or CS isn't accurate to begin with? Every green light you give would be done so by whatever evidence hits your desk. Are we so damn gullible that we are going to believe your information is always 100% spot on? Well for crissakes sir! This whole thread debacle proves that scenario otherwise! Pfft!

Help me out here Josh... surely you can come up with one or two other ways this is completely flawed?? Or are you really that confident in your perfection? I think no one is that perfect, and I don't think any one person should be in charge of pulling the trigger on stealing back money that was funded in good faith. Our issue as players is with Neteller AND YOU, not just the former. Your issue is with your security and CS team. You should ban your employees, as well as yourself, from EVER doing this again if you want the trust re-established.

Here's the bottomline. If I go buy a new television, and let's say the cashier doesn't charge me the full price, or forgets to add tax. I take my purchase home and set it aside to setup another day. Does this store have the right to come to my home and try to reposses the TV? No, they do not. Do they have the right to alter my check for the real amount? No, that's forgery. Do they have the right to upgrade the charge on my credit card? No, the new charge does not match my receipt, so that's fraud. What are they left with? A civil small claims suit, and that's IT. And trust me, that cashier either got a thorough arse-chewin' or was sent looking for another job.

You side-stepped that process Josh. After funding their NT accounts, your only real choice was to negotiate it directly with them or file a small claim and get a judge to rule in your favor. Instead, you just got down and dirty and snatched that money back when they weren't looking. That's what you did, and it was WRONG, period.

- Keith

 

[vinylweatherman]

Neteller

The admission by Prime Casino that they can take anything they pay into our Neteller accounts back without any need to give a reason makes this even more shocking than at first. The reason why Prime have been taken to task for this is that taking the funds back like that was unbelievable itself, but the suggestion that no justification was needed by Neteller was just so fanciful that it was more realistic to assume that the casino had misrepresented their case for recovery from Neteller.

Surely, in the interests of fairness, players should be able to reverse any of their Neteller deposits to a merchant provided the "funds are still there", and not have to give any reason - perhaps they can, has anyone tried?
Since they are UK/IOM registered, they have to obey consumer contract laws, and this would be an unfair contract if it gave such sweeping reversal rights to only one side, and not the other.
Even for a credit card chargeback, we have to give some kind of justification (however, the rules require the merchant to prove their innocence, not the player to prove guilt - bit ironic really ), and the merchant will have a chance to at least argue the point.

It is a problem with Neteller just as much as with casinos, as it leaves a door wide open for rogue casinos to plunder out Neteller accounts without reason if they have made payments to it.
Players who now feel uneasy about having funds sitting in Neteller are now going to be positively paranoid.
What is to stop a casino going under from pulling such a stunt with it's dying breath hoping to buy time, then folding by the time players can dispute anything, with the money vanishing with the company.

While the casino in this case quotes clear player breaches of terms, this is not legal. In order for this to stand up, the terms themselves have to be clear, in this case there are contradictory terms in different places. In this event, courts usually strike out both contradictory terms and leave the rest of the contract intact. They will also check that the terms are fair to both parties in equal measure. The abuse terms are not, they are too vague to have any real meaning. Courts will look at the "abusive play" itself, and compare this with the rules of the casino game in question, and whether the player played within the rules or cheated. Cheating at an online casino game is impossible, as the software enforces the game rules, but in a land casino, cheating is possible, such as sneaking a winning bet on after the croupier has declared "no more bets" and the result pretty much certain (roulette, for example).

The suggestion by Prime about changes to terms is a good one, but the announcement should be prominent, and more specific. It should be on part of the webpage that no player should miss, such as the download page, or a bonus claim page. It should include the date on which the terms changed, so players who know they last read them before that date will know to read them again.

The other point about reading the terms and depositing a couple of days later being unexpected, well, get real, MG casinos are ONE GIGABYTE, even on my fast Broadband it can take 5 hours to fully install the casino, thats one day gone already. Then there is registration, it ofter takes a while for the welcome E-mail. Players should wait for this, as this is where any important updates SHOULD be given to players. Once this is done, players may have problems depositing for a while, for example, Neteller keeps going down for "scheduled maintenance", without prior warning, and players may have to wait yet another day. Because this is made such an ordeal, they don't think that in those couple of days a REPUTABLE casino will slip in a new & nasty term, they will, of course, have reviewed the terms BEFORE going to the trouble of downloading and registering, and if their eventual deposit is a few days later they should not have to worry about changes for the worse.
Players who play for fun, and then register for real are caught out by the aggressive marketing found in "fun" mode. It allows registration for real without reference back to the website where any new terms or announcements will be found. As far as the player is concerned, they have already registered, and they are just converting their type of play. Most players are NOT lawyers, and do NOT nitpick like casinos tend to do nowdays, so will not be inclined to go through the terms again and again, and bombard CS with questions about minor points of rule or grammar. Perhaps in the present climate they should be doing this, and this will cripple CS and service will suffer. CS often can't answer such questions as they don't even understand what the question is about. This is not fantasy, this happens on a regular basis in relation to promotions. Again and again I have had unanswered E-mails, and when I finally get annoyed and phone, I am invariably told a tale of overwhelmed CS because of countless queries about the terms of something or other.

This point was raised:-

Winnings on bets made from the Cash Account are sent directly to the Cash Account. However, if you have opted in for the bonus,

you will be unable to withdraw any amount from your account until you've either met the wagering requirements or played through the bonus.

Many would understand this, but it is not direct. It used legalised language to express the concept, presumably in order to prevent smarta$$es from finding loopholes, however, a few people may be unable to see the wood from the trees in this, and not mentally translate this as:-
"You may not request a withdrawal until you have met the wagering requirements, or until you have played your balance to zero."

The problem phrase is "played through the bonus". "Playing through", can have other meanings than having zeroed out, such as promotions where you have to "play through" your deposit a number of times in order to receive a benefit from a promotion. the most common being the 1x playthrough of a deposit to get a bonus related to it. This leads to the interpretation of "played through the bonus", as meaning to have made wagers to at least the value of the bonus funds. These kinds of confusions tend to affect players whose grasp of English is not so good, or who have learned it as a second language. Native English speakers would most likely grasp the correct meaning by context, and experienced players would grasp the correct meaning through experience of the industry. Unfortunately, separating the genuine misinterpretation from the smarta$$ is not easy, so it is best to ensure the potential for misinterpretation is not there in the first place.

While we bombard Neteller about their shortcomings, it is time for casinos to bombard Microgaming about the lack of support the software has for this EZBonus rule variant.

Although players really should NOT just assume all MG casinos are the same, Microgaming have attempted, by implementing the EZBonus, to give players a common standard that they can understand for all MG casinos. MG had this idea that the players would then be spared the problems arising from different terms at different casinos, and gave casino operators the ability to change game weightings as a tool to alter WR to their individual taste. This method for controlling WR is FULLY SUPPORTED in the software.
In the case of Prime, they have stuck to the standard game weightings, they have not even bothered trying to use what MG supplied to reduce their outgoings, they have, as a first resort, rushed through a new and unsupported rule variant, not told their audit team, and only told players who are such pedants thatb they read and re-read terms pretty much every time they log on. This eventually blew up in their faces, and not only has it caused bad publicity, it has shaken to the core trust in the safety of funds in our Neteller accounts.
The result is likely that other competitor casinos will use this to their advantage, as XXLClub have already. Players will not hold funds with Neteller quite so readily, and although not obvious, casinos will suffer a loss of promotional take up as a result, as if the money is out of Neteller, it cannot be put back in time to take the offers up, so players will let them lapse. Players who already play will be far less inclined to try new casinos, because they could at least trust most of the ones they are currently with more. This will weaken the ability of casinos to attract players who already play, and new players could be put off if they see any bad publicity before they even start.

 

[TravelMaxx]

Not much much to be added to what vinylweatherman said.

Josh, could you please answer the following statement i made earlier:

Also the terms today still make a difference between Cash- and Bonusbalance. Does this make sense if the player isnt allowed to withdraw at any time - for me it doesnt. For me the word "Cash-Balance" indicates that it is yours and you are free to withdraw it - this is also what the cashier says.

Another point: voiding winnings is such a strong intervention that i at least would expect the casino to announce this consequence of an early withdrawal in the promotion terms. In fact the promotion terms still dont say that a early withdrawal would have the consequence that all winnings made before would be voided.

Josh, you accepted that your terms are unclear and have to be changed but still the player is the only one that has to pay for it whilst you, as a casino, even made a profit out of it - is this your interpretation of fairness?

 

[KasinoKing]

Vinylweatherman,

Listen, I really appreciate your argument here but it is very difficult to inform players that haven't even registered as fun players, that our T&C's have changed. However, I see the problem and have figured out a way we can deal with this problem. On the index page, the next time I change the terms, I will write some text near the copywrite information that says something like: Our T&C's have changed recently. Please click here to read them.

How do you would you feel about me doing that and then dating each of the T&C's as they're changed. It's obvious this won't be the last time they are changed since there are obviously some serious issues with them that need to be resolved.

However, this player did register their fun account well before the terms changed and it's the player's responsibility to read the terms at the time of initial signup. Having said that, I find it very hard to believe that a player would come to our site, read the terms, and then not even download the software until several days after. Jens is also not claiming that she assumed the terms were the old one, only that she assumed that we were on the same ClearPlay policy as other MGS Casinos. I really don't feel I should be held responsible for what people assume.

What do you think?

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

 

[PrimeGaming]

Because we are approved.

Hi Grandmaster,

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this. I agree that we shouldn't have pulled the funds but they weren't supposed to be there to begin with. As a fair compromise as agreed to by the players, as you've seen, I've deposited the said funds back into their Casino account and in one case, a little more than they were supposed to get.

In answer to your second question. eCogra has approved both our recent T&C's, our Casino and our payout rating. We have been provided with approval from eCogra but we are only able to apply the seal at the end of this month.

Josh.

How about simply never doing it again?

How would you feel if a player charged back his credit card deposit at Prime Casino?

Another question: why is there a reference to ecogra at the end of the T&C, you are not ecogra approved?

 

[PrimeGaming]

No.

No.

Please stop trying to squeeze your issue into this thread which is of a completely different nature.

"I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that."

What don't you understand about your situation? There were no changes to the terms since our relationship began. These terms do not apply to you as they didn't exist when you first registered. Please stop asking me to credit your Casino because my decision is final.

Also, the money was never put into your Neteller account to begin with so your issue has nothing to do with this thread whatsoever. I'm sorry if I'm beginning to get aggravated but I am. Mohammed and Anders had a legitimate grievance as we should never have removed the money from their Neteller account.

I feel as if you're taking advantage of the situation and trying to get a bunch of people who are angry for a different reason on your side. I'm sorry but I'm sticking to my guns in your case.

Josh.

No.

I didnt realize that the terms changed. In fact i still dont know what were the changes made. You told me, that you made some and i accepted that.

And yes, my interpretation of your terms were that i could withdraw my cash balance at any point and as i said - your terms still are everything but clear, you obviously realized that yourself:



What makes me angry is that you realize that there are some serious issues with them but only see my fault and not your own.

You have the opportunity to recredit not only my deposit but also my winnings and the bonus to my account and give me a chance to satisfy your requirements. To void my winning is strongest possible intervention especially because it were your terms and your cashier that were (and are) unclear and caused this situation.

 

[PrimeGaming]

Sounds Good.

KasinoKing,

So be it then . As of Tuesday when I get into the office, I will have the T&C changes dated and a small note on the index page advising new players that the T&C's have recently changed... click here to view them.

Now, I've credited the players' Casino account, I'm going to change the website so the T&C changes are easy to see and I've told the support staff that once a Neteller payment has been issued, they must ask me before they intitiate a chargeback. The only future case where I will allow support to attempt a chargeback is if a Player has obviously defrauded the Casino. In all honesty, we haven't had a case like this yet and I don't imagine we'll see too many.

Having said that, if this were to happen again and I'm telling you that it won't, you're free to hold me personally responsible as I will have to approve any reversals from now on.

I hope you guys are happy with this,

Josh.

1. Dating T&C's
Excellent idea. If only ALL casinos would do that I'm sure it would save a huge amount of problems.
It would also save me one hell of a lot of time when I update my website. Last month I re-checked all the T&C's of all 100+ casinos on my site to make sure I have the current details.
Can you even imagine how tedious, boring, time-consuming & annoying that was?

2. Delay between download & registering.
I have done this regularly. Downloading an MG casino is a real ball-ache so I often do it well in advance of actually signing up. I have at least 3 such casinos on my PC right now, which have been there over 6-weeks (one has been there over a year!).
However, you are totally correct and as I keep banging on about; players MUST check, and preferably record, the current T&C's on the day they make their deposit.
It's just common sense and again, it can avoid grief later.

Just my 2c... KK

 

[elscrabinda]

I've asked Neteller management to respond to this as personally I'm terrified. The CSR on livechat insisted that the situation could not have happened and said that if the casino did act in this way then it was illegal but obviously you can no more trust neteller livehelp than a casino one!

Hopefully they will respond soon, though she did insist that it wasn't normally neteller's policy to comment on forums.

 

[GrandMaster]

I'm simply not going to do it again. However, I have no intention of changing the t&c's to this effect because there are many reasons why we would want to in the case of Fraud for example. In addition, just because you haven't heard about it doesn't mean that we're the only Casino who has done this.

Who decides what constitutes fraud? You are not an independent arbiter in this matter. Unfortunately, some casinos like to confuse the issues of fraud and advantage play.

Interestingly, I read of a case somewhere here where a player was paid twice by mistake, and the casino said that they would not be able to recover the money from Neteller and asked the player to deposit the amount in the casino.

 

[PrimeGaming]

My final response to this thread

As much as I would like to sit here all day long each day and debate the morality of my decisions, it's simply not practical. The origin of this thread came from two players who complained their funds were removed from their Neteller accounts. This money was never meant to be credited in the first place but I did the right thing and put it back into their Casino account which would have been the default situation had our software supported our T&C's.

I can't help but feel that I'm bearing the brunt of your anger regarding things many have done before me and as much as I've tried to appease the lot of you, it's in the end, impossible to please everyone. As important as these issues are, this thread is taking up far too much of my time and since there is no governing body here other than CM, I'm forced to leave this in his capable hands.

1. I have told you that I will not initiate Neteller chargebacks in the future for any reason other than fraud. I will not change our T&C's to restrict our ability to do this. If you're not defrauding our Casino, you have nothing to worry about. Fraud = multiple accounts, using other people's accounts, etc. If I need to define Fraud for you then we have a much larger problem here.

2. I have put the players' money back into their Casino account and allowed them to play out their wagering requirements. Perhaps Mohammed and Anders aren't doing backflips over this but they are happy with the resolution and have said so in the thread. What more would like me to do exactly?

3. I have agreed to date our T&C's and to put a note on our index page notifying when recent changes have been made with a link to the new terms. I will not make this a massive road-sign on the index page though. It will sit around where the No-US Players and the Powered by Microgaming logos are. If this is unnaceptable to you I'm sorry but it's more than anyone else is doing.

4. I have not paid out Jens because she blatantly broke our T&C's, made one bet, and cashed out. This is classic promo abuse and our terms ecist to protect us from just this kind of player. Why should Jens be the only player to become an exception to this rule? Though my decision here was solely based on breaking the T&C's, I'm even less inclined to make an exception since she decided to drag her issue into an angry mob in the hopes you'd all agree with her by default. Lastly, assuming our terms are like every other MGS Casino is a ridiculous excuse for not reading them. I notice how now you have our terms under a microscope but had you read them in the first place, we wouldn't be in this situation. My answer is no and it's final.

5. Regarding downloading a casino first and then registering several days later, I'm sorry but that's ridiculous. It's common sense that before you deposit, you should read the terms and conditions. I think it's a real stretch to think that someone would download our software, spend the time studying our T&C's, but then not even registering until several days after. I feel I've done enough to protect the players' interests if the terms are valid at the time of fun player registration. I am not going to email every fun player about changes to the terms. Also, I have a fun account with at least 20 Casinos and none of them have ever done this either. Not only that but none of them as far as I have seen are notifying people of T&C changes anywhere on the site. Nevermind the index page.

This has gone on long enough. Some of you have made some very good points and suggestions that I am going to enact. However, I am not going to spend my time each day going through this thread and becoming a doormat for the Casino industry. I think it's time for CM to step in here and decide what he thinks should be done. We're an accredited Casino here and the actions I've taken are the final actions that will be taken in this issue. If he feels that we shouldn't be accredited after this, so be it. My decisions are final and that is literally the end of this discussion. Again, I appreciate all the civilized input I've received and your suggestions will be enacted next week.

Thanks and good luck,

Josh.

 

[hunterduke]

Mohammed and Anders

Mohammed and Anders

how are you two doing on the wager requirments?
id sure like to see you both hit big and get to keep the money for real!!
good luck

 

[henryVIII]

Spear,

I know exactly who you are and who you work for so I find it even more entertaining that you're willing to dispute this fact with me. In addition, your first statement, "I hope you have the balls" hardly adds to your credibility and should make you even more embarassed given who you work for. Do they know that you're posting here? I'm curious because I wonder how they would feel about one of their employees acting like a 6 year old.

This cant be true.

Spearmaster has been extremely aggressive in demanding respect as a totally independent "voice of reason" (see English Harbour thread among many others).

That he is in fact an employee or in the pay of a casino but has failed to ever mention it just seems bizarre.

That would mean he is forcefully opinionating on threads when the casino in question might well be paying him money.

I think, in fairness to Spearmaster, he would like to have his name cleared as this would surely be the last straw as far as his remaining credibilty goes.

 

[Zoozie]

My advise for clearing the wagering requirements is actually playing TallyHo at 0.01$/line and then simply autospin for hours and hours (0.09$ pr/spin). TallyHo has 96% payout which is the best amoung the slots. I would only do this of course if I was 'way ahead' as you are on your bonus. If you need to do 2000$ wagering and you have 500$ in the account, you can live with loosing 80$ average by wagering the 2000$ with a 4% HE and you can cash out 420$. Much better than risking too much when you balance/bonus is big which for me is >8. Slots count for 100% while VP only count for 5% or 10% and BJ often only 2%. So clearing it with slots is one of the better choices and you will get low variance (near expected loss) by playing this minimum bet. If you have patient just pay 1 line(0.01$ total) and autospin for days.

Zoozie