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Pokerstars, Absolutepoker, Ub and Fulltilt Seized By Doj

What does the FBI warning have to do with players in Norway? The site is up and running for everyone outside of the USA. There are 150k+ players at any given time.

The sites were not shut down. DoJ indicted people involved with sites and processors and poker sites in turn stopped allowing US players.

Well...pokerstars.com domain is "closed" from Norway as well. I only see the FBI warning if I try to enter Pokerstars.com from Norway.

But yes, Pokerstars.NET is valid for players. My point of course, is that the TV commercials here are still promoting Pokerstars.COM. I just find that a bit funny. New players from Norway who follows the adress (from the commercial) will only find a warning from FBI.

Shut down? I did not say that Pokerstars was shut down or anything like that. Don`t know where you got that from.
 
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FWIW,
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:
Simon Goodley
guardian.co.uk, Monday 18 April 2011 20.47 BST


Shares in UK online gaming companies have soared after the websites of some US rivals were shut following a government crackdown on illegal gambling.

Bwin.party shares shot up 30%, with Playtech and 888 Holdings up 8% and 19% respectively, as investors bet on high-value players, affiliates and processors switching to safer sites.

The big wins for the European companies, which do not operate in the US, followed moves by the US government on Friday to charge the founders of three of the world's largest online poker companies. In what amounted to the most drastic crackdown on electronic gambling since Congress banned the industry in America in 2006, the government accused the creators of Full Tilt Poker, PokerStars and Absolute Poker of illegal gambling, money laundering and bank fraud. (
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)
 
I havn't played Poker in years, but after losing so much on slots I decided to join Full Tilt of Wedensday before I heard of this news. I managed a few withdrawals and although I'm not from the US I was definitely worried that it might affect payment processing.

Thankfully the money was paid into my bank this morning so I guess it is safe enough to continue playing...

btw, Can anyone tell me the odds of losing with 4 of a kind to a straight flush? this happened to me on my first day but I thought such things were very unlikely to ever happen...
 

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I saw this on webinar on facebook and signed up to attend. Anyone else planning to?

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Panelists:
Michael Caselli, Editor in Chief, iGaming Business
Peter Bertilsson, Managing Director, Ongame
Joseph M. Kelly, Ph.D., J.D, Associate, Catania Gaming Consultants
Chris Krafcik, Editor At Large, GamblingCompliance
Joe Brennan Jr., Chairman, iMEGA
And More TBC
 
I saw this on webinar on facebook and signed up to attend. Anyone else planning to?

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Panelists:
Michael Caselli, Editor in Chief, iGaming Business
Peter Bertilsson, Managing Director, Ongame
Joseph M. Kelly, Ph.D., J.D, Associate, Catania Gaming Consultants
Chris Krafcik, Editor At Large, GamblingCompliance
Joe Brennan Jr., Chairman, iMEGA
And More TBC

I'll be there :D
 
I saw this on webinar on facebook and signed up to attend. Anyone else planning to?

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Panelists:
Michael Caselli, Editor in Chief, iGaming Business
Peter Bertilsson, Managing Director, Ongame
Joseph M. Kelly, Ph.D., J.D, Associate, Catania Gaming Consultants
Chris Krafcik, Editor At Large, GamblingCompliance
Joe Brennan Jr., Chairman, iMEGA
And More TBC

That link doesn't work for me.... Sounds interesting though!
 
I havn't played Poker in years, but after losing so much on slots I decided to join Full Tilt of Wedensday before I heard of this news. I managed a few withdrawals and although I'm not from the US I was definitely worried that it might affect payment processing.

Thankfully the money was paid into my bank this morning so I guess it is safe enough to continue playing...

btw, Can anyone tell me the odds of losing with 4 of a kind to a straight flush? this happened to me on my first day but I thought such things were very unlikely to ever happen...

I don't play poker but you can't have been far off a Bad Beat jackpot there I would have thought!
 
Me thinks I found a piece of the puzzle that provides a bigger picture:

...The DoJ will insist on a guilty plea to something, which might kill the operators’ chances of getting licensed when American laws change. And no amount of money will buy them the right to open up again without a change in the law. ...
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That theory goes back to them killing off the major competitors prior to law being passed allowing online poker. Personally I don't see it. I think they will have been investigating this for a long time and can see a nice big fat fine at the end of the tunnel, the fact that they will shut them down in the states is a bonus point.

How UB are still in business though after the superuser scandal i'll never know, some people are far too trusting of a faceless company!
 
Who knows? I'm inclined to believe that Bryan is on the right track - there are much bigger dollars to ultimately reel in (billions, in fact) than just a few hundred millions in DoJ fines or 'settlements' that might never be paid.

I can't see Pokerstars and Full Tilt going down without a major fight on this one...it's going to be very informative and interesting to see how they respond to this in a legal sense - you can bet they have squads of the best lawyers that money can buy poring over the indictment right now.

BTW the Antiguans issued a statement today condemning this move and hinting that they intend to go back to the WTO having achieved little that is useful in their negotiations with the US Trade officials.
 
If you missed the webinar it is now archived and can be viewed online. Audio isn't 100% unfortunately but it works well enough that it isn't very annoying as we had almost a 1,000 people online which is huge for the software.

Just click "view webinar"
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If you missed the webinar it is now archived and can be viewed online. Audio isn't 100% unfortunately but it works well enough that it isn't very annoying as we had almost a 1,000 people online which is huge for the software.

Just click "view webinar"
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Thanks Alex. It was an interesting discussion.

I would recommend to anyone interested in this subject to take an hour out and listen to the archived version.

The echoes didn't really bother me BTW. I understand it's the tubes getting overloaded :p
 
Have you got a link to this? :)

It was an actual press statement from the Antiguans - this will give you the sense of it:

THE INDICTMENTS; AN OLD FOE REACTS (Update)

"US authorities continue to prosecute non-domestic suppliers of remote gaming services in clear contravention of International law," says Antiguan minister.

The Antiguan Minister for Finance and the Economy, the Honourable Harold Lovell, has expressed his disappointment in what he claims is "...the latest effort by the American authorities to shut off competition in remote gaming in violation of International law."

In a statement Tuesday, the minister said: “I am concerned that at this point in time United States authorities continue to prosecute non-domestic suppliers of remote gaming services in clear contravention of International law.

"I am not aware of any other situation where a member of the World Trade Organisation has subjected persons to criminal prosecution under circumstances where the WTO has expressly ruled that to do so is in breach of an International treaty.”

Antigua’s legal counsel in its dispute with the US at the WTO, Mark Mendel, commented: “The WTO ruled that these kinds of laws criminalizing the provision of remote gaming services are contrary to the obligations of the United States under the WTO agreements.

"The United States, being a very heavy user of the WTO rules to its own benefit, simply cannot continue to prosecute persons for engaging in legitimate International commerce.”

Mendel further noted: “What the United States has attempted to cloak as a moral issue is now clearly nothing but economic protectionism at its worst.

"Rather than engaging with Antigua and the world gaming community to reach a reasonable accommodation on this relatively new but now globalised form of economic commerce, the United States has instead determined to protect its domestic gaming interests regardless of International legal obligations.

"This is very hard to reconcile not only with its pronouncements regarding the imperative of other countries to strictly observe their WTO trade obligations but also with stated official United States government policy of adherence to the rule of law.”

In a protracted dispute process, Antigua won its dispute over online gambling in the WTO some years ago (see previous InfoPowa reports). Since then the islanders have spent considerable time and effort trying to reach a compromise with American authorities that would recognise the legitimacy conferred by the WTO judgement with respect to Antiguan remote gaming services.

The government's statement concludes: "Last weeks’ indictments and other recent developments would seem to indicate that the United States is still unwilling or unable to tackle the issue of offshore remote gaming services in a mature and legally compliant fashion.

“At this time we are examining all of the options we have against the United States as a result of the WTO decision. We are confident that the WTO rulings have significant strength and we are now looking into ways to capitalise on that in order to achieve our objectives.”

In a parting shot, Mendel comments: “Given the time that has been spent by the Antiguan government on sincere attempts to negotiate a reasonable settlement with the United States, and the very meagre results that have come of those discussions, it might be time for Antigua to go back to the WTO and compel American compliance with the rulings that this very small country fought so hard for and deserves to see implemented.”
 
Maybe now with such major players involved the whole issue will get resolved. FTP and Stars certainly won't lie down and accept a fine so here's to hoping the WTO can step in and prove they've been doing nothing wrong.

However, that said, the banking fraud charges are totally seperate to the illegal gambling ones. If they have been processing uncoded transactions then they're in a world of brown stuff.
 
Maybe now with such major players involved the whole issue will get resolved. FTP and Stars certainly won't lie down and accept a fine so here's to hoping the WTO can step in and prove they've been doing nothing wrong.

However, that said, the banking fraud charges are totally seperate to the illegal gambling ones. If they have been processing uncoded transactions then they're in a world of brown stuff.

Surely, businesses as big as FT and PS have a league of top notch lawyers and had advice and direction from them prior to all of this. (?)
 
Both companies have stressed repeatedly over the years that they have taken legal advice from top US experts and operate in the belief that they are within the law.

Whether that will be sufficient to win against DoJ evidence of banking fraud etc is one of the more interesting aspects of this matter.
 
Both companies have stressed repeatedly over the years that they have taken legal advice from top US experts and operate in the belief that they are within the law.

Whether that will be sufficient to win against DoJ evidence of banking fraud etc is one of the more interesting aspects of this matter.

Precisely. If it was legal to operate in the states then the really big boys like bet365, Bwin and Party would still be in the market. It's illegal to gamble in China but these sites get around the problem, so the US must have some very specific terms in place to deter the operators. Either that or the fact there is no extradition with China makes a big difference, who knows!
 
Mendel further noted: “What the United States has attempted to cloak as a moral issue is now clearly nothing but economic protectionism at its worst.
Needs to be repeated...
This Department of Justice attack is NOT about protecting Kids and the mentally challenged... it is (and has always been) all about protecting PROFITS.

Once again the DOJ shows it true color GREEN...

The Doj says playing Poker is a Crime... I say..... SHOW ME THE LAW!

Where is this federal law that makes playing poker illegal?

The DOJ are liars and what they are doing is CRIMINAL.
 
Maybe I am a little dense here, but what is the difference between the poker sites that were seized, and a subscription site like PurePlay Poker? You are still paying to play poker.

Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks.
LH
 
Maybe I am a little dense here, but what is the difference between the poker sites that were seized, and a subscription site like PurePlay Poker? You are still paying to play poker.

Can someone explain this to me?

Thanks.
LH

PurePlay, WPT Club and other similar sites have a business model that they claim gets around US legality hassles by operating as a subscription club. As far as I know this has not yet been tested judicially.

Players pay a monthly subscription to participate in tournaments for prizes.

Several of these 'clubs' have gone to the wall.
 
The politics are limp on this... as usual the politicos are unable to do the peoples business.

GOP standing firm on Web gambling ban.
(More like standing firm against your personal freedom.)
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This Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) sounds like a real freedom hating bible banging douch bag.
 
PurePlay, WPT Club and other similar sites have a business model that they claim gets around US legality hassles by operating as a subscription club. As far as I know this has not yet been tested judicially.

Players pay a monthly subscription to participate in tournaments for prizes.

Several of these 'clubs' have gone to the wall.

They (subscription sites) bill themselves as contest/sweepstakes sites, it is free to play, if you want a VIP membership, you can pay, but they also have to offer an alternative free way to enter into the VIP games, which is generally sending in a postcard with required information. In other words, you can play every single game they offer without 'gambling' any of your money.
 
How can the DOJ allow the poker sites to return/refund millions of dollars that were allegedly gained through illegal means?
Now, I know someone is going to say that it wasn't the poker sites money, it was player money in their own acct. With this in mind if gambling online, specifically poker, is illegal (as alleged in the DOJ indictment).
Does it not stand to reason that the money in players acct's. was being used for an ILLEGAL activity and cannot be returned.
With this about face by the DOJ on releasing PLAYER'S, THAT WERE ENGAGED IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES, MONEY.
In my non-legal opinion, they are CLEARLY stating that ALL ONLINE GAMBLING AND POKER are legal. Otherwise how can they return illegal activity money.

Does any of this make sense? If I'm way off base, Help me understand.
 
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"My concern is that HR 1174, the Internet Gambling Regulation, Consumer Protection, and Enforcement Act, is effectively an open invitation for the 'Bank of Al Qaeda,'" Thackston wrote.
Unbelievable stupidity. It's hard to fathom that any of these morons have a clue what's going on. These are frightening times in the States. None of these politicians care about the people they represent; they are merely puppets for the puppet master.

"Meet the new boss...same as the old boss..."

How can the DOJ allow the poker sites to return/refund millions of dollars that were allegedly gained through illegal means?
I haven't a clue. Isn't this laundered and "ill gotten gained" money?? :what:

How in the hell are they supposed to send the funds back? Send it via a "Surf Shop" refund?

You can't make this shit up. This is amazing - and amazingly embarrassing for any American.
 
How can the DOJ allow the poker sites to return/refund millions of dollars that were allegedly gained through illegal means?
Now, I know someone is going to say that it wasn't the poker sites money, it was player money in their own acct. With this in mind if gambling on line, specifically poker, is illegal (as alleged in the DOJ indictment).
Does it not stand to reason that the money in players acct's. was being used for an ILLEGAL activity and cannot be returned.
With this about face by the DOJ on releasing PLAYER'S, THAT WERE ENGAGED IN ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES, MONEY.
In my non-legal opinion, they are CLEARLY stating that ALL ONLINE GAMBLING AND POKER are legal. Otherwise how can they return illegal activity money.

Does any of this make sense? If I'm way off base, Help me understand.

You are not off base. Everything about this subject is off base. Our government is actually acting like thugs in their political posturing over Internet poker and gambling. They are OUR hired help, yet they do NOT act with our wants in mind.

I am sickened by this latest slap, especially after D.C. decided to make poker legal there? For them only? Not the regular USA citizens?

I am so grateful for the members here that help the rest of us understand it all, day after day. It is way beyond my scope.
 
words of the day

I love this part by CM:

"How in the hell are they supposed to send the funds back? Send it via a "Surf Shop" refund?

You can't make this shit up. This is amazing - and amazingly embarrassing for any American."

You are right, you really can't make this up, no one would believe it.
 
The politics are limp on this... as usual the politicos are unable to do the peoples business.

GOP standing firm on Web gambling ban.
(More like standing firm against your personal freedom.)
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This Spencer Bachus (R-Ala.) sounds like a real freedom hating bible banging douch bag.

He is... and totally clueless about the internet and poker and gambling (he only seems to 'know' they're EEE-villle).... he's right up there with the 'clogged tubes' guy. The man is an embarrassment to my state and our country. Just so you guys know... I have never, EVER voted for the ignoramus.
 
Both companies have stressed repeatedly over the years that they have taken legal advice from top US experts and operate in the belief that they are within the law.

Whether that will be sufficient to win against DoJ evidence of banking fraud etc is one of the more interesting aspects of this matter.

I don't think the absence of the other big global rooms and the online casino giants in the last few years has as much to do with law as it has to do with re-entry and the threats made by the feds... The government has made it clear that in a post-regulatory model, only those that did not sell bets or get paid vigorish for hosting games will get easy entry licensing... The alternative was huge $ penalties... And so, to keep their names on the top of the list, Party, and ipoker and all the other big ones left...

Seemed like a reasonable choice now and then... Who would have envisioned a country reeling in debt would continue to pay the inevitable social costs of gaming, and the cost of bets leaving the US economy, without regulation that would subsidize the former and eliminate the latter for this amount of time?? Plus, given FTP and Pokerstars unwillingness to leave, it seemed likely that the two global leaders might position themselves out of easy re-entry... And that seems more likely than ever.
 
So, in one WEEK we go from the seizure to players getting their money back. Why are the DoJ not so concerned about players getting their money back from EWX - why can't they "unseize" EWX so that funds can be returned to US customers, and their accounts closed, in an orderly fashion.

This is the kind of probing question the media should be asking of the DoJ. Are they treating this seizure as some kind of special case, and if so, why?
 
This latest development also raises other questions.

If the DoJ is right in its assertion that online poker is illegal as defined so imprecisely by the UIGEA, is it not a paradox that it is now entering into an agreement with sites it claims were unlawfully operating to make more 'unlawful' transactions in repatriating US funds?

And are Pokerstars and Full Tilt implicitly acknowledging the jurisdiction and authority over their seized .com domains in reaching a 'temporary use' agreement with the DoJ?

There's also some confusion over whether these monies are going back to the players directly, or whether the US government wants them - the latest Full Tilt statement notes“the government has not agreed to permit any of the seized player funds to be returned to the players.”

But the DoJ's Preet Bharara says: “no individual player accounts were ever frozen or restrained, and each implicated poker company has at all times been free to reimburse any player's deposited funds."

That could be difficult, given that the DoJ has pretty much decimated the processor channels in the States and almost completed the annihilation with its recent actions against individuals and banks.
 
Article being considered

I just received a request for some more information on this issue from my newspaper editor. (I sent in a letter as requested by the PPA). They are considering running my letter in the editors section which is read by many.

The reason for this is that we have had local raids on our sweepstakes parlors and they have been closed down. They have closed down poker charities given by our own local police force by the FBI. So, our area is being hit hard by anti-gambling raids..we have had homes invaded for poker games recently..

Hopefully, they do run my letter and bring this to the attention of thousands to show how absolutely ridiculous the government has gotten..I will post the letter if it is printed.

The papers are becoming interested!!!

.
 
Payments

This isnt really about gambling, it's about how payments are indentifed.

Obviously gambling payments arent allowed by many banks/processors, they weren't before UIGEA, but on the onus of each bank.

What crime has been committed here is more than gambling, in fact more serious (but perfectly norm for US operating brands), they misinterept the payment so that 100 buck deposit shows up as a nice pair of shoes on your statement. That's the bigger crime according to the documents submitted. By owning a bank they just made it easier to do, but way more riskier being on US soil.

It's really hard to see these top 3 being able to "go back to normal", and the issue could become bigger if smaller operators looking to take advantage of the space step up - then it could become a single issue about gambling.
 
just read this from ful tilts face book page

Full Tilt Poker's Photos - Press Release: April 20, 2011
Photo 1 of 1 Back to Album · Full Tilt Poker's Photos · Full Tilt Poker's Profile.
Click on people's faces in the photo to tag them.

.Full Tilt Poker Regains The Use Of Its Worldwide Domain Name

Dublin Ireland (April 20, 2011) - Full Tilt Poker™ is pleased to announce that it has reached an agreement with the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York to regain the use of its worldwide domain name, www.fulltiltpoker.com.

Although players in the United States will not be permitted to engage in real-money play, the agreement expressly allows for real-money play outside of the United States.

In addition, the agreement represents an important first step towards returning funds to U.S. players because it allows Full Tilt Poker to utilize its domain to facilitate the withdrawal of player funds. But, unfortunately, there remain significant practical and legal impediments to returning funds to players in the immediate future. As a result of the recent enforcement action, there exists no authorized U.S. payment channel through which to make refunds; Full Tilt Poker has no accounting of the millions of dollars of player funds that were seized by the government; and the government has not agreed to permit any of the seized player funds to be returned to the players. Finally, there are numerous legal and jurisdictional issues that must be considered before poker winnings can be paid out to players throughout the United States. While Full Tilt Poker continues to believe that online poker is not illegal under federal law or in 49 states, the indictment and civil forfeiture action filed last Friday require Full Tilt Poker to proceed with caution in this area.

Notwithstanding these issues, Full Tilt Poker is ready to work diligently with the United States Attorney’s Office in the Southern District of New York to try and resolve these issues and to get players their money back as soon as possible.

For more information, please call +442032877138
 
Full Tilt Poker's Photos - Press Release: April 20, 2011
Photo 1 of 1 Back to Album · Full Tilt Poker's Photos · Full Tilt Poker's Profile.
Click on people's faces in the photo to tag them.

.Full Tilt Poker Regains The Use Of Its Worldwide Domain Name

Dublin Ireland (April 20, 2011) - Full Tilt Poker™ is pleased to announce that it has reached an agreement with the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of New York to regain the use of its worldwide domain name, www.fulltiltpoker.com.

Although players in the United States will not be permitted to engage in real-money play, the agreement expressly allows for real-money play outside of the United States.

In addition, the agreement represents an important first step towards returning funds to U.S. players because it allows Full Tilt Poker to utilize its domain to facilitate the withdrawal of player funds. But, unfortunately, there remain significant practical and legal impediments to returning funds to players in the immediate future. As a result of the recent enforcement action, there exists no authorized U.S. payment channel through which to make refunds; Full Tilt Poker has no accounting of the millions of dollars of player funds that were seized by the government; and the government has not agreed to permit any of the seized player funds to be returned to the players. Finally, there are numerous legal and jurisdictional issues that must be considered before poker winnings can be paid out to players throughout the United States. While Full Tilt Poker continues to believe that online poker is not illegal under federal law or in 49 states, the indictment and civil forfeiture action filed last Friday require Full Tilt Poker to proceed with caution in this area.

Notwithstanding these issues, Full Tilt Poker is ready to work diligently with the United States Attorney’s Office in the Southern District of New York to try and resolve these issues and to get players their money back as soon as possible.

For more information, please call +442032877138

Interesting that Full Tilt says the seized monies were "player funds." Seems to me the monies were Full Tilt funds until the players were paid the money into their bank/with check, etc.
 
I've been saying for years that anyone who keeps a significant portion of their net worth in an online poker account, including FullTilt and Stars, is absolutely nuts. Just a quick glance at confiscation threads at 2+2 will reveal why, there are many dolphins in those nets and the poker rooms don't always care, or budge.

I sincerely hope this gets resolved and players get their money back as I imagine they will, similar to the neteller spectacle. But with Full Tilt now claiming that players' funds were siezed and thus appearing to not accept liability unfortunately the poker community at large may have that point drivin home, at least in the short term.
 

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