Playtech rigged slots?

[thelawnet]

It's basically a slots version of video poker.

For example, if you play Deuces Wild video poker and you get dealt 2h, 6h, 3h, 7s, tc, you'd hold the 2 and toss the other four cards.

With this game if you are dealt:

blank, wild, blank

then it's very obvious that you hold the wild and toss (don't hold) the blanks.

Obviously the more blanks that occur, the lower the return, all else being equal. In this case it is clear that there are more blanks in real play than in free play mode, and therefore the return of the game in real play is lower than in free play. Not only that, but the correct strategy for free play is not necessarily the correct strategy for real play, since the odds are different, and therefore if you practice with a certain strategy in free play mode and win, and then transfer that to real play, it can be expensive.

 

[Nifty29]

It's basically a slots version of video poker.

For example, if you play Deuces Wild video poker and you get dealt 2h, 6h, 3h, 7s, tc, you'd hold the 2 and toss the other four cards.

With this game if you are dealt:

blank, wild, blank

then it's very obvious that you hold the wild and toss (don't hold) the blanks.

Obviously the more blanks that occur, the lower the return, all else being equal. In this case it is clear that there are more blanks in real play than in free play mode, and therefore the return of the game in real play is lower than in free play. Not only that, but the correct strategy for free play is not necessarily the correct strategy for real play, since the odds are different, and therefore if you practice with a certain strategy in free play mode and win, and then transfer that to real play, it can be expensive.

How do we know what the underlying programming is? How do we know is doesn't compensate like an AWP?

I understand the "skill" element as described, but I'm not convinced, like in a slot, that "all things are equal" so to speak.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Interesting that the same issue is not found in Tropic Reels.

This is just one reel from a spin in fun mode and the exact equivalent blank (the blank between pineapple and tiger) is present and correct (twice in one reel in fact).

 

[thelawnet]

How do we know what the underlying programming is? How do we know is doesn't compensate like an AWP?

Read the help file.

I understand the "skill" element as described, but I'm not convinced, like in a slot, that "all things are equal" so to speak.

All things are not equal in the sense that you have the same chance of getting a Wild as getting a Cherry, or whatever.

Slots are made in two ways, firstly is a reel with repeated symbols, so that the jackpot symbol might appear once and the cherry ten times, or whatever. The other is that the reel stops are weighted, so the cherry and jackpot appear only once, but the cherry is weighted so it occurs ten times more often.

If there are n stops on a reel, then for a 3 reel slot there would be n^3 combinations, and for a 5 reel slot n^5. Because n^5 is much larger than n^3, 5-reel slots can easily be made without weighting - e.g., with 30 stops you have 2,700 combinations (which is insufficient for all but the most primitive slot) with 3 reels, but 2.43 million combinations with 5.

For this reason 3-reel slots are nearly always weighted, as indeed this one is, so the weight of getting a Wild is much lower than that of a less valuable symbol.

The issue here is not that the stops don't occur with equal frequency, clearly they do not, but rather that a particular losing position occurs in real play but not free play.

 

[maphesto]

Are there any accredited Playtech casinos notified about this thread?

If not, why? Betfred and Bet365...

Absolutely disgraceful.

One of my pet hates is misrepresentation of any kind, and this is top shelf scamming.

Maybe it's time for Playtech casinos to be removed from the accredited list until their other games are investigated.

Agree!

 

[maphesto]

I have notified reps for Betfred and Bet365 about this and Bet365 does not have this available in freeplay.

Betfred does...

 

[thelawnet]

I have notified reps for Betfred and Bet365 about this and Bet365 does not have this available in freeplay.

Betfred does...

to be clear, I tested this in free play at Betfred and in real play at Bet365, since I have a balance at Bet365 but not at Betfred

 

[243 lines=daft]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

 

[Richas]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

You would hope that they would sort it quickly but having one game that meets the rules on play games being the same as real money games is hardly a triumph. That is the minimum standard for all the play versions.

It cannot be a "glitch" if the game operates in a fundamentally different way. This is not an error in the coding but different game function by design. The software works - it just works with a different set of outcomes which coincidentally falsely represents the real money game by making the play game pay out more often.

The reason play games must operate exactly the same way according to the GRA is that if they don't they are misleading players as to how likely they are to win for real. Just having two different software packages for the same game is wrong by design - I mean how hard id it to just use the same game but not linked to real money? It would be easier to just have one game but they built two...that look nearly the same and there has to be a reason for such additional effort. Why not have one set of game code to test? The only motive for two different games is that they want the play game to be different.....

 

[thelawnet]

Lighting the torches for a Playtech witch hunt over this would probably be a bit pre-emptive.

The fact that the issue is not showing up in the Tropic Reels (as illustrated in my previous post) suggests this is more likely a genuine glitch than a software design.
(Tropic Reels is effectively the sister game to Ocean Princess and has identical gameplay with different graphics)

Surely Playtech will simply sort this asap when it is pointed out to them.

Tropic Reels is not the same game as Ocean Princess as the paytable is different, and therefore so are the reel weights.

The fact that a particular game in free play mode functions differently from the same game in real play in one respect, does not mean that a different game must be rigged in the same way.

All we know is that at least two games are rigged in a particular way, others might be rigged differently, or not at all.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Here is the full collection of Playtech games from the Multi-Spin family that were released amid great fanfare in 2006.

For convenience I have added a little devil avatar under the two games that this thread has pre-emptively condemned as proven rigged.



Ocean Princess and Ugga Bugga play identically

Tropic reels (as pointed out above) has a different paytable but otherwise looks and plays the same

Goblins cave and Triple profits have a different setup (eg 3 rows of reels instead of 5) but otherwise play in a similar way.

If the intention was to rig these slots then why only two of the five?

Stepping back from the technicals and looking at the fundamentals for a second, there is one other thing that doesn't make sense.

These games were designed as skill games, to crossover between the glitz of slots and the more skill based games of video poker.
Therefore directly targetting the exact kind of player who would be analysing strips, paytables etc to assess the perfect strategy to minimise HE!
To deliberately rig games that were targetted at such analytic minds, and to do so in such a way that the problem could be observed casually by the OP would surely be a crazy move..?!



BUT, having said that, if a variation on the real vs fun mismatch can be found in any of the other three games, I'd agree that would effectively prove rigging
so that is perhaps the 'smoking gun' that the lynch mob should be looking for.

 

[thelawnet]

Well given that the games were released in 2006 and it is now 2013, it doesn't seem that easy to uncover!

Anyway:

* we don't know whether the other slots are rigged in some other way, merely that the particular stop does occur in those games
* we don't know why this was done, but we can say that as the game does not play the same in real and free mode, then that's reason enough to be upset. They can come up with whatever justification they like TBH, the only thing we know to be true is that the game is not the same. They are liable for that , whatever the cause - any justification/damage limitation/spin they want to place on it is down to them.

 

[maphesto]

Do we know if these games are "sold" with different RTP options?

Free play mode was checked at one casino, and the real play mode was checked in another.

 

[Tagdog]

Would these be theoretically low house edge slots?
If so I could see a reason why they would be more likely to operate in freeplay and realplay than say a high HA slot

 

[Betfred]

Hi all,

Firstly, thanks to maphesto for the PM about this thread.

We've raised this with Playtech and we're hoping for a response very soon.

Thanks,

Aaron

 

[Richas]

Hi all,

Firstly, thanks to maphesto for the PM about this thread.

We've raised this with Playtech and we're hoping for a response very soon.

Thanks,

Aaron

Thanks for this Aaron.

Have you also asked your in house test team that carries out the mandatory quarterly tests of all your games for their view?

 

[243 lines=daft]

Mmmm... I can't find either
1 - any Playtech help file that states the RTP or
2 - any non-speculative documentation at all from 2006 that lists the RTP on these slots.

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

 

[Richas]

Mmmm... I can't find either
1 - any Playtech help file that states the RTP or
2 - any non-speculative documentation at all from 2006 that lists the RTP on these slots.

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

For clarity is that no RTP help file/information available for the real money version, the play money version or both?

Is this info missing today as well as for 2006 - are these games live but without the appropriate RTP information?

 

[243 lines=daft]

For clarity is that no RTP help file/information available for the real money version, the play money version or both?

Both

Is this info missing today as well as for 2006 - are these games live but without the appropriate RTP information?

Correct

 

[Richas]

Ok I'm puzzled now.

The gibraltar technical standards

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(6) The published game rules and information should be sufficient to explain to
customers all of the applicable rules and how to participate. As applicable, game
information should include the following:
a) the name of the game;
b) the applicable rules, including clear descriptions of what constitutes a winning
outcome;
c) any restrictions on play or betting, such as any play duration limits, maximum win
values, bet limits, etc;
d) the number of decks or frequency of shuffles in a virtual card game;
e) whether there are contributions to jackpots (“progressives”) and the way in which
the jackpot operates, for example, whether the jackpot is won by achieving a
particular outcome;
f) instructions on how to interact with the game; and
g) any rules pertaining to metamorphosis of games, for example, the number and
type of tokens that need to be collected in order to qualify for a feature or bonus
round and the rules and behaviour of the bonus round where they differ from the
main game.
h) Information about the likelihood of winning:
i) a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are
determined and prizes allocated;
ii) For each game, information about the potential prizes and/or payouts
(including the means by which these are calculated) should be easily
available. This should include, where applicable:
(1) Pay tables, or the odds paid for particular outcomes.
(2) For peer-to-peer games where the prize is determined based on the
actions of the participants a description of the way the game works and
the rake or commission charged.
(3) For lotteries and other types of events where the potential amount or prize
paid out may not be known before the customer commits to gamble,
describing the way in which the prize amount is determined will be
sufficient.
(4) Displays of jackpot amounts that change over time (“progressives”)
should be regularly updated and as soon as possible after the jackpot has
been reset following a win.
..........
(11) The general playing rules and the payout percentage for a particular game should be
the same in free play mode as it is in the real money game.

Are you saying that for all these real money and play games the above information is not available?

 

[KasinoKing]

It would also be useful to find mapped reel strips which can be found commonly for MG games etc but seemingly not for Playtech.
For example it would be useful to count the number of red crowns (top symbol) appearing on the reels in Goblins cave in real and fun mode. (Unlike the three games already discussed, Goblin's cave does not have blanks on the reels so it's possibly a harder setup to map out by the end user.)

I'm 99% sure these are "weighted" slots - which means the reel-strips would not tell you anything.
(With weighted slots the reel strips often have only one of each symbol, but they are "weighted" by the software so that low value symbols land on the win-line more frequently than high value ones).

KK

 

[thelawnet]

Ok I'm puzzled now.

The gibraltar technical standards

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Are you saying that for all these real money and play games the above information is not available?

the paytable is published, but the odds of the stops are not.

 

[Richas]

the paytable is published, but the odds of the stops are not.

OK but they need to explain the likelihood of winning and the game operation.

I loved the list of slots with the devil pictures for proven discrepancy between play and real money games. Given the requirement to explain game operation and likelihood of winning a simple check that this data was the same for both play and real might reveal further discrepancies.

The games should operate exactly the same way so the game explanation and the explanation of the likelihood of winning should be identical.

As an aside

h) Information about the likelihood of winning:
i) a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are
determined and prizes allocated;
ii) For each game, information about the potential prizes and/or payouts
(including the means by which these are calculated) should be easily
available. This should include, where applicable:
(1) Pay tables, or the odds paid for particular outcomes.

suggests full disclosure but it would seem that casinos don't need to/have not been explaining the likelihood of winning at all. A pay table tells you nothing about likelihood at all. I wonder if any game without information on the house edge or RTP really meets this requirement. Has anyone asked the GRA about specific games and whether they explain likelihood properly? It seems to me that like with slapping down an ATF certificate and then not testing themselves sites have taken the specified need for a pay table and forgotten the explanation of likelihood that is required along with the explanation of the way the game works. IMHO a pay table alone is just not enough to meet the requirement.

It seems to me that there is a lot of room here for non compliance on the slots listed without the baby devil (yet). Section H) and H) i) go beyond a pay table.

 

[thelawnet]

I don't read that as having to disclose the RTP.

They just say that they have to give a paytable or 'odds paid'.

The 'odds paid' for a blackjack are 3 to 2.

That doesn't tell you what the RTP of the game of blackjack is.

'Odds paid' is not the 'odds of a given event occurring'.

 

[Jufo]

suggests full disclosure but it would seem that casinos don't need to/have not been explaining the likelihood of winning at all. A pay table tells you nothing about likelihood at all. I wonder if any game without information on the house edge or RTP really meets this requirement. Has anyone asked the GRA about specific games and whether they explain likelihood properly? It seems to me that like with slapping down an ATF certificate and then not testing themselves sites have taken the specified need for a pay table and forgotten the explanation of likelihood that is required along with the explanation of the way the game works. IMHO a pay table alone is just not enough to meet the requirement.

It seems to be generally accepted that when you play slots you are playing with unknowns. The only thing you will get is the paytable but you get no information about how likely it is to hit a certain combination or hit a bonus round. It would be a good service to actually list these probabilities and currently I know of only one software provider who has done this, and it's Galewind (see Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ). In fact I believe they did this page based on feedback from people on this very forum. The wording of GRA terms is ambigious but it seems they don't require odds to be expessed to the player in this detail. It would be good for transparency if this was a requirement though.