Slot Statistics - Critiques Requested

binary128

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Vancouver, BC
Hello. For those who don't know me, my name is Chris Colby and I am the President of Galewind Software Corp.

It seems so much longer than 7 months ago (17 September 2011) when I started a thread titled Return to Player - Critiques Requested.

In a nutshell, the reason for my starting that thread was to request feedback (criticism, suggestions, shredding) from Casinomeister members about a new page for our Help system that we had just finished writing. This new Help page was our attempt to create "... a file that will (definitively?) address the subject of Return to Player (RTP) Percentage."

Although the focus of that first post, and of the linked Help file, was RTP data, it took less than one day before spiderlegz posted:

You could list the volatility of the games, especially for Slots.

My response:

spiderlegz - Re: volatility.

We thought about it.

We decided against it because we wanted to try and keep the scope of the page focused on the issue of "Return to Player". Even then, we still found it necessary to wade into House Edge, "statistically perfect" game play, Element of Risk, etc.

I agree that the issue of volatility is important for slot games (versus, say, Video Poker games). If we wanted to discuss how volatility and House Edge combine to create the player experience for slots, I think that would best be done on a separate page.

(The request for Volatility data, or Standard Deviation data, was brought up several more times by other members throughout the thread. My response to each was pretty much the same as what I've quoted above to spiderlegz.)

So, anyway, spiderlegz, finally ... Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) . (Or perhaps only a part, albeit a significant part, of it.) It took us 7 months to do it - it moved from the freezer to the fridge to a small pot on a back burner. But ultimately, mission (mostly) accomplished.

(BTW - when you open this page in a full browser window, it may look a little funky. That's because it was designed to load into the much smaller Help system popup window. In that small window, it looks just fine.)

The title of this thread is "Critiques Requested". Once again we are looking for input/criticism/suggestions from Casinomeister members. The numbers are what they are - IMO there is nothing there to criticize. (Unless we made a formatting error with one of the numbers, in which case I'd appreciate knowing about it.)

The area that we think, or more accurately that we know, needs help is within the Definition of Terms section. There are only 3 terms included here: Standard Deviation, Variance, and Line Pay Hit Frequency.

We think that we have some pretty decent content for both Standard Deviation and Line Pay Hit Frequency. For Variance - we have absolutely nothing. As in squat, zip, nada. Thus my statement that this mission is "mostly accomplished".

So, I ask Casinomeister members - please give us some words. What does Variance mean to you? If there is a range, for example Low, Medium and High, then what are the cutoff numbers? Is 20 Low? Is 50 Low? Or 100?

If anyone is aware of Variance numbers from other software suppliers, then these might be helpful to include in the discussion.


BEWARE - eye-glaze zone ahead.


Here is the equation used to calculate the Variance. It was applied to sample runs of approximately 20 million rounds for each of our slots. The margin of error for our reported Variance values is in the range of +/- 1.5.


(S2/WRB^2/WRC) - (S1/WRB/WRC)^2

WRC = Wagered round count. Example: For a Free Spin win slot, this is the number of non-free spin rounds.

WRB = Wagered round bet amount. For a line bet of $1 on all lines of a 20 line slot, this value would be 20.

S1 = Sum(Paid Amount). Example: A $20 round "Pays" $6. Technically, this is a $14 loss, but for this calculation it is summed as a $6 win.

S2 = Sum(Paid Amount Squared). The $6 amount above would be summed here as 36. This gets tricky with a Free Spins slot. For a series of Free Spins, the paid amounts are first summed, then squared, and this value is what is then added to the S2 total. That is, the Free Spin amounts are not squared separately, and each value added to the S2 total. They are first added together, this sum is then squared, and the result is added to the S2 total.

The Standard Deviation values were then calculated as the square root of the Variance values.


I could look up Variance in Wikipedia, but that doesn't give me what I think Slot Players in a Casino are looking for. Maybe Casinomeister members don't know either. But I think it would be great if we could somehow put some human meaning to these numbers.

Thanks in advance.

Chris
 

TheLastCylon

Banned User - violation of rule 1.19
I don't think that there is any reasonable way to apply human terms to variance. No one is publishing them. As such, making comparisons is difficult. I don't mean that to take away from your publishing of the data, though. Truly, I think it's fantastic. As near as I can tell, you are the only one doing it.

Players could make a comparison between your slots, which is something. Players could see the number, play the slot, and think "Ahhhh, so that's what the number means." Hopefully, other casinos will follow suit and the true value of these numbers will emerge, allowing true comparison shopping.

Moreover, in your defense, other casinos chosen terms to describe variance/volatility are equally useless. They use completely arbitrary terms or pictures like peppers, or fireballs, or something, all of which tell me precisely squat about the game. Your numbers, while still useless on a larger, industry-wide scale, are at least not arbitrary, which is an upgrade.

As to your question, the best that I can conjure is that variance is the expected extremes that a player would encounter during a game session of any length, even a single spin. I think that you could best describe it as a better determinant of what a player expects to encounter compared to the mathematically expected standard deviation which, much like T-RTP, only forms itself into the standard bell curve over a long period of play.

Basically, as you say in your page, standard deviation requires a reasonably large sample size to appear, but variance does not. On any spin, my return should end up in the range of the T-RTP plus/minus Variance.

And while this doesn't apply directly to the thread, and I also understand that you are a developer and not an actual casino, where can I find your Terms & Conditions? Are they centralized, or do you allow your clients to write their own?
 

binary128

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Location
Vancouver, BC
Well, to be accurate, I had expected a more robust response to this thread. It seems to me that variance is probably the term most often used in any discussion about slots. Most of the threads in the forum are about slots, so that amounts to a lot of references to variance.

This thread, dedicated to that very subject, appeared however to die out of the gate. I confess this was a little deflating, because it took us awhile to get all of these numbers together, and I think we did a pretty good job here. I thought that we put a lot of "meat on the table", and I was looking forward to an interesting discussion.

TheLastCylon (not really a fan, but I liked that show too), first of all I want to thank you for taking the time to compile the Theoretical RTP numbers for NetEntertainment. I can only guess at the amount of work that took. I don't play their slots (a "No shit Sherlock" moment), so your first post's long list was, for me, just a long list. However, the summary data in your last post was very interesting.

I also want to thank you for giving a decent go at it with IGT's Theoretical RTPs. I'd have to agree with your own conclusion that your efforts there ultimately failed, but you, and a few others, gave it a pretty decent shot.

However, your IGT thread, ostensibly about Theoretical RTP, is one in which the importance of variance was introduced almost immediately, and persisted pretty much throughout the thread.

bonkerjerks included the following:

However, one thing I'd like to make clear is that RTP never tells you the whole story on a game. In the short term, it is more often the volatility of the slot that you are really experiencing.

(He uses the word volatility, which I'm assuming is the same as variance. I might be wrong there, however. Variance is defined as the square of Standard Deviation. Volatility might be something completely different.)

rainmaker included the following quote from NetEntertainment:

....Pay-out is however just one dimension of pay-table design. Variance, hit frequency and distribution of winnings between base- and bonus game(s) are other factors to take into consideration.

(I would argue that the "distribution of winnings between base- and bonus game(s)" is one of the factors that feeds into variance, so its inclusion as a separate item above is a bit redundant, but hey, who's a nitpick. :D )

Even in my own "Return to Player - Critiques Requested" thread, Jufo Made a Post that provided a link to a thread on the Wizard of Vegas forum, and included the ratio house edge/variance, thus stating that variance is as important as RTP. So, even Mike is on the variance bandwagon.

"Variance, variance everywhere, and not a number to sea." (A little pun there. Very little.)


Now, with all of that back story filled in ...

Your statement:

I don't think that there is any reasonable way to apply human terms to variance.

You may be right. If we stick to just the words that I have seen used most frequently, one person's "Medium Variance" might be another person's "Low Variance". Without any numbers, who's to decide?

Your suggestion:

Players could make a comparison between your slots ...

I've made some posts in the past about modifications that we made to our slot games. (Min coin amount/max line count, Change Set #1 to the line bet system, Change Set #2 to the line bet system.) There was no response at all to any of those posts. I'm left to conclude that Casinomeister members don't think very much of our slots, and would thus be disinclined to perform any experiments there.

BTW, I disagree - I think that the use of some sort of graphic "hot pepper" symbol (or like that) is a good idea. People like pictures. I think the best idea, though, is to use both a graphic AND a number.

I have to agree with you that, right now anyway, our numbers are useless. For all I know, Galewind's highest variance slot might fall into the Medium range for another software supplier. So if we label it "High Variance" and a Player that's used to another software supplier comes in and plays, they might say "High variance? What high variance? This ain't no high variance!"

Your Statements:

... variance is the expected extremes that a player would encounter during a game session of any length, even a single spin.

On any spin, my return should end up in the range of the T-RTP plus/minus Variance.

I don't think are the answer. A single spin might return 0%, or it might return 2,000%. Even 10 spins might do the same. There's a threshold out there somewhere, but where?

TheLastCylon, I've read that you're not a big slot player, but I do appreciate your taking the time to comment here. (Otherwise, it's just crickets chirping.)

I can only hope that others with more knowledge of slots (and I'd guess that is a lot of people at Casinomeister) can jump in here and provide some opinion, some clarification. As I said, Galewind needs words here, something to put into this Help file that will both make sense and provide value to the Players. I'm asking for help.

Your question:

And while this doesn't apply directly to the thread, and I also understand that you are a developer and not an actual casino, where can I find your Terms & Conditions? Are they centralized, or do you allow your clients to write their own?

I agree, it doesn't apply to this thread. I'm on a mission here, and our T&Cs don't fit into the subject at hand. I extend to you the courtesy of acknowledging that you asked it, but then extend to myself the courtesy of not answering it.

I've read your "Meditation ..." thread. I think there is a chunk of good stuff in there. However, I also think that particular kitchen has gotten way too hot for my cold-weather blood.

If you want to start a focused, single-issue-at-a-time type of thread, then I'd have no problems making what contribution I can there.

Chris
 

ChopleyIOM

Bitter remoaner insufferable woketard 3Dice shill
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Hello binary I should have replied to this thread already but I have to be honest and say I've never played at a casino running your software or am aware of any that are - having had a look at the stats page you linked (97%+ RTP on all your slots? That's pretty awesome) I'm interested to find a UK friendly casino running your software but there's nothing on the accredited list here at CM at all? (I've also read up on some history where you paid out as a platform provider when a casino running your software decided they didn't want to pay up, which is very impressive.)

When it comes to RTP and variance I've said more than once that I think every single game should have on its paytable the long term theoretical RTP and also some indication of variance. (Indeed, this lack of transparency is one of the reasons I'm currently on hiatus from playing at MG casinos.)

I accept that variance is subjective between software providers, but if you want an idea of what works for me personally as a player, take a look at 3Dice with their Zeitgeist page, and their casino client where every single slot simply gives you a description and colour code as to their interpretation of its variance. Low is green, medium is orange, high is orangey-red and very high is a vivid red.

You can have it as simple as that 'up front' as it were, and then have more information in the help files as you see fit.

I do like the way you present RTPs on a slot-by-slot basis, that should be an industry standard IMO.

I don't think there can be any such thing as a casino being 'too transparent', anyone with any sense knows that the casino has the edge overall, but that's no reason not to give the player the information to allow him to make informed choices about what kind of risk vs reward he wants to take on, does he want to maximise his play session for low risk, have the chance for big wins at higher risk etc.

Finally, can you recommend a casino running your software that I could give a try as a UK player? If your slots are genuinely running at 97%+ RTP I suspect they are probably the highest paying slots on the net?
 

binary128

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@ChopleyIOM:

Thanks for the suggestions on presentation. I agree - the Zeitgeist page is very attractive and "user friendly". Our Help files, with all of their words and numbers, are nowhere near as attractive, or "user friendly". That's something for me to think about.

I'm pretty sure that Pinnacle Sports is UK friendly. If you're into "free spins" slots, I'd suggest Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal and/or Gems of Isis. (You can check everything out in their "Play for Free" Casino.)

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

Again, thanks for the feedback.


@TheLastCylon - OK, I'll wait for it to appear in the list.
 

TheLastCylon

Banned User - violation of rule 1.19
I know that this would be something of an odd undertaking, but have you considered hiring someone to go and play the slots at your competitors to gather data samples, determining rough variance numbers, and seeing which numbers to which they attach one, two, five, little hot pepper pictures? Again, it would be an unwieldy thing, but it would give the ability to compare and thus come up with human language to describe something that is rather abstract.
 

Jasminebed

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Ontario
It's not something I'm going to weigh in on lightly, but I will try to make some constructive comments.

Somewhere here, 3Dice explained that their determination of variance was based on a $50 deposit at minimum bets with either busted or $500.

Hope that helps.
 

ChopleyIOM

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I'm pretty sure that Pinnacle Sports is UK friendly. If you're into "free spins" slots, I'd suggest Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal and/or Gems of Isis. (You can check everything out in their "Play for Free" Casino.)

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

Colour me intrigued, slots running at between 97% and 97.5% are a very attractive proposition - especially when you are so upfront and transparent about the numbers behind all your games on an individual basis. Plus the fact that you stepped up to the plate when Heroes Casino decided they didn't want to pay a player and you felt morally obligated to pay as the software provider, even though legally speaking you had no duty whatsoever to do so.

I also note than PinnacleSports have no SUB, but instead offer 0.3% cashback on all wagers made - which is a nice arrangement.

I'm going to spend some time reading the various T&Cs at Pinnacle before I deposit and start playing though, I notice for starters that they deal only in USD (I'm a UK GBP player) and that I'm going to have to withdraw using Moneybookers, and there seem to be fees payable beyond the first withdrawal in any one month.

Thanks again for your post binary, I just wish some of the bigger players (platform providers) in the casino industry would conduct their affairs in the same way that you do.
 

binary128

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Location
Vancouver, BC
I know that this would be something of an odd undertaking, but have you considered hiring someone to go and play the slots at your competitors to gather data samples, determining rough variance numbers, and seeing which numbers to which they attach one, two, five, little hot pepper pictures? Again, it would be an unwieldy thing, but it would give the ability to compare and thus come up with human language to describe something that is rather abstract.

Well, it's a suggestion, so thanks for that, but a pretty grim one. And the thing is, Variance is an absolute number. It's not a Low, Medium or High thing. As you've pointed out, those are just words that we apply to the numbers.

But I think that the test method you've suggested above would result in some really rough (as in, basically useless rough) variance numbers.

If there is no general agreement on the numbers, then there is no general agreement on the words. Since, apparently, no one else is publishing their numbers, then nothing means anything. (Gods, I'd like to take that last sentence back, but unfortunately it is true.)

All that I wanted from this thread were some words - what does Variance mean to you?


@Jasminebed - I'm sorry but I have no idea what to make of that 3Dice explanation. Thanks for the input though.
 

binary128

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Vancouver, BC
Colour me intrigued, slots running at between 97% and 97.5% are a very attractive proposition - especially when you are so upfront and transparent about the numbers behind all your games on an individual basis. Plus the fact that you stepped up to the plate when Heroes Casino decided they didn't want to pay a player and you felt morally obligated to pay as the software provider, even though legally speaking you had no duty whatsoever to do so.

I also note than PinnacleSports have no SUB, but instead offer 0.3% cashback on all wagers made - which is a nice arrangement.

I'm going to spend some time reading the various T&Cs at Pinnacle before I deposit and start playing though, I notice for starters that they deal only in USD (I'm a UK GBP player) and that I'm going to have to withdraw using Moneybookers, and there seem to be fees payable beyond the first withdrawal in any one month.

Thanks again for your post binary, I just wish some of the bigger players (platform providers) in the casino industry would conduct their affairs in the same way that you do.

Thanks for the kind words. Because it got me curious, I had the database queries run to get the total Slot RTP for the past 12 months. It came back as 97.56%. That seemed too high, so I had them re-run. It came back as 97.56%.

So, I guess our total slot RTP for the previous 12 months is ... 97.56%. If you throw the rebate in there, you get 97.86%.

I was sorry to hear that Pinnacle is not as "UK friendly" as you'd like. However, the issue of USD-only puzzled me. So I went to have a look at their "Create an Account" page. In the middle is a rectangle labeled Account Settings, with a dropdown list for Currencies. GBP was in there, along with about 20 or so others.

I know only enough about Pinnacle's T&Cs to make sure that they don't conflict with the Casino's T&Cs.

Chris
 

binary128

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Vancouver, BC
@ChopleyIOM,

In another thread (RTP of Accredited Casinos), you mentioned RTP, variance and other data available from Jackpot Party and 3Dice.

And although the 3Dice Zeitgeist page is attractive and user-friendly, there isn't much there in the way of workable data.

Is Jackpot Party any better. Can you provide, or reference, any workable data from what they provide?

Chris
 

P.V.

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Turn around...
I had the database queries run to get the total Slot RTP for the past 12 months. It came back as 97.56%. That seemed too high, so I had them re-run. It came back as 97.56%.

So, I guess our total slot RTP for the previous 12 months is ... 97.56%. If you throw the rebate in there, you get 97.86%.

Don't want to be the Debbie downer here but wouldn't it be better for a respected 3rd. party to be confirming said RTP?

Maybe TST or another company. :what:
 
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binary128

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Vancouver, BC
P.V. (aka D.D.),

In a previous post to ChopleyIOM, I gave the following instructions:

As to the Slot returns:

If you go to pinnaclesports.com/casino, and scroll down towards the bottom of the page, you will see in the middle of the page a chart. This chart displays the RTP numbers from the Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) monthly audit reports.

At the top of this chart is a series of tabs:

All Games | Blackjack | Video Pokers | Slots | Table Games | Other

If you click the Slots tab, the chart will reload, showing the CFG monthly Slots RTP Percent for the previous 12 months.

You can see that there have been 3 months where the RTP has been above 98%, and 1 month where the RTP was below 95%. The remaining 8 months have all been between 96% and 98%.

I could run a database analysis that gives you the exact RTP for the total of the previous 12 months but, well, at the moment I'm a bit wrapped up. I'd say a good "eyeball average" is 97%, and I suspect that if I did run that database analysis it would return a number that is just a little bit to the high side of 97%.

All of the numbers that are contained in all of these various charts were extracted from the monthly Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) reports. Links to launch each of these monthly CFG PDF reports are contained in a table below this run chart. NOTE: you'll need to use the inner scroll bar, not the outer (page) scroll bar to see this.

(To make it easier, you can just Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) .)

As you can see from the text below this link table, we have about 3 years of these monthly CFG audit reports, going back to March 2009.

When you look at the chart you need to do an "eyeball analysis" in order to figure out where to draw the average through all 12 of the chart points. I indicated that I thought a good "eyeball analysis" would be 97%, but speculated that the exact number would be a little higher than 97%. (To be accurate, I was thinking somewhere in the area of 97.2% to 97.3%, because of the first 6 months and the last 2 months.)

A limitation of run charts is that, if the data points represent averages of variable-sized data sets, as our data points do, you can't do an "average of the averages". That is, you can't just sum the 12 chart numbers and divide by 12 to get the actual 12-month sample average. You need to do a 12-month bulk sum to get the 12-month bulk average.

I could have contacted Eliot (CFG) and asked him run the 12-month slot summary from the monthly logs he has on hand. Or, we could have taken the 15 minutes or so it took to just run the database queries ourselves. I was merely curious, so we just ran them ourselves.

If you remain troubled by our using a non-certified value, I'll contact Eliot and have him confirm this 97.56%.

Chris
 

ChopleyIOM

Bitter remoaner insufferable woketard 3Dice shill
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Well I'm convinced enough to give Pinnacle and Gale Wind a try.

Signed up as a new customer at Pinnacle Sports, deposited 200GBP and we'll see how it goes with some slotting tonight :D

A 200GBP deposit has converted over to $323.62 to play with in the casino, (very fair exchange rate and seems bang on the money), which for a low-roller like me (can't see me getting above a dollar a spin) should hopefully give me some decent mileage.

The deposit from my credit card to Pinnacle Sports was accepted no problem but I immediately received a message that I had to supply credit card scans front+back, a scanned photo ID and a credit card authorisation form within 72 hours.

A bit of an inconvenience perhaps but only took about 15 minutes to do and the upload process through the Pinnacle Sports site is painless, I also assume (hope!) that this means that should I get lucky to hit big and get in a position to make a chunky withdrawal, they won't need any extra documentation off me.

It seems that Pinnacle Sports' main business is Sports Betting, indeed, you can only deposit money to and withdraw money from your Sports Betting account, you have to transfer funds from your Sports Betting account to your casino balance when you start playing, (this is handled in the software when you launch the casino), and to make a withdrawal transfer casino balance back to the Sports Betting account and then actually withdraw it from there - but the software seems to handle this all seamlessly (I've just quit the casino back to the sports betting and it gave me my 200GBP back in my Sports Betting balance, albeit minus one penny! I now have 199.99GBP).

Anyway, Mrs Chopley is out with friends tonight and hopefully Chopley Jnr will get down to bed in a timely fashion, at which point I shall crack open a beer and let the slotting commence! Have to say I'm looking forward to playing slots at 97.5% RTP! :D


EDIT - Pinnacle have just emailed me back to say that all my documents have been verified and approved, so that's taken under 60 minutes!
 
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ChopleyIOM

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Is Jackpot Party any better. Can you provide, or reference, any workable data from what they provide?

Chris

All I have from Jackpot Party is what they supply on the paytable of each game, but they're all basically the same.

The base games all pay 92% RTP, give or take 0.3% either way.

The rest of the RTP is made up of 3% of all wagers going over to the progressive jackpot feature which is effectively a forced wager on every slot on the site, at any stake.

From this, Jackpot Party say that their overall RTP is 95%.

It's not a system I have a whole lot of love for because if you don't hit the progressive feature for a long time you're basically stuck playing slots at 92%, which can have some pretty nasty suction, even on low stakes and especially on the higher variance slots.

They don't do anything in the way of variance indicators, you have to work that out for yourself :)
 

ChopleyIOM

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All that I wanted from this thread were some words - what does Variance mean to you?

You could always express it as 'risk' or use plain English to explain that it's the 'ride' that a slot will deliver.

TBH though I'm not entirely sure how many players understand variance or even want to understand variance. I've tried to explain it more than once in Jackpot Party's live chat and whilst some people are receptive some of the time, I have been met on more than one occasion by players eventually saying words to the effect of 'I don't care about any of that I just want to win big.' (These are the same people who are generally depositing relatively small amounts such as 50GBP or 100GBP, playing high variance slots at 1.50GBP per spin and wondering why they're getting destroyed.)

But at the end of the day I don't believe there can possibly be any such thing as 'too much information' or 'too much transparency' when it comes to online casinos, so the more information you put out there the better binary - and if players want to take the time to read it and educate themselves, they will :)
 

binary128

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Location
Vancouver, BC
It seems that Pinnacle Sports' main business is Sports Betting, indeed, you can only deposit money to and withdraw money from your Sports Betting account, you have to transfer funds from your Sports Betting account to your casino balance when you start playing, (this is handled in the software when you launch the casino), and to make a withdrawal transfer casino balance back to the Sports Betting account and then actually withdraw it from there - but the software seems to handle this all seamlessly (I've just quit the casino back to the sports betting and it gave me my 200GBP back in my Sports Betting balance, albeit minus one penny! I now have 199.99GBP).

Well, you are armed with all of the statistical data that one could hope for regarding the details of the specific slots. You've got a decent stake to start with. All you need now is some luck.

You're right - Purchases and Withdrawals are handled through the Sportsbook site. However, the Casino's cashier is pretty functional. You can send money back and forth whenever you want, even in the middle of a game (like to cover the cost of a Split bet in BJ).

PLEASE use the "Exit Casino" button to exit the Casino (rather than your browser window's kill button).

As I mentioned earlier, if you are into "Free Spins" slots, then I recommend Lucky Lanterns, Golden Goal or Gems of Isis. All of those at a nickel a line for 20 lines give you a buck a spin.

Regarding the "minus 1 penny" - it looks like you got caught in the "rounding down" snag. Example: you transfer some money from the Casino (in USD) to the Sportsbook. When it is converted to GBP, this conversion will always "round down", as follows:

Conversion results in 34.563. This will "round down" to 34.56.

Conversion results in 34.567. This will also "round down" to 34.56.

We had people who discovered that they could make one half a penny per transaction if the conversion rate coupled with the transfer amount rounded up. So, they started executing thousands (and thousands, and thousands) of transfers per day. This was silly, so we implemented this "rounding down" system.

It should work as I've specified above - that is, half the time there is no problem and half the time you lose a penny.

A better solution to this problem would have been to increase the decimal precision of your Sportsbook account balance from 2 decimal places to 3 or 4 decimal places, but it was discovered that this change would have a ripple affect on other aspects of the financial reporting system.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck. I hope that all aspects of your playing experience are flawless.

Now that you have Variance numbers for all of the slots, I'd be interested in any impressions or feedback you can give me on what you experience relative to the newly published numbers. Also of interest is the Line Hit Frequency values, again for which you've got plenty of data.

That is, you now have the Variance number XX for pick-a-slot. I'd be interested in your impressions regarding "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Oh, and when in doubt (no one ever does, but I'll mention it anyway), the Help files can actually be quite ... helpful.

Chris
 

ChopleyIOM

Bitter remoaner insufferable woketard 3Dice shill
webby
Joined
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Location
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LOL :)

Literally been playing for about 15 minutes and hit this in the free spins round, was wishing for the last one to drop in!

Few early comments:

1) The auto play doesn't seem to remember my settings. (I like to set a stop trigger at 100x spins or a 10x wager spin, I have to set that every time I start autoplay.)

2) It'd be nice to have a smaller lowest coin size, $1 a spin is pretty much my highest 'starting point' so just inside my comfort zone.

3) The free plays round on Hot Peppers doesn't appear to display a running total (only slot I've played up to now so can't comment on the others), so unless I take note of my bank before I start, I don't know how much the bonus round has actually paid. (I realise I can look at the game log but a basic 'BONUS ROUND HAS PAID XXXXX' would be nice and is generally standard practice.)

Other than that though, no standout problems at the moment :)

Old Attachment (Invalid)
 

binary128

Dormant account
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Vancouver, BC
@P.V.

So are you cool with my slots "curiosity factor" RTP reference to 97.56%, or would you still like me to contact CFG for an official confirmation? (I know that Eliot is attending/speaking at the International Assoc. of Casino Security AGM conference in Cambodia, so getting an answer from him might take awhile, probably longer than the functional life of this thread.)


@ChopleyIOM

I'm beginning to conclude that I'll need to extract what words I deem applicable to the definition of slots Variance from Wiki.

I don't know what slots you ultimately wound up playing, how many rounds, and like that. However, I'm really curious - armed with all of the stat data which we have provided, did you find any moment during your game play where you could address the issue - "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Comment #1 - Auto Play settings. That one goes onto our To Do List.

Comment #2 - Lower coin amount option. There is a LONG story there, but the short end of it is - We've got what we've got.

Comment #3 - "End-of-Bonus Summary display". Let me think about that one a bit before I decide whether or not it goes onto our To Do List.

I'm glad to hear that you've encountered "no standout problems". We say it on our web site, and it really isn't bullshit - our benchmark is perfection. We may not do, or provide, everything that all of our customers want, but what we do provide must run flawlessly.

Chris
 

ChopleyIOM

Bitter remoaner insufferable woketard 3Dice shill
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
@ChopleyIOM

I'm beginning to conclude that I'll need to extract what words I deem applicable to the definition of slots Variance from Wiki.

I don't know what slots you ultimately wound up playing, how many rounds, and like that. However, I'm really curious - armed with all of the stat data which we have provided, did you find any moment during your game play where you could address the issue - "Oh, so that's what a slot Variance of XX performs like."

Comment #1 - Auto Play settings. That one goes onto our To Do List.

Comment #2 - Lower coin amount option. There is a LONG story there, but the short end of it is - We've got what we've got.

Comment #3 - "End-of-Bonus Summary display". Let me think about that one a bit before I decide whether or not it goes onto our To Do List.

I'm glad to hear that you've encountered "no standout problems". We say it on our web site, and it really isn't bullshit - our benchmark is perfection. We may not do, or provide, everything that all of our customers want, but what we do provide must run flawlessly.

Chris

Thanks for the reply Chris.

Excellent news on #1.

I have read around a bit on CM since yesterday and see that there is some history to #2, fair enough if those are the only coin sizes but I think that playing all lines on a slot like Take It Or Leave It costing a minimum of $1.35 per spin is more than some low-rollers will want to play.

As for #3, why would you not have this? It's incredibly satisfying as a player to see a really good total at the end of a bonus round onscreen. I had a bonus round on Lucky Lanterns last night that paid around $500 (a single free spin on that round was over $400), and whilst I was very pleased with the win I was a bit deflated that I didn't get to a see an end of bonus total and perhaps get a bit of a sound and light show too :D

(Again, I've read around a bit on CM and see from previous posts you've made that you're not fond of overly 'showy' games so I think we might have a fundamental difference of opinion on that one!)

With regards to variance, I'm finding the numbers on your stats page useful and informative, but I'm still leaning towards giving those numbers some sort of relatively simple visual indicator. I can see that Gems Of Isis has far higher variance than Hot Peppers from your stats page, but it's only after playing a couple of thousand of spins through each that it becomes clear just what that number actually translates to in the 'feel' of the slot.

As a final comment, I have found your software/interface/design overall to be absolutely superb, I was playing for a good few hours last night - (somewhat later than I should have been truth be told :lolup: but what is the weekend for if not to unwind after a busy week at work?) - and there really wasn't a single thing about your entire product that I found unfriendly or objectionable.
 

zap987

Meister Member
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Jul 22, 2004
Location
Sweden
A question regarding Gems of Isis, is it possible to get a wild on reel 1 during free spins? Been running it in fun play for a while, somewhere between 100 and 200 freespins I'd guess and not seen it on reel 1 even once but plenty of times on all the other reels. If it is supposed to show up at about the same frequency as the other reels and I just had bad luck then I'd call it high variance while if the wild can't land on reel one it's low variance. I do suspect it can't appear on reel 1, or if it can the frequency is a lot lower than the later reels, but it certainly shows on the animations when the reels are spinning.

Overall all your slots feel like very low to low variance compared to other casinos.

It's of course hard to compare since noone else provides the numbers but what would I look for is what % of the total RTP is in the bigger wins, hard to set a specific number what is a big win, but at least 50x bet and probably even more but it depends on how often they come.
 

binary128

Dormant account
Joined
May 18, 2009
Location
Vancouver, BC
Re: "A question regarding Gems of Isis, is it possible to get a wild on reel 1 during free spins?"

I just checked the source code for the game. You're right. There are NO wild stops in the first reel of a Free Spin game.

There are wild stops in reels 2 through 5 in a Free Spin game, and there are wild stops in Reels 1 through 5 in a non-Free Spin game.

The significant bits in all of this - this issue is not identified in either the Pay Table popup or in the game's Help file. In addition, you indicate that the wild stop appears in Reel 1 during the spin animation.

We will deal with these issues immediately.

Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention. An excellent catch, a really excellent catch.

Chris
 

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