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Pending periods/Reverse withdrawals should be abolished.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Valhalla, Apr 16, 2017.

    Apr 16, 2017
  1. Valhalla

    Valhalla The Professional MM

    Occupation:
    Poker Player
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    I was going to prefix this thread "rep friendly" but I fear the only reps who would comment are those who represent casinos which process withdrawals quickly/instantly and/or manual flush (which is just as good).

    I just don't get why this practice is still allowed. We all know why casinos have pending periods; in the hope players will reverse, carry on playing, and ultimately lose. I would truly love to hear a legitimate and realistic reason other than that, aside from a first withdrawal while KYC documentation is being processed - which is totally understandable. After that, and once a player is fully verified, withdrawals should be instant.

    You could argue that some casinos don't have staff manning the payments department 24/7/365 and so this is sometimes the reason. But I would counter by arguing that they still take deposits 24/7/365 (and deposits are always instant), so why not pay out just as quickly and easily? And if it really isn't feasible to have staff on at all times, that shouldn't prevent withdrawals from at least "disappearing" from our casino balance until such time as they are actually processed and sent to whichever account we choose. And whilst it is on my mind, (regarding credit and debit cards) why can't casinos use the same system to send us withdrawals as we use to send them deposits? Why are our deposits instant, yet the casinos' withdrawals can take days?

    The top rated casinos here at CM all share one thing in common - fast withdrawals. There is only a single casino in the top 20 that enforces a mandatory pending period (24hrs); BetSafe. Ranked 20th (at the minute). The rest have either instant withdrawals, manual flushing, or near instant (0-5 hours). 32Red used to be the standard bearer, the flag carrier, but when did their crown slip? When they started added pending periods, removed manual flushing and weekend payouts. Now they are ranked 23rd, which is the equivalent of Manchester United being relegated. It's quite a drop. The further down the list you go, the longer the pending period gets.

    The UKGC started enforcing daft rules to "protect players", really important player protection rules like limiting the number of autospins and having to add a stop when balance decreases by rule. If they really wanted to protect players they would remove the ability to reverse withdrawals, enforce rules upon casinos to payout withdrawals instantly. That would be the protection players need from casinos that prey on a gambler's weakness. Removing autospin simply means we double-click more often, and probably lose quicker.

    I've said before and I'll say again - Bryan (Casinomeister) should use his influence to put pressure on casinos to end this nonsense altogether. I personally feel that fast payments should be mandatory for accreditation, but failing that, the program used to calculate a casino's score here should be revised; having pending periods/no flushing should not simply be a 0.0 score (or however it works), but rather it should subtract a chunk out of the final score to reflect what is honestly a very shady tactic employed by so many casinos these days. IF it already does subtract a chunk, it ain't a big enough chunk.

    Imagine visiting a B&M casino some Thursday evening, winning £1000 and being told by the manager:

    Why is it OK for online casinos to do this? It's an affront to the industry and it needs ending.
     
  2. Apr 16, 2017
  3. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    Great post! I agree 100%"with every word u said! Can't reply longer yet as I'm in the pub getting wankered... But will add my 10 cents later. There is ZERO Excuse for any reverse time!
     
  4. Apr 16, 2017
  5. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    The simple reason is because the casinos have more clout with the licensing authorities than players do. The ONLY reason these pending periods exist is because (depending on whose figures you hear) when 24-48 hours reverse is applied 20-35% of withdrawals are spent back. Now as we know, decent casinos whom have got rid of reverse period will get the players' deposits next time but some don't see it that way. They are afraid the player will be paid and play it somewhere else.

    I once read the forum on Gamcare and you'd be amazed at how many problem players cited an instance of getting out of debt, winning big so at that point would have had fewer or no financial issues had they been paid. Naturally they reversed and went on tilt chasing the reversal back only to end up even worse off than before they initially won big. So it's not simply the casino getting the reverse w/d back, but the fact that when the player loses that they are likely to deposit and lose even more. A double whammy.

    I cannot understand how this basic tenet of responsible gaming, paying payers their dues without inciting more gambling, is not compulsory. Reversals tend to affect the weaker-willed or bored gambler, the one that needs most protection. I concur; abolishment is the way forward.

    Now this doesn't mean less well established casinos need to employ 24/7 KYC and instant processing, just simply operate to a minimum standard which I think should be 48 working hours, counted Mon-Fri with weekends and Bank Hols excepted. If a casino pays in minutes 24/7 already then fine. If not the w/d MUST be paid by close of business on the second working day after it was initiated, say this was a Thursday then must be processed by close of business Monday, Friday then Tuesday or Wednesday then Friday. Whichever schedule or timescale the casino operates, whether the few minutes or full 48 hours it must NOT be available to reverse once the player has initiated it, whether part or all of it.

    They must NOT incentivize reversals by banning deposits while it's pending or banning deposit bonuses while pending. Actually that's moot as you wouldn't be allowed to reverse anyway :oops: but these are practices which do occur at present so we would see the end of that. Lastly, if a player has initiated a w/d and KYC is required they casino should NOT be allowed to auto-reverse the funds into the player account while carrying out verification - this situation must be treated the same, no reversal.

    You effectively get all the above positives from good casinos anyway; they should now be applied to all licensees. The industry has been around long enough now to adopt and live with no reversals.

    P.S. Should the casino whinge the 'payment fees' excuse about fresh deposits after a w/d has been initiated, then they can charge 1.5% or whatever - many do anyway so that excuse is moot. I'm sure a player with a 1k w/d initiated who has 50 quid left in the bank would rather get a fee on the 50 quid when depositing then lose it all, than reverse the 1k and spunk it.

    Virtually 90% of my budget is spent at casinos with no reverse facility. The rest is at test sites where I cannot reverse w/d's anyway as I need the real timescales/data when I add their accounts to my pages.

    As said above by someone else, imagine going into Ladbrokes last Saturday on Grand National day and winning £1k. Then going back to them an hour later to be told "Sorry mate, come back next Tuesday and we'll pay you then, but don't worry in the meantime you can use that £1k to spend on more betting over Sunday and Monday.."

    "Er... no you owe me £1k cash not betting vouchers."

    "Oh, fuck-off you piece of crap, that's how we operate and if you don't like it bet somewhere else!"

    "Yep. Will do in future, I promise you that."
     
  6. Apr 16, 2017
  7. tommy2guns

    tommy2guns Newbie member

    Occupation:
    clerical officer
    Location:
    lanarkshire
    Your withdrawal request has been received and you can see the withdrawal pending in your View Balances and Deposit page. The withdrawal will stay pending for approximately 2 working days during which time you have the option to reverse your withdrawal; upon reversal, funds will be returned to your playing account immediately.

    Once your withdrawal has been approved by the accounts department and moved from pending to accepted, please allow approximately 2 (two) to 5 (five) working days from the acceptance date for the money to reach your account.

    this is at new casino casilando fk knows when ill see this money £30 deposit for 1k withdrawal no way il be reversing
     
  8. Apr 16, 2017
  9. brianmon

    brianmon Meister Member webby mm4

    Location:
    uk
    The problem is that the UKGC are unlikely to implement any rules which might decrease casino's profits, since that would also decrease the amount of tax they'd receive.

    However many 'token gestures' the UKGC might make in the name of protecting players. They're more interested in the tax income, than anything else
     
  10. Apr 16, 2017
  11. Naok777

    Naok777 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    UK
    Why shouldn't they?
    I remember when I made my first withdrawal at Betat.
    Despite it having been at stupid'o'clock they approved docs and withdrawal within an hour.

    And yes, Betat has seen plenty of deposits from me since then, because doing the right thing when it comes to withdrawals contributes to customers trusting a Casino with their money.

    Frankly if a Casino doesn't have the resources to do the right thing they should take a very long and hard at look at themselves and think about if they are in the right line of business.
     
  12. Apr 16, 2017
  13. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Because a new casino probably wouldn't have the resources to cover the cost initially. If we create a closed shop of casinos and make it hard for new start-ups there'll be less competition and bonuses. They already have bonus, affiliate, start-up and licensing costs. Any such measure would only be appropriate once a casino had reached a certain level of turnover and/or profitability as recorded via tax payments.
     
  14. Apr 16, 2017
  15. Valhalla

    Valhalla The Professional MM

    Occupation:
    Poker Player
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    I actually wouldn't necessarily mind a pending period, even a few days, provided the withdrawal is locked and the player is unable to reverse (I think VideoSlots have this function already even though they barely need it?). Likewise BetAT and Slotty Vegas have the ability to freeze your account until the withdrawal is processed, but again it's entirely unnecessary given they process before the words "I might just reverse..." cross your mind.

    Actually it's bloody ironic that the casinos who give you all the functions imaginable to prevent you from reversing are the ones who process so fast in the first place that they render their own protection functions obsolete anyway :confused:

    There is a huge gulf in class between the fast payers and the rest.
     
  16. Apr 16, 2017
  17. colinsunderland

    colinsunderland Experienced Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    affiliate
    Location:
    uk
    What costs though. Most withdrawals should be processed automatically, yes I understand 'some' might need to be manually approved, any awaiting KYC, possibly some if a bonus was involved, some if they are over £xxxx, but the majority should need no manual intervention surely?
     
  18. Apr 16, 2017
  19. Matti

    Matti Senior Member MM

    Occupation:
    Business Development Tech
    Location:
    Sweden
    Don't get me wrong now. I'm all for fast payouts and no pending periods. This is however a more complex issue than first comes to mind. There are more stake holders in this that just the casino and the player.

    1. Affiliates: They might/and do complain that casino fees are to high since fast payout creates less profit(higher bank-fees) and more cost(staff) for the casino thus lowering the revenue share between casino and affiliates. This might lead to that affiliates send new players to other casinos that don't pay out so fast=more income for affiliates. This fact also goes for money given back to players through different loyalty scheemes. The more you give to the player, some affiliates will start to object that the revshare is getting lower, and that the fees are to high. This balance is important for the casino to try to keep so affiliates keep sending players.

    2. Payment solution providers/Cash-flow: One might think that when you deposit, and the money is available at your account, that the casino has got the money in their account. The fact is that they have to wait up to 55 days to receive the money from the payment providers. My most humble guesss is that the average is 10 days. Since approx 75% of all deposits are withdrawn within 24 hours, the casino has to finance 75% of all deposits made during 10 days. This is A LOT OF MONEY tied up.
     
  20. Apr 16, 2017
  21. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    I think the cost involves setting up automated payments, and if most withdrawals used some kind of bonus as you say it would cause issues. Think health and safety - if a casino had people overseeing the withdrawals they would need at least 2 in situ covering 7 days a week which would require a 4 shift system which would cost about 200k a year. Plus some methods may not be suitable for automated payments - take Paypal for example, the casino's account would need to be permanently logged-in and I wonder if that is possible?

    I am surmising here, but it seems no coincidence that the fastest-paying casinos that seem to use automated tend to be the biggest ones like the Bookies.

    I don't think the OP started this thread by proposing instant automated payments, but just advocated the removal of pending periods. That, ANY casino can do.
     
  22. Apr 16, 2017
  23. Valhalla

    Valhalla The Professional MM

    Occupation:
    Poker Player
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    1. Plenty of casinos manage rapid withdrawals, and these are usually the best casinos around. I don't think they have any problems with getting customers either. I just can't imagine many players would genuinely kick up a stink if small fees were applied to withdrawals in order to ensure they were processed quickly (plenty of casinos do this, even the best ones).

    2. I don't buy it. This might apply to the first couple of months of a casino's existence, but after that first 55 day period has passed, provided the casinos have a steady stream of players and deposits, there will be a steady stream of cash in and out to deal with. A bit like mortgage lending I guess.

    Indeed. The instant automated payments were really just a side-comment, my main beef is with casinos leaving withdrawals sitting there for days, tempting us into reversing, hoping we do before the mandatory time has elapsed. There's really no need for it, and as I said in point 2 of my reply to Matti there, there's always going to be a steady stream of cash in and out, so why make players wait? Fast withdrawals mean happy RETURNING players. Isn't that the most important thing? Casinos that pay out quickly make far more money from me than a casino that enforces pending periods (they usually get nothing).
     
  24. Apr 16, 2017
  25. siomac76

    siomac76 Newbie member

    Occupation:
    Accounts
    Location:
    Glasgow
    I remember asking a casino why they had a pending period and they said 'it's what players want'. Lord knows who were their pollsters.

    Wait until the new Money Laundering directive comes in - pretty sure some casinos will use this for even more unfair practices.

    PS. Betsafe process my Skrill withdrawals pretty much instantly
     
  26. Apr 16, 2017
  27. BrianGhattas

    BrianGhattas Where's My Handpay?!?

    Occupation:
    Freelancer
    Location:
    Ottawa, Ontario
    I easily can avoid reversing a pending payment, I have the willpower to do so. I do wish they would not allow you to reverse a withdrawal, though. PlayOLG.ca here in Ontario immediately removes the money from your balance when you withdraw and it cannot be reversed. One of the few things this poor excuse of a casino does right.
     
  28. Apr 16, 2017
  29. interlog

    interlog Senior Member MM webmeister

    Occupation:
    Manager
    Location:
    London
    Every casino should do what Rizk implemented, that is having a lock withdrawal function available to the player. It immediately stops the temptation to reverse the withdrawal by the players choice.

    Any casino not willing to do this (because we know that it can be done), is just making excuses.
     
  30. Apr 16, 2017
  31. citizenx

    citizenx Non-Gambler MM

    Occupation:
    Stuff
    Location:
    UK
    UKGC are like any other regulator in the UK - a bunch of pricks with an agenda. That agenda rarely meets the needs of those they're tasked with 'protecting'.

    I'd abolish every regulator and let the markets look after themselves.

    Detest the nanny state in every form it exists.
     
  32. Apr 16, 2017
  33. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    All of the points raised in some places on this thread can be invalidated by one simple change. Regardless of staffing levels , public holidays , in that if they "the casinos" are serious about player protection and not utilizing reverse periods as a way of increasing revenues ... which we know they will never admit to but still do such as 32red with there now ridiculous pending period period times. All of the above could be totally mute if the casinos simply mark each withdraw as being "processed" without any ability to reverse.

    I challenge ANY and ALL casinos who have any kind of pending period to respond to this thread with any valid argument as to why a withdraw should be pending at all ? I know they wont reply nor respond, Because they want a player to reverse such as 32Red who does not care less these days about the customer or player responsibility.

    Holidays are no excuse if every withdraw is never available for reverse in the first place!! And any online business should cater for a 24/7 - 365 day market without excuse. 48 hours is not acceptable in my book these days.

    Examples Video slots - payments within minutes no matter if Monday or Xmass day. Sky vegas zero ability to reverse .... Rizk in built option to lock a withdraw. So I dont understand why anyone would play at any casino with either a pending period or withdraws that take more than a few hours.

    The whole reverse pending period is total bullshit and nothing will convince me other wise. Very simply lock all withdraws as soon as they are requested and the problem is solved.

    Extraspil owe me over £200 from last Tuesday I just went onto live support again who "promised me" again its on its way right now. LOL... i think the CS works from a script! Lol. Bad service and you can be sure ExtraSpil wont see another penny from me. Such bollocks they speak. I actually dont care about the money but want people to know BS operations like this have to be outed. Reverse periods are rouge behavior in my view and should be seen as such from here and elsewhere. Zero excuse!
     
  34. Apr 16, 2017
  35. Deeplay

    Deeplay New World Order CAG mm1 webmeister

    Occupation:
    Works For Self
    Location:
    The biG Eu
    Yup agree or even a more simple solution. Soon as a player request a withdraw it goes for processing without ability to reverse. Dont matter then if processing takes an hour or 48 hours.

    Will the casinos who are more desperate do this ? Not a chance! And desperate they must be to sit waiting hoping a player reverses. I remember the old days with 32Red , payments 2 times daily.
    Alas since they change to the ridiculous pending times they now have, my deposits fell by at least 90% but at least they manage to sucker in a good % of players who do reverse.

    A foul practice all round which i really would wish was seen as rouge behavior here.
     
  36. Apr 16, 2017
  37. Naok777

    Naok777 Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Customer Service
    Location:
    UK
    That wouldn't work either.
    Just look at how the unregulated casinos operate.

    Sure we may complain if regulated ones like 32red annoy us with reversal periods, but that is still leagues better than what we see in the regulation free abyss of Pamper Casino, Rushmore Group and so on.
     
  38. Apr 16, 2017
  39. citizenx

    citizenx Non-Gambler MM

    Occupation:
    Stuff
    Location:
    UK
    Wise people will see the complaints of others and avoid. I'd rather lose twenty quid than have some faceless git with their own agenda dictating how i live my life!
     

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