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MG are you taking the ****?

Rusty

Banned User - repetitive flaming
Joined
Jul 23, 2006
Location
Manchester UK
Mg gets worse and worse, maybe it is a joke?
It has taken me nearly 1000 spins in 3 different casinos to hit the free spins in the Osbornes and guess what?
2 Dogs in the whole 10 spins. 10Xbet.
My last 5 deposits at MG have all yielded below 70% payback.

Nothing has changed at MG?
That depends if you always thought they screwed their players doesn't it?

RTG and Cherry Red you are next, looking forward to listing my playstats with you over the last month or so. ;)

As a matter of interest how as Osbornes played for others because I went nearly 300 spins without hitting the grab a prize bonus also :eek:

My New Years resolution is pretty obvious this Year but will I stick to it or continue to line the pockets of thieves?
Maybe I will surprise myself :what:
 
Hi Rusty, you are right. But do you think complain is useful?
Just quit playing MG. and play sth else.

Before I quit playing MG, JUL, SEP and OCT. 3 Months, I lost 20K on Thunderstuck.

I did hundreds K of spins @ 1.35 - 2.25 and even did not get 5 rams 1 time.

I played 200K hands VP and got 1 RF.

In 3 months, I waged half million and never get my bank roll above 2K.

So the only defense of me is to quit playing MG.

Now I am a happy player in iNet.and X'mas, I will only play RTG.:thumbsup:
 
:thumbsup: Good luck with RTG
I need to stop playing slots though with the returns I am getting, maybe I will go back to playing VP a much more sensible waste of time and money :D
 
:thumbsup: Good luck with RTG
I need to stop playing slots though with the returns I am getting, maybe I will go back to playing VP a much more sensible waste of time and money :D

MG Video Poker gives also bad returns since a couple of months.
I play it almost daily and I think I am going to take a break until MG gets back to normal:mad:
 
cant resist..i have to reply to this thread...

I cannot believe that I am reading this. I just had this same conversation with some friends of mine that play at MG casinos and we are all in agreement. There has been some changes for sure..I know that you can play forever and never get into a bonus round or the free spins..I have also noticed in video poker you never hit a hand that is up in the top end of the payouts...best i can get is a four of a kind and those seem to come less also..
I was playing almost daily and i was wondering if it was my imagination and just trying to "blame" someone or something for my lousy luck..but I am now certain that things have tightened up substantially..I was thinking that because they are loosing players with all the "stuff" going on and that would make their player base less..less people playing would mean less revenue coming in and of course, less money being payed out..I have actually thought since the ruling past in congress a year or so ago I have seen the games pay much much less..could be my imagination..but I doubt it..

anyway..i just had to jump in here and voice my opinion..
take care all
Kellye
 
I played a bit of Blackjack, and the dealer just kept on getting 21 on many "bad" up cards. At the same time, I REPEATEDLY kept busting on 22 - odd really. I would hit a load of low cards to about 14 or so, then hit a bust card that took me to 22.

I don't think I should hit 22 that often, why not 24 or 25 - should be equally likely. Why 21 for the dealer, and not 19, 22, or 23.

Also, a very large proportion of PUSH results on my stands on 19 and 20.

I made a brief note from the session.

21 (Dealer - 7.15%) (Me 4.55%)
20 (Dealer - 17.5%) (Me 16.25%)
BUST (Dealer - 21.7%) - now this IS odd, since the dealer MUST HIT hands such as hard 16 or less, whereas I can stand and hope for the dealer to bust).

This looks like one of those long "streak" events, with a long series of hands all following this pattern.

3 Card Poker was just as bad, I was rarely getting so much as Q,6,4 - or more than low pairs - the dealer was constantly getting K and A high, pairs, flushes and straights. The dealer also seems to get more of the 3OK and straight flush hands than the player - but surely these should be equally distributed. Again - streak behaviour, not "flat" random outcomes.

The RTP of the SLOTS far exceeded the RTP of the above games, which supposedly have a much lower house edge.

In VP - many of my "wins" turn out to be a "push", with 2 pair seeming NEVER to produce a full house. This is very unlike how it used to be, with plenty of 4OK turning up, even though higher hands were equally rare then as now. Again, this seems to show games sitting in a rut, good or bad, rather than producing an even distribution of random results.
Hit a game that is "on streak", and the wins fly in, and seems equally unreal, but in a nice way. With SO MANY new games having been released though, it is much harder now to find the few that are paying well.

The overwhelming number of players reporting that things have changed for the worse seems to make it more likely that indeed something HAS been changed, rather than that 1000 players have suddenly fallen victim to an affliction of the mind.
 
thanks

Mg gets worse and worse, maybe it is a joke?
It has taken me nearly 1000 spins in 3 different casinos to hit the free spins in the Osbornes and guess what?
2 Dogs in the whole 10 spins. 10Xbet.
My last 5 deposits at MG have all yielded below 70% payback.

Nothing has changed at MG?
That depends if you always thought they screwed their players doesn't it?

RTG and Cherry Red you are next, looking forward to listing my playstats with you over the last month or so. ;)

As a matter of interest how as Osbornes played for others because I went nearly 300 spins without hitting the grab a prize bonus also :eek:

My New Years resolution is pretty obvious this Year but will I stick to it or continue to line the pockets of thieves?
Maybe I will surprise myself :what:

an excellent post rusty and reiterates what i have been saying for weeks..MG is way different..but very soon a few people will come aong and tell you howmuch they were paid out..and you can gurantee that..you will also find no support for this thread from anyone nr the top of CM . but ahh at least us and many others can see whats going on and ive taken my first stance and closed my acct cos like you i know im throwing money away with little chance of a payout..anyhow ill crawl back into my hole and keep an eye on this thread but i expect as i said the MGlvers along telling you how brilliant it is <haha>
 
I have been quietly playing poker at stars and watching since MG kicked Americans out of the progressives and stopped new players from joining.

The fleecing of America, several people besides myself predicted this. You couldn't put a gun to my head and make me deposit right now, lol.
 
LOL it just gets better and better.
Summertime 3 deposits nearly 700 spins ZERO features and about 55%
That is on top of the 900+ spins it took me to hit the Osbornes and win nothing.

But hey...nothings changed ;)
 
Yes, I'm convinced also

Let me just say that when people used to moan and complain about payouts, I thought it was silly, as that is the nature of gambling: especially slots.
Back in Feb, March, and April this year I made around $7,000.00 at two of my favorite Mg casinos. I actually got a little nervous thinking something was wrong!:eek2: Then I went to Atlantic City in May (lost my tushie) and came back looking forward to playing online again. That is when I noticed a change. I literally have not cashed out at a MG casino since April. I haven't made huge deposits, but what is fishy to me is the lack of playback, period. You can't make even $50.00 last twenty min. (and I'm a conservative better: $.50 to $.90 a spin).!
So to all those who are crying fowl about MG right now, I have filled buckets. I know where your'e coming from. I have almost stopped gambling all together since it is not much fun anymore. To be honest I hope the new administration overturns the gambling ban. Then I can play at Playtech casinos again.:D
 
MICROGAMING AND U.S. PLAYERS+CANT PLAY "MY SLOT" and.....

I have basically stopped playing at any Micro casinos after they stopped allowing U.S. players to play the Progressive Slots and now they won't even allow a U.S. player to play their new slot "my slot".

So why play somewhere that restricts the games you can play, stopped giving you VIP perks such as Holiday gifts, Birthday Bonuses and the like?

I basically play at two RTG casinos, thats it.

I plan to play decrease play to once a month!

p.s. payout at mini-vegas group has been the best for me although now nearly as good as it use to be
 
Mg gets worse and worse, maybe it is a joke?
It has taken me nearly 1000 spins in 3 different casinos to hit the free spins in the Osbornes and guess what?
2 Dogs in the whole 10 spins. 10Xbet.
My last 5 deposits at MG have all yielded below 70% payback.

Nothing has changed at MG?
That depends if you always thought they screwed their players doesn't it?

RTG and Cherry Red you are next, looking forward to listing my playstats with you over the last month or so. ;)

As a matter of interest how as Osbornes played for others because I went nearly 300 spins without hitting the grab a prize bonus also :eek:

My New Years resolution is pretty obvious this Year but will I stick to it or continue to line the pockets of thieves?
Maybe I will surprise myself :what:
Well i said to myself i will never complain of losing,After cuting out my play at casinos to nearly zero in last month,I tryed osbournes,Well i have not checked the stats on this,But i am still yet to hit a free spin feature on it :eek: I am guessing here,Over 2000 spins easily,I now laugh when i get two dogs and the reels spin slowly and make that stupid noise :eek: I get the grab a gift and 3 knockers quite often,But they pay sod all anyway. I am now finished with it all. If everyone who moans about microgamming done the same,Then they might have to take notice ? Rant over and merry xmas to you all.
 
I have basically stopped playing at any Micro casinos after they stopped allowing U.S. players to play the Progressive Slots and now they won't even allow a U.S. player to play their new slot "my slot".
So why play somewhere that restricts the games you can play, stopped giving you VIP perks such as Holiday gifts, Birthday Bonuses and the like?

I basically play at two RTG casinos, thats it.

I plan to play decrease play to once a month!

p.s. payout at mini-vegas group has been the best for me although now nearly as good as it use to be

This is the oddest move of all, WHY:confused::confused:

It's simply "Summertime" - look in the registry and the key itself simply marks "MySlot" as a variant of "Summertime".

All the software for running it came with the Viper upgrade, so MGS have ACTUALLY SPENT MONEY in adding extra code whose ONLY purpose is to disable "My Slot" for US players. Unlike the progressives, there is no case for this other than any "case" for blocking US players from all the "clones", of which My Slot is just the latest.

MGS may, of course, be LYING about how My Slot works, and perhaps OUR PERSONALISATIONS actually get uploaded to MGS, and under that sneaky small print term become "the property of MGS" in the same way as those competitions for holidays operate with the tie breaker. This could get them slot designs by the back door, WE do the work, but THEY get the rights to the symbol sets, and MAY later use them for one of their own slots, or even make them generally available to ALL players through "My Slot".
Here lies the problem, if US players upload designs to MGS, then MGS become DIRECTLY INVOLVED as a company with so called "illegal online gambling", and could become a DIRECT target, as wel as being pursued simply as the software providor for "illegal casinos".

This would lend some logic to the decision.

No Progressives - easy, could prove hard or impossible to pay big win, PR Disaster follows.

No "My Slot" - could make them an accessory to the fact in any legal action against a casino operating "My Slot" where it can be shown to have offered a promotion or payment to a US player whose own My Slot design has been used to market further "illegal" online gambling.


Since MGS are probably going to finally pull the plug soon (1st December must have failed due to "technical difficulties"), WHY bother doing all this extra fiddling around in the mean time. It could very well leave non-US players with a "buggy" lobby next year as all these "temporary fixes" get left behind, and begin to create conflicts with future developments (don't laugh, It has happened before, although I got a nice dinner at a top London eatery from 32Red for "busting" MG as the culprit, rather than the players PCs and ISPs, which was all that could be dragged out of MGS at the time).

Perhaps Christmas and new year are simply too lucrative for a few MG casinos to overlook, so maybe loads of promotions for US players, funded by sweet FA for the rest of us, but it will then be OUR turn NEXT year. They will even save money, as there is no "Thanksgiving" over here, just Christmas (and Guy Fawkes night here in the UK).
 
Umm

The MG casinos (well Ladbrokes and 32 Red) have been fairly good for me - I'm a low roller and I've cashed out (net) 540 from 3 withdrawals just from 32 Red and today made 100 from 10 which I'd left in my account. Some of the slots seem to change in how generous they are, but I never stick to one for long anyway.

Now, if we were talking about wagerworks...
 
I sent an email to Vegas Joker about not seeing a single free spin bonus out of my entire deposit and get this reply...

Please note that nobody else is actually complaining about free spins or
bonuses at our casino.

Then of course the apology for my disappoinment and then -

I would advise you to either change the games you play or simply stop
playing for a little while.

Best Regards,

Luigi

(I changed games about 5 times out of roughly 500 spins because most of my spins where hitting nothing.)
 
The sad thing about this is it led to me revert back to RTG which I stopped playing because...well you guessed it.

I have come to accept that all software plays the same and is weighted but that should not necessarily mean the player gets screwed.

The big problem is that slot returns are altered without the players knowledge and it is not done through reel layout or paytable changes but through weighting.
I am certain there are times when I am playing games with payouts set to as low 35%
If the weighting is altered without the players knowledge then this constitutes a rigged game in my view because the player is deceived into playing a game they believe has 93%+ average return through every single spin and not a manufactured return over the course of a predefined period.

RTG, Playtech, MGS, Rival all use this system to control return and cashflow and if they did not I dare say Casinos would demand it.

The most subtle is MGS but since they have cut the returns of their slots it has become more noticeable.
The most blatant id Rival and how anyone can go near that software I have no idea then again I like RTG slots but they are only a step up from Rival.

Then we have the New kids on the block like wizzard gaming and guess what... yeah the slots are weighted.

I still hope One Day a Casino will be brave enough to develop its own software (3Dice?) and just use natural variance as a means to control returns (It can be done with the right design) but so far there is no incentive for them to do so.
Why would they when they can have a guaranteed income with controlled cash-flow and not have to worry about a Whale getting lucky and wiping out the profit for a Few Months.
Take X in then pay Y out.
If times are hard or slow lower the return to make up for it.

If online slots are your choice of drug then I'm afraid the best you can do is limit your deposits and low roll.
That or don't do drugs :cool:
 
I just had one of the worst slot sessions I have ever experienced.

Villento took my deposit so fast It amazed me. I try to play normal spins. All the lines, minimum bet. In 3 minutes I was down to 7 lines just hoping to hit a feature and get back to normal. The whole deposit went without even a glimmer of hope.

Not entertaining. The software was only letting me see 1 out of every 3 spins because of freezing. ( not my comp, brand new with high speed DSL) and it wasn't downloading the whole list like MG loves to do to you.

I wrote that deposit off, no more MG for this girl.

I moved to Cherry Red. Get some entertainment!

No bonus's listed, only blackjack tourney signup where the bonus's usually are. I deposit without a bonus.

Same thing! In just a few minutes I am almost busted!

I go to achilles and spin 7 lines at minimum, maybe I can get lucky and hit a feature and play normally.

Several hundred spins at that and no feature. Busted out.

I guess no more RTG for this girl either.

Should have watched a movie and saved my 2 deposits.

I usually get a movies worth out of one deposit. 2 gone in the blink of an eye?

Who can afford that type of ( frustrating) enjoyment.

I am scared to deposit at 3 Dice, lost 22 straight deposits and posted it. Enzo gave me a nice comp but it ate that very fast also. I do not take small deposits and bet big, I try to make it last.

It doesn't anymore.
 
I just had one of the worst slot sessions I have ever experienced.

Villento took my deposit so fast It amazed me. I try to play normal spins. All the lines, minimum bet. In 3 minutes I was down to 7 lines just hoping to hit a feature and get back to normal. The whole deposit went without even a glimmer of hope.

Not entertaining. The software was only letting me see 1 out of every 3 spins because of freezing. ( not my comp, brand new with high speed DSL) and it wasn't downloading the whole list like MG loves to do to you.

I wrote that deposit off, no more MG for this girl.

I moved to Cherry Red. Get some entertainment!

No bonus's listed, only blackjack tourney signup where the bonus's usually are. I deposit without a bonus.

Same thing! In just a few minutes I am almost busted!

I go to achilles and spin 7 lines at minimum, maybe I can get lucky and hit a feature and play normally.

Several hundred spins at that and no feature. Busted out.

I guess no more RTG for this girl either.

Should have watched a movie and saved my 2 deposits.

I usually get a movies worth out of one deposit. 2 gone in the blink of an eye?

Who can afford that type of ( frustrating) enjoyment.

I am scared to deposit at 3 Dice, lost 22 straight deposits and posted it. Enzo gave me a nice comp but it ate that very fast also. I do not take small deposits and bet big, I try to make it last.

It doesn't anymore.

That sucks but I think it is what many of us are experiencing currently.
All my recent deposits have vanished without a sign of any play let alone winning.
Everyone loses together it seems and yet we are told the slot returns are not altered.
I will believe in Santa again before I believe that nonsense.:rolleyes:
 
Personally I'm starting to feel a little insulted by this constant statement that it's all just bad luck. It's an insult to my intelligence. I've had this debate more times than I can count. There's no way any casino is going to stricktly rely on player luck or bad luck to make money. Casinos know the odds on any game or they wouldn't host them.

Vegas Joker - As discussed earlier we cannot do anything else but empathize with you and express our regret for this bad luck streak, but at the same breath we assure you that all our games are randomly operated. No attempt
whatsoever is made to alter or manipulate the random nature of the
system. -

First of all I seriously doubt you regret taking my money.

Second of all everyone knows the RNG generates random numbers. I can even email asking not to be told the RNG generates random numbers and the casinos will always email me back and say "The system uses random numbers."

Third, you don't have to manipulate anything if the software is doing it for you.

Random does not mean fair. Randomly losing every single spin is still randomly losing.

Almost 500 spins wagering on every line and not a single bonus from deposit to bankrupt and all the casino does is blow you off with "Sorry 'bout your luck."

At Vegas Joker I guess the joke's on me.
 
The joke is on all of us who deposit.

We do it because someone has to win.

Or do they?

Your bad luck may be my good luck, they all advertise 95% to 98% payouts

I have had luck here and there.

If I claim 65% they say my sample isn't large enough. I say I have gambled online 9 years and I'll not bet my lifes savings to prove it.

It's all up to the gambler. have a bad streak and take a break, win a little and feel good but in the end we are all losers and they have our money to prove it.
 
Well, I hit a jackpot last year and I think I'm still playing with their money.

They just seem to have taken all the entertainment value out of it.

I hardly even play anymore.

What bugs me is this story they keep trying to convince me of that the only reason I've been losing for most of the last year is because I have really bad luck. Luck is entirely dependent on odds.

If the odds are really good you don't need much luck. if the odds are even luck definitely helps. If the odds are terrible... You're probably gambling online.
 
The joke is on all of us who deposit.

We do it because someone has to win.

Or do they?

Your bad luck may be my good luck, they all advertise 95% to 98% payouts

I have had luck here and there.

If I claim 65% they say my sample isn't large enough. I say I have gambled online 9 years and I'll not bet my lifes savings to prove it.

It's all up to the gambler. have a bad streak and take a break, win a little and feel good but in the end we are all losers and they have our money to prove it.

Nothing wrong in what you say but it is about how you win and lose.
Winning and losing streaks are all a natural part of gambling but will occur within expected parameters, that is, within an expected range of variations.

This range would be different for each slot and to be exact we would need to know the probability of outcome of every possible combination of every slot.

Fortunately we do not need to be this exact to know when something is outside of expected variation.

For example;
If you had a losing streak of 12 hands playing Blackjack you would consider that a horrible losing streak but even without the Maths a Blackjack player would instinctively know this is within the expected variation over Thousands of hands.
However they might be suspicious the way the games played out and look into the play history in more detail.
If they found that for example each time they had 20 the dealer drew 21 they might become more suspicious and check other losing streaks.
If they found this theme repeated itself then they would know this was statistically anomalous.
So even though losing and winning are part of gambling to simply accept this fact without question will leave you open to being cheated.

Even if you get overall expected return (which I certainly do not) that does not mean you should assume the game is fair.
What if you were guaranteed an exact 95% return on you deposits through a Year by a Casino?
You would I hope say thanks but no thanks because you know it would have to be rigged.

Remember everyone and anyone who reads this forum including representatives from the Casinos and Software companies I openly question have the right of reply.
If I am mistaken about something or have some stats wrong etc and they can show me how and why I will certainly listen.
I am not here to slag off any particular Casino or brand, they all get the same treatment and analysis, I am here to raise awareness because the more people become aware the more likely things will improve.

I personally believe and have plenty of evidence to support that online slots are weighted and that the return of slots is altered without the players knowledge.
This does not mean you can never win but it does mean you will certainly lose as and when the Casino wishes by lowering the return of their slots by a significant percentage through weighting.
 
Hey Rusty, would you be kind enough to explain "weighting" to me. I am sure it is here somewhere but I know not where to look. :)

Sure Cynth,
Weighting is a term used that describes artificially altering the probability of the outcome of a random event.

Pretty much every 3 reel slot uses weighting.

For example If you play a 3 Reel slot with a bonus symbol on the 3rd reel you will notice that the bonus symbol lands above and below the payline with much more frequency than on the payline, this is a result of weighting.

So there may be 20 symbols on the virtual reel but these do not all have a 1 in 20 chance of hitting.
It may be that the bonus symbol has a 1 in 200 chance and the Jackpot symbol a 1 in 100 chance for example.
The reason for this is to artificially make it more difficult to hit certain higher paying combinations but overall the return should still be around 95% or whatever.
These games though weighted can still be perfectly fair as long as the weighting remains the same and the player knows the probability of each combination. Of course the flip side is there is plenty of scope to make the game unfair without it being obvious by altering the weighting.
For example making the higher paying symbols and bonus symbol less likely to hit by increasing the weighting.

To make this clear I will give you a very simplistic example;
I have a 3 Reel slot with 3 symbols on each reel. (Cherry,Seven,Bar)
My RNG is giving a number from 1 to 3 for each reel stop position, say the 1=cherry,2=Seven,3=Bar.
This means there 27 total combinations of reel stop positions (3x3x3) In reality there are often Millions.
If I award a prize for 3 of a kind then there will be 3 winning combinations (3 symbols the same) and 24 losing.
1,1,1=3 cherries 2,2,2=3 Sevens 3,3,3=3 Bars.
Now lets say we want this slot to be more interesting so we decide to make each of the 3 symbols award a different prize for 3 of a kind.
We make the cherries pay 1/1 (bet back)
The Sevens pay 10/1 (10Xbet)
The Bars as Jackpot pay (100Xbet)

Now we have a serious problem as our Casino is losing a lot of money because people are winning fortunes on our slot.
In 27 spins, a full cycle of combinations, their expected return is
24X0 (losses) 1X1 ( 3 Cherries) 1X10 (3 Sevens) 1X100 (3 Bars)
So they have bet 27 and the slot has returned 1+10+100=111
That is just over 400% return! Oops we need to weight our slot.

To do this we need to artificially alter the probability of each symbol hitting from the natural 1 in 3 (1 stop position, 3 symbols to each reel) so that the higher paying symbols hit less frequently.
We achieve this by artificially increasing the amount of combinations possible while keeping the slot the same by having our RNG return a number from 1 to 100 instead of 1 to 3 as before, even though there are still the same symbols on the reel.
Now we have 100X100X100=1 Million possible outcomes from the RNG.

OK now to balance our slot.
Let us say each time the RNG returns a number from 1 to 10 inclusive the Bar will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Bars is hitting is now
10/100 X 10/100 X 10/100 (10 numbers which=Bar/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 1/10 X 1/10 X 1/10= 1/1000 or a probability of 1 in 1000

We will also say each time the RNG returns a number from 11 to 30 inclusive the Seven will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Sevens hitting is now
20/100 X 20/100 X 20/100 (20 numbers which=Seven/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 1/5 X 1/5 X 1/5= 1/125 or a probability of 1 in 125

Finally We will say each time the RNG returns a number from 31 to 100 inclusive the Cherry will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Cherries hitting is now
70/100 X 70/100 X 70/100 (70 numbers which=Cherry/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 7/10 X 7/10 X 7/10= 343/1000 or a probability of 1 in 3 (2.91545...)

So now
In 1 Million spins, a full cycle of RNG, their expected return is
477,000X0 (losses) 343,000X1 ( 3 Cherries) 8000X10 (3 Sevens) 10,000X100 (3 Bars)
So they have bet 1 Million and the slot has returned 343,000+80,000+100,000=523,000

That is just over 52% return! Oops we made our slot a little tight.
Not to worry the punters will never know ;)

And this where the story really starts

OK so now you understand One form of weighting but the same results can be achieved using different methods but they all use the same principle.

You can also see why Three Reel slots might use weighting because the programmers/designers were to lazy to incorporate more reel positions even though they do for 5 reel sots which are obviously more work (That makes no sense does it? Tell it to the shills)

Now the Daddy;
We are told that 5 Reel slots do not use weighting, that the amount of symbols and their order remain the same and the probability of outcome for each and any of the combinations are all exactly equal and remain unaltered.

This is possible by using much longer reel strips and incorporating variance (The frequency and size of wins) into the design.
The return of the slot is only alterable through changes in the paytable (awarding more or less for winning combinations) or by a redesign of the virtual reels.

:lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:
At least that is what I would say if I worked for One of the Software companies.

The big problem for these purveyors of misinformation though is that unlike 3 Reel slots, where we are not privy to how the weighting is applied and so can not calculate how fair the game is, we can find out the Reel layout of 5 Reel slot and because they tout it as unweighted we can check to see if indeed each combination appears to always have an equal probability as every other.
This is where we find many anomalies in the results that show conclusively either the RNG is faulty or the slots use weighting.

Software developers are becoming very aware of this and they are already trying new methods where weighting would be less conspicuous.

Ever wondered why virtual slot reels are getting longer and longer?
The more combinations there are the harder it is to prove the results are anomalous.
New slots can now have Several Hundred Million combinations, try to pick the anomalies out of that.
There is your answer.

Of course it could be argued that although software developers are too lazy to design 3 Reel slots with a relevant virtual reels they just love the extra work of designing 5 Reel slots with Reels that incorporate over 50 symbols.
That would be a very silly argument indeed but then Casinos and software companies have been making them for Years.

Sorry for putting people through such a hideously long post.
 
Everytime I ask a casino if the odds on these slot games vary I get told "We don't manipulate the games in any way."

And then I ask again "I'm not saying that you're doing anything. I'm asking if the odds change on the slot games for any reason at the software level? Does the software alter the odds under different circumstances?"

And then I get told that I have bad luck and the discussion ends.
 
You are very welcome Cynth
Actually I made an error
10477,000X0 (losses) 343,000X1 ( 3 Cherries) 8000X10 (3 Sevens) 10,000X100 (3 Bars)

should read 1000X100
an extra Zero got in there :rolleyes:
 
Hi all,

As a player who has played untold millions of wagering dollars (over the course of 12 years), I can tell you that there is definitely something flaky with MG software since the UIGEA came into force. It's got noticeably worse since MG pulled out of the US market.

As an affiliate I like to see my players win. To me...Happy players who win will always return and deposit. Players who keep losing will go else where.

It's not rocket science :rolleyes:

However, in about the last 6 months I've seen things go from bad to totally pathetic - this is at multiple MG casinos btw.

EG - A whale who used to drop between $50K to $70K a month would have their good months and so so months. In the last 3 months this person was consistently doing their nuts! Well this player (and I don't blame him/her) has stopped playing.

This month another of my long term players dropped $16K and didn't win jack. They totally spat the dummy; I'm told they went totally nuts. Obviously aware that all was not kosher with the MG slots. As a result the Casino locked their account.

As a player I know exactly how they feel.

Reiterating as some posted in this thread...It's not a couple of gamblers having a bitch because it's a bad month. Fact is, the majority of MG players here at CM who are playing MG slots (at varied MG casinos) are all experiencing the same thing & feel they are getting shafted!

Maybe all the new slots are having an impact of the over payout percentages, I don't know.

What I do know... is MG software is tighter that a fishes butt hole & has been getting worse each month. No matter what slot is played the results are generally the same...SH#T :mad:

Previously to MG slot going pear shaped, I could have placed a side bet that if I got the re-triggered spins on Thunderstruck, Spring Break or Ladies Nite I would have collected a decent win. Not any more.

When this scenario plays out time and time again and your lucky to get 20x your original wager, then in my book something is wrong.

Of course CSR's are going to repeat the same canned BS but as a player I know I'm getting consistently shafted.

Before the MG slots went strange, withdrawals of $1 - $4K would generally happen every month or so. Of course I didn't always hit the cash-out button. But I was winning and that's the point here!

To put this into a tangible perspective I just check Neteller and these are the last cash-outs from May 2009 - Jan 2007:

March 2009 (32Red) $800US
January 2009 (32Red) $900US
December 2008 (32Red) $300US
November 2008 (Platinum Play) $1,630US
October 2008 (Casino Share) $3,300US

From November 2007 - June 2008 I have varied small cash outs of between $500US - $1,200US every month. From either Casino Share or 7Sultans.

October 2007 (Casino Share) $3,500US
April 2007 (Casino Share) $4,500US
March 2007 (Casino Share) $4,000US
Feb 2007 (Casino Share) $1,200US
Jan 2007 (Casino Share) $1,000US

---------

Now to put this into a greater perspective 99% of my game play is slots & of this I only play these bonus slots:

Isis
Break da Bank Again
Spring Break
Ladies Nite
Thunderstruck

In so far as Spring Break, Ladies Nite and Thunderstruck I would average the 5 scatters every 3 - 4 months. I've not had one single 5 scatter pay on any of these MG slots since October 2008.

Of that I've has untold re-triggered free spins (up to 7 times in one group). Best win achieved was a pathetic $90 @ $2,25 a spin.

I could write a book on how flaky MG slots are these days. Maybe it's time I also pulled the pin on online gambling.

Frankly I think I'd get just as much enjoyment (if not more entertainment value) from flushing $50 & $100 notes down the S bend of my toilet as opposed to playing MG slots.


Cheers
T
 
m/g and their ways

hi there all
just new to this so no fancy post but i have played online for 5 years and m/g used to be muy fav. with break da bank again the leader, i dont play for big massive cash but i hit 25 free spins with a multiplier of 5 and throughout received an incredible 55 extra spins(wow gr8 eh?) total payout for these 80 spins x 5 ..........0.90 and the answer when i called was it was well within the parameters lol. Also there Jackpot thermometer is as much use as an ashtray on a motorcycle it was at 999.0 for a full 4 weeks and after 15 deposits chasing it i asked for it to be looked at and lo and behold it was won during the investigation after the thermometer dissapearing for 4 hours. Finally while playing i noticed my cash had risen by 50 pounds and i did not see the win, turns out it was not a win but i had won a monthly prize from casinomeister, therefore i deposit with them all month chasing an invisible jackpot but in the end my biggest win came from casinomeister.....THANKS MEISTER
 
Sure Cynth,
Weighting is a term used that describes artificially altering the probability of the outcome of a random event.

Pretty much every 3 reel slot uses weighting.

For example If you play a 3 Reel slot with a bonus symbol on the 3rd reel you will notice that the bonus symbol lands above and below the payline with much more frequency than on the payline, this is a result of weighting.

So there may be 20 symbols on the virtual reel but these do not all have a 1 in 20 chance of hitting.
It may be that the bonus symbol has a 1 in 200 chance and the Jackpot symbol a 1 in 100 chance for example.
The reason for this is to artificially make it more difficult to hit certain higher paying combinations but overall the return should still be around 95% or whatever.
These games though weighted can still be perfectly fair as long as the weighting remains the same and the player knows the probability of each combination. Of course the flip side is there is plenty of scope to make the game unfair without it being obvious by altering the weighting.
For example making the higher paying symbols and bonus symbol less likely to hit by increasing the weighting.

To make this clear I will give you a very simplistic example;
I have a 3 Reel slot with 3 symbols on each reel. (Cherry,Seven,Bar)
My RNG is giving a number from 1 to 3 for each reel stop position, say the 1=cherry,2=Seven,3=Bar.
This means there 27 total combinations of reel stop positions (3x3x3) In reality there are often Millions.
If I award a prize for 3 of a kind then there will be 3 winning combinations (3 symbols the same) and 24 losing.
1,1,1=3 cherries 2,2,2=3 Sevens 3,3,3=3 Bars.
Now lets say we want this slot to be more interesting so we decide to make each of the 3 symbols award a different prize for 3 of a kind.
We make the cherries pay 1/1 (bet back)
The Sevens pay 10/1 (10Xbet)
The Bars as Jackpot pay (100Xbet)

Now we have a serious problem as our Casino is losing a lot of money because people are winning fortunes on our slot.
In 27 spins, a full cycle of combinations, their expected return is
24X0 (losses) 1X1 ( 3 Cherries) 1X10 (3 Sevens) 1X100 (3 Bars)
So they have bet 27 and the slot has returned 1+10+100=111
That is just over 400% return! Oops we need to weight our slot.

To do this we need to artificially alter the probability of each symbol hitting from the natural 1 in 3 (1 stop position, 3 symbols to each reel) so that the higher paying symbols hit less frequently.
We achieve this by artificially increasing the amount of combinations possible while keeping the slot the same by having our RNG return a number from 1 to 100 instead of 1 to 3 as before, even though there are still the same symbols on the reel.
Now we have 100X100X100=1 Million possible outcomes from the RNG.

OK now to balance our slot.
Let us say each time the RNG returns a number from 1 to 10 inclusive the Bar will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Bars is hitting is now
10/100 X 10/100 X 10/100 (10 numbers which=Bar/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 1/10 X 1/10 X 1/10= 1/1000 or a probability of 1 in 1000

We will also say each time the RNG returns a number from 11 to 30 inclusive the Seven will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Sevens hitting is now
20/100 X 20/100 X 20/100 (20 numbers which=Seven/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 1/5 X 1/5 X 1/5= 1/125 or a probability of 1 in 125

Finally We will say each time the RNG returns a number from 31 to 100 inclusive the Cherry will hit.
This means the probability of 3 Cherries hitting is now
70/100 X 70/100 X 70/100 (70 numbers which=Cherry/ 100 possible numbers)
so we can cancel that down to 7/10 X 7/10 X 7/10= 343/1000 or a probability of 1 in 3 (2.91545...)

So now
In 1 Million spins, a full cycle of RNG, their expected return is
477,000X0 (losses) 343,000X1 ( 3 Cherries) 8000X10 (3 Sevens) 10,000X100 (3 Bars)
So they have bet 1 Million and the slot has returned 343,000+80,000+100,000=523,000

That is just over 52% return! Oops we made our slot a little tight.
Not to worry the punters will never know ;)

And this where the story really starts

OK so now you understand One form of weighting but the same results can be achieved using different methods but they all use the same principle.

You can also see why Three Reel slots might use weighting because the programmers/designers were to lazy to incorporate more reel positions even though they do for 5 reel sots which are obviously more work (That makes no sense does it? Tell it to the shills)

Now the Daddy;
We are told that 5 Reel slots do not use weighting, that the amount of symbols and their order remain the same and the probability of outcome for each and any of the combinations are all exactly equal and remain unaltered.

This is possible by using much longer reel strips and incorporating variance (The frequency and size of wins) into the design.
The return of the slot is only alterable through changes in the paytable (awarding more or less for winning combinations) or by a redesign of the virtual reels.

:lolup::lolup::lolup::lolup:
At least that is what I would say if I worked for One of the Software companies.

The big problem for these purveyors of misinformation though is that unlike 3 Reel slots, where we are not privy to how the weighting is applied and so can not calculate how fair the game is, we can find out the Reel layout of 5 Reel slot and because they tout it as unweighted we can check to see if indeed each combination appears to always have an equal probability as every other.
This is where we find many anomalies in the results that show conclusively either the RNG is faulty or the slots use weighting.

Software developers are becoming very aware of this and they are already trying new methods where weighting would be less conspicuous.

Ever wondered why virtual slot reels are getting longer and longer?
The more combinations there are the harder it is to prove the results are anomalous.
New slots can now have Several Hundred Million combinations, try to pick the anomalies out of that.
There is your answer.

Of course it could be argued that although software developers are too lazy to design 3 Reel slots with a relevant virtual reels they just love the extra work of designing 5 Reel slots with Reels that incorporate over 50 symbols.
That would be a very silly argument indeed but then Casinos and software companies have been making them for Years.

Sorry for putting people through such a hideously long post.

Rusty, that is a great post. It makes my head hurt....but it's great. :thumbsup:

A post worthy of an award if I ever saw one. Not sure I still totally understand, but I definitely have a better grasp than I did before. There are certain things you have to explain to me like I'm a five year old....and math and probabilities, etc. is one of them. Thanks for taking the time to do that. :)
 
Rusty, my head hurts after reading the explaination/example you gave of weighing.
Like Pina, I don't fully understand but now have the concept of what you were explaining. Great job there Rusty and thank you so very much for taking what must of been a heck of alot of time to research that :thumbsup:
 
Rusty, my head hurts after reading the explaination/example you gave of weighing.
Like Pina, I don't fully understand but now have the concept of what you were explaining. Great job there Rusty and thank you so very much for taking what must of been a heck of alot of time to research that :thumbsup:

Thanks Heather.
Can I just point out though that this is not actually researched material but a personal explanation of my position as regards how the software operates from my programming knowledge and experience of game design and how I consider weighting is used and misused through my observations and analysis of various gaming software.

You may take as fact that 3 Reel slots are weighted and there is no argument against this as I have shown in my example.
Some though still argue that 5 Reel slots are not weighted or "programmable" even though all logic and evidence shows otherwise which is why I try to explain these things in easy terms and break the arguments down into simple points of logic.

The point of all this is to hope that One Day a player will know the return of any given slot and know that this slot is not weighted and the return can not be altered except through changes to the paytable or a redesign of the slot.
In both those cases the player should be notified of those changes and how they effect on the game and its return.

Currently we are light Years away from that and worryingly that is the least we should expect.:o
 
This subject crops up more and more especially in regards to MG casinos. If in doubt vote with your wallet and dont play. I doubt the casinos will listen as for every player who stops another bunch are lined up ready to deposit. I stopped MG a while back not granted really for the reasons listed here - I just put it down to personal terminal bad luck. On reflection as a now none MG player I can see (without bias as I aint wagered on mgs for a while now) that some truth has to be in them running a tighter ship with the US fiasco.
Loved all those mind boggling gut busting stats :eek2: in this post:thumbsup: Still trying to fully understand it but a very interesting read.
 
MY luck at MG has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, however this only licks the wounds of LAST year, where the second half was TERRIBLE.

I have changed the games I play, my former favourites have been ditched, and I am promoting other games to be my favourites, not necessarily the new ones.

Despite some bad sessions, I have done well from 4 hand Double Double Bonus Poker, and the new(ish) AWP games introduced a couple of years ago into the download lobby. Former good payers, such as Munchkins, are now consistenty poor, fewer bonus rounds, fewer retriggers, and fewer big payouts. I got the feeling last year that Munchkins had been changed to cut down on bonus rounds.
 
I got the feeling last year that Munchkins had been changed to cut down on bonus rounds.

I get the same feeling & I'm sure others do too with a variety of MG games.

The casinos who feed us the same canned BS responses when we're all on the perpetual losing streak of spiralling bad luck, ironically call foul when we as customers challenge the validity of their games.

At land based casinos such as in Australia and other parts of the world Government gaming commissions make sure these games are legit and not open to manipulation.

Can we really take eCogra's word that MG games are kosher. No! Not even eCogra will unequivocally stand behind any of their SEALED casinos.

In the fine print eCogra states "it cannot offer 100% assurance that the operation of any games at any given site is at all times in accordance with the eCOGRA requirements. Therefore eCOGRA cannot assume responsibility for the consequences resulting from the use of any Internet gaming site bearing the eCOGRA Safe and Fair seal."

The problem as I see it we've all been led to believe that MG are a stand up casino software provider and their games can not be tweaked or manipulated by a casino, maybe this is true that a casino can not tweak MG games.

But can anyone state with 100% conviction and backed with tangible proof that MGS themselves do not manipulate their games...

I've seen a lot of talk & semantics but am yet to see any concrete evidence & hard facts that proves neither MG casinos or MGS are unable to manipulate their casino games.

It would seem that with most new game updates the casino is having to go through a complete re-install. To me that seems like overkill or is just that the games have been tweaked again?

Have we all been conned by a really good marketing campaign? It's possible, it wouldn't be the first time.


Cheers
T
 
MY luck at MG has taken a sharp turn for the better this year, however this only licks the wounds of LAST year, where the second half was TERRIBLE.

I have changed the games I play, my former favourites have been ditched, and I am promoting other games to be my favourites, not necessarily the new ones.

Despite some bad sessions, I have done well from 4 hand Double Double Bonus Poker, and the new(ish) AWP games introduced a couple of years ago into the download lobby. Former good payers, such as Munchkins, are now consistenty poor, fewer bonus rounds, fewer retriggers, and fewer big payouts. I got the feeling last year that Munchkins had been changed to cut down on bonus rounds.

Changed?
So that means the game must be weighted because there were no changes in the reel layout or paytable.

Rusty,

Members of the fairer sex seem to get dizzy when trying to figure out the logic in your post. Maybe it's the length maybe something else. So we know what to do when engaging in arguments with them lol.:D:D

Its definitely the length ChuChu ;)
 
Rusty,

Members of the fairer sex seem to get dizzy when trying to figure out the logic in your post. Maybe it's the length maybe something else. So we know what to do when engaging in arguments with them lol.:D:D
okay so here is one for the mathematicians amongst us, i deposited 50 at a new playtech casino and received a whopping 400% bonus(i know stupid) but it was mainly for my love of the lotto madness slot.....I play 60 pence spins all the way down to my final pound and on my very last 60 pence spin hit my first bonus and receive 4x7(oh no) but it retriggers and gives me a further 21 spins(woohoo) and when these spins finish i am back at 251.30 so i got back all of the losses plus 1.30 and then of course proceeded to lose it all with not another bonus.(mmmmmm) how many of us have been down to our last few credits and got a win or a bonus just to keep you in the game and also put up your overall payout percentage? This way the casino is covered but you can not withdraw.
 
okay so here is one for the mathematicians amongst us, i deposited 50 at a new playtech casino and received a whopping 400% bonus(i know stupid) but it was mainly for my love of the lotto madness slot.....I play 60 pence spins all the way down to my final pound and on my very last 60 pence spin hit my first bonus and receive 4x7(oh no) but it retriggers and gives me a further 21 spins(woohoo) and when these spins finish i am back at 251.30 so i got back all of the losses plus 1.30 and then of course proceeded to lose it all with not another bonus.(mmmmmm) how many of us have been down to our last few credits and got a win or a bonus just to keep you in the game and also put up your overall payout percentage? This way the casino is covered but you can not withdraw.

Yes an astute observation.
The overall return of a game is not the only important factor when we are considering if the game is fair or unweighted.

I am sure others must have noticed that when taking a large bonus any good hits come early on and 99/100 they are followed by very poor returns, sometimes as low as around 50% for sustained periods.

The amount of times I have been slaughtered off a basic deposit only to finaly hit a win on my last couple of Dollars that takes me back to very near my intial deposit only to be followed by another run of nothing is, to be kind, an extraordinary coincidence.

Also especially with RTG I have found many times that when my balance was run down I suddenly hit lots of little wins keeping at about the same level, it all drives the return percentage up yet there was never any possibility of winning.

When you become aware these patterns have repeated many times over you begin to actively look for them and how many times are we surprised by a different outcome?
The longer we play the software the more our psychic abilities seem to increase, no?
 
Well, I have received a newsletter detailing the release of the 4 new games, Mega Moolah Summertime is shown to have a 88% to 89% payout, yet the base game exists, and has a 95% payout. If the claim that MGS do not "cheat" (by weighting), then this must have been achieved through reductions in paytables, or different symbol layouts on the reels. If Mega Moolah Summertime is an EXACT clone, except for the trigger chance for the jackpot wheel, then we would have proof for MG using weighted 5 reel video slots.

Incidentally, 5 Reel Drive, the base game for the previous Mega Moolah release WAS weighted in it's base form, as it was a very old, yet popular, game.
 
I've been saying for quite some time that the odds on these slot games do not remain constant. I always fair better when I can't withdraw. Bonus money is some how luckier than real money. Losing streaks are inevitable but winning streaks are not. Luck almost always seems to change after the payout percentage has been met.

I only play RTG and MG slots. I've come to the realization a long time ago that if I want to play I have to accept the fact that unless I hit a jackpot the software is designed to take back anything I win. Not by having the odds in the house's favor but by eventually changing them so that winning is simply impossible. To me, at some point all online slot games cease to be gambling and at that point you're just handing the money back.

The sad thing is that if these games were actually fair and honest my chances of winning would be exactly the same after spinning 10 thousand times as they are after my first spin. They would be just as good after winning a thousand dollars as they are after making my deposit and they would be as good when I'm playing with real money as they are when I'm playing with bonuses. They are not.

I've pretty much given up on RTG and headed back to MG but the reality is my chances are probably no better there. I figure I'll just lose to some different software for a change of pace.
 
Well, NO MGS casino can ever get away with pulling the stunt Heroes tried recently. If a player won loads playing a modified martingale at MGS blackjack, took no bonus, and was legit, they would have to pay up.

Any attempt by an MG casino to allege a player cheated with "pattern recognition software" would cause quite a stir, and at MGS HQ - who probably have deep pockets and clever lawyers, and said casino would not only be kicked out, but sued for defamation. Pity Galewind didn't set it's lawyers onto Heroes, since their standing their ground that the software was not really random (weak RNG) not only damages the reputation of the one provider, but opens a can of worms for the others.

Much of the discussion surrounding MG seems to be "patterns", and certainly it can look like there are patterns when playing, however, if these patterns exist, they can be beaten. A way to "prove" that MGS is "rigged" with patterns would be to crack them and consistently beat the casino. This would not require spreadsheets and statistical analysis, just a record of total deposits, total withdrawals, and total playthrough, that simply defies the odds for a random set of outcomes.
 
It is possible that weighted software could be exploitable but very unlikely.
It is more likely to be able to exploit rigged software.
I don't think MG games are rigged in the true sense of the word (other than fruit machines) as I believe they retain a random element.
It seems to me a sliding scale of weighting is employed and if that slider is on 60% then no amount of knowledge of that fact will help you win.
It may enable you to maximize any wins though.
 

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