Are the new wave of casinos leaving the old guard behind?

[ChopleyIOM]

Without naming any names, I'm genuinely amazed that a lot of casinos are still in business, including many on the accredited list. This isn't a slur on the accredited list, but a commentary on the fact that so many of these casinos seem to think that nonsense such as 48 hour pending+reversible periods (that don't include weekends and holidays), is somehow acceptable business practice.

My last 18 months of gambling online have been my most active since I first started playing online five years ago, as my gaming credit card's monthly statement will bear testament to eek2, admittedly I have managed to maintain a profit over the last 12 months (although not by much!), but that's only thanks to some pretty decent hits on EV+ bonuses and my land-based UK AWP play, otherwise I've had the kind of results you'd expect playing slots over many hundreds of thousand of spins.

The point is that I've played lots of softwares, across lots of casinos, and I've made lots of cashouts (not always a profitable cashout, but a cashout nonetheless).

My observations are as follows.

At one end of the scale we have what I'm referring to as the 'old guard', these are the traditional casinos, often but not always single-software focused, that have some of the most archaic cashout rules going. They'll wait the full 48 hours before a withdrawal stops being reversible (and if that segues into a weekend, tough luck), THEN they'll ask for docs, THEN they'll say it's referred over to the security department, THEN they'll say it's too late on Friday and the security department have gone home, then you'll finally get approved at the start of the following week and if you're doing well you'll get paid within 7-8 days from originally making the request.

At the other end of the scale we have what I'm calling the 'new wave', these are casinos that appreciate the fact that they're in a competitive marketplace, and that when players win and make a withdrawal, they want to get paid. End of. Please don't dick us around, don't leave withdrawals sat as reversible for days, don't make excuses, we've played fair, we've won fair, please pay us our winnings with the same ease that you're prepared to take our losses.

I've had very good experiences at Redbet, Pinnacle, Sky Vegas, Unibet, 3Dice, Jackpot Party, 32Red (that's just off the top of my head) - these are casinos that measure their payout times in hours if not minutes, where the worst case scenario is you'll get paid at some point the next day. And I don't mean the next working day, I mean the next day be it the weekend or holidays or anything else. (Now some of these casinos aren't 'new wave' of course, but the likes of 32Red understand that they need to be the best when it comes to payout times and CS to make themselves the MG casino of choice - personally speaking I simply won't play MG anywhere else.)

That's my starter for ten now, I simply will not play at a casino that won't pay me the next day, if I withdraw at 2am on a Sunday morning (after a late night Saturday session ), I want that money in my Neteller account by the close of play on Sunday, but preferably at some point during the day, so it's available to me for other play or withdrawing from an ATM with my NET+ card.

I do not believe that's an unreasonable expectation, any casino that can take our money 24 hours per day, should be able to pay out on the same sort of basis.

I know some people have their 'lucky casinos' or like to move from one casino to another if they believe the current one isn't playing well, but frankly I think that's a nonsense, ultimately nearly all online casinos are just frontends to direct client requests to shared backend server infrastructure, as such IMO it's down to what the casinos DO have control over that matters - and the two biggies for me are payout times and customer service.

I can't see a future for casinos that fall into the 'old guard' category, especially with the new sportsbook based casinos really taking hold, which are genuine 24/7/365 operations - 'old guard' casinos need to move with the times, or why would anyone choose to play there?

Or maybe that's just me, what do other CM members think?

 

[goatwack]

Without doubt, this is the reason why I tend not to play at these so- called 'old guard' casinos, most notably many of the MG or Playtech- only Casinos.

Whilst I still love both platforms, I believe when starting gambling that one doesn't care what software, platform or casino is played at, and that any type of cashout - even the 7- 10 day ones- indicate a grand sense of accomplishment.

However, over time I cannot contemplate making an instant deposit at a casino only to be denied my winnings for such a duration, and therefore applaud the ease of use that many of the multi- platform bookies provide. These old guard casinos' draconian methods have become extremely off-putting and have no place in the modern casino industry, given the fact that most people's winnings need to be re-invested quickly......

into more slots!

 

[nisosbar]

Keep in mind as a resident of Europe, you are under less restrictive laws than Americans, so obviously, faced with a choice as follows: 1) steak, 2) caviar, 3) champagne, 4) hamburger, 5) kimchee, and 6) beer, all for the same price, you'll take any of the first three for which you have a mood.

Americans can select any of the last three. With the exception of three or so groups that seem to get most of it (running a casino) right, despite the obstacles.

It's encouraging, as an American, that online options seem to be opening up. Legal online poker went live this past Tuesday in Nevada. Excluding gaming concerns that operated post-UIGEA, slots and other types of gaming online have been legalized (subject to state gaming regulatory authorities) in NJ, Delaware and I think one other state, IIRC, though online casinos in those states haven't yet gotten up and running - predictions are for the end of the year, Thanksgiving-ish. Other states have pending bills for some form of online gaming.

There has also been a steady expansion of B&M casinos into territory which previously was 'virgin' to legal gambling - indeed, I think there are legal casinos operating in a majority of US states now. Atlantic City is losing massive amounts of market share due in large part to this trend.

Getting back to your original point, I don't think anyone disagrees with you. Who would opt to gamble where you have to wait to get paid - if you could gamble elsewhere but DID NOT have to wait to get paid? That would make no sense. I suspect that it's likely that some of the 'old guard' casinos are getting fewer deposits for the same reason that AC is declining - more gaming options. An 'old guard' casino with an existing reputation for slow paying probably endures disproportionate business drought in what is already a challenging business environment.

 

[Mouche12]

Fully agree with what's being said - and I am at a loss as to why those old guard casinos fail to respond to the changed market demands. They could easily go back to quick cashouts 365 days a year, but instead seem adamant to stick to 48-hour payments or even 10 days... These casinos are bound to experience the negative effects of such a strategy - a decreasing number of loyal players.

 

[just play]

Great thread Chopsy Chop

I'm going to sorta add to what Nisobar said. I wonder how quickly we will get paid, how we will be able to deposit/withdrawal, I'm very excited.

Being American at this time in the gambling world is really tough. We don't have the pleasure of getting paid within an hour, or even minutes. Unless some Americans have that one ewallet, I don't, so not sure how quick it is.

When Quicktender was around, I would always get paid the next morning, it was great, I would NEVER reverse back then. Fast forward to now, I reverse quite a bit. Yup, my fault, I'm a bad waiter, lol.

At one end of the scale we have what I'm referring to as the 'old guard', these are the traditional casinos, often but not always single-software focused, that have some of the most archaic cashout rules going. They'll wait the full 48 hours before a withdrawal stops being reversible (and if that segues into a weekend, tough luck), THEN they'll ask for docs, THEN they'll say it's referred over to the security department, THEN they'll say it's too late on Friday and the security department have gone home, then you'll finally get approved at the start of the following week and if you're doing well you'll get paid within 7-8 days from originally making the request.

This is one thing I don't understand...don't these "old guard" casinos want to keep up? I also don't understand why not paying on weekends? I'm not behind the scenes at casinos, and have no idea how many people actually work at one, but even in our local 7-11 they have workers 24 hours a day. Why not hire more than one or 2 cashiers, so their players would be happy, instead of having their players play somewhere else? Doesn't it seem like a win-win for everyone? Quicker we get our money, quicker we deposit, and most of all...we won't leave and go play somewhere else who pays quicker.

 

[Slotster!]

Some great points.

It is absolutely established that, following any required verification procedure, there's no "technical" reason to delay payments. No one should ever play anywhere that your withdrawals take more than 48 hours. It's why I can count the number of casinos I play at on one hand. You're absolutely right; anyone who doesn't keep up will eventually shrivel and die.

 

[dunover]

I can't let this thread go, my soap box almost got itself out..

I'm glad the distinction has been made between N.Americans and us here in the UK and some parts of Europe where we have no restrictions. Honestly speaking, if I suffered the terrible delays that even fast paying casinos have to impose on the Americans, sending cheques or disguised bank transfers that don't get to the winners for 7-14 days I definitely wouldn't bother playing. Too much doubt and frustration, and lack of opportunity to use winnings to play elsewhere next day say.

As for us here in the old Blighty, we are becoming more selective where we play. Banking has moved on in the last few years. I could send Chopley £10 now via online banking and he'd have it in his account, cleared, in a fraction of a second. 24/7. Casinos can do this too, as indeed they often do via payment webwallets.

I recently said I only play MG at VPL sites, and have actually closed them all since experiencing cashouts in minutes from Betsson and Nordicbet, I now only have MG at 32red and use Nordicbet for WMS/Netent. I have a Virgin account for IGT although I seldom ever play there now. I don't play Playtech but if I did would choose the instant payouts of PP or Boyle. RTG I abandoned long ago as even 24-36 hours from Sloto seems slow now.

Fortunately recent developments have made certain sites set their stall by payout times. I say fortunately, because you can now play almost ALL softwares in the UK at a casino that pays in minutes. Like Chopley I have got used to this now and am a member of NO site that has any sort of pending period. Well, technically you can reverse on 32Rred and Virgin but you'd have to be quick. Take a dump, have a bath and watch a TV show (not all at the same time!) and you'll have missed the pending period.

The strange thing is, many casinos know this fast payment is attracting players and giving good publicity to new outfits, yet they persist with low-cost part-time banking systems, and in some cases have even raised from 24 to 48 hours and in the case of Lucky Nugget can even extend to 10 days. Well, I got news for you people - you ain't getting my dollar. Sooner or later you'll be dragged screaming into the real new world or get left behind.

It must sicken the Americans to know how we can deposit 50 pounds to Neteller on a card, play for 2 hours and say w/d 250 and ten minutes later walk to the local ATM and get the 250 in crisp Pound notes literally. Please accept my apologies for reminding you about it, but it's merely to demonstrate why some of us will simply not entertain playing at places with a pending period. It's rapidly becoming pointless and archaic.

I do understand that the big boys tend to be prominent in fast payments and can afford the infrastructure to do so, but surely on MG for example if 32red can do it, why can't FL/VPL/CR? They aren't exactly small groups.

Those who have pending periods will still have the customer base to convince them change is unnecessary. This can and will change very quickly. The UK was the worlds biggest manufacturer of motorbikes in the 1950's. By the 1970's the industry was all but wiped out. Not a brilliant analogy, but an example of how complacency can set in motion a chain of events that can spread so rapidly recovery and reaction is very difficult. I predict very soon that the criteria for accreditation on here won't entertain all but the briefest pending periods where appropriate. The casino can be almost saintly in integrity and honesty, but the goalposts for cashouts are surely moving fast now.

If you want my dough, don't pay me SLOW!

 

[jetset]

Very good points, all and ones that should be read as a reminder by all operators monitoring player opinions here at CM.

Unfortunately I think that the complacency to which dunover refers, perhaps in company with the flow of new and inexperienced players who have yet to become more discerning, influence the thinking of too many operators.

None of this is rocket science for the operator - survey after survey has shown that the points raised so well here are crucially important to most experienced players.

 

[Balthazar]

I'm guilty of sticking with a MG casino that have a 48hrs pending withdrawal period. The only reason why I do it is because I've been playing there for 3+ years and they already have my docs (and I hate sending my docs to too many casinos).


On the other hand, I understand that I'm doing a disservice to the community by sticking with a casino with such questionable practices. I'll stop being lazy one day and make the move to greener pastures.

 

[dunover]

I'm guilty of sticking with a MG casino that have a 48hrs pending withdrawal period. The only reason why I do it is because I've been playing there for 3+ years and they already have my docs (and I hate sending my docs to too many casinos).


On the other hand, I understand that I'm doing a disservice to the community by sticking with a casino with such questionable practices. I'll stop being lazy one day and make the move to greener pastures.

What you have just mentioned is 'customer inertia' - the one thing that propagates poor CS and bad practices. You keep spending, they'll keep doing it as you're obviously aware, and secondly you also mention that new players aren't 'savvy' with the cashout process and speeds. This will change, all it needs is one or two big operators to advertise the fact that they pay verified players in a few hours and even new players will become aware cashouts should be speedy.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I agree with what dunover said above about US players, I do sympathise with the situation they're in, and if I were in that position I just wouldn't play at all TBH, too much hassle and uncertainty - hopefully the outlook is better though now, and US players will soon start to enjoy the convenience and ease of play that much of the rest of the world enjoys.

The 'new wave' of casinos are never going to be uninvented, and as a player, once you've become accustomed to receiving your withdrawals within a couple of hours, the mere concept of waiting days for a withdrawal seems ridiculous, and the very idea of a 'pending period' becomes positively absurd.

This weekend for example I played at Unibet on Friday and Saturday, withdrew from Unibet on Sunday afternoon with a nice profit, safe in the knowledge the cash would be back in my Neteller account for redepositing at 3Dice (Unibet paid in about 75 minutes). Redeposited some at 3Dice, I then had a nice run at 3Dice and made a withdrawal earlier today, 3Dice paid in 35 minutes, which left me free to walk over to an ATM with my NET+ card and withdraw my entire Neteller balance as real hard cash which I can pay into the bank tomorrow. The thing is, to me now, that's normal service, that's how I expect an online casino to be able to operate - the idea that I'd deposit at a casino with ANY mandatory pending period whatsoever is laughable.

There aren't that many softwares out there, but there are lots of casinos to choose from, as a player all I need is one good casino per software, and I'm sorted.

 

[dunover]

I agree with what dunover said above about US players, I do sympathise with the situation they're in, and if I were in that position I just wouldn't play at all TBH, too much hassle and uncertainty - hopefully the outlook is better though now, and US players will soon start to enjoy the convenience and ease of play that much of the rest of the world enjoys.

The 'new wave' of casinos are never going to be uninvented, and as a player, once you've become accustomed to receiving your withdrawals within a couple of hours, the mere concept of waiting days for a withdrawal seems ridiculous, and the very idea of a 'pending period' becomes positively absurd.

This weekend for example I played at Unibet on Friday and Saturday, withdrew from Unibet on Sunday afternoon with a nice profit, safe in the knowledge the cash would be back in my Neteller account for redepositing at 3Dice (Unibet paid in about 75 minutes). Redeposited some at 3Dice, I then had a nice run at 3Dice and made a withdrawal earlier today, 3Dice paid in 35 minutes, which left me free to walk over to an ATM with my NET+ card and withdraw my entire Neteller balance as real hard cash which I can pay into the bank tomorrow. The thing is, to me now, that's normal service, that's how I expect an online casino to be able to operate - the idea that I'd deposit at a casino with ANY mandatory pending period whatsoever is laughable.

There aren't that many softwares out there, but there are lots of casinos to choose from, as a player all I need is one good casino per software, and I'm sorted.

Yep, pretty much my sentiments. PP/Boyle for Playtech. Virgin/Sky for IGT 32red/GL/Nedplay for MG. Betsson/NordicBet for Netent/WMS and JPP solely for WMS. You could theoretically play all these casinos in 24 hours with the same deposit of 100 quid (assuming you neither won or lost of course except the Neteller 1.75%) simply because they would cashout to you in an average of an hour or maybe less. If you had a big-boy win they'd have it in your bank account in 2 working days assuming you didn't want it to go into a webwallet.

 

[RikkiGT-R]

Totally agree Chopley.
Payout processing times and withdrawal limits (within reason) are a huge negative in my eyes. I will not under any circumstances join a casino that has a "pending period" of any kind (unless they have the ability to flush).
A pending period is there for one reason alone; to tempt the player into reversing their withdrawal, and hopefully losing it.
Even if money is not sent immediately to one's card(s), I still appreciate it when I withdraw (and flush where applicable) and the money is gone from my casino balance.

 

[mclee321]

I think we are a way off Chopley. The vast majority of online players are not conscious like the members here, in regards to the ever changing and nebulous nature of playing online. We dissect and analyse everything, but are a tiny minority.

Consider this -
Partycasino - 6 Million players
888 - 5 Million players
William Hill - 3 Million players

We know these casinos are utter crap, and generally treat their customers as afterthoughts or inconveniences. The players have to be ignorant that infinitely better options are available. Theses places will continue to attract custom due to brand recognition, and a stellar advertising budget (sponsorship, tv ads etc).

The customers will continue to act as happy mendicants, pleased with any crumbs dropping off the masters table.

I think it will take someone like 32Red to change this, with a million players and rising, and with genuine visibility to the public. More and more players might try the change and realise how badly things were done at their usual haunts.

 

[hoff1985]

That makes me once again dream about the good old Virgin Casino (when Swiss Players were still allowed there and when they had the great variety...). You pushed the "CASHOUT" button, and 20 seconds later you had the money on Skrill.... That was insane!!

I totally agree with your points, although if you want to play a specific Software you may have to live with the rules because not for every Software you have a "fast paying" casino available

 

[Slotster!]

That makes me once again dream about the good old Virgin Casino (when Swiss Players were still allowed there and when they had the great variety...). You pushed the "CASHOUT" button, and 20 seconds later you had the money on Skrill.... That was insane!!

Yeah - BlueSq used to do that, as did Intercasino once upon a time. It was ace.

Proves that it CAN be automated...