Markus VS TradaCasino (Viaden Gaming)

[IanO]

Every player has the intention to win money while gambling. And everyone should have the right to do the best he can, as long he don't violates any rule or uses fraud. If someone is not doing well and loses more money than he wins, than the solution should be, that he becomes himself an advantage player. He should not blame other players for his bad success, because he is in control of his own success.

I would like to expand on one of the comments I made earlier. Not only are you a skilled mathematician but also clearly an accomplished word smith. Have you considered a career in politics? This is even more impressive assuming English is your second language so Kudos to you on that, but just how stupid do you think I and the other members of this forum are? You can dance around the truth as long as you like, but you will not pull the wool over the eyes of most members here.

As you decided not to answer my question directly but instead just skip around it like some magician distracting us from the card up your sleeve, allow me to do so for you. It is players like you that lead to 'spirit of the bonus' rules and other arbitrary catch-all terms to be introduced. Nifty is spot on... you make things worse for everyone else. To be clear, when I say 'you' I do not mean 'advantage players'. I mean you. Your actions take 'advantage play' to a level I will never condone.

You know what you did was wrong. If you dont then you're not nearly as smart as I'm giving you credit for. You will never admit it however, and I doubt you will ever change, so I dont intend to waste much more of my time in this thread. If I were still a rep for a playtech casino I would quickly be scanning our database to make sure you're not on it. I wonder how many other reps looking at this thread are doing just that?

 

[Seventh777]

And again: No casino software provider is that insane that he would blindly trust the client. This is either intended or an implementation error.

An error that you could... A). Exploit. or..... B). Report.

When/if you play an online FPS/MMO game you encounter players that shoot or kill you in adverse scenarios ie:- through scenery, do you think this is down to *insane* software providers trusting clients or down to players exploiting server data coding?.

 

[Nifty29]

Sorry for my bad english. What I meant was: "But because their official client is not able to make this bet". It is possible to make this bets, just not with their official client.
And again: No casino software provider is that insane that he would blindly trust the client. This is either intended or an implementation error.

PS: I'm currently very sleepy, that might be the reason why I have used the wrong word. Now it's time to get some sleep.

So now its bad English? LMAO.

Funny how you haven't struggled with the language earlier.

For someone who proports to be intelligent, you are totally clueless. The degree of disregard for your fellow players is astonishing.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have another brick wall to talk to and a supermarket to visit to test a theory....

 

[Seventh777]

I would like to expand on one of the comments I made earlier. Not only are you a skilled mathematician but also clearly an accomplished word smith. Have you considered a career in politics? This is even more impressive assuming English is your second language so Kudos to you on that, but just how stupid do you think I and the other members of this forum are? You can dance around the truth as long as you like, but you will not pull the wool over the eyes of most members here.

As you decided not to answer my question directly but instead just skip around it like some magician distracting us from the card up your sleeve, allow me to do so for you. It is players like you that lead to 'spirit of the bonus' rules and other arbitrary catch-all terms to be introduced. Nifty is spot on... you make things worse for everyone else. To be clear, when I say 'you' I do not mean 'advantage players'. I mean you. Your actions take 'advantage play' to a level I will never condone.

You know what you did was wrong. If you dont then you're not nearly as smart as I'm giving you credit for. You will never admit it however, and I doubt you will ever change, so I dont intend to waste much more of my time in this thread. If I were still a rep for a playtech casino I would quickly be scanning our database to make sure you're not on it. I wonder how many other reps looking at this thread are doing just that?

Trust me, I use many forums that incorporate paid shills, i`m quite surprised he hasn`t used the character assassination card, do you think that anyone with the intelligence to script software that overrides recipient server data honestly thinks he is innocent thus not breaking any rules? .

 

[Seventh777]

So now its bad English? LMAO.

Funny how you haven't struggled with the language earlier.

For someone who proports to be intelligent, you are totally clueless. The degree of disregard for your fellow players is astonishing.


Now if you'll excuse me, I have another brick wall to talk to and a supermarket to visit to test a theory....

I can see the headlines "Man is arrested then released on the grounds of an overlooked flaw in the `Dumping in freezers act 1953`, it appears this is not a criminal offence if the perpetrator has at any time in their life been shopping with a woman that has bore children".

 

[Pinababy69]

I hope Bryan contacts every casino he knows with this guys details so he can be barred from every respectable operator on the net.

I'd love to see how he goes with only rogues.....

So do I Nifty. He should be banned from every casino on the net, period. He can play with words all he wants, fact of the matter is that he manipulated the software...end of story.

Call me naive, but honestly, I didn't even think it would be possible to "hack" casino software, in any way, shape or form. Now some of the accusations of fraud that we read make more sense, as does the casino's reluctance to reveal details of this fraud. God only knows how inventive these fraudsters have become.

I also quickly scanned some of Markus's previous posts, and now much of it all makes sense. Closed accounts, accusations of fraud, voided winnings....and this is the guy whose Moneybookers account was raided by Betfair and his winnings returned to them by Moneybookers. While I still don't believe that MB has the right to just remove money from a customer's account...it certainly sheds a new light on the whole case. Quote from Markus in the Betfair thread:

I would also expect from Moneybookers, that they only reverse funds if there is any hard evidence. But this can't be the case, because I haven't violated any rule.

Everything I said is 100% correct and the truth. However I'm currently not willing to reveal all details about my advantage play, thats all, sorry. This maybe fall into "not telling the whole story".

I suspect that Betfair did indeed provide MB with the "hard evidence" that he refers to. It is manipulation of software and it is fraud....regardless of how you want to spin it.

This is also the guy that deposited 250 Euros into 3Dice, by "funding" his MB account through them, thus cutting out the fees for himself. And then proceeded to take 100 one cent spins on a slot machine, and then wanted to withdraw the lot, and got pissed off because 3Dice charged him 40 Euros in fees. Can you say money laundering? I had remembered the case, but forgotten it was this player/poster. He certainly seems to have figured out all the tricks hasn't he?

As many others have stated, it is this type of player that I despise....and that has made it so hard for all of us everyday, by the book, players....who are more than willing to play by the rules. All the over the top ID requests, the pages of legalese masquerading as T & C's, and so on.......everyone say thanks to Markus, and others just like him.

Ban his ass....from here, and from every casino willing to ban him.

Thread reported BTW, just to make sure that Bryan can't miss it. And I'll follow up with him too if he doesn't post here.

 

[mattsgame]

So do I Nifty. He should be banned from every casino on the net, period. He can play with words all he wants, fact of the matter is that he manipulated the software...end of story.

Call me naive, but honestly, I didn't even think it would be possible to "hack" casino software, in any way, shape or form. Now some of the accusations of fraud that we read make more sense, as does the casino's reluctance to reveal details of this fraud. God only knows how inventive these fraudsters have become.

I also quickly scanned some of Markus's previous posts, and now much of it all makes sense. Closed accounts, accusations of fraud, voided winnings....and this is the guy whose Moneybookers account was raided by Betfair and his winnings returned to them by Moneybookers. While I still don't believe that MB has the right to just remove money from a customer's account...it certainly sheds a new light on the whole case. Quote from Markus in the Betfair thread:




I suspect that Betfair did indeed provide MB with the "hard evidence" that he refers to. It is manipulation of software and it is fraud....regardless of how you want to spin it.

This is also the guy that deposited 250 Euros into 3Dice, by "funding" his MB account through them, thus cutting out the fees for himself. And then proceeded to take 100 one cent spins on a slot machine, and then wanted to withdraw the lot, and got pissed off because 3Dice charged him 40 Euros in fees. Can you say money laundering? I had remembered the case, but forgotten it was this player/poster. He certainly seems to have figured out all the tricks hasn't he?

As many others have stated, it is this type of player that I despise....and that has made it so hard for all of us everyday, by the book, players....who are more than willing to play by the rules. All the over the top ID requests, the pages of legalese masquerading as T & C's, and so on.......everyone say thanks to Markus, and others just like him.

Ban his ass....from here, and from every casino willing to ban him.

Thread reported BTW, just to make sure that Bryan can't miss it. And I'll follow up with him too if he doesn't post here.

Wow, nice detective work Pina.. this just makes it more absurd with my statements above.. How has he got away with this sort of shit for so long.

Hope your shovel is not too heavy Markus because your hole is getting bigger and bigger and I have feeling more may come to light.

 

[jetset]

Perhaps the sole value of this fellow's 'work' here for most reading this thread is that it highlights vulnerabilities that can be attended to by the alert and the smart.

And it perhaps helps to identify him as the last sort of person an operator wants on his playerbase.

I have to wonder whether there is not some other motive for Markus embarking on this thread: boasting? perhaps a desire to attract a few like-minded players from whom he can extract an advantage by sharing his 'technique' and software expertise...or maybe just some good old-fashioned pressure to get the casino to pay?

His history and current rather arrogant and apparently ethically challenged attitude do little to encourage any belief in his honesty or respect for him as a Casinomeister member i.m.o.

 

[Seventh777]

Wow, nice detective work Pina.. this just makes it more absurd with my statements above.. How has he got away with this sort of shit for so long.

Hope your shovel is not too heavy Markus because your hole is getting bigger and bigger and I have feeling more may come to light.

Awesome detective work indeed. The alarm bells for me began ringing when the only exposure of Markus using his *legit* software is when the security screen of some casino has stumbled upon it`s usage, as we all know - Innocent men have nothing to hide, i`m pretty sure that at the very least, if I had created a perfectly *legit* software that could create bets that were otherwise unavailable and increased my advantage play considerably, I would have a severe outbreak of gloatednessobia and a large portion of forum bragging rights.

Who in all their (and I mean this in it`s most sincere aspect) honesty - would keep such a pearl completely quiet on a forum that thrives on such stuff, hell if I were a gambling man i`d even put money on certain people would openly pay for such *legit* software.

Legend.. * = It is our joint belief that the word legit should be open for debate in it`s current context of relating to flawed understanding of terms and conditions, which cover many different aspects and scenarios, but not all, thus not naming every breach of the rules does not adhere to those un-named breaches not being in the terms and conditions as a reflection of them not being a breach of the rules.

Hope this clears things up .

 

[SlotMonster]

Trada Casino

Hello everyone,

First of all I would like to apology for the delay in response: yesterday I was going to bed when I saw this thread.

Also I would like to thank all forum members for their input in this thread.

The case is: the OP registered at Trada Casino and made two deposits (20 and 50 EUR). The first deposit was lost, then the OP made another deposit and managed to build the bankroll to €1381, mostly playing Blackjack Switch. After he submitted a withdrawal, his bets history was analysed, and it was found that he was was making bets which were impossible in casino client. For example, there are many bets where bet amounts are different for boxes #1 and #2 (as you know, in Blackjack Switch you have to make equal bets on two boxes).

Below is an example from the OP's bet history:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As you can see, two different bets were made on boxes #1 and #2, when they should have been equal. It gives players an advantage over the casino, because when they switch the cards - the better hand could be built for the bigger bet.

The casino client was immediately tested, and it was found out that it's impossible to make such bets using it. It also means that the OP used an external software. He also admitted it in his email to Casino Support.

The OP's account was closed, and all his winnings (including his deposits) were confiscated. The casino explained the player why his payout was cancelled (a part of communication was revealed in the first post).

According to their T&Cs, the OP used prohibited SW to make bets casino server wouldn't accept, if these bets were made using "official" casino client.

There is another rule (very unspecific one, I must admit, but it will be fixed very soon) :

Malfunction voids all plays and winnings!

For casino it means that if something went wrong, i.e. server accepted bets it didn't mean to accept for example, all game results will be voided, and initial balance reinstated (even if players lost their money).

I also explaining everything in the PM to the OP, when he contacted me regarding this issue. The only I would be able to do for him is to ask the Casino to refund his deposits.

I expected that Casino's decision won't satisfy the OP (obviously), that's why because I advised to submit a complaint to the IOM Gambling Commission or IBAS. Trada Casino is regulated by the IOM Gambling commission, so if they decide that the OP's reasons are solid - the casino will pay of course.

If you have any questions - please, feel free to ask.

P.S. I would like to ask the moderators to change the title of this thread, because it may damage casino's reputation. Trada Casino is very new casino (just few weeks since their launch), and this title, once appeared in Google search results, may give wrong impression to the potential players.

 

[LaHutti]

Well I think most, if not all members here agree to the casino's decision, and I don't think this player has a case at all.

 

[P.V.]

Hello everyone,

First of all I would like to apology for the delay in response: yesterday I was going to bed when I saw this thread.

Also I would like to thank all forum members for their input in this thread.

The case is: the OP registered at Trada Casino and made two deposits (20 and 50 EUR). The first deposit was lost, then the OP made another deposit and managed to build the bankroll to €1381, mostly playing Blackjack Switch. After he submitted a withdrawal, his bets history was analysed, and it was found that he was was making bets which were impossible in casino client. For example, there are many bets where bet amounts are different for boxes #1 and #2 (as you know, in Blackjack Switch you have to make equal bets on two boxes).

Below is an example from the OP's bet history:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

As you can see, two different bets were made on boxes #1 and #2, when they should have been equal. It gives players an advantage over the casino, because when they switch the cards - the better hand could be built for the bigger bet.

The casino client was immediately tested, and it was found out that it's impossible to make such bets using it. It also means that the OP used an external software. He also admitted it in his email to Casino Support.

The OP's account was closed, and all his winnings (including his deposits) were confiscated. The casino explained the player why his payout was cancelled (a part of communication was revealed in the first post).

According to their T&Cs, the OP used prohibited SW to make bets casino server wouldn't accept, if these bets were made using "official" casino client.

There is another rule (very unspecific one, I must admit, but it will be fixed very soon) : For casino it means that if something went wrong, i.e. server accepted bets it didn't mean to accept for example, all game results will be voided, and initial balance reinstated (even if players lost their money).

I also explaining everything in the PM to the OP, when he contacted me regarding this issue. The only I would be able to do for him is to ask the Casino to refund his deposits.

I expected that Casino's decision won't satisfy the OP (obviously), that's why because I advised to submit a complaint to the IOM Gambling Commission or IBAS. Trada Casino is regulated by the IOM Gambling commission, so if they decide that the OP's reasons are solid - the casino will pay of course.

If you have any questions - please, feel free to ask.

P.S. I would like to ask the moderators to change the title of this thread, because it may damage casino's reputation. Trada Casino is very new casino (just few weeks since their launch), and this title, once appeared in Google search results, may give wrong impression to the potential players.

Thanks Viktar for sharing, fill the internal gap and move on as this person is clearly a cheat.

 

[maxd]

Thread title changed.

 

[Markus]

At the time I have posted this thread I have expected to receive some critical comments. But I'm astonished about this 'running the gauntlet', really everyone is against me. It looks like everyone is trying to bend the Terms & Conditions until I violate some rule. But the fact is, I have not violated any specific rule.

I will refrain from submitting complaints to IBAS and the Gambling Commission, as it looks nobody is understanding the point I'm making. I don't expect that the people from IBAS and the Gambling Commission are any different from the Casinomeister members.

But at the very least I should get my deposits returned, especially after SlotMonster has quoted the rule

Malfunction voids all plays and winnings!

TradaCasino might have a case to confiscate my winnings, even though I have risked my own funds, but they have absolutely no right to confiscate my deposits.

The suggestion from some members to ban me is harsh. If I have really violated the Terms & Conditions from TradaCasino then I'm a only a rule violator. I'm not a fraudster and never was one. I have also not violated the forum rules and I was always truthful.

 

[Nifty29]

At the time I have posted this thread I have expected to receive some critical comments. But I'm astonished about this 'running the gauntlet', really everyone is against me. It looks like everyone is trying to bend the Terms & Conditions until I violate some rule. But the fact is, I have not violated any specific rule.

I will refrain from submitting complaints to IBAS and the Gambling Commission, as it looks nobody is understanding the point I'm making. I don't expect that the people from IBAS and the Gambling Commission are any different from the Casinomeister members.

But at the very least I should get my deposits returned, especially after SlotMonster has quoted the rule

TradaCasino might have a case to confiscate my winnings, even though I have risked my own funds, but they have absolutely no right to confiscate my deposits.

The suggestion from some members to ban me is harsh. If I have really violated the Terms & Conditions from TradaCasino then I'm a only a rule violator. I'm not a fraudster and never was one. I have also not violated the forum rules and I was always truthful.

LOL.

If someone was as convinced of their innocence as you claim to be, they would submit a complaint to anyone and everyone. The fact is that you KNOW you're a fraudster.....yes you are.....and you know that any complaint service would look at your claim for about 13 seconds before coming to the same conclusion.

Normally I would support returning of deposits, but in this case its just giving this joker a free shot and the deposits should be considered as "damages" for misuse of their product.

Your ilk are the reason innocent players get treated as "guilty until proven innocent" when cashing out.

IMPO, admitting using third-party software to manipulate casino games is most certainly a violation of the forum rules, if not technically then at least morally and ethically. You dont often see members calling for someone to be banned en masse so that should give you an idea of how the membership feels about your exploits.

Feel free to keep posting in the meantime however, as you make that hole just that little bit deeper each time......along with providing me with some great comic relief.

 

[Casinomeister]

Every player has the intention to win money while gambling. And everyone should have the right to do the best he can, as long he don't violates any rule or uses fraud...

At the time I have posted this thread I have expected to receive some critical comments. But I'm astonished about this 'running the gauntlet', really everyone is against me. It looks like everyone is trying to bend the Terms & Conditions until I violate some rule. But the fact is, I have not violated any specific rule.

I will refrain from submitting complaints to IBAS and the Gambling Commission, as it looks nobody is understanding the point I'm making. I don't expect that the people from IBAS and the Gambling Commission are any different from the Casinomeister members...

But you did defraud the casino. Obviously you don't see this since no one here has convinced you that what you did was 100% wrong.

Just because you say you didn't commit fraud doesn't mean you are not committing fraud. You can put a gun in my face and say you're not robbing me as you take my wallet, but you're still robbing me.

The suggestion from some members to ban me is harsh. If I have really violated the Terms & Conditions from TradaCasino then I'm a only a rule violator. I'm not a fraudster and never was one. I have also not violated the forum rules and I was always truthful.

You still don't get it. You're a rule violator, sure. But committing fraud more or less flushes your membership here down the toilet:

1.10 - Members who commit player fraud (chargebacks, fake accounts, gnoming, multiple accounts, etc.) will be banned from the forum.
...

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

Using software to manipulate the games is player fraud - you should have known better. If you had asked the casino permission to use this software in advance, that would have been an entirely different situation. And if you did, what do you think their answer would have been?

It may be harsh to ban your account, but that's the way it is. We have zero tolerance for player fraud. Unfortunately, Casinomeister's forum is not a good match for you. There are plenty of forums that condone and encourage this type of behavior; this forum is not one of them.

 

[jstrike]

I know this is gonna be a massively unpopular statement, especially in light of Bryan's last post, but I hope you'll see my reasons for making it. I completely support Trada's position, even if they withhold his deposit. I hope Markus is roundly banned from every casino he walks into. But there's less of a chance of that happening -- and of other fraudsters being caught out -- if he's banned from this board. I hope Markus here is not banned from CM. If he had not felt comfortable "coming out" about this here, we would never have known about it. This thread did something for me... it made me go back into my TOS last night and check what was written there about this kind of scenario, and it made me double-check some of my server bet-accept code. It made me tighten up my own ship, and I stayed up most of the night making sure it would be airtight against Markus's kind of attack. I'm glad I know about it. I've had suspicions of people pulling stunts like this on my site before, but in many ways I'm afraid to act against them because if I were somehow reading the evidence wrong, it would be me who was at fault, and I don't want to make false accusations. I'm glad this case was all laid out here for everyone to see.

I feel like it's useful to both reps and players to allow this stuff to come out here. Sunlight's the best disinfectant. I thought someone should make the unpopular case for the defense, anyway, although the whole thing and the brick wall attitude leaves me disgusted.

 

[Casinomeister]

I know this is gonna be a massively unpopular statement, especially in light of Bryan's last post, but I hope you'll see my reasons for making it. I completely support Trada's position, even if they withhold his deposit. I hope Markus is roundly banned from every casino he walks into. But there's less of a chance of that happening -- and of other fraudsters being caught out -- if he's banned from this board. I hope Markus here is not banned from CM. If he had not felt comfortable "coming out" about this here, we would never have known about it. This thread did something for me... it made me go back into my TOS last night and check what was written there about this kind of scenario, and it made me double-check some of my server bet-accept code. It made me tighten up my own ship, and I stayed up most of the night making sure it would be airtight against Markus's kind of attack. I'm glad I know about it. I've had suspicions of people pulling stunts like this on my site before, but in many ways I'm afraid to act against them because if I were somehow reading the evidence wrong, it would be me who was at fault, and I don't want to make false accusations. I'm glad this case was all laid out here for everyone to see.

I feel like it's useful to both reps and players to allow this stuff to come out here. Sunlight's the best disinfectant. I thought someone should make the unpopular case for the defense, anyway, although the whole thing and the brick wall attitude leaves me disgusted.

I fully understand where you are coming from - Markus has provided everyone with a wealth of information, and has stimulated a really interesting topic. Unfortunately, he went about it the wrong way. He was exploiting the board for his own $$$ gain.

If he had began a thread - "Hey, I have developed some really cool software! Can casino reps give me some feedback on this? Can I use this at your casino or not? If not, why?" then he'd still be here. And we would be debating different aspects of this, and learning a lot about how these things work. But instead of this approach, he chose to attack the casino with accusations of "stealing".

This is where we have to draw the line. There are far too many players who will use these message boards to blackmail or threaten casinos. And this what was happening here thus the zero tolerance policy. Sorry to shoot down the conversation prematurely

 

[jstrike]

I fully understand where you are coming from - Markus has provided everyone with a wealth of information, and has stimulated a really interesting topic. Unfortunately, he went about it the wrong way. He was exploiting the board for his own $$$ gain.

If he had began a thread - "Hey, I have developed some really cool software! Can casino reps give me some feedback on this? Can I use this at your casino or not? If not, why?" then he'd still be here. And we would be debating different aspects of this, and learning a lot about how these things work. But instead of this approach, he chose to attack the casino with accusations of "stealing".

This is where we have to draw the line. There are far too many players who will use these message boards to blackmail or threaten casinos. And this what was happening here thus the zero tolerance policy. Sorry to shoot down the conversation prematurely

Makes plenty of sense. Just thought I'd speak up.

On a side note, this kind of software can be really hard to detect unless you comb through every bet a player's making. That costs the casino time and money, slows down withdrawals, and it's really the cause of most of the hassles that innocent players get put through. The problem is, even when you're looking at a bet history that just ain't right somehow, you can't see what they were using to do it. So you have a short period of time before you process the withdrawal, to prove there's no way it could've happened in the real client, no way the server could've messed up, and then figure out what they must've written to tap into the data. And of course you don't want anyone to find out how it happened - or even that it did happen, if you care what investors think. That's why so often this gets swept under the rug, and it ends up making the casinos more paranoid, which just hurts the players.

I know people in the industry who go around checking out what kind of data's getting sent back and forth to different kinds of casino software, looking for weaknesses. I've heard some real amazing ones. I heard the other day about a very respectable guy who figured out how to get into anyone's account on a certain piece of software. He didn't do anything with it but report it. Heck when someone shows me a new piece of casino software, the first thing I want to know is how well it's written, and whether it can be hacked in five minutes. In the early days there were all those incidents of hole cards being sent over the wire -- that was just stupid, but it's surprising how many other problems there still are like that, even in the newest software. Especially now that so much stuff is outsourced, where cheap programmers with no security experience make rookie mistakes.

Enforcing matching bets in a game like Blackjack Switch and Three Card Poker can actually be a costly server process depending on what your architecture looks like. You have to check it each step of the way, and make sure the data wasn't changed, but you also have to make sure that while a player's making or changing one bet, he's got enough in his account to make or keep the second one.

It seems amazing someone would take the time to figure out that even could be hacked, but the only amazing thing here is that it came to light at all. Site operators face this kind of stuff all the time... these guys aren't players, they're hackers. They're not there to gamble and win, they're just looking for a way to steal. And from our end, we're blind, because they can duplicate whatever the client software's doing, and tweak whatever they want to. We can log and record everything and look for oddities, but the more you record every little thing the more mountains of data there are to sift through, and plus it slows down your servers.

Anyway, now I'm rambling like an engineer. This has been enlightening, though. I hope we'll get more conversations about these kinds of things. I should start sharing some of these stories and seeing if other reps are willing to talk about it too.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Makes plenty of sense. Just thought I'd speak up.

On a side note, this kind of software can be really hard to detect unless you comb through every bet a player's making. That costs the casino time and money, slows down withdrawals, and it's really the cause of most of the hassles that innocent players get put through. The problem is, even when you're looking at a bet history that just ain't right somehow, you can't see what they were using to do it. So you have a short period of time before you process the withdrawal, to prove there's no way it could've happened in the real client, no way the server could've messed up, and then figure out what they must've written to tap into the data. And of course you don't want anyone to find out how it happened - or even that it did happen, if you care what investors think. That's why so often this gets swept under the rug, and it ends up making the casinos more paranoid, which just hurts the players.

I know people in the industry who go around checking out what kind of data's getting sent back and forth to different kinds of casino software, looking for weaknesses. I've heard some real amazing ones. I heard the other day about a very respectable guy who figured out how to get into anyone's account on a certain piece of software. He didn't do anything with it but report it. Heck when someone shows me a new piece of casino software, the first thing I want to know is how well it's written, and whether it can be hacked in five minutes. In the early days there were all those incidents of hole cards being sent over the wire -- that was just stupid, but it's surprising how many other problems there still are like that, even in the newest software. Especially now that so much stuff is outsourced, where cheap programmers with no security experience make rookie mistakes.

Enforcing matching bets in a game like Blackjack Switch and Three Card Poker can actually be a costly server process depending on what your architecture looks like. You have to check it each step of the way, and make sure the data wasn't changed, but you also have to make sure that while a player's making or changing one bet, he's got enough in his account to make or keep the second one.

It seems amazing someone would take the time to figure out that even could be hacked, but the only amazing thing here is that it came to light at all. Site operators face this kind of stuff all the time... these guys aren't players, they're hackers. They're not there to gamble and win, they're just looking for a way to steal. And from our end, we're blind, because they can duplicate whatever the client software's doing, and tweak whatever they want to. We can log and record everything and look for oddities, but the more you record every little thing the more mountains of data there are to sift through, and plus it slows down your servers.

Anyway, now I'm rambling like an engineer. This has been enlightening, though. I hope we'll get more conversations about these kinds of things. I should start sharing some of these stories and seeing if other reps are willing to talk about it too.

Please do. I bet many "players" are relying on the desire to "sweep this under the rug" in order to present a watertight case that even when a casino stands it's ground, it consigns itself to perceived roguedom because the "player" can prove every aspect of their case that relates to what is in the public domain about how software is secured and operated. Casino software is marketed as "100% secure" and using "128 but encryption" to make players feel comfortable, but by the same token a claim based on the fact that the software has the security of a collander is often dismissed as "bollocks" by the player community, thus condeming the casino to rot in roguedom as the price for keeping their poor coding quiet.

Although bots are common, and a bot is not really any different from a third party casino client. The fact that someone can program a casino client from scratch without using any form of decompiler and/or deep packet sniffing also has me thinking "bollocks" where said client works so smoothly with the server that it is BETTER than the original.

This story has made it clear that the problem is far, far, WORSE than I could have imagined, and that the casino software being used online is in fact WORSE for "emptiers" than all those Fruit machines that were regularly emptied time and time again by savvy players.

What we have here is nothing short of a "Viaden emptier", similar in type to the fruitie emptiers that needed "third party devices" such as spark generators to reboot the game at strategically chosen intervals to cause data to be lost rather than recorded against running RTP.

I suspect using a third party client to trick the server into accepting bets it shouldn't would fall under the computer misuse act in the UK, and equivalents elsewhere. It is the game manipulation that violates this law, rather than the use of a third party client itself, and makes this a potential criminal matter. A complaint to any regulator would be of no use, so Viaden can rest assured that Markus is bluffing. If his deposit is returned, he won't have a leg to stand on. He could also be taken to court by Viaden to claim damages for the costs incurred in dealing with this, which will end up being orders of magnitude greater than the two deposits.

It takes a particularly skilled programmer to pull of something like this and not get busted for several years, so very few players need have their withdrawals delayed as most players can be screened through the use of an automated check of their play history to make sure that all the bets are valid, and if so, no need to look further unless something else has aroused suspicions.

Operators can also run more detailed analyses on a dedicated system in order to gather intelligence on anything that is being missed. Doing this means that the service need not be disrupted for players since the live servers will only be doing what they already do, recording each transactions.

Operators should also consider offering large bounties for first discovery of any errors, and make the bounty large enough that it is a more attractive reward than exploiting the exploit.


In general, banning Markus from every online casino could lead to a long term problem. He may decide that he can no longer play himself as he is "marked" for life, and may consider selling his third party "tweaked" clients on the black market to other advantage players and outright scammers. I expect something this effective will command a high price for the first release, similar to the high prices being asked for "fruitie emptiers" that have been deliberately set by the programmers themselves, some of which had an asking price of over £5000, if not more when only distributed by word of mouth.

The fact that this third party client has been hammering Playtech casinos for years before coming to light shows just how serious the problem is. It could be happening with the other major softwares, but has yet to come to light.

The Microgaming client is so riddled with bugs that I have to wonder what can be achieved by a hacker as skilled as Markus at delving under the bonnet and separating the true exploits from the run of the mill bugs.

 

[Seventh777]

Makes plenty of sense. Just thought I'd speak up.

On a side note, this kind of software can be really hard to detect unless you comb through every bet a player's making. That costs the casino time and money, slows down withdrawals, and it's really the cause of most of the hassles that innocent players get put through. The problem is, even when you're looking at a bet history that just ain't right somehow, you can't see what they were using to do it. So you have a short period of time before you process the withdrawal, to prove there's no way it could've happened in the real client, no way the server could've messed up, and then figure out what they must've written to tap into the data. And of course you don't want anyone to find out how it happened - or even that it did happen, if you care what investors think. That's why so often this gets swept under the rug, and it ends up making the casinos more paranoid, which just hurts the players.

I know people in the industry who go around checking out what kind of data's getting sent back and forth to different kinds of casino software, looking for weaknesses. I've heard some real amazing ones. I heard the other day about a very respectable guy who figured out how to get into anyone's account on a certain piece of software. He didn't do anything with it but report it. Heck when someone shows me a new piece of casino software, the first thing I want to know is how well it's written, and whether it can be hacked in five minutes. In the early days there were all those incidents of hole cards being sent over the wire -- that was just stupid, but it's surprising how many other problems there still are like that, even in the newest software. Especially now that so much stuff is outsourced, where cheap programmers with no security experience make rookie mistakes.

Enforcing matching bets in a game like Blackjack Switch and Three Card Poker can actually be a costly server process depending on what your architecture looks like. You have to check it each step of the way, and make sure the data wasn't changed, but you also have to make sure that while a player's making or changing one bet, he's got enough in his account to make or keep the second one.

It seems amazing someone would take the time to figure out that even could be hacked, but the only amazing thing here is that it came to light at all. Site operators face this kind of stuff all the time... these guys aren't players, they're hackers. They're not there to gamble and win, they're just looking for a way to steal. And from our end, we're blind, because they can duplicate whatever the client software's doing, and tweak whatever they want to. We can log and record everything and look for oddities, but the more you record every little thing the more mountains of data there are to sift through, and plus it slows down your servers.

Anyway, now I'm rambling like an engineer. This has been enlightening, though. I hope we'll get more conversations about these kinds of things. I should start sharing some of these stories and seeing if other reps are willing to talk about it too.

I read your post with interest especially how hard it is for you guys to detect instances like this, can`t you guys use similar software that the big online gaming companies use?, the makers of WoW (Blizzard Entertainment) use one named Warden, which is uber efficient at locating illegal 3rd party software, these are mainly focused on the farming bots that the Chinese dudes use to farm gold and sell in breach of the EULA, an example of how good this software is, a former guildie whom was about to leave the game for good d/l a farming bot and was giving us a detailed analysis via guild chat, the last we heard from him was `Okay, turning it on now`, and that was that, a few seconds and it automatically locked his account.

Using this software has caused heaps of controversy for Blizzard but meh, we all sign the EULA there, it may be worth looking at, it`s a pretty damn good piece of kit imho.........

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[jstrike]

I read your post with interest especially how hard it is for you guys to detect instances like this, can`t you guys use similar software that the big online gaming companies use?, the makers of WoW (Blizzard Entertainment) use one named Warden, which is uber efficient at locating illegal 3rd party software, these are mainly focused on the farming bots that the Chinese dudes use to farm gold and sell in breach of the EULA, an example of how good this software is, a former guildie whom was about to leave the game for good d/l a farming bot and was giving us a detailed analysis via guild chat, the last we heard from him was `Okay, turning it on now`, and that was that, a few seconds and it automatically locked his account.

Using this software has caused heaps of controversy for Blizzard but meh, we all sign the EULA there, it may be worth looking at, it`s a pretty damn good piece of kit imho.........

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Any software like that's gotta kind of know what it's looking for. I wrote my own software, so all my protections are in there. And yeah, it's booby-trapped up the wazoo as far as obvious stuff. It looks for things people might try to do, like, I've got multiplayer blackjack with 3 seats per player, and you can grab a stack of chips at one seat and move them to another stack and merge them. The client doesn't let you grab someone else's stack of chips, obviously, but if someone wrote their own client that let them do it on their end, that's one of a couple dozen triggers that'd kick them out and freeze their account instantly. Other triggers are silent and just record oddities. Like, if the stack they tried to grab didn't belong to anyone, but it just didn't exist. The software would give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're on a really slow connection, where they were still seeing an old bet that belonged to them, but it still keeps track of that stuff.

But then there's just the "how the heck did that happen" kind of situations. Like the guy who cleared multiple bonuses, playing 70,000+ hands of blackjack over a few weeks, at 10¢ a hand, with a 98.8% RTP. After watching for a long time, I figured out he was sometimes, rarely, not playing basic strategy. Was it a bot playing bonus strategy? He never split, and he never sat at more than one seat. The first few days he never doubled down, and then he started doubling correctly, every single time. But he swore up and down he wasn't using a bot. And if the bot impersonated the client perfectly, then I'd have no way to know for sure. The only evidence of anything was that sometimes he'd get disconnected and after a few minutes the system would eat his bet. That's not supposed to happen if he's the only guy at a table. He should have gotten his bets back. The only way it could happen is if the main login part of the system thought he was still connected, but the game table thought he wasn't. That's possible evidence that he was running two clients -- the real one, and a fake one on the side that stripped the table data out of the real one, scrambled the bets, and put them back in the stream. The fake got confused and crashed or went silent on the table, but the real one stayed connected. Again, that's not hard enough evidence to convict the guy, so I just paid him out.

 

[Seventh777]

Any software like that's gotta kind of know what it's looking for. I wrote my own software, so all my protections are in there. And yeah, it's booby-trapped up the wazoo as far as obvious stuff. It looks for things people might try to do, like, I've got multiplayer blackjack with 3 seats per player, and you can grab a stack of chips at one seat and move them to another stack and merge them. The client doesn't let you grab someone else's stack of chips, obviously, but if someone wrote their own client that let them do it on their end, that's one of a couple dozen triggers that'd kick them out and freeze their account instantly. Other triggers are silent and just record oddities. Like, if the stack they tried to grab didn't belong to anyone, but it just didn't exist. The software would give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they're on a really slow connection, where they were still seeing an old bet that belonged to them, but it still keeps track of that stuff.

But then there's just the "how the heck did that happen" kind of situations. Like the guy who cleared multiple bonuses, playing 70,000+ hands of blackjack over a few weeks, at 10¢ a hand, with a 98.8% RTP. After watching for a long time, I figured out he was sometimes, rarely, not playing basic strategy. Was it a bot playing bonus strategy? He never split, and he never sat at more than one seat. The first few days he never doubled down, and then he started doubling correctly, every single time. But he swore up and down he wasn't using a bot. And if the bot impersonated the client perfectly, then I'd have no way to know for sure. The only evidence of anything was that sometimes he'd get disconnected and after a few minutes the system would eat his bet. That's not supposed to happen if he's the only guy at a table. He should have gotten his bets back. The only way it could happen is if the main login part of the system thought he was still connected, but the game table thought he wasn't. That's possible evidence that he was running two clients -- the real one, and a fake one on the side that stripped the table data out of the real one, scrambled the bets, and put them back in the stream. The fake got confused and crashed or went silent on the table, but the real one stayed connected. Again, that's not hard enough evidence to convict the guy, so I just paid him out.

Wow, that`s a whole heap of crap to try keep an eye on, got me to thinking that some casinos may have security software looking for spikes of identically timed to the millisecond play, using scripted macros etc, and confuse this when players use auto play on slots, I get a lot of disconnections when playing the same slot for a long time in MGS casinos and in most cases this is when i`m using auto-play.

Just a thought ofc .

 

[vinylweatherman]

Wow, that`s a whole heap of crap to try keep an eye on, got me to thinking that some casinos may have security software looking for spikes of identically timed to the millisecond play, using scripted macros etc, and confuse this when players use auto play on slots, I get a lot of disconnections when playing the same slot for a long time in MGS casinos and in most cases this is when i`m using auto-play.

Just a thought ofc .

This wasn't about autoplay and bots (the usual suspects). This was way beyond this. In effect, the casino system was hacked so that illegal bets could be placed that made some more complex games operate way outside their own rules, giving the player an advantage.

Blackjack Switch was designed to ONLY accept equal bets, and the rules and paytables worked on this assumption. The hack enabled unequal bets to be placed, with one seat being a nominal 1 credit purely to provide swap cards that would enable the other to be played "properly", but with a considerable +EV. The same hack could turn many table poker games +EV by enabling unequal ante and play bets, thus reducing the house take from folded hands.

It throws a new light on the concept of "bot fraud", where the belief is that bots cannot be fraud, since they simply play the game as well as a human with perfect skill, but faster and for longer, which can only benefit the house. However, a bot that can also cause the server to process invalid bets is different. As a hack circumventing the published rules of the game, it would be fraud. It would be like claiming it was OK to insert a screwdriver through a gap in a fruit machine cabinet and empty out all the coins because an implementation oversight in cabinet design allowed it, and there was no published rule probibiting the use of screwdrivers as an aid to play.
BTW - I didn't make this up, this was an actual scam that was used on some cabinet designs until an additional piece of metal was added to block passage of an instrument like a screwdriver to the payout solenoid. The scam even worked on some machines with hoppers.

The accepted rule for a legit emptier on the fruities is to play the game using the buttons as provided, which is the same as playing a casino using the client provided. Using "third party buttons" like screwdrivers, refill keys, and spark generators on fruities is likely to get you into trouble, possibly criminal. The best is that other savvy players will notice, and know that you are a hard line "pro", and to avoid filling the machines up for you.

I never used such methods, although I saw them in use. It told me which machines to avoid. In all the years of playing, I have never owned a refill key.

Sites are now so aware of these scams that even owning a "device" could get you thrown out, even "looking like a pro" is enough to get you kicked out of a few places.

 

[thelawnet]

Hello everyone,

First of all I would like to apology for the delay in response: yesterday I was going to bed when I saw this thread.

Also I would like to thank all forum members for their input in this thread.

The case is: the OP registered at Trada Casino and made two deposits (20 and 50 EUR). The first deposit was lost, then the OP made another deposit and managed to build the bankroll to €1381, mostly playing Blackjack Switch. After he submitted a withdrawal, his bets history was analysed, and it was found that he was was making bets which were impossible in casino client. For example, there are many bets where bet amounts are different for boxes #1 and #2 (as you know, in Blackjack Switch you have to make equal bets on two boxes).

Below is an example from the OP's bet history:

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As you can see, two different bets were made on boxes #1 and #2, when they should have been equal. It gives players an advantage over the casino, because when they switch the cards - the better hand could be built for the bigger bet.

This makes sense, although the above is a poor illustration, since the player doesn't switch.

Let's say, for clarity, you had a bet of $999.99 on one spot, and $0.01 on the other. The $0.01 spot is clearly worthless, so basically what you end up with is no longer a game of balance, but a game where you effectively have the FREE choice to switch your second card out for another face-up card. The advantage is huge.

E.g.,

consider dealer 8 vs.

9,8 = 17, bet $500
t,t = 20, bet $500

We expect the 17 to lose (given a dealer 10, the most likely option), and the 20 to win (likewise).

If you switch, you end up with 19 and 18, the 18 is most likely to push and the 19 to win.

If the dealer had a 9, however, the switched 18 is probably a loser, and we DON'T switch in this case - we abandon our hand of 17 and stick with the good 20.

If however, your bets look like this:

Up card 8
9,8 = 17, bet $999.99
t,t = 20, bet $0.01

Then clearly you want to improve your 17 to a 19, you couldn't care less about the 1 cent hand, that's just there to provide good cards for the 17.

17 is a terrible hand in blackjack, whereas 19 is a very good one.

This isn't a question of circumventing bet limits so much as fundamentally changing the game being played. This changes the game from a complex game of balancing two hands with equal bets to a simple 'build the best 2-card hand using 3 cards'.