Lucky247.com withdrawal has been confiscated (7000 euros)

[udobinder]

Just to clarify that I made maximum bets of 22.50 per spin, while my deposit was 260 and bonus applied was 250. So I actually never bet more than 10% of the deposit or bonus per spin.

 

[hedgehok]

Sorry guys, that's Bryan's call to make. He is and always has been in charge of the Accred section, I think many of you know this. I'll Report your post so he knows of the issue here but you'll have to wait for him to make the call.

As to the player issues being discussed here I think the primary issue is not the grinding but the violations re Max Bet, no? That's a whole other kettle of fish.

Thank you, I think the main problem is still the vague formulation about the "grinding" or "two-tier" betting as it is called sometimes. IMHO this has to be fixed for meeting accreditation standards.

Regarding this please have a look at the MM-forum: https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/67833?t=67833

 

[udobinder]

I have now submitted PAB !

 

[Batman]

Hope your PAB will be successful. Good luck!

 

[lammersef]

good luck!

 

[maxd]

I have now submitted PAB !

PAB received and in progress. Pls ensure that you have read, understand and respect the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. We consider the FAQ to be required reading for all PABers.

 

[blackjak]

I remember playing here.
Made a small win with the bonus, and it was one of the slowest cash-outs ever. Had to submit documents twice after they were apparently not received the first time. Yet my first email was right there in my sent folder to the correct address.

Got it eventually, but you get the impression they just want you to give up and reverse the withdrawal.
Uninstalled.

 

[The Dude]

I have now submitted PAB !

And it's been tossed to the curb. Turns out that player fraud/multi-accounts are involved. It just never ends.

 

[Harry_BKK]

And it's been tossed to the curb. Turns out that player fraud/multi-accounts are involved. It just never ends.

geez...some people have nothing else to do then wasting forum space and time, knowing very well that the truth will come out at some point and we all felt for him and convinced him to PAB. But maybe good so as it clarified the situation once and for all

 

[The Dude]

I should add that we're looking at these terms and will be discussing these bonus terms with the casino. As a number of you have pointed out, they are a bit vague and ought to be more in line with the other accred casinos.

 

[ugaboga]

I should add that we're looking at these terms and will be discussing these bonus terms with the casino. As a number of you have pointed out, they are a bit vague and ought to be more in line with the other accred casinos.

Great news

 

[Batman]

I should add that we're looking at these terms and will be discussing these bonus terms with the casino. As a number of you have pointed out, they are a bit vague and ought to be more in line with the other accred casinos.

That would be indeed great...



There's still:

- Melanie: We have had a look at your account.Before any withdrawals are processed, Your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 20% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. For the purposes of this rule, a bet is defined as one roulette spin or one dealer's dealt hand in any table game, or one deal in any Video or Power Poker game (this includes Multi-Hand/Play games). Any double or gamble shall be considered a new bet. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred; the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings

-Melanie: Irregular gameplay.Movement from high to low wagers after large win prior to meeting wagering requirements.
Players stake from 22.5 (txn 294) after large win(5510) to 2.5(txn 303 - ) and consistent low (below 10) wagers until wagering met

No mention of being a fraud / multi-accounts

Dear Udo,


Acc: ********

First off, we’d like to say thanks very much for playing here at Lucky247! It’s great to see you’re enjoying our awesome game selection. However, did you know that you may have unintentionally transgressed one of our Ts&Cs?

We’re specifically talking about the general terms and conditions, point 19.9,please see extract below:

Before any withdrawals are processed, Your play will be reviewed for any irregular playing patterns. In the interests of fair gaming, equal, zero or low margin bets or hedge betting, shall all be considered irregular gaming for bonus play-through requirement purposes. Other examples of irregular game play include but are not limited to, placing single bets equal to or in excess of 20% or more of the value of the bonus credited to their account until such time as the wagering requirements for that bonus have been met. For the purposes of this rule, a bet is defined as one roulette spin or one dealer's dealt hand in any table game, or one deal in any Video or Power Poker game (this includes Multi-Hand/Play games). Any double or gamble shall be considered a new bet. Should the Casino deem that irregular game play has occurred; the Casino reserves the right to withhold any withdrawals and/or confiscate all winnings.
Any bonus and winnings will be forfeited if a player has an active bonus and moves after winning from low weighted games like table games, to high weighted games like slots (or first bets high and then low with a stake not in proportion to the balance) for the sole purpose of completing wagering requirements. This will be judged at the sole discretion of the casino after reviewing the gameplay.
Furthermore this includes but is not limited to Moving from a low weighted game to a high weighted game after large wins for the purpose of clearing wagering requirements.

In your case, you moved from high wagers to low wagers after a large to clear wagering requirements.

Due to the above, your withdrawal has been confiscated and your deposit and bonus returned to your gaming account. This will have been 260 cash credits and 250 bonus credits for you to try again.

We trust this email finds you well.

Warm regards,
Lucky247 Casino Support

Again, no mention of the multi-accounts / fraud ...

Plus, there was no word / activity from the rep on this topic whatsoever ...

Why would they send e-mails referring at those terms, instead of the other ones, referring at the multi-accounts?

It's AT LEAST unprofessional
Not to say shady!

 

[winbig]

So, it's wrong to play smart?

Why would one not drop their bet after a large win in order to clear WR? Any normal person would do that...I know I would. Of course the casino wants you to keep betting big, because that 3%+ slots HA takes a bigger chunk out of each bet you make than if you lowered your bet, and of course you'd lose more after each spin.

It's sort of like counting cards in a B&M casino. Sure, it's not illegal (as long as you do it in your head,) but it's frowned upon, and if caught, you'll more than likely be escorted out - but, with your winnings. Bottom line: There's no reason or just cause to confiscate winnings.

 

[maxd]

So, it's wrong to play smart?

According to these types of Terms, yes. The argument we hear is that if you play "smart" -- basically anything that minimizes your risk while you work through your WR -- then you are not playing "recreationally" and are thereby "abusing" the bonus. Load of rubbish, of course, but that's the war of words that's being fought here.

 

[winbig]

According to these types of Terms, yes. The argument we hear is that if you play "smart" -- basically anything that minimizes your risk while you work through your WR -- then you are not playing "recreationally" and are thereby "abusing" the bonus. Load of rubbish, of course, but that's the war of words that's being fought here.

Agreed I, among the others, can't believe that an accredited casino can get away with this simply because it's concise and to the point on their T&C pages...I'm glad Bryan is looking into it as we speak...

As players, I seriously doubt anyone would play there with a bonus, with those terms in place. I guess they just want their customers to play blindfolded, basically.

Just curious, where has the casino's CM rep been throughout this whole ordeal?

 

[maxd]

... where has the casino's CM rep been throughout this whole ordeal?

More or less on the job. The delays here are largely my fault: moving + conferences + workload = slow turn-around.

 

[Batman]

The player did drastically decrease the bet amount...
He started grinding with 10% of his winning bet... that is indeed a lot!
It's not Advantage Play, anyone would do the same, if not changing the bet size, changing the high variance slot that paid into a low variance slot, to grind it...

But still, why would you decline a withdrawal for one reason, and not stand by it (change the reason for voiding when the sh*t hits the fan)?

 

[maxd]

But still, why would you decline a withdrawal for one reason, and not stand by it (change the reason for voiding when the sh*t hits the fan)?

TBH the pattern with many casinos seems to be to withhold accusations of fraud until it's absolutely necessary to do so. I'm not saying that was done here but it is a fairly common pattern.

I think the reasoning is that as soon as they say "fraud" the perps can go back and start upping their game. In practice I personally doubt that it has much net effect -- up what part of the game? without some details it's just a shot in the dark -- but I'm not a Risk and Fraud professional and they would know best.

 

[Batman]

Most probably the player had an older account, which they locked so he can use the newer one...
Probably he didn't even made a deposit on the older account...

It's hard to say without seeing the evidence, or hearing anything from the Casino Rep...
But I truly doubt the OP was a genuine fraudster...

Anyways, with or without this, what they did is really bad, that term should disappear,
And the proper thing would be the pay the OP, if not in full, at least a part and donate the rest...

 

[maxd]

But I truly doubt the OP was a genuine fraudster...

No, it's not a simple "old account" issue. As you say though, you haven't seen the evidence. We have and our conclusion is based on that. I highly recommend you consider taking a similar approach.

 

[Batman]

No, it's not a simple "old account" issue. As you say though, you haven't seen the evidence. We have and our conclusion is based on that. I highly recommend you consider taking a similar approach.

I understand...
Again that was a pure assumption based on a guess, as I am unaware of the procedure you guys are undertaking when checking with the casinos...

 

[maxd]

In my experience with complaints -- and by that I mean the parties on both sides of the issue -- the only good assumption is the one you don't make. Proof keeps everything friendly.

 

[winbig]

I think we all know what "assume" means

 

[hedgehok]

IMHO as long as the casino meets the accreditation standards and does clearly underline what they consider "advantage play" or "bonus abuse" I am fine with that. What I just can not stand is some vague formulation and confiscation. This is why I questioned their formulation because they don't say how much bet-reduction is tolerable.

 

[winbig]

IMHO as long as the casino meets the accreditation standards and does clearly underline what they consider "advantage play" or "bonus abuse" I am fine with that. What I just can not stand is some vague formulation and confiscation. This is why I questioned their formulation because they don't say how much bet-reduction is tolerable.

Yep, this would allow them to make stuff up "on the go," and allow one player to get away with it while letting another slide. One example that I could think of is allowing a whale to fly under the radar by doing such things, while denying an occasional small-time depositer the same option...and still be completely within their rights as far as the T&C are concerned..

 

[Przecinek]

Lol first Lucky247 says it's irregular play but OP is welcome to try again. Then, when community crushes their T&C as typical spirit of the bonus BS - it suddenly turns into multiaccounting. OP is no longer welcome to try again Yeah I totally belive them...

Lucky247 rep totally MIA.

Just to clarify how your case ended: the casino acknowledged they were -- and still are -- treating WR grinding as "irregular play" and stated they have no plans to change that. They've implemented the UK licensee policies and eCOGRA is their ADR. That effectively killed any further discussion on this from our end because they simply said the player should take the issue to eCOGRA.

Shouldn't that put Lucky247 in "No can do" list rather than "Accredited" This is more of a question to Bryan since he is in charge of accrediation section. I am also wondering have Lucky247 already changed their terms in order to avoid vague and spirit-o-b terms as it was discussed in this topic? The fact that there's another poster here that had exactly the same problem shows to me that behind the scenes Lucky247 are handing out tons of "f-you clauses" left and right. We just don't know about them.

Oh and that 6x deposit limit on your winnings. How graceful.

 

[maxd]

Shouldn't that put Lucky247 in "No can do" list rather than "Accredited" .. This is more of a question to Bryan since he is in charge of accrediation section.

Indeed, it is a question best answered by him. FWIW there was some discussion of phasing the "No Can Do" section out, or seriously whittling it down, so that might be part of the issue here.

In any case Bryan is away this week so chances are this will have to wait a bit before he gets a chance to comment.