Losing my faith in the industry

mattsgame

Meister Member
webmeister
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Sep 17, 2009
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Out Of Town
Lately I am becoming more and more frustrated with this Industry, we are seeing affiliates been treated poorly but we are also seeing more and more casinos add terms in which are very un player friendly. Those casino I used to have faith in are seemingly getting greedier and turning against their partners and their own bread and butter, the players.

Most of you need to check out the casinos you regularly play at to see what I am talking about, some terms are just mind boggling and me personally find them unfair. Maybe this is my perception and I am getting frustrated for nothing. These terms may have always been there but because I am getting more and more cautious I am now noticing them.

I won't even get started in the fact that casino are delaying payments longer and longer and not just for our U.S partners.

Yes a lot of the terms pertain to bonuses and of course players do not have to take them, but casinos need them for player retention and to get players through the door, they will be turned off in an instant if some of these terms are used against them.

As I said on another forum, I am getting to the point were I cannot trust anyone and if this is the case I may as well give up the game.

My computer used to be full of casinos that I would frequent and now its like a waste land with only a handful I play at, this also goes for my own affiliate sites the casino I trust to promote is becoming very thin.

Am I the only one who gets too worked up over this? maybe I need to take a break.

Sorry guys, Rant is now over.
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
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Apr 27, 2009
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the land of snow and maple syrup
Lol, no I don't get it.
In any business there's crooks and the cream of the crop.
You can go for McDonald's or 5 star fine dining.
You find the best mechanic, or screwed by the worst.
It's in any industry.
Why be jaded? You know the good ones..32Red, RedBet etc...stick with them, and screw the bad ones....if you know the hot dog vendor at the corner sells beautiful dogs, why try the dude down the road when he might be selling rat..and if you do try him, and ya get garbage, well, now ya now, and ya can go back to the solid guy
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
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Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
I second the thread title. Many casinos/groups including previously reliable MG casinos are pulling stunts through 'ambiguous' terms to deny winnings. Its also likely they will try to cut costs and what better to start off by choking the affiliates. The industry is getting nowhere. Hopefully solid groups like 32RED and 3 Dice can continue to flourish though to do this they need a strong base of players. I do hope the lesser casinos fall apart so that the dwindling base of players can patronize the better casinos. As long as they do not suffer financially they can still remain in our good books.
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
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Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Lately I am becoming more and more frustrated with this Industry, we are seeing affiliates been treated poorly but we are also seeing more and more casinos add terms in which are very un player friendly. Those casino I used to have faith in are seemingly getting greedier and turning against their partners and their own bread and butter, the players.

This is a very normal reaction and feeling, which all webmasters in particular go through. Indeed when I first became an affiliate we had the Fortune Lounge / Referback issue to contend with, then in 2006 the UIGEA. When Bryan started out, it was even worse and probably was akin for player and webmaster alike to be sailing off the coast of Somalia.

The key is to not be all consumed by the bad in the industry, otherwise you will burn out. Try and achieve a balance and also focus on the positives. Write about what is good in the industry, add good content to your sites which will be of use to your visitors. When you are focusing on the bad, such as what is happening with the likes of Wagershare, Roxy Affiliates, Brightshare et al and also the abundance of hijacked domains and spam in the serps. Use it to warn players and fellow webmasters and in turn gain organic traffic as a result.

I am currently extremely angry at what is happening in the affiliate side of the business, but on the flip side, I am using this to channel my energies into doing something positive.

What you are feeling now will pass, but is something we all go through.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I once worked in the Financial sector and then in the music industry and there are parallels to this industry in both. Gambling, like finance is a money industry. There is not really a product per se - it's all just a way of making money change hands and human nature, most people, even many of us if you think about it, is to try and make as much money as we can. It's how we're conditioned in this day and age.

The music industry, like the gambling industry is about "entertainment". Entertainment dosn't have regulation like finance does so consequently you are more open to the ideas and ethics of individuals. It's effectively you dealing with someone else who you haven't met.

So IMO one just needs to remember that whether you are an affiliate or a player, you don't have anyone else prepared to accept some responsibility for situations you find yourself in like you might with the FSA for example. You are on your own and should bear in mind that when someone is faced with the prospect of making money, a lot of people don't even consider the ethics. Look at the US Government... back in 2006 it was all about "family values" and stuff. One recession later, it's a totally different story. How I see it is, that's just how the world works.

As regards players, that's the whole point of Casinomeister's Accredited section. There's never a 100% guarantee but if one of those screws up, they screw up their reputation wiith the players that use the site.

By the way, as an affiliate, the best way to deal with this I've found is to go meet the operators, talk to them and build a relationship. It is a double-whammy because talking to the people face-to-face is a good way to guage how an operation thinks, works and regards both players and affiliates in general plus at that stage, you can discuss bespoke terms in writing that affect you directly. The affiliate/operator relationship needs to be mutually beneficial to be successful and if both parties see value, you'll find most programs are happy to work that out for you.

As a business, my philosophy is that you'll do better by differentiating yourself and being individual. If you work in a group, you'll live and die by the reputation of everyone and anyone in that group. It can work well if it's organised effectively and everyone follows the guidelines but if not, you have to expect to get treated the same as the worst member of the group. And I am not refering just to gambling, that's anywhere in business and in life.
 

Seaman63

Full Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Location
wild south
Am I the only one who gets too worked up over this? maybe I need to take a break.

Nope, you are not alone. For exactly the same reasons I have shut down my site, left affiliate biz and stopped to work for a forum as moderator. I spent about 10 years with all this and continuously it became more and more a bad biz. Am feeling quite better now after leaving this all behind me, even if I miss the extra $$$s from it.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
As a player.... not going into detail (still having my java) but most of you will know what I'm referring to...

I've got a really sour taste in my mouth after...

Ultimate Bet

Quicktender

Purple Lounge

Betfair

And you poor guys who should have 'regulation' seem to only have pencil pushing puppets dressed up as 'regulators'.

There's more, but like I said... my brain is still foggy and I hate dredging up this stuff that gets me all riled up so early.
 

MisterBJ

Account suspended until further notice - please co
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Location
Atlanta
Expect it to get much worse. The global picture just isn't good. Threats of World War, War in Syria, Yen Crashing, USD being dropped all across the world. Euro is unstable, unemployment on the rise, riots and tense inside the EU. North Korea and South Korea, Russia and China aiding Syria and Iran. Taxes being raised all across the boards.

Some of OLD online gambling Vets are just burned out now from years of playing. These casinos just isn't getting the revenue like past times. And its not looking any better anytime soon.

End of Days my friends, End of Days.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
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Pretty pessimistic view, but I see your point.

I agree the online gaming golden years are over. Some casinos will survive without silly restrictive terms like '$5k max cashout' etc. because of previously making the effort to stand out, like 32red and thus gaining a sizeable player base. Others are big outside the online casino sector, like Ladbrokes/PP/Boyles/SkyVegas etc. The supply of revenue is clearly on the wane and it's past being cut-throat. Players are being victim of more bad terms and restrictive practices, affiliates are having their nuts squeezed even when not having negative retrospective changes to their terms.
The industry has really been in its prime in the last decade - it has attracted crooks, shysters and tax-evaders and all kinds of opportunists. As time goes, it's still evolving, as we see by the regulatory amendments that will shortly be taking place in the UK/E-USSR. Their revenue will be taxed at source. The casinos don't make much out of people like my who deposit an average of 50-100 a week, and w/d when in profit, like Chopley and other low-rollers. They make it from high-rollers and addicts. The majority of addicts will already have spent their load, exhausted their credit and crashed and burned by now. Sure, new ones will come along but the rush of them has already happened. The saturation advertising and its effects will have peaked now. The pool of players' cash is finite and the recession is biting.
There is also the issue of games. Software providers make the efforts, but there's only so many variations on a theme and I know I'm getting bored with it all now, and I'm sure some of you will be.
There is also the issue of depositing with overdrafts and credit cards whether to Webwallets or directly. VWM mentioned it could be banned in the UK or E-USSR, and I believe it will. Sooner or later you're going to get an addict who bankrupts themselves, and will refuse to pay the debt, or dispute it on the grounds of 'not being responsible lending'. All it needs is one person to do this, and get the decision from a County Court judge in their favour or the Ombudsman, and it will set a precedent. You will wake up one morning and find your credit card (or debit card IF using an agreed overdraft) bounces when you try to deposit to a gaming site or Webwallet. It will be that quick. As a large amount of casino revenue (whether they admit it or not or whether we like it or not) is either funded by debt or actioned by credit card deposits it will hammer the industry.
I used to be drawn to my PC having set aside time for a good session. I have had a week off and only once have I bothered to play despite having time. I've sat down, opened the laptop, and unlike before recently I've been saying more and more: 'nah, can't be bothered tonight'. :(
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
Pretty pessimistic view, but I see your point.

I agree the online gaming golden years are over. Some casinos will survive without silly restrictive terms like '$5k max cashout' etc. because of previously making the effort to stand out, like 32red and thus gaining a sizeable player base. Others are big outside the online casino sector, like Ladbrokes/PP/Boyles/SkyVegas etc. The supply of revenue is clearly on the wane and it's past being cut-throat. Players are being victim of more bad terms and restrictive practices, affiliates are having their nuts squeezed even when not having negative retrospective changes to their terms.
The industry has really been in its prime in the last decade - it has attracted crooks, shysters and tax-evaders and all kinds of opportunists. As time goes, it's still evolving, as we see by the regulatory amendments that will shortly be taking place in the UK/E-USSR. Their revenue will be taxed at source. The casinos don't make much out of people like my who deposit an average of 50-100 a week, and w/d when in profit, like Chopley and other low-rollers. They make it from high-rollers and addicts. The majority of addicts will already have spent their load, exhausted their credit and crashed and burned by now. Sure, new ones will come along but the rush of them has already happened. The saturation advertising and its effects will have peaked now. The pool of players' cash is finite and the recession is biting.
There is also the issue of games. Software providers make the efforts, but there's only so many variations on a theme and I know I'm getting bored with it all now, and I'm sure some of you will be.
There is also the issue of depositing with overdrafts and credit cards whether to Webwallets or directly. VWM mentioned it could be banned in the UK or E-USSR, and I believe it will. Sooner or later you're going to get an addict who bankrupts themselves, and will refuse to pay the debt, or dispute it on the grounds of 'not being responsible lending'. All it needs is one person to do this, and get the decision from a County Court judge in their favour or the Ombudsman, and it will set a precedent. You will wake up one morning and find your credit card (or debit card IF using an agreed overdraft) bounces when you try to deposit to a gaming site or Webwallet. It will be that quick. As a large amount of casino revenue (whether they admit it or not or whether we like it or not) is either funded by debt or actioned by credit card deposits it will hammer the industry.
I used to be drawn to my PC having set aside time for a good session. I have had a week off and only once have I bothered to play despite having time. I've sat down, opened the laptop, and unlike before recently I've been saying more and more: 'nah, can't be bothered tonight'. :(

We could read the same pessimistic stuff at the end of 2006 after UIGEA, or during financial crisis 2008-2009. The industry is still alive. Adapting constantly but surely not dying.
 

nisosbar

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Right here
People will always gamble, but it is a human activity which is subject to the same laws of supply/demand as any other. Also, as economies wane, so does gambling business.

For Americans, there really isn't too much new right now going on with online casinos. So it's hard to get excited.
 

bigjohn

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Joined
Dec 21, 2012
Location
Northeast Coastal USA
People will always gamble, but it is a human activity which is subject to the same laws of supply/demand as any other. Also, as economies wane, so does gambling business.

For Americans, there really isn't too much new right now going on with online casinos. So it's hard to get excited.

For Americans we are on the verge of something we have never had before, 100% legal, regulated, on-line gaming.

For Nevada it has started already. New Jersey expects to be available and functioning by November of this year.

Will this possibly spell the beginning of the end for RTG or will it prompt them to make huge fundamental changes to their games? So many of them seem to be set up primarily to attract US customers. It will almost certainly mean a big change to affiliates who market to the US and should help weed out many rogue casinos who are capitalizing on the lack of regulation here in the States.

The way I read the New Jersey regulation we will not see Microgaming or NetEnt games but we should get IGT, Bally, Aristocrat, WMS or any other games which exist inside our B&M casinos.

Hopefully, eventually the US will begin to accept international casino businesses that are willing to conform to our evolving regulations such as recording and reporting large wins for taxation purposes. Perhaps that will provide new avenues for affiliates and standardize some regulations worldwide. I hope it will go fairly quick once the ball gets rolling.

I agree it is a rather optimistic view but that's how I prefer to view it.
 

Mousey

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Location
Up$hitCreek
I don't doubt that online casinos will continue to flourish. What worries me is the lack of 'true' regulation and oversight.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I monitor business activity in the industry closely, and imo published company results are in general showing improvement despite the lingering recession. So my sense is that the online gambling industry is a long way from dead or even dying, and that there is a growing official appreciation of its relevance.

Add to that the improving picture in the USA, the manner in which regulators in Europe are developing, and the pace of technological development, and I tend more toward the optimistic than the opposite.

That said, the antics of sometimes well established companies and their regulators in the treatment of both players and affiliates on occasion makes me frustrated and angry - especially when there is no clear resolution or some sign of active involvement and sanction by a regulator. The Betfred-Spielo-Gibraltar issue is a good example of the sort of thing that really offends me and frustrates me, and Purple Lounge is another recent mess that I find both immoral and shocking. Operators who behave as Media Corp plc did in the Purple Lounge debacle really need to be constantly flagged so that future and perhaps newbie players are not again placed at risk.

However, as several other posters in this thread have already noted, this industry is not unique in having bad, good and a fairly substantial wodge of the in-between. The trick is to distinguish between the good, the bad and the average, and players and affiliates can both assist in that process by conscientiously researching, publicising their experiences - especially the baddies, and advising and guiding the less experienced rather than castigating them for poor choices.

That's why forums like this are so important as places where players can get (mostly) genuine views and information, assistance with problems...and help hold rogues to account.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I monitor business activity in the industry closely, and imo published company results are in general showing improvement despite the lingering recession. So my sense is that the online gambling industry is a long way from dead or even dying, and that there is a growing official appreciation of its relevance..

I agree, in that there is a buzz around the conferences that suggests things are definately heading the right way. However I do have one concern nagging away at me: social.

A lot of the industry is starting to put emphasis on social platforms as an "acquisition tool" but this is a bit of a game changer IMO. Until now, in an online context, most companies have attracted new customers from people who want to gamble and have gone looking for it, mostly via search engines and gambling-centric websites. By contrast, free apps and adverts on social platforms are exposing far more people who may not have considered forms of gambling like slots and bingo.

I recently ran into an old friend that had never gambled except on the Grand National, started playing Bingo through Facebook, graduated to real money and then to slots. The conversation left me questioning the impact that social was having if I'm honest and while I am still not really 100% decided on the right/wrong direction, it has helped persuade me not to go that route myself.
 

243 lines=daft

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In some ways the social aspect may finally lead to online casino software being forced to reveal its workings.

It always seemed to me that the main reason that online casinos have always been able to present an effective black box product where they were allowed to take money with no effective regulation or transparency was that the custom base were gamblers.

Maybe if the perception changes such that the authorities view these products as being used by everyone rather than a 'gambling underclass' there will be more of an interest in protecting the interests of the players, forcing more transparency on an industry that is clearly never going to provide it voluntarily.
 

dunover

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In some ways the social aspect may finally lead to online casino software being forced to reveal its workings.

It always seemed to me that the main reason that online casinos have always been able to present an effective black box product where they were allowed to take money with no effective regulation or transparency was that the custom base were gamblers.

Maybe if the perception changes such that the authorities view these products as being used by everyone rather than a 'gambling underclass' there will be more of an interest in protecting the interests of the players, forcing more transparency on an industry that is clearly never going to provide it voluntarily.

At the end of the day, if there's money involved, the governments soon become involved. When the governments become involved, you get accountability and regulation, plus of course taxation. Think back to the 1960's and 1970's when the credit industry was in its infancy. You could get unsolicited goods in the post with an invoice, which you had to return or buy. More recently, the distance selling regulations came in to cover things like eBay and website sales. You now have 7 days to cancel deals and if something is unsatisfactory the seller must refund postage costs (although this message still hasn't got through to many eBay traders.) The government (via any regulators they appoint) are always reactionary rather than proactive. This period is when the golden goose lays the eggs for the operators so to speak. I think the USA might have gotten it right by default; IF online gaming is allowed to all US citizens, then the government is already aware of the need to tax winners, how it can be done, testing of softwares, protection of players and ways gambling can be funded. They have the benefit of 15 years of experience from elsewhere so instead of evolving a system fraught with complications, they can get it right first time.

Going back to my example of the credit industry, the goings-on culminated in the 1979 Sale Of Goods Act which fully protected consumers in all ways possible. You can buy something for 5,000 pounds, and if you pay JUST ONE POUND of that on a credit card, the whole purchase comes under refundable protection of the cards insurance, i.e. if the goods are bad or don't appear. This legislation was reactionary but very comprehensive and good for the consumers.

We will soon have this in place either domestically or via the E-USSR (if we're still in the bloody pit) as regards online gaming.

I predict:

1. Stakes made from residents from any one country like the UK will be logged, and profits taxed singularly - no surprise because we already know this is in the pipeline.
2. We will have a form of 'gambling ombudsman' to complain to in events of disputes.
3. We will not be allowed to send stakes to non-UK sites unless registered and taxed here and who will be signed up to number 2 above.
4. Stakes taken from any one country will be lodged in a designated account for that one country to protect players. (re. PL fiasco)
5. Gambling online with credit cards and transactions arising from overdrawn current account debits will be abolished. Yes, I know people could get cash out on credit cards and buy UKash vouchers or the like, but it would stop impulse debt-funded playing.
6. Banks will have a list of government approved gaming sites they can fund, and only those, to prevent unregulated play.
7. Advertising will be controlled more.
8. A stringent punishment regime for operators will be put in place, huge fines (like levied by the FSA for errant banks etc.) for untested/bad software, long payment offences on a repeated basis etc.

;);)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Lol, no I don't get it.
In any business there's crooks and the cream of the crop.
You can go for McDonald's or 5 star fine dining.
You find the best mechanic, or screwed by the worst.
It's in any industry.
Why be jaded? You know the good ones..32Red, RedBet etc...stick with them, and screw the bad ones....if you know the hot dog vendor at the corner sells beautiful dogs, why try the dude down the road when he might be selling rat..and if you do try him, and ya get garbage, well, now ya now, and ya can go back to the solid guy

The difference here is that the good turn bad overnight, and in much larger numbers than one would see in traditional commerce. You would not go to the 5 star restaurant one day, and then the next find the same place selling burger and fries for the same 5 star prices. This CAN happen when playing online, with players being able to keep all their winnings from Lucky Nugget on Jan 31st 2013, but find they can only keep a max of 6x their deposit the very next day.
 

bet4fun

Dormant account
webmeister
Joined
Mar 5, 2008
Location
Mexico
For me one of the hardest jobs both as an affiliate and a player, is consitently keeping on top and correctly deciphering the terms and conditions. And yes these things do happen overnight sometimes without any notice or until you have actually won or earned some money only to be paid late or not at all.
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Lately I am becoming more and more frustrated with this Industry, we are seeing affiliates been treated poorly but we are also seeing more and more casinos add terms in which are very un player friendly. Those casino I used to have faith in are seemingly getting greedier and turning against their partners and their own bread and butter, the players.

Most of you need to check out the casinos you regularly play at to see what I am talking about, some terms are just mind boggling and me personally find them unfair. Maybe this is my perception and I am getting frustrated for nothing. These terms may have always been there but because I am getting more and more cautious I am now noticing them.

I won't even get started in the fact that casino are delaying payments longer and longer and not just for our U.S partners.

Yes a lot of the terms pertain to bonuses and of course players do not have to take them, but casinos need them for player retention and to get players through the door, they will be turned off in an instant if some of these terms are used against them.

As I said on another forum, I am getting to the point were I cannot trust anyone and if this is the case I may as well give up the game.

My computer used to be full of casinos that I would frequent and now its like a waste land with only a handful I play at, this also goes for my own affiliate sites the casino I trust to promote is becoming very thin.

Am I the only one who gets too worked up over this? maybe I need to take a break.

Sorry guys, Rant is now over.
Hi Matt. I feel your pain. I think that most of us feel this way now and then. But as an observer and participant for the past fifteen years, I can honestly say it's been a tough go for a lot of people in recent times.

I don't lose faith, but I do get discouraged at times - and in more cases than not - truly disappointed. I think Jetset nailed a few of these on the head - Purple Lounge, the GRA, Betfair, bwin,...and then of course the bombastic boneheaded politicians, rubber stamp regulators, DDoS pimps, genuine crooks...I could just keep on going. But with every crap episode, the are good ones to counter it.

There are some great people in this industry - many of whom either visit this site regularly or are members of this forum, and some fantastic companies as well. You can insulate yourself from the bad by focusing on the good - and try not to take some things too seriously. It's easy to get bogged down in some complaint about bonuses that gets you all wrapped up. Once you step away from it and get involved with another project like getting some charity on its feet, you'll see that some things aren't so seriously bad after all.
 
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