Kaboo.com - What?!

[curremon]

AFAIK the UKGC _currently_ provides the player the option, SE for self-protection reasons (addiction) and SE for "other" reasons. So IMO the casino is not wrong here, the player needs to make it clear what the reasons for SE are. They've assumed that if it's not explicitly stated by the player that it's for self-protection then they'll assume it isn't. Not an unreasonable call, IMO.

I should say that the UKGC has detailed proposals for restructuring the whole SE system, so that SE would be used exclusively for "self-protection" and the new system -- tentatively called "gambling management" I believe -- would be used for non-addiction purposes. As ever it's a work-in-progress. Since casinos are dealing with real SE issues _now_ they have to make a call.

But earlier in this thread Erik said something totally different...

 

[maxd]

But earlier in this thread Erik said something totally different...

Like I've said many times now, we're all figuring this out as we go along. Provide a link to the post(s) of interest and we'll try to reconcile the differences.

 

[Jasminebed]

I've joined a site that required receipt of snail mail and a code to make a second deposit (Bet365). Can't remember who, but had one freeze my account partway through my deposit and bonus for ID check. I do remember that another member had this happen during a bonus round.

I've had casinos that require ID within 7 days.

Ones that offer an incentive to verify within 3 days.

Many true problem gamblers NEVER cash out. They are not done until they bust. A friend says her mom has been gambling online for at least 5 years, (a reputable if not accredited group), and has had $1000 plus balances many times and never cashed out once. At least not without reversing it.

Kaboo (and sister sites Thrills and Super Lenny) seem to be taking this issue more seriously than some.

Why not lead the way and review account details within a few days? And give your input to the UKGC, have the other casinos play fair too.

I also think there is a need industry wide to be clearer just what self-exclusion means. Taking a break implies something entirely different to me. I actually clicked on a take a break link at a casino, (OLG) thinking a few hours to do my housework might be good! I did not carry through.

The only time I officially "took a break" was in the spring one year when I was doing well, but spending too much time when there was yard and garden work to attend to, it's a short window here in Canada.

And I really have no idea how such facilities are implemented for non UK players.

Multi game platforms play under more than one jurisdiction for me (usually malta and alderly at sites I frequent).

 

[curremon]

Hi

We have mentioned this in another thread, but I will post it here aswell.

We currently do not have a function to automatically stop a player signing up to our site if he is SE on a sister site. That is why we are stating it in the TC.

As i mentioned in the other thread the motivation behind that we cannot allow play when you are SE from any site under the same license is to protect the player who have choose he needs help. And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE.

Once we discover a player that is SE on any of the sister site of the casino he is playing at we reset the account so it will be like he never played, regardless if he won or lost. This way a player will never be worse of by the fact he managed to play. Which is the point of the SE rules set up.

Regarding the tech fix to auto block any player trying to signup that is SE on a sister site is not as easy as people make it out to be, and it is something we are working to have. It will save us and the players a lot of time and grievances to "nip it at the but" so to speak instead of having situations like this to arise.

We are of-course truly sorry for inconvenience of the OP but also want to note that he did SE and if he would have lost his deposits we would have refunded them as well, all of them from the SE date, not just the last one.

Please post here or PM me if you have any further questions

Regards
Erik

This one.

 

[Tirilej]

This one.

According to all casinos Self Exclusion mean that you have a gambling problem and nothing else.

Maybe we see it different but they are not.
Most casinos have two options. Either you self exclude for a certain time, or you close your account indefinately.
The first is for those who have problems and the other if you just want it closed for whatever reason.

The problem is that at least the EM-casinos are starting the SE rules with ''If you feel you need a break..''
They do explain what SE means but are not really explaining that people who SE are considered to have gambling problems,and just say it's different from closing your account.

With all the time options they need to have now it's really confusing. You can't have a gambling problem for 1 month and then be considered well enough to play

 

[curremon]

My problem here is that i have closed my superlenny account back in april..
I have played at thrills after that and also at kaboo.. but havent made cashout from kaboo yet...
What happens if i win ?
Even support says i can play even ive been SE at superlenny without any mention about Gambling Problem.
But what if i got lucky and win like 10000e.. i think its different story after that.

 

[Tirilej]

My problem here is that i have closed my superlenny account back in april..
I have played at thrills after that and also at kaboo.. but havent made cashout from kaboo yet...
What happens if i win ?
Even support says i can play even ive been SE at superlenny without any mention about Gambling Problem.
But what if i got lucky and win like 10000e.. i think its different story after that.

It depends a little how you did it when you close the account.

Did you ask to get self excluded or did you ask them to close your account?
Was it some automatic function where you choosed a certain time?
Was it indefinately with no time limit mentioned?

 

[curremon]

It depends a little how you did it when you close the account.

Did you ask to get self excluded or did you ask them to close your account?
Was it some automatic function where you choosed a certain time?
Was it indefinately with no time limit mentioned?

IT doesnt matter really if this is how it is:

"And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE."

 

[maxd]

This one.

And which part of that are you referring to?

 

[smokeeye]

And which part of that are you referring to?

I guess he means this line:

""We are of-course truly sorry for inconvenience of the OP but also want to note that he did SE and if he would have lost his deposits we would have refunded them as well, all of them from the SE date, not just the last one.""

As he also gets this from regular support:

"""We dont return deposits if there is no mention of gambling problem when you have SE at any of our sistercasinos.""

 

[curremon]

And which part of that are you referring to?

and this one "And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE"

Im so confused

 

[maxd]

Im so confused

Join the club! I've been kicking this UKGC stuff around for months, still haven't got it sorted. TBH the UKGC stuff is self-contradictory in places but I'm fairly sure that's because they're still working it out themselves.

Since your quotes are from Erik I think I'll leave it to him to comment.

What I can say is that the UKGC rules have thus far tried to say that a player can SE for recreational reasons -- personal preferences, account management, etc -- IF THEY EXPLICITLY SAY SO, otherwise (presumably) the SE is to be taken as a gambling problem issue and applied much more strictly.

The new proposals say that all SE should be treated as addiction-related -- they go into some detail that basically says "SE should only be used for gambling addiction self-help" -- and strictly enforced in all cases, while recreational exclusions should be done under a new (as yet not implemented) system called "gambling management tools".

So, as I read it, we're clearly in a situation where the rules are being formed and re-formed at the very moment we are discussing this here. Given that it's no surprise that you, me and most other folks are chasing our tails a bit over the SE "rules".

 

[Tirilej]

IT doesnt matter really if this is how it is:

"And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE."

I wouldn't have asked if I didn't KNOW for sure that it makes a different.

Self exclude or Closing an account is NOT the same thing when it comes to those rules.

So did you Self exclude or just asked to have your account closed?
If you SE'd they can deny your winnings.

But if you SE'd then you should be entitle to get your deposits back from both places since the time of the SE, so maybe it's a win situation

 

[curremon]

So to avoid all these shitty rules dont ever use SE option ?
Just send email to close account and no problems ?

 

[Tirilej]

So to avoid all these shitty rules dont ever use SE option ?
Just send email to close account and no problems ?

Yepp, an never ever mention a time you want it to be closed either because that can be seen as if you SE'd anyway
I added something to my last post...

 

[curremon]

So whats the situation if one of those account is permanently closed and cant never be opened again ?

 

[Tirilej]

So whats the situation if one of those account is permanently closed and cant never be opened again ?

Then they really should have picked up that from the other two casinos.
If that's the case then you should be entitled to your deposits back. At least those you made after that account was closed permanently.

You know, it's unfortunately not possible to just close your account permanently and forever without it being seen as a self exclusion.

It's not always in all places forever anyway because they can have a limit for 5 years, or they can be allowed to open the account after 1 year according to MGA rules, if the player seem to have ''recovered'' mysteriously
(That can have been changed now after the ukgc so I'm not sure)

Edit: Any account that have been closed but can be reopened whenever the player ask for it, is NOT a Self excluded account.
You can ask it to be forever but if you still can open it then it's just closed.

 

[curremon]

UKGC rules are only players from UK..
For any other country they use MGA rules when it comes to SE.

This was confirmed by betsafe

 

[Tirilej]

UKGC rules are from players from UK..
For any other country they use MGA rules when it comes to SE.

This was confirmed by betsafe

I still don't see anything different when it comes to what I wrote.
They are still following their T&C's.

I guess Erik will have to check for you. Asking support is not enough

 

[Erik]

SE

Hi

What i meant earlier is that under the UKGC right now, it doesnt matter if you close your account for no reason or if you say you clos it for responsible gaming reason, we need to treat them both the same.

This differs slightly from the MGA license where there is a different procedure for normal SE and for players closing their account for responsible gamin.

Regards
Erik

 

[quber]

Just reading through the T's and C's for kaboo and saw this

6.7 Should you opt for self-exclusion in the manners contemplated above then You will not be able to reverse this position for at least 7 days, after which You will be able to send an email to the same email address in order to re-activate Your access to our Games and re-activate Your Member Account.

Yet according to the UKGC rules at Old / Expired Link on page 50 it states:-

5 Licensees should take all reasonable steps to ensure that:

a the minimum self-exclusion period offered is of a duration of not less than 6 nor more than 12 months.

I can understand the 7 day period being used for deposit limits and so forth but for a SE it has to be 6 months minimum, you seem to have account management mixed up with SE.

EDIT:

In fact you are leaving yourselves open to abuse. If i SE then 7 days later re-open my account and lose £1,000 I could very easily claim that back as I should not have been allowed to re-open yet if I win I will happily take my money, unless you then claim I shouldn't have been allowed to re-open.

 

[dunover]

Just reading through the T's and C's for kaboo and saw this

6.7 Should you opt for self-exclusion in the manners contemplated above then You will not be able to reverse this position for at least 7 days, after which You will be able to send an email to the same email address in order to re-activate Your access to our Games and re-activate Your Member Account.

Yet according to the UKGC rules at Old / Expired Link on page 50 it states:-

5 Licensees should take all reasonable steps to ensure that:

a the minimum self-exclusion period offered is of a duration of not less than 6 nor more than 12 months.

I can understand the 7 day period being used for deposit limits and so forth but for a SE it has to be 6 months minimum, you seem to have account management mixed up with SE.

EDIT:

In fact you are leaving yourselves open to abuse. If i SE then 7 days later re-open my account and lose £1,000 I could very easily claim that back as I should not have been allowed to re-open yet if I win I will happily take my money, unless you then claim I shouldn't have been allowed to re-open.

I think a lot of this mess comes down to foreign-run casinos not having English employees or otherwise misreading the UKGC rules. If you check the Anglo-speaking sites like 32red and all the big bookies they have this spot-on - the minimum SE term is 6 months and anything less they class as a break. This tends to be the benchmark we are using and thus expect all UKGC licensees to follow it but it is clear something is getting lost in translation sometimes. Inference and implied sentences can be quite hard for non-native English speakers. Of course, that's being kind. Some have alleged this is deliberate as advantageous to the licensees. it just seems a coincidence that much of the aggro is confined to non-UK businesses.
Whichever, Max is right in that the UKGC needs to be more specific and sort this sh*t out. It isn't difficult.

 

[Tirilej]

Hi

What i meant earlier is that under the UKGC right now, it doesnt matter if you close your account for no reason or if you say you clos it for responsible gaming reason, we need to treat them both the same.

This differs slightly from the MGA license where there is a different procedure for normal SE and for players closing their account for responsible gamin.

Regards
Erik

So you mean you're handling this different than others?

So if I ask you to Close my account no mention of reason, or time, you treat that as if I have a gambling problem and won't open it again?
You really are confusing me now and this sound horrible.

I will never again try to advice anyone in here with anything that has to do with SE or Gambling problems again, that's for sure.

 

[spintee]

Take spingenie, They have it easy, Where it states block abilty to play spingenie why on other sites they canot do this & just put a link in there? Sating other sites?

I think alot are taking the break and SE the wrong way and interpreting it to there best interest,

 

[Erik]

So you mean you're handling this different than others?

So if I ask you to Close my account no mention of reason, or time, you treat that as if I have a gambling problem and won't open it again?
You really are confusing me now and this sound horrible.

I will never again try to advice anyone in here with anything that has to do with SE or Gambling problems again, that's for sure.

Hi

As I mentioned in my post it only affect UK players, in the UKGC license there is no diff between closing your account for gambling problem or for any other reason. What ever time frame is choses by the player for his SE will be enforced

Regards
Erik

 

[quber]

Hi

As I mentioned in my post it only affect UK players, in the UKGC license there is no diff between closing your account for gambling problem or for any other reason. What ever time frame is choses by the player for his SE will be enforced

Regards
Erik

But you are not complying with the UKGC.

Your website states:-

Self-exclusion

Should you need to take a break from gambling, we provide a self-exclusion facility which can be activated from here or by contacting Support. Self-exclusion means that your account will remain closed for a minimum period of 7 days, and will not be reactivated under any circumstances during the exclusion period. This is the major difference to a standard account closure request. A written request (expire after your stipulated time frame) is required before account re-opening can be considered.


The UKGC state:-

5 Licensees should take all reasonable steps to ensure that:

a the minimum self-exclusion period offered is of a duration of not less than 6 nor more than 12 months;


*I am not in the UK though so it may be worded different in the UK*


EDITED to add-

Page 44 of this DOC does make a difference between SE and closing for a break

Old / Expired Link

Social responsibility code provision 3.3.4 Remote time-out facility

All remote licences except: any remote lottery licence the holder of which does not provide facilities for participation in instant win lotteries, ancillary remote betting licences, remote betting standard (remote platform), gaming machine technical, gambling software, ancillary remote bingo, ancillary remote casino and remote betting intermediary (trading room only) licences.

This provision comes into force on 31 October 2015
1 Licensees must offer a ‘time out’ facility for customers for the following durations:
a 24 hours
b one week
c one month or
d such other period as the customer may reasonably request, up to a maximum of 6 weeks.




The use of time out is discussed on pages 55 and 56 of this consultation DOC Old / Expired Link (In orange)