Kaboo.com - What?!

quber said:
Yes but by voiding a win the casino keeps the money that it would otherwise have had to pay out. it doesn't make any extra money and is at the same place they would have been if the player had never deposited.

And that is why it is not money until it's processed..


quber said:
If a casino makes £100,000 on average a day and someone wins and withdraws that amount then they are even for the day. If the casino voided those winnings then they are back at their £100,000 profit so a casino does gain by voiding wins.

That is correct, but the difference is that 100.000€ in profit would come (in a perfect world) from legitimate players, where as that's not the case in this scenario.


Player deposits 100€ - Casino is up 100€.
Player wins 2000€ on DoA - Casino is still 100€ up - Player thinks he's 2000€ richer, but not quite yet.
Player WD's 1000€ - The Casino is now 900€ down.
Player busts with the remaining 1100€ - Casino is still "only" 900€ down


For this case it's very simply like this:

Player deposits 100€ - Casino is up 100€.
Player wins 1000€ on DoA - Casino is up 100€.
Player busts everything - Casino is up 100€.
Casino returns deposit of 100€ due to to SE/regulations - Player and the Casino is even.
 
Player deposits 100€ - Casino is up 100€.
Player wins 2000€ on DoA - Casino is still 100€ up - Player thinks he's 2000€ richer, but not quite yet.
Player WD's 1000€ - The Casino is now 900€ down.
Player busts with the remaining 1100€ - Casino is still "only" 900€ down


.

But if the casino cancels that €1,000 withdrawal and just returns the players deposit then they are even so they are €900 better off than if they had processed the withdrawal.

All I am basically saying is that the casino does gain by cancelling withdrawals as they get to keep the money they would otherwise pay out
 
Well, who's paying the 900€ then?

The 900€ simply doesn't exist (yet). Not until it's processed anywho.

Lets say the casino has €10,000 in their bank account at the start of the day, the player deposits €100 putting the casino's account at €10,100.

The player wins and withdraws €1,000, this puts their account at €9,100 if it was processed. The casino now closes the account cancels the withdrawal and returns the deposit. The account is now back to the original €10,000

This means they have €900 more in their bank than they would have if they processed the withdrawal. Therefore they have an incentive to close accounts and return deposits of winning players.
 
Im just chatting with livehelp at kaboo.

They are doing this IF you have closed account on sister casino due gambling problems..
If you just choose to close account they wont take your winnings..

Hi

For the UKGC licenses it applies to any form of SE, not just for times where you have mentioned responsible gaming.

Regards
Erik
 
I'm sorry but I can't make sense of what you're writing.

From what I see you agree with me. 10.000€ in the opening of the day and 10.000€ by the end of the day, forget everything in the middle. How has the Casino gone "up" 900€? Besides the initial deposit, the numbers/balances on our screen aren't money.. they are just that, digits on our screen.
 
My opinion: If this is all about protecting problem gamblers, the casino should check ALL accounts like they do when somebody makes a withdrawal and refund all players who self excluded. And not wait until the player contacts them or tries to withdraw.

If they dont act like that it will always feel like they are happy to take the money until the player notice.
 
Hi

We have mentioned this in another thread, but I will post it here aswell.

We currently do not have a function to automatically stop a player signing up to our site if he is SE on a sister site. That is why we are stating it in the TC.

As i mentioned in the other thread the motivation behind that we cannot allow play when you are SE from any site under the same license is to protect the player who have choose he needs help. And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE.

Once we discover a player that is SE on any of the sister site of the casino he is playing at we reset the account so it will be like he never played, regardless if he won or lost. This way a player will never be worse of by the fact he managed to play. Which is the point of the SE rules set up.

Regarding the tech fix to auto block any player trying to signup that is SE on a sister site is not as easy as people make it out to be, and it is something we are working to have. It will save us and the players a lot of time and grievances to "nip it at the but" so to speak instead of having situations like this to arise.

We are of-course truly sorry for inconvenience of the OP but also want to note that he did SE and if he would have lost his deposits we would have refunded them as well, all of them from the SE date, not just the last one.

Please post here or PM me if you have any further questions

Regards
Erik
 
Hi

We have mentioned this in another thread, but I will post it here aswell.

We currently do not have a function to automatically stop a player signing up to our site if he is SE on a sister site. That is why we are stating it in the TC.

As i mentioned in the other thread the motivation behind that we cannot allow play when you are SE from any site under the same license is to protect the player who have choose he needs help. And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE.

Once we discover a player that is SE on any of the sister site of the casino he is playing at we reset the account so it will be like he never played, regardless if he won or lost. This way a player will never be worse of by the fact he managed to play. Which is the point of the SE rules set up.

Regarding the tech fix to auto block any player trying to signup that is SE on a sister site is not as easy as people make it out to be, and it is something we are working to have. It will save us and the players a lot of time and grievances to "nip it at the but" so to speak instead of having situations like this to arise.

We are of-course truly sorry for inconvenience of the OP but also want to note that he did SE and if he would have lost his deposits we would have refunded them as well, all of them from the SE date, not just the last one.

Please post here or PM me if you have any further questions

Regards
Erik

We know your trying but its about the whole SE / Take a break,

The bit what I highlighted, Why does it take weeks sometimes months and only when it comes to a withdraw? Why not check the name as soon as a deposit is made?
 
FTR I've had a couple fairly extensive chats with the Betit (Kaboo, Thrills, SuperLenny) people and the bottom line AFAICT is that they are currently doing their best given the situation they have on their hands. Suffice it to say that at the moment it's not entirely up to them to change the way their casinos handle SE. No small part of this is a platform related and I can confirm that their platform's other casinos are experiencing similar problems.

I'm not saying that this makes everything okay nor that all is perfect and everyone should be happy with the status quo. As with many issues related to the UKGC this is an evolving situation. I think these casinos have policies in place that are fair and reasonable under the circumstances. We all look forward to those circumstances improving but this is now and IMO they're doing a good job of trying to be fair to players accidentally caught in the SE bind between casinos.
 
FTR I've had a couple fairly extensive chats with the Betit (Kaboo, Thrills, SuperLenny) people and the bottom line AFAICT is that they are currently doing their best given the situation they have on their hands. Suffice it to say that at the moment it's not entirely up to them to change the way their casinos handle SE. No small part of this is a platform related and I can confirm that their platform's other casinos are experiencing similar problems.

I'm not saying that this makes everything okay nor that all is perfect and everyone should be happy with the status quo. As with many issues related to the UKGC this is an evolving situation. I think these casinos have policies in place that are fair and reasonable under the circumstances. We all look forward to those circumstances improving but this is now and IMO they're doing a good job of trying to be fair to players accidentally caught in the SE bind between casinos.

It isn't just Thrills etc. the biggest culprits are EM and Cassava.

Maybe it's difficult to cross-reference details platform-wide for the licensee but it certainly isn't difficult in the meantime to include a simple check-box on the registration page listing the sister casinos to avoid these problem sign-ups until such cross-referencing facilities are in place?
 
Maybe it's difficult to cross-reference details platform-wide for the licensee but it certainly isn't difficult in the meantime to include a simple check-box on the registration page listing the sister casinos to avoid these problem sign-ups until such cross-referencing facilities are in place?

Or, read the Terms, which everyone should do anyway. It's all there, and a good bit more than a checkbox or whatever can't provide.
 
Or, read the Terms, which everyone should do anyway. It's all there, and a good bit more than a checkbox or whatever can't provide.

It is? I had no idea because if that was the case I would never be angry at any of this SE things going on.
That is if you don't speak specifically about Kaboo/Thrills/S-L because they do have most information in their rules. :)
 
It is? I had no idea because if that was the case I would never be angry at any of this SE things going on.
That is if you don't speak specifically about Kaboo/Thrills/S-L because they do have most information in their rules. :)

I disagree Max. As far as this subject goes, a simple checkbox and one sentence will cover the intent and effect of a whole paragraph of terms:

WARNING! We adhere to your GC rules regarding Responsible Gaming; we cannot accept registrations or pay winnings to any individual currently Self-Excluded at any casino(s) operating under our license: Casino A, Casino B, Casino C. Please tick the box to acknowledge this notice.

(Tirilej) Exactly. That's another point I've made over and over until I'm blue in the face. I could read terms for the rest of my life but it's pointless unless the sister sites are CLEARLY included in the terms (like Kaboo have now done). When I say listed in the terms that means in the terms and the new player signing up should not be expected to become an internet detective and conduct his/her own research at the various Licensing Bodies, like for example they would have to do at an EM site.

That is unreasonable, unfair and not in the spirit of the UKGC and certainly a breach of standard consumer protection laws and precedents.

It's OK for us lot to be clued-up on this sort of crapola, but think about the innocent majority who aren't as aware as we are/should be!
 
Hi

We have mentioned this in another thread, but I will post it here aswell.

We currently do not have a function to automatically stop a player signing up to our site if he is SE on a sister site. That is why we are stating it in the TC.

As i mentioned in the other thread the motivation behind that we cannot allow play when you are SE from any site under the same license is to protect the player who have choose he needs help. And under the UKGC license any player that SE is treated the same, even if he doesn't say anything about RG in his SE.

Once we discover a player that is SE on any of the sister site of the casino he is playing at we reset the account so it will be like he never played, regardless if he won or lost. This way a player will never be worse of by the fact he managed to play. Which is the point of the SE rules set up.

Regarding the tech fix to auto block any player trying to signup that is SE on a sister site is not as easy as people make it out to be, and it is something we are working to have. It will save us and the players a lot of time and grievances to "nip it at the but" so to speak instead of having situations like this to arise.

We are of-course truly sorry for inconvenience of the OP but also want to note that he did SE and if he would have lost his deposits we would have refunded them as well, all of them from the SE date, not just the last one.

Please post here or PM me if you have any further questions

Regards
Erik

I believe if EM had decided that this is the most important issue they have on their development list this would have been fixed months ago. This have been going on for almost a year. Claiming that "it is not a easy as you think" is probably true and has worked as an excuse for a few months but now after this long time it's not ok.

Just say as it is: EM has things on their list that is more important=could make more money, than this SE issue.
 
I disagree Max. As far as this subject goes, a simple checkbox and one sentence will cover the intent and effect of a whole paragraph of terms:

WARNING! We adhere to your GC rules regarding Responsible Gaming; we cannot accept registrations or pay winnings to any individual currently Self-Excluded at any casino(s) operating under our license: Casino A, Casino B, Casino C. Please tick the box to acknowledge this notice.

(Tirilej) Exactly. That's another point I've made over and over until I'm blue in the face. I could read terms for the rest of my life but it's pointless unless the sister sites are CLEARLY included in the terms (like Kaboo have now done). When I say listed in the terms that means in the terms and the new player signing up should not be expected to become an internet detective and conduct his/her own research at the various Licensing Bodies, like for example they would have to do at an EM site.

That is unreasonable, unfair and not in the spirit of the UKGC and certainly a breach of standard consumer protection laws and precedents.

It's OK for us lot to be clued-up on this sort of crapola, but think about the innocent majority who aren't as aware as we are/should be!

This is bang on the money. Most of the ' I didn't realise and now my money is gone' type threads have been started by newbie members too.

Frustratingly simple to solve - If they can identify and void winnings for going a penny over max bet allowance, block bonus abusers / 'multi account-sters', then they can sort this mess.
 
I disagree Max. ... think about the innocent majority who aren't as aware as we are/should be!

Sure, which is exactly why they and everyone else should read the Terms. IMO the Terms at _these_ casinos have been considerably improved since we started this debate insofar as the SE issue goes. As to other casino groups, like some you've mentioned earlier, I only comment to say that in some cases the problems with those groups is a lot bigger than clauses related to SE.

I hear what you're saying about your checkbox thingy, etc. Maybe adding that is a big deal, maybe it isn't. We simply don't know and I think it's a bit silly to pretend as if we do. But why just that checkbox/whatever, why not Term X and Term Y too? Why not put all the Terms there? Or why not just leave the Terms where they are and expect, as always, that they'll be read where they're supposed to be read.

If the Terms aren't clear or are otherwise lacking then that's a fine point to bring up, as has already been done. But I honestly don't see the point of spreading the Terms clauses around -- popups, checkboxes, or whatever -- if there is no particularly compelling reason to do so.

I maintain Terms of our own and if you asked me to start messing about with some Terms in popups, etc I'd tell you it's on my ToDo list right after "Learn Portugese". Since I, for example, say what I need to say in "the Terms" -- in my case we're talking about the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ -- 1000 things would be a better use of my time and resources than spreading those around and making more work (and head-aches) for myself. Especially since people should go to the FAQ in order to read the FAQ: fragmenting the FAQ around the site will cause far more confusion and hassle for everyone than it would be worth, IMHO.

One of the first principles of User Interface design is to focus the user's attention and not fragment the message you are trying to convey. I think the same applies here, more or less.
 
imo its fair...

that se-thing is clearly and openly stated - thrills-superlenny-kaboo is not responsible for em projects priorisation. to selfexclude from a sistersite - that should be clear to anyone - leads to a de facto exclusion from the whole group.

last but not least: if i was dissatisfied by any of their operations - why should i join another one? the name does not exchange the operator.

the thrills people are imo offering outstanding service and extremely fair, real goodies like those sweet-tasty-yummy wager free cash spins.

customer support is superb since you can really feel how they honestly respect and appreciate their players - everytime you get in touch. If someones expirience differs from mine - that might happen, however than i cannot understand why they feel the wish to signup at another site run by the same team.

there are enough other offers out there. the market is getting extremely crowded. for any taste enough to sign up. :lolup:

my 2 cents. ;-)
 
Sure, which is exactly why they and everyone else should read the Terms. IMO the Terms at _these_ casinos have been considerably improved since we started this debate insofar as the SE issue goes. As to other casino groups, like some you've mentioned earlier, I only comment to say that in some cases the problems with those groups is a lot bigger than clauses related to SE.

I hear what you're saying about your checkbox thingy, etc. Maybe adding that is a big deal, maybe it isn't. We simply don't know and I think it's a bit silly to pretend as if we do. But why just that checkbox/whatever, why not Term X and Term Y too? Why not put all the Terms there? Or why not just leave the Terms where they are and expect, as always, that they'll be read where they're supposed to be read.

If the Terms aren't clear or are otherwise lacking then that's a fine point to bring up, as has already been done. But I honestly don't see the point of spreading the Terms clauses around -- popups, checkboxes, or whatever -- if there is no particularly compelling reason to do so.

I maintain Terms of our own and if you asked me to start messing about with some Terms in popups, etc I'd tell you it's on my ToDo list right after "Learn Portugese". Since I, for example, say what I need to say in "the Terms" -- in my case we're talking about the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ -- 1000 things would be a better use of my time and resources than spreading those around and making more work (and head-aches) for myself. Especially since people should go to the FAQ in order to read the FAQ: fragmenting the FAQ around the site will cause far more confusion and hassle for everyone than it would be worth, IMHO.

One of the first principles of User Interface design is to focus the user's attention and not fragment the message you are trying to convey. I think the same applies here, more or less.

Yes, received and understood bar one thing - "there is no particularly compelling reason to do so". Actually, there is. As far as consumers go, you may have noticed that the PRIMARY term which is crucial to the transaction in question is being made obvious immediately to the customer. An example being those TV ads for say 'Get a free credit report from Experian' - you will notice that at the bottom of the screen it states 'Setting up a direct debit is necessary'. This is because so many people were getting caught out by the offer of a 'free' months report then missing the term which stated that unless they cancelled within 14 days that they would be charged for the next 12 months direct from their bank account. Due to the large number of complaints about this obscure term the ASA made companies add the primary term up front.

I also find that at most reputable sites the relevant bonus terms for example are repeated directly in their promo pop-up or banner SkyVegas being an example from yesterday I saw. Your example about CM is unfair really. Not fragmenting terms at CM is unlikely to cost a visitor thousands of pounds because they aren't risking money with CM. You aren't selling anything.

At the end of the day it's all about transparency. Whatever our opinions, this issue IS without doubt causing problems, and whether we blame the player, casino or both something needs to be done to alleviate the problem. All I'm trying to do is suggest solutions.
 
At the end of the day it's all about transparency. Whatever our opinions, this issue IS without doubt causing problems, and whether we blame the player, casino or both something needs to be done to alleviate the problem. All I'm trying to do is suggest solutions.

I hear what you're saying, understand and support the intent, but think there is more to solving the problem than simply banging up a notice. All I'm saying is that sometimes the first solution that comes to mind isn't necessarily the best one, especially in terms of long-term consistency and maintainability.

As to the SE issue in general we are in total agreement: it's a frickin' mess at the moment and some serious attention needs to be given to it by the decision makers at the UKGC. Last I heard there was a collective case being put together to present the issue as a whole to them, this would cite current cases across a number of the player-facing sites including us.

In other words the deep concerns that you and others have expressed here have not gone unheard: this has definitely been red-flagged. If and when I hear more about the issue being taken to the UKGC I'll let you know.
 
Lets say the casino has €10,000 in their bank account at the start of the day, the player deposits €100 putting the casino's account at €10,100.

The player wins and withdraws €1,000, this puts their account at €9,100 if it was processed. The casino now closes the account cancels the withdrawal and returns the deposit. The account is now back to the original €10,000

This means they have €900 more in their bank than they would have if they processed the withdrawal. Therefore they have an incentive to close accounts and return deposits of winning players.
This discussion is making my head spin a bit - but I think quber is correct.

By not paying out (for whatever reason) the casino is better off. No-one can argue against that basic fact, can they?
All cancelled winnings means more profit (or less loss, if you want to look at it that way) for the casino.

KK
 
Please, do whatever is necessary to end this madness. So bored of these damned threads. Each one like its something new.

Why on earth are so many people self excluding then signing up elsewhere anyway?
 
Please, do whatever is necessary to end this madness. So bored of these damned threads. Each one like its something new.

Why on earth are so many people self excluding then signing up elsewhere anyway?

Because some sites don't have, or differentiate between SE and take-a-break. Therefore the consequences are not as intended. There are various reasons why people SE as well as gambling issues. 'Rage quit' after a continuous bad run. After a big win, telling themselves it'll be dribbled back because of the house edge over time. The selection of slots isn't what they want, but later changes. Maybe they'll be busy for a few months so disable for security reasons, in their mind. The had a bad CS experience. They got fed-up with marketing e-mails/texts despite opting out.

So, yes there are many reasons.:cool:
 
kaboo support still says this so who to believe here :D

"We dont return deposits if there is no mention of gambling problem when you have SE at any of our sistercasinos."

Kind regards,

Siiri
Support
 
kaboo support still says this so who to believe here ...

AFAIK the UKGC _currently_ provides the player the option, SE for self-protection reasons (addiction) and SE for "other" reasons. So IMO the casino is not wrong here, the player needs to make it clear what the reasons for SE are. They've assumed that if it's not explicitly stated by the player that it's for self-protection then they'll assume it isn't. Not an unreasonable call, IMO.

I should say that the UKGC has detailed proposals for restructuring the whole SE system, so that SE would be used exclusively for "self-protection" and the new system -- tentatively called "gambling management" I believe -- would be used for non-addiction purposes. As ever it's a work-in-progress. Since casinos are dealing with real SE issues _now_ they have to make a call.
 

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