Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[Josyck]

The problem is that Joyland Casino has changed my transaction history and he has deleted my withdrawal request of 4529 and substituted it for another of only 500 euros (my original deposit), this is the amount that I have received into my neteller account, only 500 of my 4529 withdrawal requested.

I have been talking with the casino's support but they have not tell me anything.

What do you recomend to do?.


Thanks,
Josyck

 

[paul02085]

"What do you recomend to do?."

For one thing give us more details. Did you play with a bonus?

 

[Josyck]

I made a 500 deposit and I received a bonus of 808, then I played with that bonus much more than the wagering requirements and I made my withdrawal of about 2500. The following day I decided continue playing with the money and I reversed my 2500 withdrawal and I won more, I made a final withdrawal of 4500. Some days later they returned my deposit and my winnings disappeared in the cashier showing only a 500 withdrawal and not the 4500!!!. I have tried to contact them but they don't give any answer why my winnings disappear, that is why I ask here for help.

Thank you.

 

[schankwart]

Have these fellows ever sent a manager (representative) of their Casino over here?

Josyck's story so far sounds very ugly and an explanation of the Casino is more than neccessary. I would suggest you to wait for a couple days or so and then file a complaint with Playtech's dispute service, if nothing happens.

 

[Vesuvio]

I notice Bryan mentions at least one complaint from Joyland in his current newsletter: https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/ (you need to scroll down a bit)

On the face of it your case looks like simple theft, but there's not much we can say without knowing the full story and the casino's justification, if they have one. You could try "pitching a bitch" (if you haven't already), but Casinomeister's going on holiday so it'll take a while to get a response.

I've never seen this casino mentioned before & I don't think it's on any blacklists. Is it new and/or a member of a better known group of casinos?

 

[The Gunslinger]

Joyland

I've never seen this casino mentioned before & I don't think it's on any blacklists. Is it new and/or a member of a better known group of casinos?

Information about Joyland's affiliation can be found locally here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...ing-imperial-e-club-and-crown-solutions.9061/

I've always assumed that Joyland was under the same ownership and/or managment as Carnival, New York etc. Although this is never specifically disclosed by the casinos, neither is the well documented ties between other members of the group (i.e. New York and Carnival.)

Joyland so far as I know is a brand new casino (although I could be wrong.)

If I understand the complaint correctly the management of Joyland casino modified the transactions records. Regardless if they claim the bonus as a contributing factor in the non-payment of the withdrawal (which may not be especially atypical for casinos) it still doesn't explain the modification of the transaction history.

However in this case it may be easy to prove that the history was modified (if they claim it was not) by the withdrawal receipts sent to the account holder via email. If they do not claim the transaction history was modified, that leaves them with the obvious first step of explaining why it was nessisary to do this, as I have never had this happen to me at a Playtech casino (nor any other casino for that matter, sans perhaps independent software/rouge casinos.) Refunding a deposit is one thing, restructuring someone transaction history to reflect differently than what actually happened is quite another.

Joyland obviously is among the affiliates listed at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. If they are infact under the same management/ownership as Carnival, New York and the other mentioned casinos in the above link, it's curious why they would attempt such shady behavior as Carnival, New York etc. don't have a prevailing reputation for this type of behavior. I don't understand why they would allow their group's reputation to be damaged by what is obviously fradulent behavior on the part of one of their affiliated casinos.

The Gunslinger

 

[TeddyFSB]

Reading this thread, I wanted to mention that I signed up at the casino last week. I lost my initial deposit and the bonus, and then deposited again. I played a bit with the new deposit, cashed out about the same amount and received the money today. So it seems that when you play without the bonus, they pay. Not that it makes their alleged behavior any less outrageous.

 

[Aindreas_Daoc]

I notice Bryan mentions at least one complaint from Joyland in his current newsletter: https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/ (you need to scroll down a bit)

On the face of it your case looks like simple theft, but there's not much we can say without knowing the full story and the casino's justification, if they have one. You could try "pitching a bitch" (if you haven't already), but Casinomeister's going on holiday so it'll take a while to get a response.

I've never seen this casino mentioned before & I don't think it's on any blacklists. Is it new and/or a member of a better known group of casinos?

I have a problem that is very similar to this one with them. I'm trying to work it out directly with them first before bothering Bryan, who is on vacation anyway. I'll post here if my communications with them reach an impasse.

Also, I followed that link to the newsletter, and there appears to be 3 PABs for Joyland already. Just an observation.

Finally, the Playtech "Player Inquiries" link (where we are supposed to contact Playtech about problems) is apparently down.

 

[Johnny Empire]

I have had the same problem with Joyland with my initial deposit made on 8/4. They adjusted my withdraw request of about $1500 down to $500, my deposit amount.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I have had the same problem with Joyland with my initial deposit made on 8/4. They adjusted my withdraw request of about $1500 down to $500, my deposit amount.

Have you yet taken action?

Curiously, is your PAB one of the three listed in the newsletter?

Have they responded at all to attempts to contact them.

This kind of action is very disturbing

The Gunslinger

 

[casinomike]

hello,
I am having similar problems with Joyland. I signed up to their casino on the 4th of August and deposited $500 and did receive an $808 signup bonus. I played some video poker (allowed by their terms) and had a very good run, then played blackjack (also allowed) and had some more very good luck. I made some cashouts that night just over ten thousand USD. I also played well over their required wagering for the bonus, and it was removed from my account on cashout.

much to my suprise they simply refunded my $500 deposit, and locked out my account. I have not been able to login to the casino since 8/5, and have received minimal support. Their email reply said I would be contacted as soon as possible (I have not yet been phoned). I have made attempts to call their support but could not reach anyone. Now I am reading about people having problems with this casino as well ? how should I proceed?

 

[The Dude]

These are the forum members who have PABd about Joyland:
sookie
Josyck
rufim901

The response time is very slow, and Playtech's "player inquiries" form is down, which really pisses me off. I've requested Playtech to get this back up as soon as possible.

 

[sirius]

Joyland was launched in early 2003. At the time it was independent (license Joyland Gaming Inc. but the license closed in March 2004) and you could choose to view it as either a Korean language or English site.

Crown Solutions Gaming Limited is the new casino license name for Club Dice from January last year.

The Club Dice group have had problems before. I remember one person claimed they stole thousands from his account but the casino claimed he played the money out. I also had a lot of problems with them.

Club Dice was the first Playtech Licensee. Although now called Crown Solutions Gaming, the company and license name used to be Celebrity Clubs GY Ltd / Club Dice Casino Ltd and the company address was from Nicosia, Cyprus (I've noticed a lot of casino companies from there and this includes the infamous CasinoBar).

 

[sirius]

I think you can assume Club Dice has strong ownership links to Playtech as it was their first licensee and Playtech was based in Nicosia, Cyprus too.

 

[Josyck]

Joyland called me yesterday. They told me that there was a software error that gave me more comp points than usual and therefore all my winnings were void and my deposit returned because I had played risk free. What?????.
This is not true. I did not play risk free! I played with my money and the bonus I received for signing-up. I am lucky and I win, then I cash my comps and I withdraw. The next day I reverse the withdrawal and I continue playing with that money and win more and withdraw again, and now they invent this story to not pay me my winnings.

This is absolutely incredible!

 

[Johnny Empire]

Have you yet taken action?

Curiously, is your PAB one of the three listed in the newsletter?

Have they responded at all to attempts to contact them.

This kind of action is very disturbing

The Gunslinger

I haven't PAB yet because Bryan is on vacation. Playtech has been down.

I did contact the casino CS. They said there was a bug in their system, and so they were voiding all wins for that day. Deposits were being returned instead.

Somehow I don't think deposits were returned for people who busted out though.

 

[hofdaddy]

I am in the same boat as the rest of you. The first time I talked to CS they accused me of being dishonest. The whole system was like this for a week before they caught it. I ran up $6200 there and even ran up a $2000 session under their "new" rules and they still declined my withdrawls. I got my original deposit back of $500 but they are claiming that my winnings were all comp points which is entirely untrue.

I sent an email to the manager yesterday and was immediately called by a CSR. We talked for about 30 mins and I explained what was going on and she called me back about 10 mins ago. She said that it was "managements decision" to not give me the $2000 that I won under the "new" rules but also not give me anything but my deposit. So basically I played about 12 hours of BJ and JoB for nothing.

 

[andrew26]

I am in the same boat. I won $356.75 playing by the rules the casino set up. I requested a withdrawal and even provided the documents they requested to validate the withdrawal.

When my withdrawal hit Neteller, it was $356.75 less than what they had confirmed earlier.

This, to me, is the worst kind of sleazy trick a casino can pull and makes me think twice about the whole concept.

 

[schankwart]

Josyck, this is one of the top three most disgusting excuses for non-payment that I have heard from any Online Casino EVER, and believe me, I have heard quite some.
Joyland seems to attempt a mass rip-off at the moment. I can not imagine what they are up to but this scam needs to be shut down immediately and all players paid.
Phew.

 

[JohnGalt]

To shed some light on the situation, they did indeed have an obvious mistake in their comp point system, which apparently (according to hofdaddy) lasted for an entire week (I knew of the mistake but not the time period).

This mistake was, they were giving 4 comp points for every 1$ wagered, and they converted comp points to $ at the rate of 100 comp points for every $1. Obviously this is a 4% rebate, which is obviously a mistake, and it must have been especially obvious to the people complaining here.

Also, this happened during a transition in their comp points system. Before the mistake it was 4 points/$1 wagered, 4000 points to $1 cash, afterwards it was 1 point/$10 wagered, 100 points to convert to $1 cash. So you can see, they made a mistake (a really, really stupid mistake) in the transition.

This is open to debate, but in my mind they are within their rights to retroactively change the comp points to what they should have been, since this was an obvious error people were taking advantage of. However, voiding actual winnings and altering transaction histories is 100% unacceptable.

I think everyone here should put out in the open how much of their winnings was from gambling and how much was from comp points. I mean I understand there's another factor here of people getting lots of comp points and then using them to run up a huge balance where otherwise maybe they would have busted, so I guess any winnings generated purely with converted comp points could be taken back as well.

But when it's part converted comps and part their cash, I'd say the winnings have to be honored, and if someone just deposited, got the bonus, won money, converted their comps, then cashed out (which I feel is the majority situation here) then the winnings should be honored, minus the extra comps.

 

[schankwart]

Interesting insight, John. Lets hear the winners side of view.

Definetely though the Casino needs to correct its behavior. There is NO doubt.

 

[TrixSlice]

I too played this deal, I made about over 1,000 in comps, but I didn't make thousands like the OP has. I made around 100 at this casino. They paid me back my deposit and will pay my winnings as soon as I send my driver's license. However, after checking, my account is still open and they did not change my transaction history. I find it disturbing that actual transaction history was changed as the original poster implied. If that's true, then any PlayTech casino can change the winnings of a big winner and the public would scream 'liar' when the winner cried. If we can get some kind of proof that actual transactions have been changed (since this might very well be a lie), maybe someone can contact PlayTech and let them know that Crown Solutions and Management are athorizing the changes of actual transaction logs! Highly undignified. Has any of Crown Solutions other casinos done something of this sort in the past? What other casinos does Crown Solutions own/operate?

 

[Vesuvio]

Altering transaction logs is pretty stunning, even for a Playtech casino. They must have realised they'd made a huge mistake and then desperately tried to sweep it under the carpet - somehow I think they might fail

As for the comp points - it's an interesting issue. They can't claim software error as all that's happened is a member of their staff put in the wrong conversion rate. You can't retroactively decide to pay out the "correct" number of comp points as that'd be like letting someone play BJ all evening with it paying out at 3:2 for a BJ. They finish off in profit and then you tell them actually you meant to pay out 6:5, so it turns out you owe us money instead.

I think a reputable on-line casino would just have to accept that they'd made a stupid error and take the losses, but it's going to be one hell of a fight to persuade an outfit like this of that. I suppose it depends whether they value their reputation or not.

Comp points can be debated but two certainties are: 1) altering transaction logs is unacceptable and has to be put right & 2) anyone who won without taking comp points into account must be paid those winnings.

 

[JohnGalt]

So just out of curiosity Vesuvio, if after I realized the casino's mistake I had started playing there non-stop for the entire week that this lasted and made almost $1 Million (which I easily could have done) would you feel they should pay me those winnings (converted comp points, that is)?

 

[Vesuvio]

So just out of curiosity Vesuvio, if after I realized the casino's mistake I had started playing there non-stop for the entire week that this lasted and made almost $1 Million (which I easily could have done) would you feel they should pay me those winnings (converted comp points, that is)?

Yes, just as a casino which offered the "wrong" odds on one of its games would also have to pay out. I don't see why the level of their incompetence or the amount of their losses makes any difference, unless they're poorly enough funded not to be able to pay (I doubt you'll find anyone's taken them for anything like $1 million).

 

[Cmaster]

I am in a similar boat with some of the posters in this thread.

On August 4th I signed up at Joyland Casino, deposited $500 and got a $808 signup bonus. I played aggressively, betting $50-$100/hand on Blackjack, played the wagering requirements a few times over, and ended up ~$2000. I was pretty happy with this -- it would've been my highest online casino win to date (I've played online only for a few months) and headed to the cashier. Went to comps section, clicked "Convert comps", and to my pleasant surprise saw something like $800 added to my balance. Ok, I admit it seemed weird, but hey -- who is going to complain about Christmas in August! I then went back, played a bit more, and cashed out a $3k profit (including probably another $300 in comp point conversions).

Well, apparently hitting the "Convert comps" points voided all my BJ winnings. Joyland casino returned me my $500 deposit saying that "I abused my gaming privileges". You see, it was my fault that some bonehead at Joyland entered a wrong conversion rate. Very clever -- I can see other casinos following their lead: "let's make some deathtrap button somewhere in the software, if a winner clicks on it, we'll just say he abused his gaming privileges! We don't have to pay him anything then!"

I am very angry right now. I did not break any rules, I played wagering requirements several times over, I didn't play any forbidden games, I didn't play any "risk-free" games. I put my money at risk, won with or without their screwup, and apparently had my winnings voided. They are the ones who are playing a no-risk game -- I would bet my house that they didn't void losses on that day and return the deposits to those who lost them.

I was called by Joyland, but told them that I will only correspond with them over email. I am awaiting for an email reply from them before I take this any further. If anyone from Joyland is reading this: I know you screwed up, and by now you probably know you screwed up, but it's not too late. Deal with me fairly and honestly, and you can fix this. I don't know if I am entititled to my comp points, I can see arguments for and against, but you have to pay my BJ winnings at least. If you don't I sincerely hope this will drive you out of business.

 

[BJesus]

Any reason why my PAB has not registered. They have since been in touch and promised to ring back today but I am still waiting.

I to have non comp related winnings that they have removed and altered transaction logs for this is not a lie.

They also denied my winnings from comp points. I was unaware of any problem 1% or 4% I would not notice. Also the bonus I took up was a high roller bonus which could well of entitled me to a higher rate of comp points.

I will be avoiding Playtech casino's until this is resolved. Also I hope other Playtech casino operators read this and see what damage has already been done to their reputation.

 

[jek187]

I'd just further like to add that I am owed well into 5 figures from Joyland. They locked my account, and I have been given no reason for why this is. I have saved all my emails with them, but nothing material has been stated. I do not know how many comp points I cashed, as I can't get into my account to check.

I am holding off until the 25th to PAB since Bryan is on vacation, but just thought I'd add yet another POed customer to this thread.

 

[ScurvyDog]

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

Given that online casinos' sole purpose is to prey on the weak and addicted, I hope that Joyland does the right thing, admits all of the issues were of their own doing, and pays out players what is owed to them, in full.

That said, I wouldn't hold my breath. Plenty of online merchants have mistakenly posted products on their websites that are listed at a fraction of what they would normally be, obviously listed in error. Those "deals" get posted and distributed widely, everyone and their monkey buys 30 of them, and the merchant ultimately says "Look, no deal, that was an obvious error and we're simply not going to honor it." and returns everyone money and possibly throws a $5 gift certificate their way.

It's more complicated than that, though, as I'm sure the size of the withdrawals in question are also directly related to the problems with the comp system, as savvy players could essentially freeroll with the comp money and be much more aggressive than normal with their targets.

If I deposited $1,000 into a Scottrade account, a computer glitch turned it $1,000,000, and I immediately invested it in some volatile stock (knowing I'd never be on the hook for the non-existent $1,000,000 no matter what happened), and flipped it an hour later for a $50,000 profit, I wouldn't expect to be allowed to keep the profit when Scottrade eventually discovered the error. It wouldn't mean that I wouldn't try to flip it, or squawk when they took it away, but it's hard to argue that I'm somehow rightfully owed that $50,000 in "profits".

Like I said, though, hope everyone gets paid. Good luck.

 

[Johnny Empire]

Some of my draw was comp obviously, how much I'm not sure.

As for the rate itself, I've seen Playtech casinos offer different amounts based on how much the casino thinks I'm worth to them. It can be adjusted to the casinos preference.

So this is NOT a computer glitch. Joyland entered in the rate themselves.

If Joyland can be let off claiming an incorrect comp rate, I should get a "do-over" too whenever I bust a deposit.

 

[JohnGalt]

Yes, just as a casino which offered the "wrong" odds on one of its games would also have to pay out. I don't see why the level of their incompetence or the amount of their losses makes any difference, unless they're poorly enough funded not to be able to pay (I doubt you'll find anyone's taken them for anything like $1 million).

Well I'll just state that most of the civilized world disagrees with you. Sportsbooks offer incorrect odds on a relatively frequent basis, and without fail all wagers on these games are null and void and bets are returned without winnings. Same for mispricing on physical items, as another poster stated. Obviously this is different because they didn't refund anyone's money who lost, I haven't really thought through how that should play into it.

As far as people claiming they didn't realize this was a mistake, this is a possibility for the casual gamer who didn't wager that much and wasn't getting say $1000 in comp points. But for these savvy players who earned $1000s in comps, I have to say they are being disingenuous.

EDIT: But let me just reiterate that joyland has handled this terribly and should pay players all of their legitimate winnings. Their actions are even more unacceptable that those few players who blatantly took advantage of their mistake.

 

[largeeyes]

Be interesting to see how this plays out.

Given that online casinos' sole purpose is to prey on the weak and addicted, I hope that Joyland does the right thing, admits all of the issues were of their own doing, and pays out players what is owed to them, in full.

That said, I wouldn't hold my breath. Plenty of online merchants have mistakenly posted products on their websites that are listed at a fraction of what they would normally be, obviously listed in error. Those "deals" get posted and distributed widely, everyone and their monkey buys 30 of them, and the merchant ultimately says "Look, no deal, that was an obvious error and we're simply not going to honor it." and returns everyone money and possibly throws a $5 gift certificate their way.

It's more complicated than that, though, as I'm sure the size of the withdrawals in question are also directly related to the problems with the comp system, as savvy players could essentially freeroll with the comp money and be much more aggressive than normal with their targets.

If I deposited $1,000 into a Scottrade account, a computer glitch turned it $1,000,000, and I immediately invested it in some volatile stock (knowing I'd never be on the hook for the non-existent $1,000,000 no matter what happened), and flipped it an hour later for a $50,000 profit, I wouldn't expect to be allowed to keep the profit when Scottrade eventually discovered the error. It wouldn't mean that I wouldn't try to flip it, or squawk when they took it away, but it's hard to argue that I'm somehow rightfully owed that $50,000 in "profits".

Like I said, though, hope everyone gets paid. Good luck.

The problem with your pricing error analogy is the matter of risk. If Amazon offers a new video game for 4.99 instead of 49.99 and you buy 20, you risk nothing with an enormous possible reward. In this matter, everyone risked at least $500.

 

[ScurvyDog]

The problem with your pricing error analogy is the matter of risk. If Amazon offers a new video game for 4.99 instead of 49.99 and you buy 20, you risk nothing with an enormous possible reward. In this matter, everyone risked at least $500.

Well, yes and no, depending on your level of savvy. If you were aware of the comp point glitch and had a large enough bankroll, your effective risk would be pretty close to zero. Your only practical risk would be that if the casino caught on they could possibly freeze your account, etc.

Again, I hope everyone gets paid.

 

[casinomike]

Hello.. I did win at Joyland, I signed up under the High Roller bonus as I like to bet big at playtech casinos. I was converting comp points to casino chips as I played, so I could give my chip stack a boost once in a while, I like to do this and used to like this comp perk about playtech caisnos

I don't know what this I'm reading about a computer glitch? I was playing with their non-cashable play bonus chips with allowed games as a high roller, I believe their terms said the comp conversion rate is adjusted depending on your player status. Well naturally a high roller enjoys a better converstion rate

it is not right that they can just confiscate my money because they decided after a week that they "had a glitch". Yet they kept everyones money who lost at their casino?

I think this is despicable and I hesitate to ever play at a Playtech casino again now because of this

 

[Vesuvio]

Well I'll just state that most of the civilized world disagrees with you. Sportsbooks offer incorrect odds on a relatively frequent basis, and without fail all wagers on these games are null and void and bets are returned without winnings. Same for mispricing on physical items, as another poster stated. Obviously this is different because they didn't refund anyone's money who lost, I haven't really thought through how that should play into it.

Well, living in the more or less civilised UK I'm not sure I'm in a minority. The overuse of "palpable error" by sportsbooks when something goes against them is treated with disgust by most gamblers. At least in the case of sportsbooks they do have a clause about "palpable error" in their terms. I'm not sure what the casino's relying on to renege on all these cash-ins - there's probably some "we can do whatever we like" term, but I doubt it holds much legal (or moral) weight.

In the UK you get various results when items are mispriced - often the companies have no choice but to supply them at the price quoted, and big companies often choose to anyway to avoid bad publicity (a similar case was an ATM for a UK bank giving out 20 notes instead of 10 notes - the bank didn't try to claim the money back).

I see your point, but I don't think it's nearly as clear cut as you make out. When it comes to the criticism of people taking advantage of the casino's mistake I completely disagree. This isn't a gentlemen's industry - the casinos are out to use whatever tricks they can to get an advantage over players. If they make mistakes or offer bonuses that are too generous they can incur serious losses. It's a high-risk industry, but obviously they think the rewards justify the risk.

 

[Rah]

While I can certainly understand the argument the casino makes, it does not entitle them to change logs and void winnings. Recalculating given comps and then paying out comps + winnings would be the least to expect. Voiding all winnings, even without comps, is outrageous if true.

 

[dubs22]

I also signed up for Joyland Casino on 8/5. I signed up for the High Roller bonus of deposit 500 and get 808 (non-cashable chips). The currency I played in was GBP.

I played jacks or better 4 play @ 20-40 GBP/pull for about 3 hours, and hit my first straight flush ever (a pat one, got the screen shot!). Needless to say I was pumped, and at the end of the day, I was somewhere around 4000 GBP and I cashed that minus the non-cashable chips I had, although after what I thought was the "high roller" comp rate I had signed up for had been converted, I was probably down some. It's hard to tell with my transaction history gone... I have the numbers in my notebook at work, I am sure.

At this point you know the rest of the story - transaction history altered, 500 initial deposit refunded, and CS not much help, save one phone call to my cell.

The girl that called me was very apologetic - she explained that what happened wasn't my fault, but that a "gang" of people placed tons of low risk bets and abused their comp system. I assumed she had looked at my play record because she wasn't blaming me or anything and I don't think 40 GBP VP pulls is "low-risk", although I'm sure we don't see eye to eye. I didn't really know how to approach the conversation with her. Obviously I would like to get paid but I am sure she cannot make that happen. I told her I was disappointed about the whole ordeal but realized she could not do anything, so I thanked her and hung up, and contemplated a next move.

A visit to playtech's site revealed an inquiry form, but as this thread has beat to death, it was down, so in the absence of seeking aid from the software manufacturer I decided to post here. I will wait until the CM returns from break in order to PAB, but here's to hoping that some of you will see this money, certainly those of you with substantial winnings over this comp fiasco. I now know what it feels like to see the balance light up, even if I won't see the money...

 

[TheBloke]

I've been following this thread with interest.

I played at JoyLand on the 5th. I deposited 500 for the 808 bonus, and busted. I then deposited more of my own money and eventually bust that too. I kept playing, despite being up nearly 5k at one point, because of the beneficial Comp Point rate which I assumed was a High Roller benefit that I would enjoy from then on.

So I'm down over 1000 - given that all winnings are void because of this 'mistake', surely all losses should be too? Will JoyLand refund this money, or is this a no-loss situation for the casino; take the losers, don't pay winners.

I assume it's the latter - just another case of a casino using any opportunity to steal.

In fact, how do we know that this wasn't actually a deliberate ploy - offer good comps so people keep gambling, then don't pay anyone who wins? Maybe this was a deliberate co-ordinated attempt by the casino to defraud its users. I would never have thought that any casino (besides the outright rogues) would ever stoop so low - but in absence of any positive news to the contrary, it now seems a possibility.

 

[Daffy]

TofC

I just visited Joylands website...

I trust everyone that has posted knows the bonus chips(808) are NONCASHABLE.

I saw no WR on the regular/inflated Loyalty/Comp chips...is this normal???

I don't play much Playtech but I believe RTG and MG casinos have WR on their Loyalty/Comp chips.

Thanks,

the dUck

 

[casinomike]

I just visited Joylands website...

I trust everyone that has posted knows the bonus chips(808) are NONCASHABLE.

I saw no WR on the regular/inflated Loyalty/Comp chips...is this normal???

I don't play much Playtech but I believe RTG and MG casinos have WR on their Loyalty/Comp chips.

Thanks,

the dUck

Believe me,I am aware the bonus is non cashable, in fact was automatically removed from my account when my first cashout. I made cashouts in exceess of ten thousand, the 800 bonus is insignificant in this case.

Also, I have played at several Playtech casinos and never have comp points had any kind of wagering requirement placed on them. Nor is this in Joyland's terms

I believe they offered their new "High Roller" players a generous comp conversion ratio, then decided they had been too generous.

I noticed during my play, that they had changed the conversion ratio for comp points from 100 = $1 to 150 = $1. Why would they change it so marginally if this was a glitch? sounds like they were adjusting things on the fly the whole time, maybe their plan was to freeze winnings all along and keep losing deposits, maybe to boost their cash flow as a new casino ?

 

[Josyck]

I think it is clear now what is our position and the position of the casino and the only thing we can do is to wait that an experienced person in this kind of conflicts like Casinomeister try to get a good solution for everybody.

 

[realwtfsup]

Well I'll just state that most of the civilized world disagrees with you. Sportsbooks offer incorrect odds on a relatively frequent basis, and without fail all wagers on these games are null and void and bets are returned without winnings.

They make ALL wagers null and void.

This case is completely differn't. Where are all the people who lost there deposits refunds?

 

[TrixSlice]

It is true. I remember one day being 100 points = 1. And the next day, or morning, it was 150. I remember 'cause I thought 'oh shucks, I should have cashed in my comps earlier!' I wish I knew this was going to be an ordeal, I would have taken screenshots!

 

[JohnGalt]

Yes the most curious part of this is the fact that it went on for over a week. That is difficult to understand if it was truly a mistake. The fact that they adjusted it is another very odd thing. However, it's hard to understand how this could be some kind of scheme. Obviously it would be nice to have some kind of response from the management there.

Now, obviously they owe in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this, so I think there is no possibility of everyone getting their winnings because they obviously cannot afford to pay them. I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

 

[elscrabinda]

This thread makes me feel sick. Where do Playtech get off on giving liscenses to jerks like this? I assumed that one of the reasons Bryan made up with them was that they would put a stop to these cowboy setups. I'm glad that most people are planning on fighting this one although I was very disheartened by the poster who was saying how nice the CS women was when she was telling him that her employers were going to steal 4000 from him. Its up to you of course, but I know I wouldn't back down like that.

For the record, and I hate to give this place any positive publicity (luckily it'll get swamped by more horror stories), I have just been paid on a withdrawal, albeit a very small one. This was after cashing out $40 worth of comp points as well. I had already wiped out the first deposit bonus (in record time- 14 $100 bets to lose $1300).

Good luck everyone

 

[thelawnet]

Yes the most curious part of this is the fact that it went on for over a week. That is difficult to understand if it was truly a mistake. The fact that they adjusted it is another very odd thing. However, it's hard to understand how this could be some kind of scheme. Obviously it would be nice to have some kind of response from the management there.

Now, obviously they owe in the hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this, so I think there is no possibility of everyone getting their winnings because they obviously cannot afford to pay them. I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

Do you work for these guys JohnGalt?

Anyway, in life if a business can't afford to pay, they cannot say 'Sorry we won't pay', they can either pay or go bust. In this case I am sure the business has at least a million dollars, as they consist of about half-a-dozen casinos.

Secondly, as you say they offered this comp rate for a week. 4% comps means a 3.5% player edge or less. This is good for players, but really, are they going to tell the players playing slots the week before, at a 5% or greater *casino* edge, that they are going to get their money back, because it's unfair that they should have the edge? They offer the games they choose to offer and must stand by the results.

'Legitimate' winnings is meaningless, as people who were ahead would have continued wagering due to the generous comps policy.

E.g., if I signup to a casino, and hit a royal flush, I'd probably cashout straight away. However if they are offering 4% comps, I'd keep on playing. Minus the comps, I'd likely lose money. But if they hadn't offered the comps I would have cashed out already anyway!

 

[ElDuderino]

The last post has moved me to post in this thread. I play VP pretty big, and I hit a $20,000 royal flush at Joyland!!! I was going to quit after this, but I definitely like to play. Just the previous day, I busted a signup bonus and wagered nearly $400,000 before doing so at another Playtech casino... man, I play too much video poker for my own good.

Following is the text of my CM PAB. Please note: My username that I submitted the PAB under is different than this one. I have zero trust in any online casino right now, thanks to Joyland, those gutless thieves:

"Dear Bryan,

I am writing about a problem I'm having with Joyland Casino (Playtech software, Casino Pays group). Let me just say that whenever I play at a casino, I do my due dilligence and make sure I know exactly what the permitted games and wagering requirements for a bonus are. I stick to reputable casinos/groups, and I've never been shafter, not once. So I'm *really* pissed right now.

I played at Joyland for the first time under a $500 deposit, $808 bonus promotion they had. I lost both... no problem. Livechat offered me a $1000 deposit, $500 bonus for a second deposit (which wasn't very generous, given that $300 + $400 is standard for the second deposit bonus). Well, playing $100/spin Jacks or Better, I hit a royal flush pretty much right off the bat!!! I was enjoying myself, so I played a ton. I'd guess at least half a million in wagering.

Since it was a pretty big win, I took a screenshot of the pending cashout screen and of livechat saying that I was good to go to cashout, and the money would be processed to Neteller within six days. Well, I was shocked when three days later, they deposited $1,500 into my Neteller, withdrew it, and then deposited it again!!! They didn't say anything about the $xx,000+ I had won, and they froze my account!!! Nobody answers at their (866) number, and I can't access livechat since my account is frozen

Here is a copy, verbatim, of a letter I sent to [email protected]:

"Hello,

I am going to make this e-mail as concise and polite as I can. I recently deposited at your casino, lost all my money, and redeposited. I was frustrated at losing the first time, so I was betting big ($100 a spin) at Jacks or Better video poker, and I was fortunate enough to hit a royal flush! Thanks largely to this $xx,000 win, I cashed out over $xx,000.

Well, imagine my surprise when I received a cashout for only $1,500. To add insult to injury, when I logged in to check my pending withdrawals, I found my account was locked. That makes me angry, and the fact that I haven't been e-mailed any explanation of what's going on makes me even angrier.

I gave you guys *tons* of action, more than met the wagering requirements, and did nothing wrong. I don't know if Joyland has a poor reputation in the online gaming world, but I'm going to do some research now. I will also be reporting you to any online gaming watchdog groups I can find if this issue isn't handled in a manner which I find satisfactory.

xxx"

Bryan, please help me resolve this. If you can work your CM magic on this one I shall sing your praises throughout the land.

Thanks,
xxx"

I have NEVER been this pissed in my life. They falsified withdrawals logs. They don't answer their phones, at least not within the first eight rings. Their livechat plays dumb when you ask them.

I hit an f'n $20k royal flush in the first 15 minutes of play, yet I continued to play. I hope the Meister can help us all out, because if I don't get paid, I am going to see to it that this group's whole reputation gets ruined. I hope all you people are as pissed as me.

"This aggression won't stand, man!" Kudos to those who get that movie quote. Remember, it's only El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing.

-The Dude

 

[JohnGalt]

Do you work for these guys JohnGalt?

Anyway, in life if a business can't afford to pay, they cannot say 'Sorry we won't pay', they can either pay or go bust. In this case I am sure the business has at least a million dollars, as they consist of about half-a-dozen casinos.

Secondly, as you say they offered this comp rate for a week. 4% comps means a 3.5% player edge or less. This is good for players, but really, are they going to tell the players playing slots the week before, at a 5% or greater *casino* edge, that they are going to get their money back, because it's unfair that they should have the edge? They offer the games they choose to offer and must stand by the results.

'Legitimate' winnings is meaningless, as people who were ahead would have continued wagering due to the generous comps policy.

E.g., if I signup to a casino, and hit a royal flush, I'd probably cashout straight away. However if they are offering 4% comps, I'd keep on playing. Minus the comps, I'd likely lose money. But if they hadn't offered the comps I would have cashed out already anyway!

No I do not work for a casino, although of course everyone accuses everyone else of that first thing whenever someone doesn't side 100% with the players. I really don't think Joyland is under the same management as those other casinos, because those casinos have good support and don't do crap like this. If we were talking about the carnival group they probably could pay out. I wasn't saying that excused them, just that whether they'd pay out was a moot point because obviously they can't pay. So they could go bust, but people still wouldn't get their money.

I agree that these are very suspicious circumstances with the length of time we're talking about, etc., as I stated earlier. You statement about slots and unfairness is frankly not relevant and not well thought out. Of course players frequently have the edge, that does not make it "unfair". Fairness has nothing to do with it. If it was a MISTAKE on the casino's part though, they have a right, imo, to void the wagers that took place during that time period, depending I guess on the T&C they have. It's exactly as if their software had an error and was paying out at the completely wrong rate.

If on the other hand this was their deliberate policy and people simply took advantage of it as anyone would take advantage of a good deal, then they should go bust trying to pay people. However, I thought it was a mistake and that is why I personally did not play there all week making $1000's.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I think what they should do is refund EVERYONE's deposit who played there during this error and pay out legitimate winnings on a case-by-case basis.

Why? Did you play there and lose?

A lot more facts seem to have come out since the last time I checked this thread.

First and most alarming to me is that Joyland casino has modified transaction logs in such an outright manner with no real explination for it. I have personally never seen transaction logs modified, and that alone should be enough to convince the public that the casino was attempting to defraud it's players. What would you do if your bank modified without your consent your deposit history to reflect less money being put into your account?! Someone would see the inside of a federal prison.

Secondly this whole rubbish with comp points. It's extremely clear to me that if they had to presence of mind to modified the comp conversion rate from 100 pts. = $1 to 150 pts. = $1, they have lost all their credibility to the extent of claiming it was a "glitch."

On the topic of "Glitch," this was not a glitch. A glitch is when I cash in 350 Comp points and have $1,085,349.00 added to my balance. That is a glitch. The comp conversion rate is a specific configuration. Whether it was misconfigured at this casino or not is immeterial, someone input that rate into the backend of the software, and the casino not honoring that rate is absolutely inexcusable.

Let me bring to light some of the highlights from the Joyland Casino Website:

Moreover, Joyland Casino guarantees its commitment to fair gaming. Its professional, supportive, and secure environment allows for a winning experience.

Obviously not. If this was infact the case, they don't "allow for a winning environment." Ironically they have declined to pay all of these people for exactly the oposite reason! "Ummm sorry, we can't pay you because our casino there for a couple of days was actually a 'winning environment'"

For players convenience, Joyland Casino offers built-in games and financial gaming logs for checking previously played gaming results. History and detailed information is always readily available for the players convenience as well.

This was funny to me, because it's really not avaliable to those who have been screwed out of their money and been locked out of the casino now is it?

it goes on to further say ...

Game history transactions include the start of the initial game, bet and win amounts, detailed game results and more. Financial transaction histories, which display all cash-outs and deposits, can also be accessed anytime while online.

Oh yeah?! Which gaming and transaction histories are those? The ones that have been modified by the casino? Lotta good that's going to do the players.

Every client is important to us, from high rollers to clients that play for fun.
We value and respect your patronage.
Please feel free to contact us any time by phone or email,
As it is of the utmost importance to us that you feel completely at ease
and safe with all your dealings at Joyland Casino.

Ok then here's your chance to prove it. Five bucks says that if you payout all the rightfull withdrawals to all these players, you won't hear anyone question the reliability of your casino for a long long time. Remember when 888 paid out all that money on the roulette promo? When was the last time you caught someone saying that Casino-on-Net wasn't gunna pay.

I mean, the real question I have is why is a comp point ratio a good enough reason to void winnings? It's not anyone who played at the casino's fault that Joyland screwed up when configuring their software (assuming it wasn't on purpose as some other posters have suggested.) They screwed up when they failed to change it back (and when they did change it, didn't even cut half the player's odds.) They screwed up when they modified player's transaction histories. They screwed up when they refunded deposits and then rewithdrew them from Neteller without authorization only to refund them again (as has been mentioned in other threads about this topic elsewhere.) They screwed up. This is a blatant case of player's being defrauded.

And as a final note, to those who might suggest that players playing under a favorable comp conversion rate I would ask you to draw a fair comparison. I don't remember off the top of my head when MegaJacks (a Playtech progressive Jacks or Better video poker machine) breaks over 100% return, I think it's somewhere around $1500 or so. I would wonder, should all the players who only play that machine when it has favorable odds be denied their winnings? I mean, if you're only playing that video poker machine when it's over 100% return, you MUST be doing it just to line your own pockets! I say we void all their winnings too.

The Gunslinger

 

[thelawnet]

I really don't think Joyland is under the same management as those other casinos, because those casinos have good support and don't do crap like this.

I would dispute that these guys have good support, from personal experience at Monaco Gold.

Anyway, Joyland terms page:

JOYLAND CASINO END-USER AGREEMENT

PLEASE READ CAREFULLY THE FOLLOWING LEGALLY BINDING AGREEMENT BETWEEN CROWN SOLUTION GAMING LTD., UNDER THE BRAND NAME OF JOYLAND CASINO AND YOU.
...
Online Casino Crown Solution Gaming Limiteds internet gaming system on the Website and related services and gaming activities as offered and listed at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

including but not limited to, online casino and/or online bingo and/or any other games, where applicable;

And here's Carnival Casino's terms page:

PLEASE READ THE AGREEMENT CAREFULLY AND MAKE SURE YOU FULLY UNDERSTAND ITS CONTENTS. IF YOU HAVE ANY DOUBTS ABOUT YOUR RIGHTS AND OBLIGATIONS RESULTING FROM THE ACCEPTANCE OF THIS AGREEMENT, PLEASE CONSULT A LEGAL ATTORNEY IN YOUR JURISDICTION.

1. DEFINITIONS
The following words and terms, when used with this agreement, shall have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise.

Online Casino Crown Solution Limiteds internet gaming system on the Website and related services and gaming activities as offered and listed at www.carnivalcasino.com including but not limited to, online casino and/or online bingo and/or Online Casino and/or any other games, where applicable;

Or even the 'About us' pages

Carnival Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd,
a registered company located in Antigua.

and

Joyland Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

It's the same company, same liabilities, same profits, etc.


also

Monaco Gold Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

and

Club Dice Casino is owned and operated by Crown Solution Gaming Ltd.,
a registered company located in Antigua.

plus USA casino & New York casino

If we were talking about the carnival group they probably could pay out.

Evidently we are.