Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[GrandMaster]

Don't forget the

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. Yet another case of a casino screwup that cost them money which they paid out.

It is a great story, I read about it in Blackjack Autumn by Barry Meadows. It is surprising that it took so long for the casino to figure out what was going on. It must have been odd that that a casino where $5 bettor were high rollers was suddenly full of people betting $100, who were literally winning all the chips the casino had. Even afterwards the manager blamed a gang of card counters when this promotion could be exploited by simple basic strategy. The sad thing is that if it had been properly managed, it could have been a good promotion. For example, Harrods Casino offers promotions that if you win 5 hands in a row, you get the smallest stake credited to your account as a bonus, which gives a tidy advantage to the player, but the total bonus is capped at 100.

Joylands' management must have noticed that their turnover was vastly increased, yet they were losing money, but their only reaction was to reduce the comp rates. I have to assume that they evaluated the situation and they were happy with the new comp rate. After that point they have no right to complain.

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

If you want a bank analogy, then imagine a bank that offers 5% interest per diem, instead of 5% per annum. People large amounts and just withdraw the 5% interest every day. After a few days, management notices that the bank is losing money, so they reduce the interest rate to 3% per diem. After a week they lock the accounts and call the customers thieves.

Let me quote Barry Meadows on casino errors (Blackjack Autumn, pp. 120-121):
"The moral code in the gambling world states that if the dealer makes a mistake against you, point out the mistake immediately. If he makes a mistake in your favor - overpays you, calls a loss a push, fails to collect the proper insurance money - mum's the word. Dealer mistakes are rare, but it is gauche to tell a dealer about a mistake that helps a player. A priest who would trudge 5 miles in the snow to return a $1 bill to a supermarket clerk who gave him too much change will, at the blackjack table, overlook a $1 error in his favor. As he should. After all, it's the casinos' goal to shake every last player by the ankles to get every last penny, and they don't have much guilt over that."

I must have lost several hundreds dollars at the blackjack table at various online casinos through pressing the wrong button. No casino has ever offered to refund my money, although it must be obvious that I did not mean to hit all those hard 17s, 18s, 19s and 20s. It would be nice if I could keep my money if I win, but get a refund if I bust.

 

[ElDuderino]

This thread is rapidly closing in on 10,000 views. I'd guess that, what, 2500 unique people have seen this thread, minimum. Joyland is getting so many chances to rectify this situation before CM gets involved, yet does nothing. I'm just glad we have a champion in Bryan. I have NO DOUBT that after he sees how poorly Joyland is acting, he will choose to side with the players in this argument.

I'll tell you one thing. Even if Joyland doesn't GAFF about this fiasco, Monaco Gold, New York, and all the other Playtech/Crown casinos that are losing business because of Joyland's behavior will eventually force Joyland to step up to the plate. Of this I have no doubt.

 

[GrandMaster]

The top hit for Joyland casino on Google is the thread at WinnerOnline, the second one is the casino's own website. I am sure this is not good for business. Surprisingly, this thread is much further down.

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

So you have an account here, and then you created a second account solely so that you could call other CM forum members liars and thieves while you remained anonymous.

No, he said he wish to, there is a difference. If you're going to stick your nose into a conversation and insult somebody else, at least get your quote right.

 

[Jay]

No, he said he wish to, there is a difference. If you're going to stick your nose into a conversation and insult somebody else, at least get your quote right.

Hey fool! If I wanted my posting name from Bonuswhores or Casinomeister or RGP used here, I would not have made this account. I made it because I knew it was going to be 50 against 1.

Maybe you should take your own advice.

The shill said he already has an account at BW, here at CM, and he posts at RGP too. He made a second account so he could attack people without future repercussions in his "real" accounts.

 

[TrixSlice]

and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino.

This is the worst lie of them all. So the non existant portal changed transaction logs?

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

Maybe you should take your own advice.

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

I wish to use the forums in the future under my real name, especially this one, but knew I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread. You have proven this in your zeal to match the IP's.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

 

[thelawnet]

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

He can *state* whatever he wishes. That doesn't change the fact that his behaviour is *extremely* odd. He seems to know exactly what happened at the casino, and intricate technical details of the operation of Playtech casinos, which would be nigh on impossible for him to have if he wasn't a shill.

His persistence and venom in defending Joyland is something that is very strange as well. Have you ever seen anyone defending any casino in this manner before, just because they felt the casino was being taken advantage of?

Bizarre value judgements - players who have cashed in comps are 'thieves', etc. I can't see any person behaving in this manner, and going in so hard to defend Joyland, unless they were in some way connected to the Joyland.

And the fact that the player claims he is protecting his alter ego identity by creating a new one here? Again, doesn't make sense. An existing forum member would have far greater credibility, and words would mean much more than some strange newly registered user.

We do not know who this person is for sure, but to my mind it seems almost impossible that some onlooker could get as worked up about things as this guy has, without him actually having a direct involvement with that casino.

He displays an incredible devotion to Joyland casino, sufficient that he can redefine 'cashing in comp points' as 'theft', and has made at least four statements that could ONLY have been made by someone on the inside there. So on the one hand we have an anonymous person claiming to be something, and on the other we have very strong evidence that he actually works for Joyland casino. And you think we should believe the anonymous poster?

I could accept, barely, that someone could make a dozen posts simply defending one casino for its screwup, but this and the obvious inside knowledge about what the casino has and hasn't done, and how it operates?

It's too much for me.

 

[Jay]

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

Yes, exactly.

But most forums won't let you make multiple accounts just so that you can make inflammatory statements without repercussions in your other accounts, just because you "wish" to keep those accounts clean. In fact, that would usually be grounds for immediate banning.

I have no problem believing that the poster is "more knowledgable than I think". In fact, he seems to have far more knowledge of the details of maintaining a Playtech casino than anyone I've ever heard of. How odd. I've personally played at dozens of Playtech casinos in my life, and I'm a VIP at more than one, and I wouldn't have a clue about what logs are maintained on what servers, etc.

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

In fact, he seems to have far more knowledge of the details of maintaining a Playtech casino than anyone I've ever heard of.

Which would indicate that he is possibly a former casino manager, or at the very least, an employee... Possibly of Joyland, but that doesn't necessarily make him responsible for their current problems.

We shouldn't castrate him until we know for sure, right?

 

[Jay]

Which would indicate that he is possibly a former casino manager, or at the very least, an employee... Possibly of Joyland, but that doesn't necessarily make him responsible for their current problems.

We shouldn't castrate him until we know for sure, right?

He called me a thief (I'm a player owed money by Joyland, so therefore I'm a thief and I should be added to CM's "evil players" list). He started it.

He's probably not *responsible* for their problems even if he is a Joyland employee. But if he's an employee of any Playtech casino (especially Joyland), he's the worst kind of liar and that casino would be one I'd consider essentially dishonest.

Which is why I'd like to know, one way or another. Nothing else to talk about here, since neither Playtech nor Joyland have responded to my complaints, even just to email me the info they posted here.

 

[JimMorrison]

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

That's actually the funniest post I've ever read.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just a quick interjection here. This is a moderated board, and I am usually in the background keeping an eye on things. There is no conclusive evidence that qazwsx is connected to Joyland - if he were, you'd know about it by now. IMO this is a moot issue unless I'm convinced to think otherwise. Let's try not to dwell on this matter - it's become a side issue. Thanks!

 

[jetset]

I agree - the heat on Q-???? is detracting from the central issue here - it's a sideshow (albeit an entertaining one) that serves only to indicate that the casino *may* be less than honest in having a cloaked affiliate or employee defending their actions here.

These Joyland guys have screwed up their credibility big time, and this poster prancing around the public thread here at present is only exacerbating their problems.

Joyland screwed up on the comp points; did not have the smarts to realise it for a week or more; went in and adjusted the system to a better level for themselves but it was still a screw-up, and they then unilaterally tried to blame players, for whom they have shown absolutely no respect and disqualified winnings on what looks like a blanket basis (or at best on those players they *thought* had *abused* them)

It is remarkable that they could think that they could get away with simply returning deposits TO WINNERS.

Their communications systems either didn't or wouldn't work as they ignored the stiffed players, and only when they realised they were in a world of the proverbial on Casinomiester and elsewhere did they start trying to reverse the situation by agreeing to review the cases of those players smart enough to use the fora.

The comps mess at the root of this dispute was their own mistake. It wasn't the software although they tried at one stage to blame that. It was their own people who messed up imo....and they are now trying to lumber the players with the bill.

We know that there are ample precedents from both land and Internet operations on how to handle this honourably. CON has on two occasions shown the best route - take your lumps and learn from the experience.

It is not the players' responsibility to save a casino from its own incompetence.

If the speculation that this online casino was part of the Empire Online deal is right, then you can bet that EO are not too happy with this situation right now.

 

[jetset]

P.S. And don't forget the tampered transaction logs, too!

 

[The Gunslinger]

It is not the players' responsibility to save a casino from its own incompetence.

Honestly. I think this right here is the heart of the issue. Very well said.

This one sentence should have been the beginning and the end of the debate regarding who is responsible for this comp point issue.

Everything beyond that is either Joyland refusing to pay and covering it up or not, there is no backpedeling the comp fiasco onto the players.

The Gunslinger

 

[Jay]

You're right, it's just a distraction (though the evidence seems pretty clear to me). I just don't like being called a thief by an anoymous troll, when my only crime is to NOT GET PAID BY JOYLAND. They steal my money and I get called a thief.

But since nobody is willing to even acknowledge me (over a week now, waiting for my "72 hour response" from Playtech, even after a second query to them, and Joyland is completely silent, refusing even to email me the bogus explanations they posted here), I don't have much else to do on the topic other than wait for a PAB resolution.

 

[scrollock]

the thing that has been puzzling me, was the change in the points coversion rate of 100 points to 150 points per dollar, which gives player returns of 4% and 2.66% respectively.

now particular attention has been drawn to a players or players that were playing roulette, now roulette has an edge of 2.7%, which is pretty close to changed comp rate of 2.66% is this a coincidence?

or is it because they seen what was going on with the roulette and changed the comp point system to take this into account.

hence they were happy with their comp policy till they seen that it could be taken advantage of by playing roulette, thus they took the decision to change to comp point policy by the minimun to neutralise roulette.

is this what happened

did something along the lines of the following coversation happen

casino manager: hows our comp points policy doing?

casino employee: not very well, some guy is making a fortune by covering all the options on roulette.

casino manager: well change the comp points conversion rate so that he makes a slight loss on each spin.

casino employee: shouldn't i make the comp coversion rate a bit higher than that?

casino manager: no!!, we want the least impact on our original comp policy as possible.

if as we know that the original comps policy was what was intended, then the situation above certainly fits the facts as to what happened subsequently.

this kind of stupidity is not unknown in the world of online casinos judging by the amout of them that still exclude roulette, even new ones that have no history of bonus abuse, where the WR is so high that its impossible to abuse the promos by using this game.

 

[GrandMaster]

now particular attention has been drawn to a players or players that were playing roulette, now roulette has an edge of 2.7%, which is pretty close to changed comp rate of 2.66% is this a coincidence?

or is it because they seen what was going on with the roulette and changed the comp point system to take this into account.

hence they were happy with their comp policy till they seen that it could be taken advantage of by playing roulette, thus they took the decision to change to comp point policy by the minimun to neutralise roulette.

I was wondering about this, too.

 

[jetset]

You're right, it's just a distraction (though the evidence seems pretty clear to me). I just don't like being called a thief by an anoymous troll, when my only crime is to NOT GET PAID BY JOYLAND. They steal my money and I get called a thief.

But since nobody is willing to even acknowledge me (over a week now, waiting for my "72 hour response" from Playtech, even after a second query to them, and Joyland is completely silent, refusing even to email me the bogus explanations they posted here), I don't have much else to do on the topic other than wait for a PAB resolution.

From what I have seen I have to agree that Playtech Disputes has not done an acceptable job of handling this crisis. Joyland have bungled it from the start, ignoring their irate players' complaints, so between the two of them I can understand why guys like Jay are pissed.

Here's a suggestion to pass some time, Jay - what about contacting the licensing jurisdiction? Here's an email:

Kaye MacDonald

director@antiguagaming.gov.ag

Business Information:
Company: Antigua Gaming Authority
Phone: (268) 481 3300
Web Page:

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Ms. MacDonald has been fairly high profile with her claims that this licensing jurisdiction is not just a flag of convenience - let's see how she reacts to a few player complaints about bad casino practice and uncommunicative conduct toward players with complaints?

 

[JohnGalt]

I'm hesitant to post this because of all the heat I've taken over at BW for my position here, but you guys have actually changed my mind. My initial reaction when I saw the comp rate was that it was a mistake that would be fixed, and I think the fact that I thought it was so obvious colored my opinion.

I was going to wait for an official response from Joyland, but the fact they haven't given any explanation so far I think shows that they do not have any amazing excuse for the mistake they made. If they had one, it would have come out immediately. It's just too hard to believe that they made some numerical error and then allowed it to continue for a whole week, even changing it partway through that time period. In fact, even if that was the case, I think the duration of the error makes them clearly at fault. If you have a policy running for an entire week, people are going to start relying on it. It would be like if a sportsbook offered bad odds on one team over and over again for a whole week, paying people out as they won, and then later tried to retroactively take back everyone's winnings for that entire week.


Combine that with the fact that we have received no good explanation for the mistake, or any explanation of the altered logs, and that innocent people still haven't gotten their money back, and we're talking serious wrongdoing. This casino has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Didn't Empire buy these guys? I wonder how happy they would be to find they own a bunch of rogued casinos. Now I kind of regret not taking advantage of this.

 

[Daffy]

Roulette

I have to admit that math was not my best subject in school...

I take it the player was playing european roulette (no 00)...

He bet 500 red...500 black...30 zero...

This would be 1000@4%(comp)=$40-$30(zero)=$10 profit per roll until the rate was changed to 2.67% (rough est because zero pays more when it hits)

100-120 rolls/hr=$1000-$1200/hr

Anybody know the timeline between the change from 4% to 2.67% ???

********************************************************

Note to Q....

Namecalling is highly overrated as a debate tool...it usually alienates your opposition to the degree that any valid points you might make are missed.

the dUck

 

[casinomike]

what about the players who didn't even touch the roullete wheel ?

I played a little video poker and a lot of blackjack. I'm sure if joyland went over my play log in detail they'd see I made so many basic strategy mistakes in my play they'd see I was seriously gambling and not certainly not using some math equation to beat their roullete game or something

still never been called or emailed by joyland, I guess I'm lucky I heard at least something here on these forums from joyland, but havent heard anything good

 

[caruso]

How much money is involved? One poster tallied the reports in this thread, and came up with approximately sixty thousand. Gunslinger on the other hand, who would appear to be in the know on this one, quoted five hundred thousand - which would suggest there is a LOT more involved than has been accounted for at Casinomeister.

An actual figure?

 

[TrixSlice]

He bet 500 red...500 black...30 zero...

This would be 1000@4%(comp)=$40-$30(zero)=$10 profit per roll until the rate was changed to 2.67% (rough est because zero pays more when it hits)

100-120 rolls/hr=$1000-$1200/hr

Joyland has a $15 max bet on Roulette. And even if they have changed it since then, I highly doubt you could bet much higher than a hundred. I rarely see a casino with high roulette limits.

How much money is involved?

Casino Meister quoted so far 111,000. From that, I doubt it's over 200k. I'm sure he'll release an updated number as the days pass and more winners (losers) find this thread on their quest for Joylands respectability.