Interwetten confiscating winnings

[Roar]

Weaker than water.

You wouldn't mind so much if they took the time to properly address the basis on which respective players' complaint was based. Instead they simply spew forth the regurgitated version of "facts" as parrotted by Interwetten. And it's taken them 9 months to do that?

Justice delayed is justice denied. Malta LGA have a growing credibility problem - none believes for a moment this decsion was reached in any manner that could be described as fair and equitable.

If my memory serves me correctly, the promotion had run the week-end prior and bonus monies paid out without equivocation. Malta LGA fail to address this piece of evidence.

Agree with VWM above. The T+Cs do not allow anyone to take a walk back in time. Terminate, suspend or cancel. All terms that lack retrospectivity.

Very poor form all round.

..

 

[Roar]

Here are the subject T+Cs posted earlier in the thread for reference against the decision delivered by Malta LGA. I re-post them as I think it is quite significant the slabs of T+Cs that Malta LGA fail to mention or reference in their decision.

"Sunday Cashback Madness

How it works:

For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back.

Terms and Conditions:

This promotion is valid to all Interwetten Casino Real Money customers.
Promotion days in February 2008 are:
Sunday, 03.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 10.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 17.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET
Sunday, 24.02.2008 00:00 CET bis 23:59 CET

This promotion is subject to Interwetten Casino standard rules, terms and conditions.

To qualify for the cashback bonus you must make a transfer of funds from your Sportsbook real money account in to Casino chips and wager at least EUR 100,00 on the respective promotion day at Interwetten Online Casino.

For each EUR 100,00 loss at the Interwetten Online Casino, the customer will get EUR 10,00 Chips credited to his Interwetten Casino account.

The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cashback Bonus.

Interwetten Casino reserves the right to refuse all promotions and bonuses to players who do not comply with this condition.

Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion or these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures.

We will remove prize credits from the account of any member who fails to comply with any of the above conditions.

Management decision is final. No discussion will be entered into."

As I recalled, the promotion DID run the week-end previous, and operated in the same fashion until Interwetten realised some heavy losses.

The identical previous week-end promotion does not rate a mention in the Malta LGA deliberations. I wonder why?

.

 

[Ferretktf]

This is a complete and utter farce. I do not believe they have looked at the facts of the case at all?

I have digested the statement and have some comments to make on it -- points it seems they have not considered when reaching judgement.


Quote:
The Lotteries and Gaming Authority (LGA) has investigated the matter you raised with regards to the "Sunday Cash back Madness" promotion held in February 2008 by Interwetten Malta Ltd.

The LGA received a report on 12th February 2008 from Interwetten that a technical error had occurred on their back office systems where the Bonus was being credited immediately to the player and not after the promotion time expired as it was supposed to.

This was not a technical error. It worked exactly the way that the promoters had designed. It may well have been a misjudgement, but if so it was a human mistake, not a technical error, but because IW terms and conditions allow for technical errors, they have claimed incorrectly it was so, and it seems the LGA has swallowed this line without actually checking the facts. The system made no technical mistake, it followed the instructions - which matched the wording of the promotion.


Quote:
Many players discovered this flaw and took advantage by transferring the bonus straight over to real money.

Incorrect. This insinuates players knowingly and cynically transferring money out. No transfers took place. The bonus was credited direct to real money without any action on behalf of the players.


Quote:
At the end of the game players were requesting cash outs for the balance on their account

Incorrect, I did not request any cash-out at the time. My account was locked the following day.


Quote:
Interwetten Malta Ltd. cancelled this promotion immediately upon realizing the bonus was not being credited after the promotion time expired.

Incorrect. they also ran it the previous weekend on 3rd February, so this was not immediately cancelled. They must have won money that first weekend so they repeated the promotion. It was cancelled after the second weekend when they realised they had lost money on that weekend's promotion.


Quote:
The Authority ensured that Interwetten have adjusted player's accounts by removing the bonus's that were incorrectly credited and any winnings derived from these bonuses in question.

This is a very poor acceptance of what IW have done here. Once the very first bonus was paid, all future winnings were effectively being derived from that bonus - hence all winnings were removed ... which is what they did.


Quote:
The bonus removed from your player account should not have been available to you to be cashed out or transferred to your account balance until the promotion day had expired

As per previous answer I neither cashed out or transferred


Quote:
The players accounts were set back to the beginning of the promotion i.e. 00:00 CET February 9th 2008.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that this only took place for WINNING accounts. anybody who lost on the day did not get refunded. Therefore IW kept all their winnings and paid out no-one thus ensuring they made a significant profit from this playing day. This cannot be right.


Quote:
After this correction it was as if you had not played at all on that day (with the exception of real money pay-ins).

NOT TRUE. they also confiscated all of my COMP POINTS. Not just the ones that I had earned on that day, but also all of the ones that i had built up over the previous year and not cashed in. This amounted to over 100, and this is theft, pure and simple.


Quote:
Winnings were maintained only if it was clear that they derived from real money stakes.

As per previous comment, this could not happen as as soon as one bonus payment had been made, all future play could be theoretically linked back to that. So no winnings were maintained and IW had to make no payouts for the day in question.


Quote:
One of the conditions set out was as follows:

"The bonus will be credited to the customers account on one of the following days. There are no wager requirements for the Cash back Bonus."

This does not state "the next day". In fact no days were listed so that makes this term completely meaningless. This was a multi-day promotion which started on 3rd February. 10th February therefore was "one of the following days"


Quote:
The Bonus Terms and Conditions also state:

"Interwetten may cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion of these terms and conditions at any point and for any reason, including for technical reasons such as and not limited to computer viruses, bugs, tampering or technical failures."

I concede that they can cancel, terminate, modify or suspend the promotion "for any reason" (including fraudulent ones it seems). But it does not say that they can take this action retrospectively on play that has already been completed.
This promotion started at 0.01am. They had the opportuntiy to stop it at 01:00; 04:00, 10:00 or any other time and limit their liabilities as a result. They did not. They let it run for the whole day. Why? to ensure that they had to pay out NOBODY, while ensuring that they kept ALL the winnings from losers.


Quote:
Interwetten advised the Authority the bonus was credited permanently during the bonus period, generating incorrect winnings. Therefore, customers received refunds which were higher than their losses instead of 10% refund of the total amount lost.

The promotion never mentioned TOTAL amount lost. it said, and I quote.... "For every EUR 100,00 you lose at the Interwetten Online Casino, you get EUR 10,00 back"... intimating it would be made on the spot, immediately after EACH AND EVERY individual loss


Quote:
Interwetten Malta Ltd. has deducted the unjustified bonuses and unjustified winnings from these bonuses only from your player account which you were not entitled to in the first place. Interwetten Malta Ltd. has acted in accordance with the Terms and Conditions which were readily available to you and which you agreed to play and abide by

Under the published promotion terms I was entitled to those bonuses - they were not unjustified.


Quote:
The Authority finds Interwetten Malta Ltd. were also entitled to have removed any winnings you may have acquired due to the bonuses being incorrectly credited.

In otherwords the Authority supports IW keeping any winnings from losers, while refusing to pay any winnings to winners - as per my comments earlier


Quote:
In conclusion the Authority has identified a technical problem did occur on the Interwetten Malta Ltd. system where the bonus was incorrectly credited prior to midnight on the Sunday. It is clear from records obtained players took advantage of this upon realizing and knowingly transferred bonuses expecting to receive the bonus as winnings in cash outs at the end of the game play. Interwetten Malta Ltd. have acted in accordance with the Terms and Conditions as posted on their web site and the Authority is satisfied in the manner Interwetten Malta Ltd. have managed this incident.

The conclusions are flawed. This was NOT a TECHNICAL error. I did NOT transfer any bonuses. I did NOT make any cash out


Quote:

Therefore the Authority wishes to advise this LGA complaint case is closed.

It appears that this is a complete whitewash

I have sent the above back to the LGA asking if they can respond to my specific points explaining just why they feel Interwetten was correct in the action it has taken.

 

[DiamondGeezer]

VWM makes a very good point about how all accounts were treated the same. Even if you accept the IW argument about the bonus being paid at a later date there still would have been accounts that never dipped into bonus funds. If you started with a large balance and won form the outset then the only dispute would be over the timing of the bonus payment.

As it happens I started out with a four figure deposit but did lose heavily. So even though I don't agree with the 'next day bonus argument' I could accept that I may not be entiltled to much if it was shown I did dip into bonus funds. But players that won from the outset would never have had this sitution and the only argument would be over the timing of the refund. It makes no difference to a winning player if they got their refund on the same day or a later day.

I have never accepted this next day bonus argument because they ran the promotion on the first week with the same situation. So what are they saying exactly - that they ran the promotion for two weeks and only noticed on the second week? Or was the real reason that they made a profit on the first week so were happy to let it run again?

The bottom line is that if they made a mistake and failed to spot it for two weeks they should be made to honour it. I don't know the total amount they lost on the second week but I believe they made about 3m profit last year. Very likely the amount lost as a % of profit was small.

The promotion did give a player advantage but it was still possible many players could have lost on the second week and IW could have made a profit then. I doubt they would have cancelled the promotion then.

Part of the judgement mentions that IW meant to refund players on total losses and not 10 for every 100 lost. If that was the case why did they state in their terms that 10 would be refunded for EVERY 100 lost and then they set their software up to do exactly that? Maybe they could argue it was a bad translation but it is impossible to refute that they set their own software to refund 10 for every 100 lost. And then they called it 'Sunday Cashback Madness'.

Make your own minds up. Who do you think is in the right? The LGA who take seven months and then come up with a blanket and factually incorrect judgement? Or some players who got an advantage and won enough money as to scare the casino into locking accounts and claiming it had all been a horrible mistake?

 

[thelawnet]

Learn to live with the fact that they don't care.

Shameful indeed. Malta is as bad as Kahnawake when it comes to player support.

Another email went out to see if anyone is alive on the island - this time, no auto responder.

Incidentally Antigua recently got 'whitelisted' in the UK. I never got any response when I emailed them a few years back. Maybe once they found they could make more money by acting responsibly they improved a bit. Or maybe they just have good lobbyists. I guess a week on the beach at the St James' Club is probably more appealing than a tour of the Kahnawake nation.

No idea.

 

[thelawnet]

The response is a joke.

BTW, the tags on this one are wrong.

'Botched promos' perhaps, 'technical glitches' no - this was incompetence in running a casino that then refused to pay.

The Malta response is a complete joke. I'm not going to go into the arguments again because they have been gone over too many times already, but deliberately doing nothing for nine months and then responding without making any attempt to address the points raised and then saying 'this matter is closed' is absurd. How can it be closed when they have simply regurgitated the email that Interwetten sent out the day after they stole everybody's money?

This is not 'ask the players what happened, ask the casino for their side, and then clarify individual points between the two side', this is 'ignore people completely for nine months and then just send out the casino's response'.

In what way does this constitute 'regulation'? Absolute bullshit. The UK should take over regulation of UK players' concerns for all of these 'whitelisted' casinos, then we might have something other than 'casinos pay us licence fees, let's do whatever they ask.'

 

[klankenstein]

Winnings were maintained only if it was clear that they derived from real money stakes.

As per previous comment, this could not happen as as soon as one bonus payment had been made, all future play could be theoretically linked back to that. So no winnings were maintained and IW had to make no payouts for the day in question.

As far as I am aware, those who had winnings SOLELY from real money - i.e. they never dipped below the total of the real amount deposited and that which was won through gameplay (so NOT playing with bonus money) DID receive their winnings, less the bonus amount that was credited. I think going down the "they stole EVERYBODY's money" is the wrong way to argue this point as they will simply state that some accounts did receive winnings.

The remainder of your points however are spot on.

 

[Pinababy69]

Interwetten has changed softwares to MG. I wonder if this means they will now (or already do) fall under the eCOGRA umbrella? Either way, they should be forced to deal with this issue appropriately.

European bookmaker Interwetten goes live with casino
30 January 2009


(PRESS RELEASE) -- Microgaming, the world's largest online gaming software provider, today announces that top European bookmaker Interwetten, has gone live with its market leading casino software.

The partnership with industry giant Interwetten further strengthens Microgaming's elite portfolio of operators and arrives on the back of an unprecedented series of successful product launches last year.

Interwetten are now live with Microgaming's full complement of over 400 multilingual casino games including the new and incredibly popular multiplayer BlackJack tournaments and renowned Casino management tools. Interwetten will also be making use of over 160 exciting flash games launched directly from their website.

The decision to use Microgaming's software means that Interwetten are able to provide the most engaging and sophisticated online experience for its customers. Interwetten are now able to offer both multiplayer casino games and casino tournaments while using Microgaming's back-end software to apply business intelligence tools to optimise every game, every player, and every spin to maximise results and increase profitability.

Roger Raatgever, Microgaming CEO says, "We are thrilled to welcome such an esteemed and successful business to our customer base and look forward to a long and successful partnership with Interwetten. 2008 saw Microgaming go from strength to strength having driven a number of major initiatives that are significantly benefiting our operators."

"We are pleased to partner with a market leader like Microgaming. By relaunching the casino site we are reacting to an increasing development trend and are making the best offer on the market available to our customers", Thomas Daubek, Interwetten CEO

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[Tengil]

Seems that MG tries to catch up with Playtech and RTG in the amount of shady licensees.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Interwetten has changed softwares to MG. I wonder if this means they will now (or already do) fall under the eCOGRA umbrella? Either way, they should be forced to deal with this issue appropriately.

European bookmaker Interwetten goes live with casino
30 January 2009


(PRESS RELEASE) -- Microgaming, the world's largest online gaming software provider, today announces that top European bookmaker Interwetten, has gone live with its market leading casino software.

The partnership with industry giant Interwetten further strengthens Microgaming's elite portfolio of operators and arrives on the back of an unprecedented series of successful product launches last year.

Interwetten are now live with Microgaming's full complement of over 400 multilingual casino games including the new and incredibly popular multiplayer BlackJack tournaments and renowned Casino management tools. Interwetten will also be making use of over 160 exciting flash games launched directly from their website.

The decision to use Microgaming's software means that Interwetten are able to provide the most engaging and sophisticated online experience for its customers. Interwetten are now able to offer both multiplayer casino games and casino tournaments while using Microgaming's back-end software to apply business intelligence tools to optimise every game, every player, and every spin to maximise results and increase profitability.

Roger Raatgever, Microgaming CEO says, "We are thrilled to welcome such an esteemed and successful business to our customer base and look forward to a long and successful partnership with Interwetten. 2008 saw Microgaming go from strength to strength having driven a number of major initiatives that are significantly benefiting our operators."

"We are pleased to partner with a market leader like Microgaming. By relaunching the casino site we are reacting to an increasing development trend and are making the best offer on the market available to our customers", Thomas Daubek, Interwetten CEO

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Oops, bit of a cock up then, they are pretty much saying their back end tools allows them to alter parameters on MGS games, parameters, so we are told, that do not exist.
Well, does the MGS back end permit RTG style limited "optimising" or not, or were they expecting it to for some reason, or did someone just come out with a load of verbal diarrhoea to sound good to investors, and accidentally said something that MEANT something for a change.
A good journalist would niggle away at those bolded bits to find out if there is anything worth knowing, or indeed exposing. Given that there have been widespread tales of woe from players about the games at MG just not being how they were, then just maybe they HAVE inadvertently revealed something they shouldn't have about the functionality of the back end.