I make ONE deposit at an RTG casino and this is what happens.

[vinylweatherman]

What I find most worrying is that this is two completely different descriptors. This rules out quite a few of the innocent explanations such as a pre-auth and the actual charge both showing on the card before the pre-auth drops off. The bank will see this as two separate purchases with two different online merchants, not a single transaction that got posted twice.

Despite needing to keep such schemes under the radar, more and more casinos are inflating the throughput unnecessarily by using the scheme for non-US players. Unlike US players, many of whom know the score, a non-US player who suddenly sees this amongst their usual gambling transactions that are correctly coded as such may react by thinking they have become a victim of fraud, and not automatically accepting that it is their casino deposit.

I have played at La Vida for some time, but earlier this year I suddenly found I had bought several grands worth of "software" at £699.99 a pop. Now my bank knows full well that this was my gambling card, and was hammered for gambling transactions of even greater amounts, but the impression that I had suddenly quit gambling and was buying many thousands of pounds worth of software from some obscure (and fake) offshore companies presented a significant risk that the bank would think I had been defrauded and act accordingly. Luckily for the casino, this was Barclays, the most laid back bank I have ever come across with regard to gambling transactions. Other banks often blocked anything over £100 or £200, or more than a couple of deposits per day, as their automated fraud detection algorithms were so tight.

Miscoding a transaction to a UK bank is taking a completely unnecessary risk, and although gambling here is legal, moneylaundering via fake offshore merchant sites is not. I didn't take this up with Barclays, as I knew what was going on because of being a member here, and seeing what is happening in the US. I accepted that my deposits had for some reason been routed via a US facing processor. Just why is a puzzle though, as the casino had pulled out of the US a while back, and had no need to retain a US facing processor.

It may look similarly odd to a Canadian bank where they know the customer uses the card for gambling, and suddenly they fire off several non gambling transactions for other "sinful pleasures".

The US banks all know damn well what is going on, but until they have proof, they cannot act by blocking or reversing the transactions in case they turn out to be legit.

 

[maphesto]

Back to my computer again!

Compare these two texts/quotes:

1. This is from Rome Casino:

Rome Casino is operated by
Rome Partners

Your credit card will be billed immediately after purchase and will show on your credit card statement as "www.rome-casino .com, (1-877-294-3689)

2. This is from Skiny's post:

11/27/2012 15:28:05 ROME - C +1-877-294-36CY $-26.14

This is definately not a coincidence. A shared processor? Another strange connection between casinos?

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is interesting.

Take a look at this 2-bedroom Single family detached home sitting on a large 68 X 175 foot treed lot. Features include Gas fireplace, Gas furnace, laminate, hardwood and vinyl flooring. Lower level walk out partially finished with recroom and workshop. Only one neighbour very private backyard next to Bayridge overpass with stream running beside property. This house offers a very affordableoption for owning your own home in Kingston. For more information, call Beverly Lynne Coutts, Remax Realty Concepts Corp., (613) 389 7777 or 1 877 294 3689.

How does a real estate agent have the same phone number as Rome casino and this mysterious processor

There is also an independent link that associates Lynne Coutts of Remax Reality Concepts Corp to this number.


So, what if you were genuinely interested in buying this house? You would call the Real Estate agent and get "Rome casino support, how can I help you". This would confuse the hell out of someone.

Is this entire Real Estate firm just a fake front for Top Game?

The other descriptor is from an actual shopping mall in the Phillipine city of Cebu. So, a single transaction triggers two charges, one to a shop at the mall in Cebu, and another to a real estate agency


The whole thing stinks.

 

[Brooklyn]

Good eye Maphesto, good eye. I think I will let you wear the detective pants on this one


WTF?!?!

I would definitely like to know which casino this is as well.

 

[GrandMaster]

How does a real estate agent have the same phone number as Rome casino and this mysterious processor

A little web search shows that the real estate firm's correct number is 1-877-924-3689 .

 

[Casinomeister]

Just a quick admin note - the more information you post online about payment processing, the more problematic it becomes for some funds to get where they need to go. Just sayin'.

It's been mentioned before somewhere I'm sure that some of the companies connected to Rome/Top Gaming were considering running their own processor. That could be the reason Rome Casino's service support number is showing up. I'm just guessing. And it could be that some non-Topgaming casinos are using this processor. That's another guess, but it would explain a lot.

Now let's see how long it takes for this processor to get shut down.

 

[maphesto]

I understand perfectly, and I want to add that my quote from Rome is from their own homepage. It's already there, online, everyone can see it.

IF this is a processor directly connected to Rome, I am definately not the one to cry if it shuts down.

I am very interested in how an RTG casino can be connected (or not) to this processor.

 

[Casinomeister]

...

I am very interested in how an RTG casino can be connected (or not) to this processor.

You would probably have an agreement with them in order to use it. Just a guess.

 

[skiny]

Emailed today.

I am contacting you regarding your recent enquiry about double charges. We have received a confirmation from our processing bank that in fact due to banking errors they are experiencing at the moment, they have charged your card twice.
This extra charge has now been refunded to your card and will be in your account within 30 days according to banking refund procedures frame time.

30 days? I made a withdrawal to the same card from 32Red on Sunday and it was on my card on Tuesday.

So how does this happen? Did the software send the deposit request to two different processors? Did one processor submit two transactions on my card under two different company names? I read and hear about a lot more processor problems with RTG casinos than any other casino brand. I'm still convinced it's the processors they choose to deal with. The ones who are willing to work around the little problem of online gambling being illegal in the US by using fake company names on transactions. From now on I only play where the casino name is listed beside my transactions. This was a very small amount of money. What if I didn't plan to use the rest of the money on that card for something else and just piddled it away gambling and then looked back next month at my transactions? I could very easily have not even noticed that extra transaction.

You mean you're not accustomed to making regular transactions at Chang's Exotic Italian Shoes & Online Basket Making Service?

Chang's Italian shoes? Is that like Luigi's Thai food emporium?

It's even the beginning of Rome's phone number... Which RTG casino is this?

I don't even think the specific casino is the point. It's not rogue so I should be able to trust it but can I trust the processors they're using? The fact that neither of these transactions have any casino name beside them suggests they're making a point to hide what the transactions are for. If processors are willing to transfer money for the purpose of gambling to places where gambling is illegal they're obviously willing to participate in illegal activities. Whatever processor 32Red or 3Dice or Bet365 is using, they're quite happy to post the name of the casino right beside the transaction. Seems a little more trustworthy to me. What I don't understand is why RTG casinos can't do this for players who are gambling where it's legal. Why can't the name of an RTG casino be beside my transactions on my credit statement?

OK so if what you say is 100and 10% true then call the bank[ YOU ] admit to owning one of the charges and suggest that the second was a [hicup] =duplicate charge / why should eather a honest or crooked processer object to that
case closed I M H O

If what I say is true?

I stopped reading after that.

What I find most worrying is that this is two completely different descriptors. This rules out quite a few of the innocent explanations such as a pre-auth and the actual charge both showing on the card before the pre-auth drops off. The bank will see this as two separate purchases with two different online merchants, not a single transaction that got posted twice.

That's the part I don't understand. If this was a simple hiccup or a processor accidentally charging me twice, why does it have two different processors? Unless one processor is using different company names to make transactions.

Just a quick admin note - the more information you post online about payment processing, the more problematic it becomes for some funds to get where they need to go. Just sayin'.

Now let's see how long it takes for this processor to get shut down.

If people are being double charged by any processor they should be shut down. I'd rather not gamble than deal with people I can't trust.

I suggest checking your credit card transaction history after every deposit or at least after you're done gambling each night. At least if little bits are going missing you'll have a better chance of noticing it right away.

 

[just play]

I don't believe it will take 30 days, it will be more like a week. I think they just say "within 30 days".

At least this is good news, you received a reply in a timely manner, they explained to you what happened. (even though I don't understand how that happens)

The only bad thing I was thinking was what if you loaded your card for gambling and something online for a Christmas deal that was only good for that day. That would suck.

Anyway, glad it's all straightened out.

 

[Sazy_Girl]

This happen to me unbelievable

The same thing happen to me with Desert Nights Casino and the processor they have. Whats worse it that they are trying to talk me into keeping the bogus second charge and playing on it or offering me a 30 day refund time frame?
I never had this problem before either. I made a dispute with my bank and they have a policy if you didnt authorize you wont pay!
I think I am more upset with the email I received saying sorry how about you just play it anyway if its credited by mistake?

Are you kidding me?

 

[maphesto]

Desert Nights?

Hmm. Coincidence now when Deckmedia took over three Top Game casinos?

Skiny hasn't told us which RTG casino it was when it said ROME.

 

[skiny]

Desert Nights?

Hmm. Coincidence now when Deckmedia took over three Top Game casinos?

Skiny hasn't told us which RTG casino it was when it said ROME.

The casino was nice about it in the end although they did give me that 30 day wait to get my money back.

I'm still waiting to see if the money ever makes it back to my credit card. If it doesn't, then the shit hits the fan.

 

[Nifty29]

The same thing happen to me with Desert Nights Casino and the processor they have. Whats worse it that they are trying to talk me into keeping the bogus second charge and playing on it or offering me a 30 day refund time frame?
I never had this problem before either. I made a dispute with my bank and they have a policy if you didnt authorize you wont pay!
I think I am more upset with the email I received saying sorry how about you just play it anyway if its credited by mistake?

Are you kidding me?

You can probably forget about using your card at casinos from now on, as you have initiated a chargeback which creates a red flag all over the net.

It also means you might have future winnings confiscated even at casinos you play at regularly.

 

[skiny]

You can probably forget about using your card at casinos from now on, as you have initiated a chargeback which creates a red flag all over the net.

It also means you might have future winnings confiscated even at casinos you play at regularly.

Nice way to put players who use credit cards behind the 8 ball.

Any casino who would ban players for taking the only route they have to get back what is rightfully theirs is just as bad as the processors who are stealing the money.

Now, I was told in my case it was a mistake and when I see the money back on my credit card I will believe that. As I said before, it's the casino's job to choose which processor facilitates our transactions. If there is a problem with that processor and the casino refuses to rectify it, the player is well within his or her right to take matters into their own hands. In fact, the casino has left that player with no other choice.

If processors are getting shut down as a result of this, the players trying to retrieve their money should be at the very end of the blame list.

 

[just play]

You can probably forget about using your card at casinos from now on, as you have initiated a chargeback which creates a red flag all over the net.

It also means you might have future winnings confiscated even at casinos you play at regularly.

I'm just wondering what you would do? Honestly. If you got your money stolen from a casino/processor, say they double charged you or even like in "Kenos" case charged and charged and the casino wouldn't help you.

What would you do? Just suck it up? Even if it was thousands? I wouldn't suck up $20, theft is theft.

 

[Nifty29]

I'm just wondering what you would do? Honestly. If you got your money stolen from a casino/processor, say they double charged you or even like in "Kenos" case charged and charged and the casino wouldn't help you.

What would you do? Just suck it up? Even if it was thousands? I wouldn't suck up $20, theft is theft.

It depends. I seldom use my card for that reason.

The problem I have with the previous poster is that they were promised a refund within 30 days by the casino, but went ahead and charged back anyway. In that case, it is unacceptable IMO. If the 30 days pass, then sure.....it would be obvious it wasn't coming.

In kenos case, I think it was the only option they had remaining, and IMO it was acceptable, particularly given the casino involved.

I was pointing out the possible repercussions to the other member. Yourself and skiny seem to have this idea that I was supporting the zero tolerance attitude of online casinos regarding past chargebacks. Each case should be taken on its merit, and situations like kenos should not be considered fraud and grounds for non-payment. I was merely pointing out that its the way things are, that's all.

 

[chuchu59]

Within this industry, the policy on 'chargebacks' should be discussed in depth. Surely, a chargeback or the mere threat of it should not be grounds to lock out players or deny winnings if the player had used all other possible legitimate means to reverse a wrong charge. In other words, what else could a player do if the casino in question refuses to help out. Then there are also rogue players who charge back when they dont win on their deposits(yes I am thinking of the infamous Babs case) and casinos should have means to protect themselves. All this merits discussion and I believe this should be raised at a relevant platform or conference in the near future. The present policy of treating players who have initiated or threatened chargebacks like dirt is out of touch with reality IMO.

 

[just play]

It depends. I seldom use my card for that reason.

The problem I have with the previous poster is that they were promised a refund within 30 days by the casino, but went ahead and charged back anyway. In that case, it is unacceptable IMO. If the 30 days pass, then sure.....it would be obvious it wasn't coming.

In kenos case, I think it was the only option they had remaining, and IMO it was acceptable, particularly given the casino involved.

I was pointing out the possible repercussions to the other member. Yourself and skiny seem to have this idea that I was supporting the zero tolerance attitude of online casinos regarding past chargebacks. Each case should be taken on its merit, and situations like kenos should not be considered fraud and grounds for non-payment. I was merely pointing out that its the way things are, that's all.

But you seem to think everyone knows there are things you can do. Just because the previous poster has belonged here since 2009 doesn't mean she knew anything about chargebacks. Remember when you were new at online gaming...I'm absolutely possitive you didn't know some things you know now.

Yes, I did think you had zero tolerance for chargebacks, it's the way you post I guess which led me to believe that. You post a lot to people about making chargebacks and not being able to play online anymore, when you do that it leds me to the conclusion that you have zero tolerance for chargebacks. Now I know that you think each case should be taken on it's merit.

But again, you have to think of a newbie playing online, s/he sees a double charge or multiple charges, says to themselves wtf? My first instinct would be to contact casino, if they didn't help out of provide help in any way, my next instinct would be chargeback. You can't really dog people for doing this, it's a natural instinct within people when they get stolen from, to retrieve their funds.

I agree with Chuchu 100% this really needs to be addressed and discussed. I would love to see a thread containing casinos/Bryan/members discuss this. Kenos case really bothered me, he was so afraid of doing chargebacks (I believe because he listened to people here) he ended up losing thousands, that's not right. And even though his case was high profile and supposidly the chargebacks won't affect his online gaming, we really don't know for sure right now. And why should he get a free pass, and newbies shouldn't? Just because his case was discussed in length? I'm thinking about newbies compaired to him.

I wonder if this indeed could be brought up in a conference?

 

[vinylweatherman]

But you seem to think everyone knows there are things you can do. Just because the previous poster has belonged here since 2009 doesn't mean she knew anything about chargebacks. Remember when you were new at online gaming...I'm absolutely possitive you didn't know some things you know now.

Yes, I did think you had zero tolerance for chargebacks, it's the way you post I guess which led me to believe that. You post a lot to people about making chargebacks and not being able to play online anymore, when you do that it leds me to the conclusion that you have zero tolerance for chargebacks. Now I know that you think each case should be taken on it's merit.

But again, you have to think of a newbie playing online, s/he sees a double charge or multiple charges, says to themselves wtf? My first instinct would be to contact casino, if they didn't help out of provide help in any way, my next instinct would be chargeback. You can't really dog people for doing this, it's a natural instinct within people when they get stolen from, to retrieve their funds.

I agree with Chuchu 100% this really needs to be addressed and discussed. I would love to see a thread containing casinos/Bryan/members discuss this. Kenos case really bothered me, he was so afraid of doing chargebacks (I believe because he listened to people here) he ended up losing thousands, that's not right. And even though his case was high profile and supposidly the chargebacks won't affect his online gaming, we really don't know for sure right now. And why should he get a free pass, and newbies shouldn't? Just because his case was discussed in length? I'm thinking about newbies compaired to him.

I wonder if this indeed could be brought up in a conference?

It does,

We used to be able to trust the processors casinos used, and on the odd occasion that something went wrong, the casinos were keen to put it right. Now we have so many cases of processors taking bogus charges, and casinos increasingly taking the attitude that it is not their problem if a player got screwed by a dodgy processor. Rushmore then went a step further, telling players to make a chargeback as they were not prepared to lift a finger to help because they no longer used that processor.

Even telling a player to wait 30 days is not good enough. A mistake should be rectified immediately, not at the miscreant's leisure.

Now it seems even non-US players are getting hit by these dodgy processors. There is no excuse for casinos placing these transactions through their high risk US facing processors. They also leave themselves open to more aggressive action from players caught up in the mess, as they don't have to worry that their bank will kick them out if they complain. US banks are only getting fooled because the players play along if they are asked about that bicycle from the middle east, or the clothes from China.

If a UK player just started out and saw their first deposit billed to a shopping mall in the Philipines, they would think the casino was a con, and had stolen their card details and started using them. They may go straight to the bank before even giving the casino a chance to explain themselves. A UK player would expect a casino deposit to show up as one, correctly coded as "gambling chips", and showing the name of the casino operator.

 

[skiny]

It depends. I was pointing out the possible repercussions to the other member. Yourself and skiny seem to have this idea that I was supporting the zero tolerance attitude of online casinos regarding past chargebacks. Each case should be taken on its merit, and situations like kenos should not be considered fraud and grounds for non-payment. I was merely pointing out that its the way things are, that's all.

Actually I never mentioned your attitude. My comment was on your statement which sadly is a fact. Players are being black balled because casinos have left them no other option to retrieve funds taken by processors. What the casino should be doing is immediately reimbursing the player even if it means using another processor to do it and then refusing to use the first processor until they have reimbursed the casino. And if they never reimburse the casino then the casino takes the responsibility and the loss and they never use that processor again. It doesn't matter how honest the casino is, if the processors are not, you're still dealing with crooks.

If a UK player just started out and saw their first deposit billed to a shopping mall in the Philipines, they would think the casino was a con, and had stolen their card details and started using them. They may go straight to the bank before even giving the casino a chance to explain themselves. A UK player would expect a casino deposit to show up as one, correctly coded as "gambling chips", and showing the name of the casino operator.

This was my point earlier in the thread. If I use 3Dice, Playtech or Microgaming it states specifically on my credit card statement exactly where the money went. There is no reason RTG casinos can't do the same for players outside of the US.

 

[Nifty29]

But you seem to think everyone knows there are things you can do. Just because the previous poster has belonged here since 2009 doesn't mean she knew anything about chargebacks. Remember when you were new at online gaming...I'm absolutely possitive you didn't know some things you know now.

Yes, I did think you had zero tolerance for chargebacks, it's the way you post I guess which led me to believe that. You post a lot to people about making chargebacks and not being able to play online anymore, when you do that it leds me to the conclusion that you have zero tolerance for chargebacks. Now I know that you think each case should be taken on it's merit.

But again, you have to think of a newbie playing online, s/he sees a double charge or multiple charges, says to themselves wtf? My first instinct would be to contact casino, if they didn't help out of provide help in any way, my next instinct would be chargeback. You can't really dog people for doing this, it's a natural instinct within people when they get stolen from, to retrieve their funds.

I agree with Chuchu 100% this really needs to be addressed and discussed. I would love to see a thread containing casinos/Bryan/members discuss this. Kenos case really bothered me, he was so afraid of doing chargebacks (I believe because he listened to people here) he ended up losing thousands, that's not right. And even though his case was high profile and supposidly the chargebacks won't affect his online gaming, we really don't know for sure right now. And why should he get a free pass, and newbies shouldn't? Just because his case was discussed in length? I'm thinking about newbies compaired to him.

I wonder if this indeed could be brought up in a conference?

Well, firstly I agree that when I was a newb I didn't know everything that I do know. However, I would think being a member for almost 3 years would create a reasonable timeframe to be aware of such things, considering they are discussed fairly frequently in the forum. In the recent case, my objection isn't necessarily based on the member's "ignorance" of the consequences of chargebacks, but rather the fact that they have not given the casino time to make it right. The casino is not being difficult, in fact they have promised to refund the money no arguments. It could, in factm result in the member being re-imbursed twice, and I'm sure they won't be returning the extra money (I hope that wasn't their intent...I've seen it done before).

The more I think about it, the less I think being a newb or a veteran is even relevant. If the casino is happy to refund, and provides a timeframe, then the player should refrain from action until that deadline passes. Once it does, go and chargeback.....although it might be better to make one more contact in case they have lost that processor like rushmore did, in which case they should offer to send the amount via ewallet or bank wire....if they don't, then chargeback. Whether you're a newb or not, it is basic common sense.

The reason keno gets a "pass" is because he went about things in the right way. In fact, IMO he gave them too much leeway given the operator involved. I'm sure that his bank has procedures when fraud is involved that surpass the 60 day deadline etc....I know my bank does.

You will also find that the instances in which I voice an objection to chargebacks almost always involve a member trying to use chargebacks as a first line solution, instead of allowing the casino to make things right. Nobody should get a pass for that IMO. Of course, there is then people like Babs who use it as a tool to make their gambling free...these are the people who should be drawn and quartered.

In most cases, I'm actually trying to tell the member how serious CB's are and that they are endangering their future gambling endeavours.

Most casinos take a zero tolerance approach to past chargebacks at other casinos because it is time consuming and, in the end, not always clear whether the player was innocently trying to recover stolen funds or "doing a Babs". At the end of the day, it is a huge risk and the time and effort trying to sort it out may not be economically viable. It's kind of a catch-22 actually, because if they are a low roller, the time and effort costs more than the potential profit, and if they are a high roller, the risk of allowing large transactions is very high given their history. So, you can see why casinos just say "bugger it" and just have a zero tolerance blanket approach. I'm not saying it is fair, but they are a business and they need to protect their profits like any other.

I take the point of VWM about UK card players. What I don't get is why all non-US players don't use ewallets exclusively, as it removes any issues involving processor descriptors and there is no need to consider chargebacks. Also, you can upload using bank accounts etc which incur less fees. The 30 day wait is obviously a "ass-covering" timeframe for the casino, and I would be VERY surprised if the refunds actually took any longer than 14 days. Yes, payouts to cards can take 2-5 days, but remember this is a dispute and the casino would have to request the refund in a different way to the processor, I can accept it may take longer. If it were 14 days with no news, I would be getting worried, and possibly even have dispute forms sent out so that when the 30 days lapses I am ready to go.

I'll make this point once again. The (accredited) casinos involved here ARE being totally responsive in resolving the situations, and are to a large extent at the mercy of their processor. In saying that, I do have to wonder why CWC has continual issues with their processors when Inetbet (also in UK) seems to have no problems whatsoever. Maybe some new blood is needed in the financial department at CWC?

 

[Balthazar]

Of course, there is then people like Babs who use it as a tool to make their gambling free

(...)

not always clear whether the player was innocently trying to recover stolen funds or "doing a Babs"

Who's this Babs person you are referring to? If you have a link or something, I'm always interested to read about this kind of stuff.

 

[just play]

What I don't get is why all non-US players don't use ewallets exclusively

I can only speak for myself. I will never use an ewallet, I don't trust them, some want WAY too much information for my liking. (there's a thread in ATB about one of them and all the hastle and information they want) Wasn't there a few ewallets that just shut down and took the peoples money with them? I like my pre-paid, I feel more safe. I have been double charged a few times by casinos and non-casino related places, always received my money back, but I never load too much anyway.

There is something many people don't know...pre-paid cards CAN go in the negative. They think that just because they load $50 on it, that's all a casino or whomever can take, it's not true. So then you have a negative balance on your pre-paid card, you can either wait for it to come off, or reload an amount that covers the negative and enough to gamble with. I have had my same exact pre-paid card for 5 years, mine isn't a throw away.


Enough of that, lol....

In most cases, I'm actually trying to tell the member how serious CB's are and that they are endangering their future gambling endeavours

Yes, but sometimes the number of years a person is at a forum doesn't mean they are here everyday and read. I'm sure I belong to a few forums that I only visit a few times a year, but it looks as though I've been there for years.

Maybe there should be a sticky post pertaining to this subject?

 

[skiny]

What I don't get is why all non-US players don't use ewallets exclusively,

Like eWalletXpress?