I feel a problem approaching... what do I do?

SquareShooter

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Who's asking?
Hi there. It's been some time...

Long story short - I log in on my acct of a reputable casino (is there such a thing?) to find out that 90% of my balance is gone...
Roll-over has long been completed, no cashouts or signs of hacks etc, but the balance is gone...

Customer support clarified that they have a policy (which I never read or accepted ofcourse!) of deducting huge percentage of balance every month I do not log in. I repeat - HUGE percentage.. every month... And you know - they called it "management fee". They're acting like anti-bank or something :eek2:

No sort of "management fee" was included and described in Terms and Agreements which I accepted. And OFCOURSE nobody warned nor even notified me (very convenient!) after each deduction. My e-mail's working and they know it, right!? Wouldn't it be logical to drop a message like - "hey if you care, we just took another of your $100. Kind regards".

Ok, now I wonder... What do I do?

At this moment I have stated to them that their "management fee policy" is not binding to me because it wasn't in T&A and requested my balance returned. I will probably be ridiculed.

What then?
Please give some advice!

Thanks,

SqSh
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
What Casino is this ??....and again folks...when you post a situation like this asking for advice, please, please name the Casino !!
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
888Casino.com

# Monies held in your account shall not attract any interest.

# Should you fail to use your account for six months your account will be considered a "dormant account". The six-month period will run from the date of your last login to your account. In the case of a dormant account, the Company will levy a monthly administration fee at a rate of 10% of the balance in the account on the date that it became dormant. The administration fee shall be deducted from the dormant account commencing from the last day of the sixth month in which the account is inactive and on the last day of every month thereafter, until the balance of the account has reached zero. In the event that you login to your account during the ten-month period during which the administration fee is levied, the Company will cease to levy the administration fee but shall not be obligated to return to you any monies already deducted from the account at such time.
 

kakata

Banned User - hyper flamming
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
Joined
Dec 2, 2006
Location
miami fl
....and BTW how f...kin rich are you and what kind of an Id..t r u to leave money on a casino account.?....:confused:
Something fishy about the story....I might be wrong tho....as usual:D
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
....and BTW how f...kin rich are you and what kind of an Id..t r u to leave money on a casino account.?....:confused:
Something fishy about the story....I might be wrong tho....as usual:D

There could be many reasons why someone would leave cash online but that is a real sneaky term. I noticed it a couple of months ago at 888 and was pretty shocked. I dont know if that is the site he is talking about but it's the only one I have noticed.

The terms havnt changed since november 2007.

Never mind the big money, what about the $5-$10 people routinely leave on an account when they get fed up with a site for a while. Remember there is usually a minimum withdrawal in place.

Sites who add terms like that should be avoided. This is nothing short of extortion
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Sorry I cannot remember which casino, but one of the T&C's at a casino I played at was that I agree to read the T&C's monthly. By agreeing to that policy I am bound by any changes made, (as I understood it) in the previous calendar month. I worked as a legal secretary and read T&C's and fine print on everything. Sometimes it is hard to find the T&C's from the casino software and you have to go to the casino site itself. I'll make sure to re-visit T&C's before my next deposit, and will add the name when I come across it. Elsewhere on this forum another member posted that you are wise to revisit the T&C's periodically, and I always check bonus terms and conditions on any e-mailed offers.
 

bonustreak

Senior Member
webmeister
Joined
Nov 18, 2004
Location
Home Office
I have left money sitting in Micros plenty of times with no issues, been up and had to go run errands and next thing I know a few days go by before I have the chance to go in and play again, happens all the time more then you think.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Even though 888.com has this in their Ts&Cs (and I guess we're assuming that this is the casino Sharpshooter is referring to), one would expect a series of emails to be sent to notify the player that the balance is being chiseled away.

10% a month seems pretty steep though :rolleyes:

I'd suggest that Sharpshooter PABs so Max can have this addressed.

Has this happened to anyone else?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Even though 888.com has this in their Ts&Cs (and I guess we're assuming that this is the casino Sharpshooter is referring to), one would expect a series of emails to be sent to notify the player that the balance is being chiseled away.

10% a month seems pretty steep though :rolleyes:

I'd suggest that Sharpshooter PABs so Max can have this addressed.

Has this happened to anyone else?

If this is 888.com, they are licenced in Gibraltar, and this could be challenged under "unfair consumer contract" regulations. The reason being the charge is a PENALTY, and not a legitimate charge for a service, which would be the actual cost to the company of providing the service, plus a small profit of the same margin normally made on it's services.
The UK Banks have LOST their recent case that their extortionate charges were "for providing a service", and it has been ruled that they can be investigated under the consumer contract laws.
If the casino is NOT EU regulated, tough maybe, but always worth exerting pressure.
The lack of notification certainly shows they were conniving to confiscate the balance, rather than give the player every opportunity to realise they had some funds left. Their maths is also pretty poor, as a 10% fee would surely be 10% of what is left, not 10% of the starting sum, otherwise it is NOT a "10% monthly fee", but rather a mechanism to clear the account in as short a time as possible.

SOME casinos just seem to DESERVE rogue players:mad:

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto yourself" - applies to businesses as well as people, and businesses that forget this often suffer in the long term, despite the short term gains.
 

SquareShooter

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Who's asking?
Ok, thanks folks!

You know I have always been more of a sportsbook guy and I thought I have seen it all :what:

I sent one last request to stop this shady business practice but most likely for no good.

PAB I guess is Pitch A Bitch, I will do it as soon as they deny me last time.


The casino was indeed 888.com (Casino-On-Net).

Thanks guys, I will keep you up to date on how this resolves!

Regards,

SqSh
 

SquareShooter

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 5, 2006
Location
Who's asking?
Ok, they denied me

Ok, they denied me one last time, what a surprise.

From my conversation with CS:
"You can find "management fee" clause if you go to our website and scroll down and then click on user agreement.
SqSh we do not and will not run a shady business practice. These are terms and conditions that you agreed to which is clearly stated on our website. As per our management fee policy of 10%, we are not obliged to notify player and your funds will not be credited back to your bankroll.

Now, one last question - do I have rights and reason to PAB them or maybe is it really not a shady business practice? (I personally think thats a theft but obviously I can't be fully impartial on this one)


BTW I also wonder is it not too late once again for me... Because PAB rules say:
"If you choose to publicize your complaint in the public fora, we reserve the right to disregard it. Making complaints a public issue will usually derail most arbitrations."

Does this thread I made qualify as publicizing complaint in public fora?
 
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Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Ok, they denied me one last time, what a surprise:

From my conversation with CS:


Now, one last question - do I have rights and reason to PAB them or maybe is it really not a shady business practice? (I personally think thats a theft but obviously I can't be fully impartial on this one)


BTW I also wonder is it not too late once again for me... Because PAB rules say:
"If you choose to publicize your complaint in the public fora, we reserve the right to disregard it. Making complaints a public issue will usually derail most arbitrations."

Does this thread I made qualify as publicizing complaint in public fora?
Your postings are perfectly understandable. I'm mostly concerned with players who come into a forum and start abusing a casino verbally. That's a good way to put a casino operator in the defensive mode. It doesn't apply in this case.

As for PABing, well it may be fruitless since this is clearly stated in their terms and conditions. You can PAB, and Max or I can contact them and tell them their terms suck, but that's as far as it will probably go.

FWIW - you won't find them listed here any time soon unless this policy is modified to something more player friendly. :rolleyes:
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
This is an adaption to a bank letter. I successfully claimed using this letter a few years back.

To offer their services within the UK, I believe 888 are obligated to comply with the Consumer Act to maintain their accreditation. The letter goes as recorded delivery for proof of receipt.

Im not really sure of international law but it could have strong implications regarding advertising in the UK.

I can check a few details with someone when they come back from the Champions League game.



your address]


Cassava Enterprises (Gibraltar) Ltd
Europort 601-701
Gibraltar, Gibraltar 99999
GI


[date]


Request for repayment of "management fee"

Dear Sir/Madam,

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxxxxxx


My request I am writing to ask you to refund to me the "management fee" which you have levied from my account over the last XXXX months.

I now understand that the regime of fees which you have been applying to my account are unlawful at Common Law and contrary to consumer regulations. If you say that they are not, then will you please demonstrate this by letting me have a full breakdown of the costs to which you have been put by as a result of my breaches, in order to reassure me that your "management fees" really do reflect your costs.

Additionally, your particularly high disproportionate levels of "management fees" are presumed to be unlawful unless you can provide specific proof to the contrary.

Your responsibilities. I would draw your attention to the terms of the contract which you agreed to at the time that I opened my account. It is an implied term of that contract that you would conduct yourselves lawfully and in a manner which complies with UK law. (needs checked)

I am frankly shocked that you have operated my account in this way as I had always reposed confidence in your integrity and expertise.

I consider that your repeated representations that your "management fees" are fair and reasonable are deceptive.

What I require. I calculate that you have taken XXXXX which you have charged me in "management fees" which you had applied unlawfully to my account.


My targets to resolve this matter I hope that you will enter into a sincere dialogue with me about this matter and I am writing this letter to you on the assumption that you will prefer to do this than merely respond with standard letter.

I will give you 14 days to reply to me accepting, unconditionally, my request in principle and letting me know a date by which I will receive payment.

If you dispute that I am entitled to a refund of these "management fees", I request that you forward within the above mentioned time scale, a copy of the Terms and Conditions that were in force at the time my account was opened, and any subsequent amendments to those Terms and Conditions. These are requested under CPR Pre-Action Protocol 4.6(c), and failure to provide them will be brought to the attention of the court, should it be necessary to commence court action.

If you do not respond, or you do not respond positively, within this time period, I shall send you a letter before action giving you a further 14 days in which to reflect. I believe that these targets are more than sufficient for a large company such as yours with dedicated staff and departments.

After that, there will be no further communication from me and I shall issue a claim at the expiry of the second deadline.



Current Registrar: NETWORK SOLUTIONS, LLC.
IP Address: 213.52.244.15 (ARIN & RIPE IP search)
IP Location: UK(UNITED KINGDOM)-ENGLAND-LONDON
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
17.1 General

If any part of this Agreement shall be deemed unlawful, void or for any reason unenforceable, then that provision shall be deemed to be severable from the rest of this Agreement and shall not affect the validity and enforceability of any of the remaining provisions of this Agreement. In such cases, the part deemed invalid or unenforceable shall be construed in a manner consistent with applicable law to reflect, as closely as possible, the original intent of the parties.
 

james01

Dormant account
Joined
May 13, 2007
Location
Germany
I find this completely unbelievable.
I mean, they're basically running a site which takes your money.
Then they charge you more because you haven't given your money willingly enough.
Unbelievable. Some businesses have absolutely no integrity.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
It does show that those players who withdraw at the end of a session because they "don't trust the casino to look after it" are doing the right thing.
This kind of action shows that some casinos will take full advantage of players who "trust" them more than is necessary. Pity for the industry though, as this lack of trust is reflected in the fact that many players disregard the ability of the software to hold a balance between sessions, even for weeks or months, and insist on withdrawing everything each time they decide to stop playing. Many players do not trust a casino to hold their money overnight!!!

If a BANK did this, they would be forced to give it back. The only comparable thing to this are stores that sell "gift certificates", where the purchaser swaps proper money for "currency" issued by a store that may expire after as little as a year. The store makes 100% profit if the certificate is never used.

Worth complaining to Gibraltar, just to see what their position is on this kind of business practice.
 
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lauram

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Location
toronto
I recall last month there was a post on about a casino wanted to charge them a extra fee when they had been done playing (they wanted to cash out) as they didnt like to leave their money in their account. They stated costs to much to give it back player deposits again and service fees add up. So now we have the opposite here
leave it here we will just take it away if you dont log in. What about the person
that gets caught up with a computer that dies has to wait to buy a new one.
Or internet probs that at times dont get solved over nite. I for one can say that my last house cable went out took them over 4 months to redo the wires outside to set me up again as it was winter and they couldnt just fix the the cable lines are they are underground. So now you deal with depositing and if you cant log in for some time they are going to take your money from you.
Just like banks have that dormant account but at least its a year and then its in a holding area not just vanished away.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
I have had 888 and all their casinos on a blacklist for a VERY long time.

These guys, in my opinion, are some of the worst of the worst.

I hope you get your money, but I would not hold my breath...
 

Richtree7

Dormant Account
Joined
Sep 22, 2006
Location
Massachusetts
Charge a Fee!!??

For holding your money? Crazy! Used to be a customer would receive interest from the holder for allowing them to hold your money... and thank the customer for doing business with them.
 

GaryWatson

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
These Management Fees are unfair:

The amount of these fees bear no relation to the cost incurred by the 888.com as a result of the players default. For this reason they may be unlawful as well as unfair.

888.com could easily help players to avoid fees but choose not to.

They could contact the players to remind them of the clause, or they could return the funds back into the players preferred banking option, less applicable fees.

888.com already profit from the funds left in the player accounts by collecting interest.

Hence, the management fee is not a management fee, but a penalty fee. It is an Unfair & Unlawful Contract.

It fails to comply with the Distance Selling Regulations which covers the internet.

If they fail to return the funds on request or remove the predatory term, the Director General of Fair Trading and Trading Standards Departments will be able to take proceedings for an injunction.

I hereby, offer 888.com 4 minutes in which to comply. Reimburse me to a sum of $1000, in return for my "management consultancy fee".
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
It would be reasonable IMO for a casino ro charge a fee to reactivate a dormant account. This would involve some staff time, and in my reading of T&C's I recall one casino that indicated that accounts with balances of less than $5.00 would not be reactivated. A set fee, not a percentage. It does not cost more to reactive an account containing $1,000 than to reactivate an account containing $23.50. There must be cases where a player dies and their estate is not aware of these balances, and the casino gets to keep the cash for good.
Just like banks have that dormant account but at least its a year and then its in a holding area not just vanished away.
When I was handling my father's estate, I received a letter (addressed to him) several years after his death regarding a inactive bank account that I was not aware of. But the $1.00 per month service charge the bank charged on that passbook account was non-negotiable, and amounted to more than half of what was less than $100 to begin with. But got what was leftover paid to the estate.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
If this is 888.com, they are licenced in Gibraltar, and this could be challenged under "unfair consumer contract" regulations. The reason being the charge is a PENALTY, and not a legitimate charge for a service, which would be the actual cost to the company of providing the service, plus a small profit of the same margin normally made on it's services.
The UK Banks have LOST their recent case that their extortionate charges were "for providing a service", and it has been ruled that they can be investigated under the consumer contract laws.
If the casino is NOT EU regulated, tough maybe, but always worth exerting pressure.
The lack of notification certainly shows they were conniving to confiscate the balance, rather than give the player every opportunity to realise they had some funds left. Their maths is also pretty poor, as a 10% fee would surely be 10% of what is left, not 10% of the starting sum, otherwise it is NOT a "10% monthly fee", but rather a mechanism to clear the account in as short a time as possible.

SOME casinos just seem to DESERVE rogue players:mad:

"Do unto others as you would have others do unto yourself" - applies to businesses as well as people, and businesses that forget this often suffer in the long term, despite the short term gains.
I respectfully disagree with your argument. The banks won the argument that the overdraft etc charges were not penalty but contractual charges. The bank charges may be ruled unfair in the next round, but it is not a foregone conclusion. Similarly, if the player was informed of the dormant account fee when he signed up, it is a contractual charge, and the player would have to sue in a Gibraltar court to have it declared unfair, or the equivalent of the OFT would have to do it, which I don't see happening.

The morality of the issue is quite different, and a decent casino would try to contact the player and refund him the balance of the account, instead of looking at it a yet another money making opportunity.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
It fails to comply with the Distance Selling Regulations which covers the internet.
Exactly how do the DSR apply here? Without looking up the Gibraltar version, the main points of the DSR are that the customer has the right to know who he is dealing with, i.e., a PO Box address or a website is not sufficient, and in most cases he has the right to cancel the contract within a week, but this does not apply if he has already used the good or services.
 
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