Non-Bonus Complaint hurdle VS Main Street

[ksech]

You're such an ass kisser Nifty, I have never seen a regular person be so defensive for the casinos as you are. It is beyond ridiculous and FYI, Just Play pegged you right with F M thing.

*confused...again*
I assumed nifty was referring to Max with his, "I tend to put my faith in someone who knows..." statement. Did I mis-read it? (I think the paint fumes are starting to get to my brain...)

 

[racefanrob]

Also, I had offered to forward a final plea to the casino people if hurdle provided one. He did not. In fact I received exactly zero communications from him after he submitted his PAB in spite of the fact that I emailed him twice. For someone so completely innocent he certainly was tight-lipped throughout the process.

I read your email to him Max. It states that you are done with it. You wont engage in arguing or debating it any longer. Your conclusion is conclusive. However, you are good enough to pass on any last words to the casino. Well, hurdle has done that himself with live chat and emails. Why would he send you something to pass on to them when he can do it himself? You gave him no reason to contact you back as you now appear to be on the other team.
Picture yourself in his position. You know that you are innocent and are looking desperately for some help. You file a pab that you have heard may help you. The pab administrator talks to the casino and comes back with a guilty verdict that you know for a fact is incorrect and is costing you a lot of money. This administrator never asks you another question or gives this a "trial". The decision is just made kangaroo court style.
How much more contact would you want with the person and how much do you think it would help? The premise that if he was innocent he would contact you makes no sense in this situation.

Furthermore, how can you know the things you claim? "he is telling the truth 100%", "I'm telling you with absolute certainty that this man is not a fraud", "I have seen all of his email correspondence". How would you know if you'd seen all his email or not? How can you be "100%" and "absolutely certain" of such things?

Because I actually know this person well. How do you know with 100% certainty that this player cheated the casino? Methinks you know with 0% certainty. can you even name a term that was broken? I am saying that you cannot. Period.
You have this: Player knows other players. Player uses same affiliate. Player plays same games and strategies (blackjack for goodness sakes - how much strategy do you need? You look off of a strategy card and play if you are unsure what the best move is, single player, no card counting, no losing to another player... no collusion possible). Again, this is normal. That is why they give refer a friend bonuses. Problem is, these players didnt even use a bonus to win with. Wow. What more could a casino want? Players coming in and depositing a ton and only using bonuses sporadically. Yeah, what a real band of colluders. LOL.. The more I think of it the more humorous it becomes.

No offense intended but everyone has their secrets and unless you are very, Very, VERY intimate with the guy it's hard to take your claims of full and complete knowledge of his affairs without a good, hefty pinch of salt. Most people would have trouble making such claims about their spouse never mind somebody from work.

I am not offended at all Max. I am glad you are taking part of this discussion and I see your point here. The problem is that I play online casinos. I talk with some of these people about how I play and where I play. Am I breaking casino rules? Heck NO, I am not. I do know that these are honest, good people. I cannot say that about the casinos in any way.

It makes no sense for these players to be fraudsters. Fraudsters go to casinos in waves and exploit signup bonuses or software glitches or some such thing and never really gamble their own money or risk anything. None of this happened with these players.

So why do YOU believe the casino so readily?

PS. Given the highly suspect nature of the OP's original claims I am changing the thread title from "Main Street stealing money" to "hurdle VS Main Street".

Again, bad title. It should be "all online players vs. Mainstreet stealing money". You are putting a pretty spin on it for mainstreet. It is more than just one player. Your title minimizes it.

Max, my intent isn't to sit here and pick at you or critique you. I am sure that you do a wonderful job usually. I am here to tell you that you have this one dead wrong. It is a disservice to the players on your board if you simply allow the casino to get away with what would be a HUGE heist. They simply cannot be allowed to keep all the deposits and all of the winnings from all players involved. That would be a huge scam job on players and would profit the casino immensely. If we allow this to happen then lets just allow all casinos to keep players deposits, winnings and anything else whenever they like with no consequence. It is hard enough to trust a casino but if there is nothing done when they steal like this then it is all pointless.

 

[greasemonkey]

FURTHERMORE, the 2 people mentioned in this post BOTH didn't use bonuses or play multiple player games. How could they have colluded?
Furthermore, GABLOCK deposited $2500 on October 31st of this year at main street casinos! $2300 of that was at Lasvegas Usa and his cashout was for $3000. No bonus was used. Hurdle had not even played at the mainstreet group until the following week. How was this a syndicate? How did they cheat the casino? How did they collude?

If this is true it makes for a great question.


.

 

[Nifty29]

*confused...again*
I assumed nifty was referring to Max with his, "I tend to put my faith in someone who knows..." statement. Did I mis-read it? (I think the paint fumes are starting to get to my brain...)

I was referring to Max

Mavin chose the path that many people do when they can't put forward a valid argument - personal insults.

As for always taking the casinos side - well the fact is I DON'T ALWAYS take their side, and secondly I play the odds I.e. the amount of times a player has turned out to be innocent when a PAB concludes they are a fraud is incredibly tiny.

WE don't have the evidence -Max does. So ,do you trust him or some blow-in?

If one has no confidence in the integrity of those that run this site, why would one want to be here in the first place?

As for the reference to justplays comments -pathetic IMO.

 

[Mavin1]

Still insisting his innocence Rob?

You're speaking of a persons friend, you have no idea of who they are or what these people are like. This statement was uncalled for and does not contribute anything of value to the thread.

I tend to put my faith in someone who knows both sides of the story and is privy to all the evidence.I wonder who the other syndicate members are?

The above statement is plainly just brown nosing. I doubt Maxd needs backup.
Put your faith in whom ever you wish, but you don't know anymore than the posters in this thread do.

I was referring to Max


I was fully aware of who you were referring to, but that was not the issues with my short post was about, it's making the statment, "Still insisting his innocence Rob". This is nothing more than taking a jab at a poster.




Mavin chose the path that many people do when they can't put forward a valid argument - personal insults.

As for always taking the casinos side - well the fact is I DON'T ALWAYS take their side, and secondly I play the odds I.e. the amount of times a player has turned out to be innocent when a PAB concludes they are a fraud is incredibly tiny.

WE don't have the evidence -Max does. So ,do you trust him or some blow-in?

If one has no confidence in the integrity of those that run this site, why would one want to be here in the first place?

As for the reference to justplays comments -pathetic IMO.

I have seen that only you are offended by personal insults directed at you, yet are totally disconnected from your own personal insults you give others.

If you wish to trust Maxd, that's all fine and dandy, but to take it that one step further and distrust someone you don't know and supposedly, you are also not privy to the details of the PAB's, to make any comment is very insensitive of you. You only need to show support in a postive manner to Maxd, if that is your desire.

There are times when you should remain neutral if you can't refrain from taking a jab, regarding the personal side of people.

And what I choose to believe or disbelieve, has no bearing on decisions that come down on this forum, but that's my business. But following behind Maxd and taking the jabs at posters is where you give integrity hear a shady appearance.

 

[maxd]

Not to stir the ka-ka or anything but I can see where Nifty is coming from on this. In spite of racefan's offhand "no offense intended" I've actually found his posts to be pretty disrespectful and disparaging of what we do here.

Because he disagrees with our conclusion in his friend's case racefan feels at liberty to say that our process is "laughable", that the "kangaroo court" decision was made with "0% certainty" and no evidence, that no Terms were broken and therefore the decision is groundless. He further goes on to tell me how we should be managing the site (thread re-names, etc) when he clearly has little or no knowledge of how we typically handle these things. Etc etc. In other words pretty much a full-on attempt to discredit me, the PAB process and the site itself.

If Nifty saw this situation the way I do and if he respects the site as I believe he does then his step-up in our defense makes perfectly good sense. And, as it happens, it is much appreciated.

As to the case at hand I can say with great certainty that racefan is pretty much talking out of his arse because (a) the evidence in this case is actually quite extensive and persuasive, (b) his in-depth knowledge of what the player(s) in question have done and how they've done it is pretty questionable in itself and (c) his own description of the player's activities pretty much defines the casino's objections to this player and his associates which the casino identified to them from the very beginning, namely:

any individual or group of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings. This includes, but is not limited to, opening multiple accounts in an attempt to claim the initial deposit bonus multiple times.

racefan may find this case and how we've conducted our business "laughable" and "funny" but I don't. Neither, apparently, does Nifty which was kind of his point in posting what he did, if I read this right. As I've said, I do appreciate it, if for no other reason than he knew full well that stepping up and saying so would catch him some stick and little else.

 

[racefanrob]

any individual or group of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings. This includes, but is not limited to, opening multiple accounts in an attempt to claim the initial deposit bonus multiple times.

ummmm... ok then, if this is what you are saying they did then you are certainly mistaken. They broke NONE of the above terms. Not one.

A) They did not defraud the casino in any way
B) They did not engage in syndicate betting as their bets did not help one another in any way, nor did they play at the same time, the same game or any such phooey.
C) They did not open multiple accounts in order to claim the initial bonus. Again, THEY WEREN'T EVEN PLAYING WITH A BONUS. NEITHER ONE OF THEM!!! GAblock wasn't even signed up at the casinos nor playing when hurdle made his cashout.

They both talked to the casino security directly and they both have sent in all documents necessary. Gablock was even paid once in the past. They know he is not a fraud. Your claims that they broke a term are what then? what term was broken?

This is screwy. I AM sorry that you feel offended. Truly my intention is not to discredit you nor the pab service. Unless, of course you simply will take a casinos word for it and end it at that. Claiming that these players are frauds with overwhelming evidence that they are not.

You have not in the least stated how they have broken any terms. You just keep saying they are frauds. Clearly, I know that they are not and so does mainstreet as mainstreet has approved all of their docs and spoken to them. Try looking up a different term because the one you are quoting is surely not being broken by these men.

 

[jetset]

You're such an ass kisser Nifty, I have never seen a regular person be so defensive for the casinos as you are. It is beyond ridiculous and FYI, Just Play pegged you right with F M thing.

Is this the level of posting we really want to see here?

I have to say I was equally disappointed, not to mention surprised at justplay's earlier personal insults directed at the same member, although I refrained from posting then under the mistaken hope that this trend would not continue.

Nifty is, in my opinion, one of the more balanced and knowledgeable members of this forum - certainly not a supporter of any one side of the player - casino divide in voicing his perspectives.

Regarding the Main Street issue. My initial reaction was that racefan not only knows an awful lot of detail about other peoples' action for an onlooker, but perhaps protesteth too much.

However, I am now intrigued as to what these folks were doing illegally if (as racefan claims) they played seperately, on single player games, did not take bonuses, provided acceptable documentation to security and in one case apparently had an acceptable deposit and payout record.

Syndicates are an ever-present danger to operators, and I understand the need to deny them any information that they can use to perfect their fraudulent activities....but if racefan's claims are true it is difficult to see just how a fraud was perpetrated in this case.

Can Max perhaps at least confirm that racefan's claims are economical with the truth or are in some way incomplete?

 

[maxd]

... if (as racefan claims) they played seperately, on single player games, did not take bonuses, provided acceptable documentation to security and in one case apparently had an acceptable deposit and payout record. ... Can Max perhaps at least confirm that racefan's claims are economical with the truth or are in some way incomplete?

I can confirm with 100% certainty that racefan's claims regarding the player(s) are incomplete and in error.

I am not going to jeopardize the casino's security procedures by revealing details. That leaves folks have two choices here: either (1) you accept that in the course of investigating this case evidence was provided by the casino that we feel justifies our decision here, or (2) you do not.

Personally I have an extremely difficult time imagining how anyone outside the loop has a clue what evidence was disclosed in this case. A player's buddy saying "there is no evidence because he is my friend" is a (woefully biased) opinion, not to mention pretty bent logic. If you add that to the balance against what I have seen as real evidence in this case -- not some bystander's imaginings -- then you see it for what it is: not relevant.

If racefan is what he says he is -- just a player's pal -- then fine, he knows that said player actually exists and has shown him some stuff. What that actually contributes to the case is pretty much ziltch.

I repeat, the casino's primary charge is that "any individual or group of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings." (see

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) The casino people have provided ample and satisfactory evidence of such activity therefore the charge is justified. "Game Over" AFAIC.

 

[gaydave]

Don't provide details then.

Just provide a reasonable explanation of what rules were broken. Provide what racefanrob is lying about.
I think that nothing is being answered here. Absolutely you have not stated a rule that was broken. If you think that these players knew each other and engaged in similar strategies to try and win money then that is outlandish.

Jetset and others have asked you how did they collude/defraud/cheat if they didn't play at the same time, didn't use bonuses and only played single player games, had dox approved, have payment history, signed up at different times etc, etc, etc

This seems very much like a kangaroo court. Are you seriously saying that you just expect us to believe you (who believes a casino) and not believe these other people? Based on what? They have given every reason to doubt they did something wrong. They havent appeared to have broken any terms.

Did these players hack the software? Did these players not really deposit the amounts that are claimed? Did they actually use a bonus to cashout and are now lying about it? Did they actually play multiplayer games and lie about that? Did their bets actually help each other somehow? Did they really not have dox approved and payment history made?

All you have to do is intimate that and everyone will be satisfied save the players who have been banned.

 

[maxd]

... Are you seriously saying that you just expect us to believe you ... and not believe these other people?

Yes, I am. If you have no trust in me and Bryan and the Pitch-A-Bitch service we offer, and by extension the site in general, then we haven't got much to talk about, do we? Go somewhere else where you do trust them.

... Absolutely you have not stated a rule that was broken.

I have done exactly that, more than once. Try reading the last paragraph of my previous post (https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hurdle-vs-main-street.41410/) again. Follow the link to the casino's Terms, scroll down to the bottom, read the bolded bit that says:

IMPORTANT: Any individual or groups of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings. This includes, but is not limited to, opening multiple accounts in an attempt to claim the initial deposit bonus multiple times.

If you cannot, or will not, read what is written then you need more aid than I am in a position to offer.

I should add that this business about someone's documents being approved and/or being paid once, etc, are not very compelling. How would you imagine a fraudster gets caught? By committing fraud, yes? As in "fraudster does stuff and (perhaps some time later) gets caught". That's how it works. So basically the "was approved once" thing is simply a description of a perp in action, until they are identified and nabbed. How is that an argument in their defense? It isn't, hence irrelevant.

 

[Nifty29]

Did these players hack the software? Did these players not really deposit the amounts that are claimed? Did they actually use a bonus to cashout and are now lying about it? Did they actually play multiplayer games and lie about that? Did their bets actually help each other somehow? Did they really not have dox approved and payment history made?

The only thing that providing such details (and others) would achieve is to assist active/potential fraudsters to hone their skills.

One thing that nobody seems to understand about fraud etc is that we all pay for it at the end of the day. Higher bonus wagering, more restricted games, tougher ID requirements, lower RTP - these are all a direct result of players defrauding casinos.

Do some casinos defraud players? Of course they do! However, these outfits are usually well-known (around here anyway) and are avoided by any player with an ounce of sense.

It is a fact that the large majority of cases where casinos accuse a player of fraud, there is fraud. Don't rely on what I say, ask Max who has been dealing with this stuff for years. The PAB stats do not lie.

@Racefanrob - your friend might be a good bloke, and a good mate, but nobody knows everything about someone. I thought my oldest brother was the coolest guy I'd ever met....he had a great job, lovely wife, 3 kids, owned 3 houses and donated many hours and much money to charity. I looked up to him. What I didn't know is that he had been having affairs for about 10 years and had another child as a result - and he even had the cheek to put them up in one of his houses! He also organised with his lawyer that his wife would get next to nothing if he was ever found out and had to divorce etc.

There is other stuff but the point is that what you see is not always what you get. Standing up for a mate is admirable - just be careful you don't end up looking like a goose.

@Mavin - I was going to address all the things you said, but in the overall scheme of my life your insults mean squat. You aren't worth my time.

 

[Tengil]

It seems you know nothing about the details of this case. There's basically zero similarity to the Rushmore/Embalu issue(s). What is the purpose of such empty, fact-free speculation?

Its in their interest to provide false information. A joker casino that takes some 2 weeks to pay cashouts and offers no incentives to play as a syndicate against will always be highly suspicious to me.
Syndicate betting can be advantageous in certain cases but cant think of a single reason there would have been any such advantage in doing this against these casinos.

Reason I mentioned Rushmore was that they misrepresented their "evidence" to you.

And if they arent going to refund the deposits then its theft.

 

[maxd]

@Nifty, @Mavin, etc: guys, this is not the place for your little jabs and tussles. It's poor spectator sport and disrespectful to the topic in progress, so please stop. Or, as Pappy used to say, "take it outside!"

Its in their interest to provide false information. ... Reason I mentioned Rushmore was that they misrepresented their "evidence" to you.

The Rushmore case was not misrepresentation of evidence, it was a case where an innocent player was roped in with a bunch of guilty ones. A "dolphin in the tuna net" situation where there was evidence against the player in question just that it turned out to be insufficient to justify their conclusions. The real problem was that they wouldn't revisit the case and re-evaluate the evidence. Nor did we for that matter, at least not soon enough to make a difference. See here for details. As I've said, that has no similarity to the case at hand.

As far as false evidence being in someone's interests I would say that applies as much to players as it does to anyone else. You begin with the assumption that the casino will do this and make statements based on that assumption. Therein lies the problem.

My process is to ask the casino for evidence and evaluate it when I see it. In three years and 1000+ cases of doing this I have seen exceedingly few where a casino blatantly falsified evidence, maybe a fraction of one percent. That is no grounds to assume it's done on a regular basis. To make such an assumption is misguided.

Finally, confiscating deposits in fraud cases is not theft since players are warned in the Terms that if they are caught exactly this will be done. What it is is a powerful deterrent for fraudsters to risk their money but that's not something that should concern legitimate players.

If you look at it from the casino's point of view not confiscating deposits from fraudsters is basically negligence because it simply encourages the fraudsters: if they suffer no loss then the odds are very much in their favour to simply adapt and try again. Confiscating deposits is the only punitive measure the casinos have at their disposal and as such I believe their right to use it needs to be protected.

 

[Nifty29]

Fair call Max. I will control myself.

 

[jetset]

I can confirm with 100% certainty that racefan's claims regarding the player(s) are incomplete and in error.

I am not going to jeopardize the casino's security procedures by revealing details. That leaves folks have two choices here: either (1) you accept that in the course of investigating this case evidence was provided by the casino that we feel justifies our decision here, or (2) you do not.

I've been a member of this site for long enough to respect Bryan, Max and their extensive experience and contacts in dealing with fraudsters - both at casino and player level.

Speaking personally, this statement is good enough for me.

 

[ksech]

I guess what I am not understanding about this case is the fact that this site provides a FREE service to the players. I'm sure Bryan/Max spend hrs/days/weeks and even sometimes months pursuing their data to base their decisions on. Why can't people understand that Max is NOT able to commercialize the facts of the case here?

Do you really want the knowledge "aired" so more fraudsters can fine-tune their agendas? As Nifty stated, every fraudster makes it tougher for the average joe. This can be seen through high WRs, whacked out bonus terms, bonus bannings, etc.

When I read the opening post for this thread I felt there was something missing, that the OP had left out some important tidbit. So when the buddy came along declaring the OP was being robbed by the casino and the PAB process, I knew we weren't "hearing" everything.

This is in the genreal rules and regulations for Sun Palace Casino...
2.Only verifiable accounts with valid email and home addresses will be credited. The company reserves the right to request verification of your identity at any time.

Most of the T&Cs I've read, state somewhere in the mumbo jumbo, that the casino can at ANYTIME request verification. You may already be verified, but perhaps in this case with such a large withdrawal, the casino requested a re-verification? When the OP failed to/ or gave conflicting ID, he was caught out by the casino (at least this is what I am reading/ comprehending from this thread).

Also, the OP stated he had opened multiple accounts within the group. The OP also states he deposited approximately $3250 between LasVegasUSA and Sun Palace casino on the same day (can I have a job like yours please!?!), perhaps this is the red flag the casino group noticed? Then Max states , "I had offered to forward a final plea to the casino people if hurdle provided one. He did not. In fact I received exactly zero communications from him after he submitted his PAB in spite of the fact that I emailed him twice. For someone so completely innocent he certainly was tight-lipped throughout the process."

Maybe the OP didn't receive the emails because they went to his spam instead? I would be interested to hear what the OP has to say in his own defense right now, instead of through his mediator (just my own opinion)...

Just as a side note, I'd like to add...
IF I ever have the need for "legal" help concerning a problem with a casino, I most definitely would look to Bryan/Max for help as I have no legal expertise at all and wouldn't even know where to start. I trust their judgements, as they have waded through all the mire, for FREE, and are way more experienced at this sort of thing than the average joe.

 

[Tengil]

@Nifty, @Mavin, etc: guys, this is not the place for your little jabs and tussles. It's poor spectator sport and disrespectful to the topic in progress, so please stop. Or, as Pappy used to say, "take it outside!"



The Rushmore case was not misrepresentation of evidence, it was a case where an innocent player was roped in with a bunch of guilty ones. A "dolphin in the tuna net" situation where there was evidence against the player in question just that it turned out to be insufficient to justify their conclusions. The real problem was that they wouldn't revisit the case and re-evaluate the evidence. Nor did we for that matter, at least not soon enough to make a difference. See here for details. As I've said, that has no similarity to the case at hand.

As far as false evidence being in someone's interests I would say that applies as much to players as it does to anyone else. You begin with the assumption that the casino will do this and make statements based on that assumption. Therein lies the problem.

My process is to ask the casino for evidence and evaluate it when I see it. In three years and 1000+ cases of doing this I have seen exceedingly few where a casino blatantly falsified evidence, maybe a fraction of one percent. That is no grounds to assume it's done on a regular basis. To make such an assumption is misguided.

Finally, confiscating deposits in fraud cases is not theft since players are warned in the Terms that if they are caught exactly this will be done. What it is is a powerful deterrent for fraudsters to risk their money but that's not something that should concern legitimate players.

If you look at it from the casino's point of view not confiscating deposits from fraudsters is basically negligence because it simply encourages the fraudsters: if they suffer no loss then the odds are very much in their favour to simply adapt and try again. Confiscating deposits is the only punitive measure the casinos have at their disposal and as such I believe their right to use it needs to be protected.

Whatever they have it in their T&Cs or not its pure and simple theft IMO. Its not like you get a fair trial against casinos.
If they are going to confiscate (steal) deposits then the accused player deserves a fair trial where the evidence against him is presented so that he could defend himself against said evidence. Edit: none of the Mainstreet casinos have it in their T&Cs that they can steal your deposits.

Just shows what kind of scum some online casinos are

 

[Casinomeister]

I'm just jumping into this now, and I have one thing to say - oh what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive.

I've seen the same evidence and correspondence that Max has seen. And to make matters more complicated/complete are past PABs from some of the other accounts that are being identified here. There was a player syndicate issue from last summer that we didn't tie the loose ends on. Some of those accounts are reappearing with the Mainstream group.

 

[maxd]

Edit: none of the Mainstreet casinos have it in their T&Cs that they can steal your deposits.

any individual or group of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings.

They say "forfeit", you say "steal". When it comes to fraudsters and their deposits I say "whatever".

 

[racefanrob]

Do you really want the knowledge "aired" so more fraudsters can fine-tune their agendas? As Nifty stated, every fraudster makes it tougher for the average joe. This can be seen through high WRs, whacked out bonus terms, bonus bannings, etc.

Once again, there was no bonus involved. These guys cashed out when no bonus was involved. Not sure how that may cause anybody different WRs and such.

This is in the genreal rules and regulations for Sun Palace Casino...
2.Only verifiable accounts with valid email and home addresses will be credited. The company reserves the right to request verification of your identity at any time.

Most of the T&Cs I've read, state somewhere in the mumbo jumbo, that the casino can at ANYTIME request verification. You may already be verified, but perhaps in this case with such a large withdrawal, the casino requested a re-verification? When the OP failed to/ or gave conflicting ID, he was caught out by the casino (at least this is what I am reading/ comprehending from this thread).

No is what hurdle is saying. Never asked for more from him after they called and spoke to him.

Also, the OP stated he had opened multiple accounts within the group. The OP also states he deposited approximately $3250 between LasVegasUSA and Sun Palace casino on the same day (can I have a job like yours please!?!), perhaps this is the red flag the casino group noticed? Then Max states , "I had offered to forward a final plea to the casino people if hurdle provided one. He did not. In fact I received exactly zero communications from him after he submitted his PAB in spite of the fact that I emailed him twice. For someone so completely innocent he certainly was tight-lipped throughout the process."

Maybe the OP didn't receive the emails because they went to his spam instead? I would be interested to hear what the OP has to say in his own defense right now, instead of through his mediator (just my own opinion)...

We all would like to hear what the OP has to say I'm sure. Trouble is that Max banned him before he had a chance for any such public trial. So, I am acting as a conduit for him.

 

[ergopro]

You might ask hurdle to contact Steve Russo at Gambling Grumbles? As it seems that there won't be any further communication with max regarding the PAB.
And no, this comment isn't meant to be any way negative regarding Casinomeister or PAB process in general

 

[silcnlayc]

maxd: Finally, confiscating deposits in fraud cases is not theft since players are warned in the Terms that if they are caught exactly this will be done. What it is is a powerful deterrent for fraudsters to risk their money but that's not something that should concern legitimate players.

If guilty as charged , I am glad to see someone other than me thinks this is an appropriate move. No player should get a dime back if they did bad...(I have always believed confiscation of funds would deter a lot of abuse including ANY player using a bonus should also have their monies kept if they choose to ignore T&C's to try and get one over on the casino. No free ride IMO)

Maxd: What it is is a powerful deterrent for fraudsters to risk their money but that's not something that should concern legitimate players.

if they suffer no loss then the odds are very much in their favour to simply adapt and try again. Confiscating deposits is the only punitive measure the casinos have at their disposal and as such I believe their right to use it needs to be protected.

Yep, yep and yep! Not so lonely in my corner anymore


.

 

[racefanrob]

Yes, I am. If you have no trust in me and Bryan and the Pitch-A-Bitch service we offer, and by extension the site in general, then we haven't got much to talk about, do we? Go somewhere else where you do trust them.

Nice. That really will clear up everything won't it? "Either blindly believe me or go somewhere else where you blindly believe them but NEVER question me"

I am quesstioning you and will continue to in this case. You say you "have all the evidence" Really? Hurdle nor Gablock was ever contacted back by you to ask for clarity or asked any question at all. What kind of investigation is that?
It's like a judge asking the plaintiff for his testimony then making a decision without examining the defense.

Taking the casinos word (talk about woefully biased!!!) at face value is questionable at best.

MPORTANT: Any individual or groups of individuals attempting to defraud the casino or engaging in any type of syndicate betting will forfeit their deposits, bonuses and winnings. This includes, but is not limited to, opening multiple accounts in an attempt to claim the initial deposit bonus multiple times.

I have done exactly that, more than once. Try reading the last paragraph of my previous post (https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hurdle-vs-main-street.41410/) again. Follow the link to the casino's Terms, scroll down to the bottom, read the bolded bit that says:


If you cannot, or will not, read what is written then you need more aid than I am in a position to offer.

Wow, sarcasm. Really? Very appropriate. Nice again.

anyways,
If you actually have 2 seperate VERIFIED players AND these players are not even members at the casino at the same time nor make bets at the same time AND these players are cashing out without use of bonus then the above term was not broken. Period.

They didn't open multiple accts to take multiple initial deposit bonuses. Nor did they just take the initial bonus and never play again. There was no issue with bonuses at all as a matter of fact. The 2 players in question aren't having an issue with bonuses. They deposited a lot and were not using a bonus at time of cashout.
They didn't use "syndicate" betting. That would be betting at the same time or in multiplayer games or some such thing. They didn't play at the casinos together, they werent even members at the same time. That makes it impossible to syndicate bet. Syndicate betting wouldn't matter anyways in single player games. Regardless, these guys didn't do any of that stuff. NOR did thy try to defraud the casino as is evidenced by their approved documents and faxforms and their approved payment history.

So here we are again. Your saying they broke a term that makes no sense.

I should add that this business about someone's documents being approved and/or being paid once, etc, are not very compelling. How would you imagine a fraudster gets caught? By committing fraud, yes? As in "fraudster does stuff and (perhaps some time later) gets caught". That's how it works. So basically the "was approved once" thing is simply a description of a perp in action, until they are identified and nabbed. How is that an argument in their defense? It isn't, hence irrelevant.

Well it is because you are saying they are either fraud (not real people) which is being proved to not be the case with all the information that the casino could gather and that their ewallet could gather and that their banks could gather OR you are saying they are opening multiple accounts in order to claim multiple initial bonuses, which is shown not to be the case by all the same information above, OR you are saying they are using some sort of betting scheme in unison that helps each other whicha AGAIN, has proved to not be possible as they didn't play together or even during the same time periods. That is why it is relevant.

What doesn't appear to be relevant is that term you are claiming is being broken or your stated assumption that casinos don't lie but players do. It is amazing from my end watching this happen. Usually I would probably just chalk it up to some fraudsters being caught out. This time I know a couple of the complainers and it is very obvious that they haven't broken a single term in the casino yet you are saying guilty as charged. This shakes my trust of the process to its core.

On a last note. These guys say that even though you feel that you already have all the information necessary (from the casino's side) and never asked for it that they are willing to email screen shots of their ewx accts, send in any documentation, answer any question and provide any information possible.

If guilty as charged , I am glad to see someone other than me thinks this is an appropriate move. No player should get a dime back if they did bad...(I have always believed this, and I still believe ANY player using a bonus should also have their monies kept if they choose to ignore T&C's to try and get one over on the casino. No free ride IMO)

Yep, yep and yep! Not so lonely in my corner anymore


.

for the millionth time. No bonus was used. Hence the "non-bonus issues" part of the forum.

but silcnlayc, I do agree with you myself. I always think if the term says "don't play gameX" then the player goes ahead and plays gameX then they should have all the monies kept. This situation is that there is no bonus used.

You might ask hurdle to contact Steve Russo at Gambling Grumbles? As it seems that there won't be any further communication with max regarding the PAB.
And no, this comment isn't meant to be any way negative regarding Casinomeister or PAB process in general

I will pass this on. Thank you ergopro.

 

[gaydave]

I have done exactly that, more than once. Try reading the last paragraph of my previous post (https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hurdle-vs-main-street.41410/) again. Follow the link to the casino's Terms, scroll down to the bottom, read the bolded bit that says:


If you cannot, or will not, read what is written then you need more aid than I am in a position to offer.

Max, I'm not trying to make you look bad here or be disrespectful. All of these questions are more than legitimate. Being smarmy with me isn't going to accomplish a whole bunch other than maybe making you feel better.

I've read this entire thread twice. It seems like a difficult issue. Maybe it would make it more clear and still not be too revealing if maybe you could be specific into what part of the term did they break? What I mean by that is are you saying that they have "somehow" (without being specific of course) figured a way to bet together at different times to gaurantee a win without risking their own funds perhaps? Was their chargebacks of some sort maybe?

It just seems that this rule you are claiming to be broken is like the big F.U. clause in bonus terms that casinos try to use when they don't like your "spirit of play' or "bonus abuse". If it's true that these guys cashed out without a bonus then they just found another big F.U. clause and are trying to use it. With what evidence is being given, it would appear that no signup bonus was used here. It also would appear that this is a gigantic F.U. clause that is being implemented without a real strong logical conclusion as to how the fraud or collusion took place. Unless they aren't real people (docs though kinda prove it) and if they aren't real then what the heck were they doing gambling without a bonus unless they were underaged or from an area that isn't allowed to play?

so, just at least can we know which part of that term was broken without going into specifics? It may help ease everyones mind here.