GVC - Coral and Galacasino showing the wrong RTP to players, possible breach of license

[thr0b]

Look at it as scale. One person isn’t that bothered. Ten people probably aren’t.

But this is one of the biggest groups in the UK, who are actively pushing P&G games in promos and as such we can assume hundreds of thousands of people have been ripped off.

It’s the same as finding something you’ve bought from ASDA has been scanned twice. A tin of beans. Not worth getting a refund.

But what if it were ASDA policy to scan something twice for every shopper? Nobody is realistically asking for a refund of 50p for a can of beans a week down the line. But that’s thousands of extra cash in their pockets. And they’re still selling beans.

 

[ESCJAMIE]

Look at it as scale. One person isn’t that bothered. Ten people probably aren’t.

But this is one of the biggest groups in the UK, who are actively pushing P&G games in promos and as such we can assume hundreds of thousands of people have been ripped off.

It’s the same as finding something you’ve bought from ASDA has been scanned twice. A tin of beans. Not worth getting a refund.

But what if it were ASDA policy to scan something twice for every shopper? Nobody is realistically asking for a refund of 50p for a can of beans a week down the line. But that’s thousands of extra cash in their pockets. And they’re still selling beans.

The mad thing is even if they put the true RTP they would still get as much traffic as they do so I not sure why they have lied, unless the players are us lot are have knowledge about gambling and RTP it wouldn't make much difference to them I wouldn't think, I would love for them to be a survey asking players if they know what RTP means and how it effects a game I be shocked if it was more then 5% of the general population of players would understands what it means

 

[colinsunderland]

"Misleading is misleading." I think there is massive scale when it comes to things what are misleading. Not everything misleading is a bad as another thing

Im not going to carry on trying to explain and justify my view on this, No-One else has to agree with me, For ME this is not a big crime as someone of you are trying to make it out to be, It is illegal it is misleading it is wrong and trashy I fully agree and would support action against these casinos . BUT Compared to other things casinos how done I find this to be no where near as bad as its being made out to be. Im not going to comment again about this, I have gave my view and it is MY view I fully respect everyone elses view on this. After all we all have different levels of what scale we think certain things are wrong,

I wondered when the first person would post they don't care about RTP, you're right, thats your opinion, but you are missing the point.

They are breaching their license, and even if someone accepts it was a mistake, the fact they are still doing so after 5 days, shows they don't care, and in my opinion, is no longer a mistake. If one of the largest groups in the world are happy to breach their licence over something like this, then what other shady shit are they doing to cheat customers?

Out of interest, what other things that UK licensed casinos have done, are much worse than this?

 

[mack341]

"Misleading is misleading." I think there is massive scale when it comes to things what are misleading. Not everything misleading is a bad as another thing

Im not going to carry on trying to explain and justify my view on this, No-One else has to agree with me, For ME this is not a big crime as someone of you are trying to make it out to be, It is illegal it is misleading it is wrong and trashy I fully agree and would support action against these casinos . BUT Compared to other things casinos how done I find this to be no where near as bad as its being made out to be. Im not going to comment again about this, I have gave my view and it is MY view I fully respect everyone elses view on this. After all we all have different levels of what scale we think certain things are wrong,

I understand where you're coming from Jamie, no one's judging you in a bad light for taking a differing view, that's what makes a forum interesting. [may have to edit this ...I'm certainly not though, even if I disagree regarding the seriousness]

At this stage we don't know why it happened, if it's an innocent mistake then it would be hard to get worked up about it, but if it was intentional that moves it into a totally different league. Coral do at least need to explain to the ukgc how it occurred.

If the ukgc were thorough about issues like this, they might also get round to looking into other things you've mentioned like the dream catcher wheel. It's reassuring to players to know everything is checked by the ukgc and above board.

Slot makers offering different rtp versions on different servers etc.. could be a problem to players if it isn't checked.

 

[thr0b]

The mad thing is even if they put the true RTP they would still get as much traffic as they do so I not sure why they have lied, unless the players are us lot are have knowledge about gambling and RTP it wouldn't make much difference to them I wouldn't think, I would love for them to be a survey asking players if they know what RTP means and how it effects a game I be shocked if it was more then 5% of the general population of players would understands what it means

I don't think they've deliberately lied as such. It's almost certainly an admin error which should've been rectified at the first report. But the problem with big companies is that it takes forever for tiny, simple amendments to be fixed by anyone, or even to get to the right department to apply the fix.

 

[colinsunderland]

I don't think they've deliberately lied as such. It's almost certainly an admin error which should've been rectified at the first report. But the problem with big companies is that it takes forever for tiny, simple amendments to be fixed by anyone, or even to get to the right department to apply the fix.

You also have to look at the loss limit too, and I do think the UKGC will jump on that more than the RTP. The loss limits were brought in as part of the responsible gambling rules, and we've all seen how they fine casinos for breaches of the RG policy. I don't think they will be impressed by customer service telling customers they have more chance to win if they stake higher either, but again, thats RG.

I can't actually work out how that happened. As far as I was aware, the games provider was in control of which version of games were served to which area, and was usually done by IP, but as PlaynGo supply plenty of UK casinos with games with the loss limits settings, it seems Coral have over ridden that safeguard and are using games meant for outside the UK. I'm struggling to see how that can be a mistake tbh, as surely that requires someone to manually over ride the PnG settings.

 

[Lemon]

Meh, 96 or 94 you're still going to lose your money either way eventually. At least on 94 you'll lose it quickly and then you might go out and get some fresh air or get some jobs done around the house, a far more rewarding way of spending free time, rather than hunched over your keyboard dribbling money away on Pimped. They're doing you a favour taking your money a bit quicker

Coral will just turn around and say some admin guy who normally takes care of this sort of stuff has been off on holiday and what with ICE and 'this flu going around' no-one has been able to double-check that the RTP% info matches properly on a handful of slots among the hundreds they host on their site. But thanks for bringing it to our attention and we'll get it all fixed as a matter of urgency. They'll take a slap on the wrist, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

However, you're all missing the most important question of this whole episode, and that is 'Did Chopley's girlfriend get laid last night?' or did her silhouette spend all Valentine's evening standing in the living-room doorway watching him upload videos to Youtube? 'Chooooooppers...come to bed...!'

Ten minutes later...

...'THERE! RIGHT THERE! OHHH YES! SEE THAT!? THAT HELP FILE SAYS 96, BUT THE SERVER TEXT WINDOW SAYS ONLY 94! Put the kettle on love, I'll take these bastards to the fucking cleaners!'

 

[shadow123]

The simple answer is to force all the casinos to show prominantly the rtp of every game on the game icon,
if it ommitted or incorrect it should be considered a breach of licence and an automatic fine.
On most sites you cant open the games without being logged in and have no way of knowing what the setting
is which makes comparing different sites difficult( which is what they want).Been going on far too
long along with reversals and should be so simple to implement

 

[EkJR]

This casino are scamming players out of their money. Not sure what's not so serious about that? This would have continued as well but for the diligence of members on here(and in Russia). Can someone do it on Jumpman games? They would be my bet for another scam artist!

 

[mack341]

I'm looking forward to watching Degsy Degworth's video on this later, I like it when Chopley gets stuck into an issue involving the slotting world and potential misdemeanours, I think he's the only person on youtube creating this sort of content and doing it in an interesting and enjoyable way.

 

[Mouche12]

"But thanks for bringing it to our attention and we'll get it all fixed as a matter of urgency."

To which the UKGC could reply: But it WAS brought to your attention several times and you did NOT get it all fixed as a matter of urgency.

They should be fined.

 

[Roedgaard72]

I'm looking forward to watching Degsy Degworth's video on this later, I like it when Chopley get's stuck into an issue involving the slotting world and potential misdemeanours, I think he's the only person on youtube creating this sort of content and doing it in an interesting and enjoyable way.

What makes his videos interesting, is the fact that it comes from the heart and he takes an interest in the subjects. Without mentioning names, but as soon as it is all about money and advertising it just goes south and doesn`t seem genuine.

 

[bamberfishcake]

I would love for them to be a survey asking players if they know what RTP means and how it effects a game I be shocked if it was more then 5% of the general population of players would understands what it means

I think you would be shocked.

Here is what appears on google when you search 'best paying slot games':

A small mention but nevertheless a mention of RTP in the second listing.......no big deal but if you scroll slightly down..........

'Whats that RTP thingy mean?' would be my first thought when seeing this as a new player.

I think people are becoming more savvy then we realise maybe. This thread alone will go some way to educating players.

What does a more educated client base mean? A better service and delivery from casinos because the need will be driven.

 

[dealer wins]

Maybe suggest to them to remove a couple of Aces out of their blackjack decks, after all its the same as this cheating!!

 

[ESCJAMIE]

I think you would be shocked.

Here is what appears on google when you search 'best paying slot games':

View attachment 123193

A small mention but nevertheless a mention of RTP in the second listing.......no big deal but if you scroll slightly down..........

View attachment 123194

'Whats that RTP thingy mean?' would be my first thought when seeing this as a new player.

I think people are becoming more savvy then we realise maybe. This thread alone will go some way to educating players.

What does a more educated client base mean? A better service and delivery from casinos because the need will be driven.

But how many "Normal typical" Players would google this thou ?

It would be interesting for sure to see if this went viral in the news how causal players would react to it.

 

[shadow123]

I got fed up with losing at VS and moved to pastures new ie Ladbrokes and Corals, had no problems
with either at first apart from not winning at Corals, then Corals did an update which actively encouraged
players to deposit when logging on and when the balance got low while playing a game,on top of that
they blatently introduced an internal review policy on all withdrawals to increase the number of reversals.
Think anything they have done has been deliberate and i dont think the rtp thing was a mistake.
If I were the UKGC i would be seriously looking at aspects of their operations.

Bit off topic but after SE at Corals ( not something I did lightly) I opened a new account at Grosvenor
and revived an old one at Mecca,Cant believe how professional they are,when setting up the accounts
I asked what documents they needed for verification, both said dont worry you have been auto verified.
The big test came at Grosvernor when withdrew a very lucky 5k win, thats normally when problems arise
but no questions asked and the wthdrawal hit the bank as normal.
There can be a bit of a wait getting to live chat but they were very on the ball,very polite and sorted the questions out quickly.They are not the fastest at processing withdrawals about 2 day to hit the bank.
overall they are the best casinos I have played at

 

[mack341]

As a person new to slots I became aware of rtp via the old betfair site, not knowing which slot to choose to play I'd click on the info button next to each slot, this would give you a brief explanation of the game and the rtp percentage was highlighted, I then chose games with the higher rating.

It's probably because it's largely hidden from sight at the bottom of the help file that many casual players don't know much about it, if an explanation like dunover's on the typical effect of rtp, was also provided on the casino sites I'm sure players would take a stronger interest in it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

These PnG games are massively popular though so that adds a lot to the issue, it undermines confidence and needs to be gotten to the bottom of.

If the forum just gave out a collective 'meh', I think that would send out a bad signal to other casinos and slot makers regarding rtp and most players interest in it being maintained as high as possible, not reduced.

Going to be interesting to see if or how the ukgc respond, they've been keen to issue fines for SOW shortcomings etc.., will something player related like this attract censure or strong criticism

Just to give you an indication of the amount of money we are talking about. This are the stats for BoD from about half a dozen of casinos for just 4 hours!!!!! Half a million wagered!!! At 4% house margin that is $20,000 revenue.

Now, think of having 2% extra margin on that, that is an extra $10,000 in just four hours. And just for BoD in 4 HOURS!!!

I would venture to say, PnG overall we could talk millions in extra revenue every month.

 

[shadow123]

As mentioned probably 5% of players know or care what rtp,s are or there effect,the rest will happily
play on tigers,play and go and other providers game who offer variable settings and wonder why
they are getting low playtime and losing consistantly putting it down to bad luck.
The casinos play on this ignorance and while they are earning the revenue they could not care less.
One day they might realise that every game has an optimum rtp,too high and the take will be insufficiant
too low and the again the take will be be crap due to players get fed up and stop playing them.
Somewhere in between is the optimum setting where the player feel they are getting decent play and
stick with the game.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I know some saw the posts I made in the other thread, but this is to just follow up on that, naming the group involved and to show the evidence.

Back in December I noticed Coral had reduced the RTP on their PlaynGo games. This was shown correctly in the PnG help file, that showed the 94% RTP setting. I posted about the reduction here

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At the time I asked live chat what games they had reduced the RTP on, to save me going through each one individually. This was their answer

Me (9:22:19 PM): ok, thank you. Can I get a list of which games (slots) you have recently reduced the RTP on please, or if on all slots by certain providers, which providers. The last agent said every game, but unless you are using pirate NetEnt and Novomatic games to name two, that isn't possible as they don't offer different RTP versions.

Beckey (9:23:02 PM):We have not had any game that have been reduced on the RTP Colin.

(Little edit here to say that was a lie, the RTP was set at 96%, so they had reduced them. If they hadn't as the CS rep says, then they have been showing the wrong RTP since September at least).
and to show the RTP was on the 94% setting, I asked what the RTP was on Book of Dead.

Jordan (9:43:31 PM):The RTP is currently at 94.25% on that game

At that point, all was (almost) fine, as the PlaynGo help files were still being served and showing the correct RTP. Coral (and Gala) also have files known as knowledgebase files that have the game information, along with the RTP, these were incorrect at that point as they were still showing the 96% RTP levels, but as the correct RTP was shown on the PnG help files it wasn't too much of a problem, although should have been corrected. Below is an image of a PlaynGo help file if anyone doesn't know what they are

View attachment 123164

Fast forward to mid January, Coral migrated over to the GVC platform for their games. At this time, and this is where the problem starts, they decided to remove the PnG help files from within the game and replace them with the knowledgebase files. This would be fine, if they had updated the RTP in those files, but they didn't, so since the platform migration, all PlaynGo games have been showing the incorrect RTP. That is a breach of their technical standards section of their LCCP.

At this point I was sure they were displaying the incorrect RTP, as every other GVC casino I checked (barring Partycasino) was using the 94% versions of the games, and it made no sense that Coral would be the only one using the higher level, but as usual live chat denied this and I had no evidence, so although I made reference to it on here a couple of times, I couldn't accuse them of anything directly.

Last weekend, in the other RTP thread, someone kindly posted how to do the network analysis and what file to look for, to show what RTP version of the game was running. Frustratingly, I had already tried this, but was doing it after the game finished loading, and had missed the files that were pulled from PnG before then. The video below shows the process

View attachment 123165















Doing this confirmed Coral were and are serving the lower 94% versions, when the information on site clearly states they are running the 96% versions. The evidence is below, taken from a few different games.


View attachment 123169
View attachment 123170
View attachment 123171
View attachment 123172
View attachment 123173
View attachment 123174

I have tried, on numerous occasions previously, and more so this week, to communicate this to Coral, but met a brick wall each time, via live chat, telephone support, email, the Gala rep on here (@AdamGala who hasn't replied from January 20th) and the Twitter team. Live chat have no clue about anything and wouldn't pass me any higher. I asked for a manager at one point during a 3 hour chat session, and got this gem as a reply

Please be advised that high you stake the more chance to win. Also gambling have two side its either you win or lose

So they told me, if I stake higher I have more chances to win. Wtg with their responsible gaming there.

Now, people are probably thinking this is a mistake and they possibly just forgot to update the help files, however, over at Galacasino they added Coywolf Cash by PnG at the end of January. At this point they had been using the 94% RTP versions for around a month. As you can see, the knowledgebase file clearly shows 96.31% RTP, whereas the true RTP is 94%, and was created on the 27th January 2020 (shown below). There is no excuse I can think of for the person writing the text to put it down as 96.31% when, at the time of writing, the correct RTP was the 94% version.


View attachment 123175
View attachment 123176

The same applies to Red Tiger games, although the in game help screen shows the correct RTP, the help file is incorrect, so not as bad as the PnG ones, but still incorrect. An example of that is shown below.

View attachment 123177


The second license breach, which I'm sure no one will care about , is the fact they have removed the mandatory loss limit settings on some PlaynGo games. That is also a breach of the technical standards part of their LCCP, and knowing the UKGC, more likely to be the part they take more seriously. I mean, never mind customers are getting lied to about game payouts and chances to win, god forbid you can play 100 spins without setting a loss limit! You can see from the video below, the loss limit setting is missing completely.

View attachment 123166















TLDR: Coral and Galacasino deliberately replaced the PnG help files showing the correct RTP on games, with their own, in house written, helpfiles showing a higher RTP than they were actually giving customers.
Coral, despite being informed of this, have done nothing, at time of writing
Coral have removed the mandatory loss limit settings required under their LCCP.

Mistake or not, the PnG help files did not magically replace themselves. This has had to have had manual intervention. Any responsible company would, at that point, double check the information included in those files was correct. That clearly hasn't happened. However, they are adding new games, and knowing the RTP is set at 94%, are still writing the help files to show them running at 96%. At best what they are doing is misleading customers, and it is most certainly a breach of the LCCP.

I have tried to alert Coral and Gala of this numerous times this week as mentioned above, but they really don't care. At time of writing it is well over 72 hours since I sent my first detailed email to them including evidence, and despite the auto response stating 'We aim to respond to all queries within 24 hours and will be in contact with you as soon as possible.' I have had no response at all from them. The Twitter team said it would be within 72 hours after they passed my concerns to compliance, its been well over 72 hours, no response. I have also sent a detailed complaint to the UKGC, but their auto response states 28 days and that they won't tell me the outcome of any investigation, so as a result of the constant stonewalling, decided to post this without waiting any longer, nor the benefit of a response from GVC to put their side, which is unfortunate, but is what it is. Any decent casino would have immediately either corrected the files, put the PlaynGo files back, even if temporarily, or removed the games temporarily until the LCCP breaches were solved. GVC's response has been to completely ignore the situation, and keep misleading customers.

If anyone has played PnG games at any of the two affected properties, I would suggest you complain strongly about this, but expect to get stonewalled by live chat, but after that you could try to email [email protected]. Feel free to complain to the UKGC about this too, as GVC should not be allowed to get away with it. Personally I think the games should have been removed immediately, and all customers should be refunded any losses automatically for the time they have played while the RTP displayed was wrong. I have not mentioned losses or asked for a refund, as that is not my intention, and did not want to be seen as a losing customer moaning to get a refund.

I have only really looked at Galacasino and Coral, so cannot comment on other GVC properties, but know as of yesterday, PartyCasino were still using the 96% versions of the games.

Sorry for the extremely long post, but I wanted to be sure to detail everything correctly, so I cannot be accused by anyone (including GVC) of only posting part of the story.

@ChopleyIOM will be along to post his video regarding this shortly .

Great work Colin and @ChopleyIOM

This deserves the award for the thread of the year!

BTW, I sent a reminder email to my PnG contact, who is usually really quick to answer.....yet still CRICKETS!!

 

[Lemon]

"But thanks for bringing it to our attention and we'll get it all fixed as a matter of urgency."

To which the UKGC could reply: But it WAS brought to your attention several times and you did NOT get it all fixed as a matter of urgency.

They should be fined.

Some punter contacting customer services or live chat on a site does not constitute having something like this brought to their attention. A better way would be to find someone higher up in the organisation and converse with them directly, rather than some bod on live chat who may not understand what you're talking about, nor bother to escalate it further. Another way would be to open a complaint with the UKGC and ask for their advice on who the correct person to contact would be regarding the issue, open up a dialogue with them and hopefully get some resolution. If the site don't conclude the matter satisfactorily then you can go back to the UKGC and get them to intervene.

But then that route might negate the need for a 26-minute Youtube video which garners the adulation of an army of embittered slot players who feel robbed every time they lose...

 

[Slottery]

If most of your customers don't realize difference in your prices, it don't make it right to show wrong ones.

UKGC who's known quite strict regulator can very set rule that game and it's original help file must be connected without any exceptions. Bit surprised if they allow operators to have right to use something else, is worse to show incorrect RTP:s and other values instead of not showing them at all like some regulators let operators do.

 

[slotplayet1929]

Currently the play n go slits on coral mobile site have no RTP info anywhere

 

[EkJR]

Meh, 96 or 94 you're still going to lose your money either way eventually. At least on 94 you'll lose it quickly and then you might go out and get some fresh air or get some jobs done around the house, a far more rewarding way of spending free time, rather than hunched over your keyboard dribbling money away on Pimped. They're doing you a favour taking your money a bit quicker

Coral will just turn around and say some admin guy who normally takes care of this sort of stuff has been off on holiday and what with ICE and 'this flu going around' no-one has been able to double-check that the RTP% info matches properly on a handful of slots among the hundreds they host on their site. But thanks for bringing it to our attention and we'll get it all fixed as a matter of urgency. They'll take a slap on the wrist, go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all this to blow over.

However, you're all missing the most important question of this whole episode, and that is 'Did Chopley's girlfriend get laid last night?' or did her silhouette spend all Valentine's evening standing in the living-room doorway watching him upload videos to Youtube? 'Chooooooppers...come to bed...!'

Ten minutes later...

...'THERE! RIGHT THERE! OHHH YES! SEE THAT!? THAT HELP FILE SAYS 96, BUT THE SERVER TEXT WINDOW SAYS ONLY 94! Put the kettle on love, I'll take these bastards to the fucking cleaners!'

I think there is zero chance he engaged in any sort of sexual activity last night. Would have still been sitting at 6am this morning testing RTPs worldwide.

Some punter contacting customer services or live chat on a site does not constitute having something like this brought to their attention. A better way would be to find someone higher up in the organisation and converse with them directly, rather than some bod on live chat who may not understand what you're talking about, nor bother to escalate it further. Another way would be to open a complaint with the UKGC and ask for their advice on who the correct person to contact would be regarding the issue, open up a dialogue with them and hopefully get some resolution. If the site don't conclude the matter satisfactorily then you can go back to the UKGC and get them to intervene.

But then that route might negate the need for a 26-minute Youtube video which garners the adulation of an army of embittered slot players who feel robbed every time they lose...

Use the complaints email....will still take time but that team are at least semi knowledgable.

 

[colinsunderland]

Some punter contacting customer services or live chat on a site does not constitute having something like this brought to their attention. A better way would be to find someone higher up in the organisation and converse with them directly, rather than some bod on live chat who may not understand what you're talking about, nor bother to escalate it further. Another way would be to open a complaint with the UKGC and ask for their advice on who the correct person to contact would be regarding the issue, open up a dialogue with them and hopefully get some resolution. If the site don't conclude the matter satisfactorily then you can go back to the UKGC and get them to intervene.

But then that route might negate the need for a 26-minute Youtube video which garners the adulation of an army of embittered slot players who feel robbed every time they lose...

Rubbish. Everything you suggest, was done before I posted, apart from speak to someone higher up the organisation, as that proved impossible to do.

I have spoken to the UKGC, as I mentioned in the OP if you had bothered to read it. They refused point blank to give contact details of anyone at GVC who could deal with it, telling me to speak to customer service.
I have spoken with more than just live chat. The Twitter team do know what they are doing, and have passed it to compliance.
I have emailed higher up than customer service.
I supplied evidence on all occasions.
I am also aware that people high up are fully aware of the situation, and haven't done anything. So what else would you suggest? Just let customers continue to get lied to and not say anything?

 

[EkJR]

If most of your customers don't realize difference in your prices, it don't make it right to show wrong ones.

UKGC who's known quite strict regulator can very set rule that game and it's original help file must be connected without any exceptions. Bit surprised if they allow operators to have right to use something else, is worse to show incorrect RTP:s and other values instead of not showing them at all like some regulators let operators do.

It's in the LCCP so it's a definite breach by the operator.

 

[Lemon]

Rubbish. Everything you suggest, was done before I posted, apart from speak to someone higher up the organisation, as that proved impossible to do.

I have spoken to the UKGC, as I mentioned in the OP if you had bothered to read it. They refused point blank to give contact details of anyone at GVC who could deal with it, telling me to speak to customer service.
I have spoken with more than just live chat. The Twitter team do know what they are doing, and have passed it to compliance.
I have emailed higher up than customer service.
I supplied evidence on all occasions.
I am also aware that people high up are fully aware of the situation, and haven't done anything. So what else would you suggest? Just let customers continue to get lied to and not say anything?

They might be in the process of sorting it out right now, but these things take time because I'm sure they have other stuff on besides this. They can't simply drop everything and focus solely on one issue. Nor do they have to liaise with you every step of the way to keep you updated on their progress. Why not wait it out a bit more first?

 

[colinsunderland]

They might be in the process of sorting it out right now, but these things take time because I'm sure they have other stuff on besides this. They can't simply drop everything and focus solely on one issue. Nor do they have to liaise with you every step of the way to keep you updated on their progress. Why not wait it out a bit more first?

An LCCP breach on technical standards and Responsible Gaming you would think would be a bit of a priority.
As I said, what else do you expect me to do? The auto response to the email I sent on Tuesday said I would get a reply within 24 hours. So did live chat. Twitter team said a maximum of 72 hours. It's now 96. How long should I have waited? a month? year?

 

[Slottery]

It's in the LCCP so it's a definite breach by the operator.

Thanks, was really assume it be. Not starting to go through LCCP terms and audit practices on Saturday to see exact phrasings how specific they are in that only acceptable game information is one from provider attached to particular game and version of it and not only something that "game rules need to be shown etc..." which don't specify them need to be exact these ones and found in help file.

 

[bamberfishcake]

They might be in the process of sorting it out right now, but these things take time because I'm sure they have other stuff on besides this. They can't simply drop everything and focus solely on one issue. Nor do they have to liaise with you every step of the way to keep you updated on their progress. Why not wait it out a bit more first?

Its been at least 2 months Lemon!

Other things to sort apart from what revenue they are taking? Trust me, the revenue will be the number one factor in everything they do.

 

[colinsunderland]

Thanks, was really assume it be. Not starting to go through LCCP terms and audit practices on Saturday to see exact phrasings how specific they are in that only acceptable game information is one from provider attached to particular game and version of it and not only something that "game rules need to be shown etc..." which don't specify them need to be exact these ones and found in help file.

RTS requirement 3C

For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include:

i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined and prizes allocated ii. house edge (or margin)
iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage or
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.

RTS implementation guidance 3C

a. The following items provide further guidance on acceptable types of information about the likelihood of winning:

i. for types of peer-to-peer games where the likelihood of winning may depend on skill and/or the actions of other participants, a description of the way the game works and how winners are determined will be sufficient
ii. for bingo, and some types of lottery or other games where it is not possible to determine the likelihood of winning because it depends on the eventual number of participants, a description of the way in which prizes are allocated will be sufficient
iii. the average theoretical return to player percentage. Where an event (other than peer-to-peer) involves an element of skill, return to player percentage should be calculated using either the auto-play strategy or a standard/published strategy
iv. the house edge, margin or over-round, for example for a virtual race
v. the probability of each winning event occurring, or such information as may reasonably be expected to allow the customer to calculate the probability that the event will occur. The nature of some games may mean that the game itself provides sufficient information, for example, the likelihood of rolling a six on a six-sided die would not require further explanation.
vi. The odds displayed in virtual event betting should reflect the probability of each event occurring as closely as possible.

b. Information may be included in artwork and text displayed within the virtual game or event, in ‘help’ or ‘how to play’ pages, or other supporting material.

c. Information should be easily accessible, for example by placing links on home pages for gaming or virtual event sections, game selection pages or menus, or within individual games.

 

[Reelsoffun]

Maybe suggest to them to remove a couple of Aces out of their blackjack decks, after all its the same as this cheating!!

Nah they already use a far better method than that

 

[Slottery]

RTS requirement 3C

For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include:

i. a description of the way the game works and the way in which winners are determined and prizes allocated ii. house edge (or margin)
iii. the return to player (RTP) percentage or
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.

RTS implementation guidance 3C

a. The following items provide further guidance on acceptable types of information about the likelihood of winning:

i. for types of peer-to-peer games where the likelihood of winning may depend on skill and/or the actions of other participants, a description of the way the game works and how winners are determined will be sufficient
ii. for bingo, and some types of lottery or other games where it is not possible to determine the likelihood of winning because it depends on the eventual number of participants, a description of the way in which prizes are allocated will be sufficient
iii. the average theoretical return to player percentage. Where an event (other than peer-to-peer) involves an element of skill, return to player percentage should be calculated using either the auto-play strategy or a standard/published strategy
iv. the house edge, margin or over-round, for example for a virtual race
v. the probability of each winning event occurring, or such information as may reasonably be expected to allow the customer to calculate the probability that the event will occur. The nature of some games may mean that the game itself provides sufficient information, for example, the likelihood of rolling a six on a six-sided die would not require further explanation.
vi. The odds displayed in virtual event betting should reflect the probability of each event occurring as closely as possible.

b. Information may be included in artwork and text displayed within the virtual game or event, in ‘help’ or ‘how to play’ pages, or other supporting material.

c. Information should be easily accessible, for example by placing links on home pages for gaming or virtual event sections, game selection pages or menus, or within individual games.

This exactly could be more specific as it's not specified that you are obligated to use exact and only information from provider which can't then have any discrepancies as they are coming as a one same packet which operators have no any control.

This leaves you option to choose what and where you provide as information (as long it'a accurate and correct which is not case here), it wouldn't leave any chances for discrepancies if game and original help file attached to it by provider couldn't be changed and removed.

Leaving this to that open for operators to control content these can happen but if don't give any other option than provide help file what is connected to game in provider level, there can't be differences.

All these "mays", "for examplers", "shoulds" etc... in these terms could be written in a way where there would be only one option to provide game information and nothing else.

edit:

b. Information may be included in artwork and text displayed within the virtual game or event, in ‘help’ or ‘how to play’ pages, or other supporting material.

c. Information should be easily accessible, for example by placing links on home pages for gaming or virtual event sections, game selection pages or menus, or within individual games.

This basically tells that that just provide information somewhere what ever way you are comfortable with. AFAIK at least most providers provide their official help file, wouldn't be much to make mandatory to have that available inside the game. Then if you want to make your own content and game descriptions and whatever external information packet, feel free as long the one and original is available all the time.

Having that basic information of the game exact same format in every sites would not at least make any harm but would make it impossible to have wrong info. Especially when games have different RTP:s, Jackpot versions etc.. it can be expected that operators which keep these separated and change RTP:s there are some mistakes and "mistakes" to be done too easily.

 

[Nik]

An LCCP breach on technical standards and Responsible Gaming you would think would be a bit of a priority.
As I said, what else do you expect me to do? The auto response to the email I sent on Tuesday said I would get a reply within 24 hours. So did live chat. Twitter team said a maximum of 72 hours. It's now 96. How long should I have waited? a month? year?

I like the way you are attacking - from all fronts! Twitter team, email , live chat .... have they got Facebook page too ?

 

[EkJR]

This exactly could be more specific as it's not specified that you are obligated to use exact and only information from provider which can't then have any discrepancies as they are coming as a one same packet which operators have no any control.

This leaves you option to choose what and where you provide as information (as long it'a accurate and correct which is not case here), it wouldn't leave any chances for discrepancies if game and original help file attached to it by provider couldn't be changed and removed.

Leaving this to that open for operators to control content these can happen but if don't give any other option than provide help file what is connected to game in provider level, there can't be differences.

All these "mays", "for examplers", "shoulds" etc... in these terms could be written in a way where there would be only one option to provide game information and nothing else.

I think they are looking at having the RTP visible on load up of these games. Sure Blueprint have this already. Not sure when this will happen though.

Think it's still very clear here. They have said 96% and the game runs at 94%.

 

[Slottery]

Yes it's clear of course no two questions about it. Just wonder why this information is allowed to be provided where you want and how you want instead of make it mandatory to use only information what is connected to game by provider.

Referring to original help file which can't have any discrepancies as it's part of the game wouldn't leave any chance for mixed information.

When you regulations are written like "do what ever you want as long there is xyz", there will be different ways how these are shown. Many UKGC regulations are really poorly written like this. Then when you communicating with auditors and ask if something is ok if it's there, there and there, you can get so many different variations which don't violate regulations exact text but strongly against it's spirit why it's done.

That just keep happening, many thought that old KYC verifications are totally gone when age need to be verified upon registration, couldn't be much more wrong or has somebody been able to deposit/withdraw few thousands thresholds without having to verify your identity even thought it's done upon your registration?

 

[dave1888]

Checked sister site galaspins. Same bullshit about the RTP here too . Strangely though I also checked Ladbrokes and that is accurate and matching and they are sister site to Coral/Gala.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

An LCCP breach on technical standards and Responsible Gaming you would think would be a bit of a priority.
As I said, what else do you expect me to do? The auto response to the email I sent on Tuesday said I would get a reply within 24 hours. So did live chat. Twitter team said a maximum of 72 hours. It's now 96. How long should I have waited? a month? year?

Totally this.

We've sat on this for days, doing loads of testing and Col has done a sterling job pursuing every official channel he can. It's not like we were in some mad hurry to start a big controversy (quite the opposite in fact), and the honest truth is that from my perspective I don't much enjoy doing the 'scandal' videos, I'm happiest just making my normal fruit machine emulation and online slots videos, with periodic videogame content (that hardly anyone watches ).

However, as a keen online slots player who has an (albeit small) YouTube presence I do think I have a responsibility to call out 'anti-player' stuff when it happens, such as VS stealthily reducing the RTP on their slots, or crap such as this at Coral and Gala. (And TBH I feel like we have a duty towards other CM members and other players, who may be playing these slots at Coral/Gala, thinking they're playing at a better RTP than they actually are.)

I don't mind losing when I'm playing at online casinos, I get that's going to happen when playing random games with a house edge, and I'm fine with that. (I've done over a million game rounds at 3Dice and my RTP is about bang on target, so you can work out how much I've spent there over the last eight years, but I don't have a single word of complaint about them.)

Casinos have the edge against the players, it's literally baked into every single game, the very least we must demand of them as players, is that they run their games in a fair and transparent manner. Coral and Gala have failed and they needed to be called out on it.

 

[EkJR]

Anyone checked those Jumpman scumbags yet?

 

[colinsunderland]

Anyone checked those Jumpman scumbags yet?

I don't have any accounts with them so I can't I'm afraid

 

[Playford7]

Anyone checked those Jumpman scumbags yet?

They just sent me a email for 500 spins on some site called ‘Aladdin slots’ or some nonsense, just looking for my credit card now

 

[EkJR]

They just sent me a email for 500 spins on some site called ‘Aladdin slots’ or some nonsense, just looking for my credit card now

Is it still that wheel with the 500 spins, 100, 25, 10 and 5 and you always hit 10 or 5?

 

[Playford7]

Is it still that wheel with the 500 spins, 100, 25, 10 and 5 and you always hit 10 or 5?

Didn’t look into mate. Got 3 mails after that from the same brand.
I’d rather have toe surgery then sign up and play at such a heinous brand

 

[colinsunderland]

Into day 7 without a reply from Coral, despite them saying 24 hours for a response.
All games still on site, showing the same high RTP's.

 

[geordiecolin]

Into day 7 without a reply from Coral, despite them saying 24 hours for a response.
All games still on site, showing the same high RTP's.

Would you say that the fact they have not addressed their RTP issues yet is a sign that they feel that they can fob off any investigation without it impacting on their business financially?

 

[colinsunderland]

Would you say that the fact they have not addressed their RTP issues yet is a sign that they feel that they can fob off any investigation without it impacting on their business financially?

I think it shows they don't give a shit, have sent the link to a couple of media outlets this morning, see if any of them want to pick up on it

 

[geordiecolin]

I think it shows they don't give a shit, have sent the link to a couple of media outlets this morning, see if any of them want to pick up on it

It's too early to say that they know they will get away with it. But if they do know then what could possibly make them feel so confident? A smaller brand such as casinopop would be shitting themselves and would have addressed it asap

 

[Harry_BKK]

Into day 7 without a reply from Coral, despite them saying 24 hours for a response.
All games still on site, showing the same high RTP's.

Receive a reply from PnG, not really helpful.

\

My reply

 

[colinsunderland]

It's too early to say that they know they will get away with it. But if they do know then what could possibly make them feel so confident? A smaller brand such as casinopop would be shitting themselves and would have addressed it asap

They are one of the largest casino groups worldwide, and as such are arrogant and they don't care. Lets be honest, even if they get a multimillion £ fine for this, its buttons to them, and probably paid for by the extra 50% house edge in the past week (or 2 months depending on your view).
What I would like to see the UKGC do is do a large fine, and make them refund all losing customers from the date they were misinforming them.
If they think it was deliberate, at any point, (ie, from when they were aware) then a 3 month license suspension would make them think twice next time, but that won't happen.

 

[mack341]

Just finished watching Chopley's vid, it was a thorough explanation, he and Colin have done a lot of checking before going public.

When I looked at BOD on coral back in january, I was redirected to coral's help file, and the only thing I could see, was written something like this: "rtp 96% - last month" [not the actual 96.21% which is what it states now]

It stuck in my memory as I've never seen a uk bookie site mention the ongoing/recent rtp performance, I think videoslots do do that sort of thing but they don't write it in the help file.

So there has been at least one revision, prior to the current way it is written, and I wonder if this external coral help file was in place alongside the ingame one when they first added PnG to their site.

I think PnG should be concerned, this will damage their standing too by creating suspicion around their games rtp settings. They make very good games, it's just a shame they've gone down this route of offering low rtp versions, the 84% rtp one is shocking and I'd think unethical as the games are marketed as for entertainment purposes, where's the entertainment in getting fleeced like that