Gun Control debate - What the hell is wrong with people???

[dionysus]

I'm lost; what bearing does being 6'2 have?

 

[just play]

No reason for confusion, what we are seeing here is the amazing differences in cultures, but these differences intersect in many ways. It has to do with attitudes. Look at the alcohol culture in Germany. The drinking age is sixteen. Beer is served everywhere to include school activities as long as one is of age. Yet even so, you just don't see people getting wasted like you do in the UK or the US (sorry Brits, but you drink to get drunk ). You do end up with drunk teenagers sometimes, but it's never been so bad as to prohibit their drinking. It's part of the culture.

This made me think of the differences in cultures of nudity/sex as well. lol. My friend went somewhere tropical, I forget where. We were talking about her trip and she starts to laugh and says "I was on the beach topless" I said to her no way!!! She said "sure" I said wasn't everyone staring at you...she said only the tourists.

This was not an adult beach, children were there as well.

Other cultures aren't bothered by the naked body as much as we are. If I am correct, they even show nudity on television, it's no big deal.

 

[Mousey]

Ignoring the gun control debate for just a moment, I'm more worried about our attitude as to what is 'OK' do when 'we' get mad or upset ....

We seem to have reared a couple of generations of 'if my teeny bopper girlfriend dumps me, I'm gonna take my daddy's gun and shoot her and her whole damn family', or 'I lost my job, my house is in foreclosure, so I'm going to knife/strangle my wife and kids and kill myself', or 'the guys at work pick on me so I'm going to set fire to the plant/office/workplace'.

Whatever happened to common sense and dealing with our problems?

/derail (just feeling very old and sad at the moment)

 

[LaHutti]

Hey man ... I KNOW you find it hard to believe ...you're American. That's what this whole discussion boils down to. MAJOR differences in attitude and culture. Bryan is spot on in my opinion.

It is a fact, that where I come from, the persons driving armored money transports, to this day are not carrying guns. Now I would tell you where it is, but I'm not going to be responsible for the millions and millions of criminal Americans going there to start trouble

To be quite honest, I belive a part of, and one of the reasons for "the American way" is, that a lot of people see ghosts. Is there REALLY reason to be SO scared in your own home ? Really ?
How many of the people here, with guns, ever had to use it ? I mean HAD to use it ? Not many I would guess. People are TOLD that they need to be scared, so they are.

I had to edit to mention a very important part of the discussion, that has hardly been mentioned, if at all.
The fact that the crime rate is so much higher in usa than most parts of europe ... why ?
Well, social security or lackthereof, health care or lack thereof, education or lack thereof, for less fortunate people comming from less wealthy families....the list is long.
I don't believe the crime rate is so high, just because Americans in general enjoy being criminals, or that they're less intelligent than the average world population.
So, in essence, maybe that's what should be looked at, and solved, before you start treating the "symptoms" of a sick society... because if people NEED to have guns to protect themselves, in their own homes, something is seriously wrong imo.

I find it hard to believe that you have armored car services going around your cities collecting money from businesses, banks and delivering money while being unarmed. Sounds like the North Pole or Disney World but not the real world.

 

[ksech]

Hey man ... I KNOW you find it hard to believe ...you're American. That's what this whole discussion boils down to. MAJOR differences in attitude and culture. Bryan is spot on in my opinion.

It is a fact, that where I come from, the persons driving armored money transports, to this day are not carrying guns. Now I would tell you where it is, but I'm not going to be responsible for the millions and millions of criminal Americans going there to start trouble

To be quite honest, I belive a part of, and one of the reasons for "the American way" is, that a lot of people see ghosts. Is there REALLY reason to be SO scared in your own home ? Really ?
How many of the people here, with guns, ever had to use it ? I mean HAD to use it ? Not many I would guess. People are TOLD that they need to be scared, so they are.

WOW! I almost feel insulted by these words...but what do I know, I'm only a woman and a proud American at that!
Ghosts? I think not. Try putting yourself in some peoples' shoes (as the saying goes), some people don't have the resources to get away from the violence. We are "seeing" ghosts when some pyschopath goes into a movie theatre or school and guns down innocent people/children? Or some psychopath decides to build a bomb and blow up things? But then again, we don't train our children to be suicide bombers on a daily basis like some countries do. The majority of us love and cherish our children.

I believe EVERY person has the right to protect their family in their home as they deem fit, whether it be with a gun or a baseball bat or by simply owning a dog (I happen to possess all three items. I DO NOT believe that semi-automatic weapons should be so readily available. You have to go through so much red tape for a handgun, the same should be true for these powerful assault rifles.

I have many friends who work in law enforcement and I have extremely high regard for the work they do. I worked graveyard shift in a 24 hour restaurant and used to see the "species" of human beings they had to deal with night after night. No thank you! It's one thing to try to sober them up and send them on their way, if they got too out of hand we called the police for a "friendly" escort out. But they have to deal with them once they're in vehicles or in homes.

They wear these baggy clothes which can conceal knives and guns. They can be doped out on who knows what. So, by your "statement" we should simply ask intruders if its their intention to cause bodily harm first, because we as Americans are simply seeing ghosts? That because we are Americans we have been "brainwashed" into believing there is danger when there really isn't? Sorry if I have misinterpreted your meaning...

As far as I know, none of these people were old enough to collect social security (unless they lowered the age...), maybe they were denied some sort of mental health care since they were in their 20's and were probably uininsured. I don't understand how this really has any bearing on the topic at hand?

Education is a different matter, but I don't think (and this is just my opinion) it's relevant. These are angry, selfish, cowardly individuals. They went after people who were NO threat to them.

I'm glad you live in a country that has NO violence. That you feel safe and secure in your home and that your children never have to worry about being abducted or preyed upon by pedophiles. Or that your children never have to worry about gun crazed people shooting up schools or movie theatres or blowing up buildings. When I was a child I didn't have to worry about all that stuff either, how times have changed...

 

[LaHutti]

I'm sorry if you feel insulted, that was not my intention.
I think most people who are not American, would agree that there is no need to be so scared to be in your own home, that you NEED a gun. I'm asking how many people in reality ever needed their gun, to protect their home and/or family.
Is it a real NEED, or do most people have a gun, because they hear about "someone" having an experience with intruders, while very few people actually had an experience themselves ? Are you in fact told, that you need to be scared, while the real thread, and therefore the NEED of weapons laying around is non existent ?
The reason I question the real NEED to have a gun for personal protection (If people never NEEDED to pull their gun out to "protect their family", are they in fact seeing ghosts ?).
Again...I'm sorry if any of my posts are insulting to anyone...I don't want to insult, but would REALLY like to understand, because what some of you are saying, sounds like Wild West to me, more than anything else.
I think I'll just leave the discussion here

WOW! I almost feel insulted by these words...but what do I know, I'm only a woman and a proud American at that!
Ghosts? I think not. Try putting yourself in some peoples' shoes (as the saying goes), some people don't have the resources to get away from the violence. We are "seeing" ghosts when some pyschopath goes into a movie theatre or school and guns down innocent people/children? Or some psychopath decides to build a bomb and blow up things? But then again, we don't train our children to be suicide bombers on a daily basis like some countries do. The majority of us love and cherish our children.

I believe EVERY person has the right to protect their family in their home as they deem fit, whether it be with a gun or a baseball bat or by simply owning a dog (I happen to possess all three items. I DO NOT believe that semi-automatic weapons should be so readily available. You have to go through so much red tape for a handgun, the same should be true for these powerful assault rifles.

I have many friends who work in law enforcement and I have extremely high regard for the work they do. I worked graveyard shift in a 24 hour restaurant and used to see the "species" of human beings they had to deal with night after night. No thank you! It's one thing to try to sober them up and send them on their way, if they got too out of hand we called the police for a "friendly" escort out. But they have to deal with them once they're in vehicles or in homes.

They wear these baggy clothes which can conceal knives and guns. They can be doped out on who knows what. So, by your "statement" we should simply ask intruders if its their intention to cause bodily harm first, because we as Americans are simply seeing ghosts? That because we are Americans we have been "brainwashed" into believing there is danger when there really isn't? Sorry if I have misinterpreted your meaning...

 

[rockycatt]

well for the nay sayers wake up smell the coffee

um prolly just a sit down and cup of cocoa could have thwarted this fine young man

PS. he isn't one of ours

AND CONTINUED HERE ----------->














Norwegian mass murderer Breivik complains about prison conditions


Published November 09, 2012

Associated Press




OSLO, Norway – Norwegian mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik, who is serving a 21-year sentence for killing 77 people in a bomb and gun rampage last year, has complained that he is being held in inhumane conditions and is being denied freedom of expression, his lawyer said Friday.

"He has written a long complaint that he is being held in a section with particularly high security," Tord Jordet told The Associated Press. "He is today the only one in this ward and the security regime is the strictest in Norway."

The 33-year-old confessed killer has said the attacks were justified because his victims were traitors for embracing multiculturalism. The court found Breivik sane and said his sentence can be extended for as long as he is considered a danger to society.

In his letter to prison officials Breivik protested that the censorship of his letters was so strict that his freedom of expression was being impinged upon, Jordet said.

Norwegian tabloid VG, which said it had acquired a copy of the letter, quoted Breivik as saying he was allowed to use only a soft and bendable safety pen described by its manufacturer as "stab-resistant" because it yields at the slightest pressure and cannot be used as a weapon. Breivik was seen making avid notes with it during his 10-week trial at the Oslo District Court that ended in August.

He said has said he wants to write books in prison but claims the special pen cramps his hand, describing it as "an almost indescribable manifestation of sadism," VG reported.

Prison officials would not comment on the letter as they were still considering the complaint.

Ellen Bjercke, a spokeswoman for Ila Prison where Breivik is being held, said that Breivik was given an electric typewriter on Friday but that it was not connected to his letter of complaint. It was not clear when Breivik's letter was delivered to prison officials.

During his pre-trial detention Breivik was allowed a computer that could not be connected to the Internet, but it was taken away from him when he started serving his sentence.

The Oslo District Court found Breivik guilty of terrorism and premeditated murder for the twin attacks on July 22, 2011, and gave him a 21-year prison sentence that can be extended if he's considered a threat.

Breivik confessed to setting off a bomb that ripped through Oslo's government district, killing eight people, then opening fire at the summer camp of the governing Labor Party's youth wing. Sixty-nine people died in the mayhem at the Utoya island camp outside the Norwegian capital Oslo before Breivik surrendered to a SWAT team.

The self-styled anti-Muslim militant denied criminal guilt, saying he's a commander of a resistance movement aiming to overthrow European governments and replace them with "patriotic" regimes that will deport Muslim immigrants. Police said they found no evidence of Breivik belonging to any such group.


Read more:

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[LaHutti]

He is also not one of ours ... or one of the Norwegians. He is one sick fuck, living in a sick world of his own, in how many decades ?
In european history as a whole...you can maybe find ... I won't even begin to guess, because it's so few incidents, that the one you mention will stand out for the next many decades to come (and unfortunately, someone, somewhere will remember the psycho, and mention him again and again, which is what he wanted).
I'm not saying there won't ever be a sicko like him again in Europe, because there are sick people everywhere, but I think it's safe to say, that we'll probably see quite a few incidents in the states, before we see anything like this again, anywhere in Europe, based on history.
If you take Norway, where this one was from, you won't find ANYTHING even remotely close to that sicko in history... ever.
I'll leave you to count the incidents in USA, in just the last 10 years, and even considering the difference in population, the numbers are quite frightening.

All that aside, I think it's highly inappropiate to post pictures of that idiot, or in any other way promote him, and his sick actions. I'd rather see pictures of, and rember the people he molested, but that's just me.

um prolly just a sit down and cup of cocoa could have thwarted this fine young man Old Attachment (Invalid)

PS. he isn't one of ours

 

[skiny]

Can I just say this, here in Northern Ireland, there have been an uprise in the number of pensioners homes being robbed and the pensioners themselves being badly injured, even hospitalized.

Now can an old person protect themselves against a young man or group of young men? simply NO, they WOULD be overpowered.

If the old person had a gun to protect themselves do you think they could defend themselves?

What makes it right for people in uniform to carry guns, couldn't some of them 'snap' and suffer nervous breakdowns, due to major changes in their personal lives and go on the rampage?

Just something to think about.

People in law enforcement can snap just like everyone else but it would be irresponsible for the force itself not to monitor strange behaviour. Not just because they carry a weapon but because they're relied upon by the rest of the force. The same goes for military personnel. I'm sure there are psychological tests that are performed before they become members of the force. Security firms, police forces and the military should all have strict regulations governing who is fit for combat not only physically but mentally as well and these things should be monitored to some degree. If I was a police officer, I would want to know I could trust the people I worked with.

I know I said I wouldn't keep going but O well.

On a quick side note: Just for the record you missed the point / reason why I mentioned someone pulling away and you throwing them down. However I'm not planning on explaining it unless you just really want me to.

Where did I say "start with out us"??? Even with the fastest police response times we still can't and won't always get there. What part of that isn't clear? Me saying prepare yourself and take some damn responsibility in it is the same as saying start without us? Umm ok. You want an honest police officer I'll give you one. You want me to put sugar on everything, then I suggest you request another officer.

Its funny that you would think a civilian with a firearm in their home shouldn't be required to be just as proficient if not more proficient than an officer. Difference between me and you? I expect my wife to out shoot me, I expect my wife to be more safety conscious with a firearm than me. When you do something day in day out it's easier to get complaisant and forget the basics. Which is why our swat team routinely "goes back to the basics."

The benefit of not being on the front lines is that anything you "feel" will work....works just fine. Y'all are using these examples as if they are the norm and happen all the time. In that case lets all just throw out the worst case scenario even it it only has happened once in any given year and then say see that's why x should happen.

Show me these stats please of all of those home invasions that ended in a family member dead simply because the homeowner had a gun? I'm speaking from stats and I'm not simply stating how I "feel." Home invasion simply don't end the way you say - and I'm not talking the exceptions to the rule.

The problem is everyone with a gun isn't your wife. I'm not doubting that you act responsibly with a weapon and expect the people around you to do the same. I'm not doubting that your family members that have access to these weapons have not been adequately trained. I'm doubting that the other millions of people who own guns regardless of what country they live in have someone like you around to make sure they know right from wrong and how to act responsibly.

I'm posting this one just because it's bugging me and I would like to be clear on some things:

An officer is a position of servitude. Some people don't really grasp that concept. If I'm speaking about things as they relate to someones protection I don't take it lightly and it pains me when I feel as if I'm coming across as too callous.

There ARE constants here in America (I'll keep it limited to us) and being aware of them is important:

1. Bad people are out there.
2. Police will not always make it in time.
3. You should be prepared to deal with worst case incidents.

If you choose to have a firearm in your residence you and anyone else in your home should understand 4 concepts:

1. Index the trigger finger (finger off the trigger).
2. Only aim at what you are willing to shoot.
3. Be aware of your target and background.
4. Treat all guns as if they are loaded (even a toy gun).

I believe it was skiny who mentioned "rolling out of bed with a gun." If you are too groggy and still point the gun then you just broke the third rule. If you own a firearm and aren't aware of these rules then you shouldn't own a firearm. Requiring a citizen with a firearm in their home to take yearly evals / training would be a great thing.

The facts are simple: Home invasions do happen. Some will not end in any violence. Some will end in violence. I do wish we will make it to every call with plenty of time to spare....However it will not happen.

I agree 100%. If you can't act responsibly with a firearm you shouldn't own one. That is why I advocate gun control. I think that there are so many guns and owning them is so common place that many people just take them for granted. I just don't believe that 40 or 50 million households with guns in them are all going to be occupied by responsible, well trained, safety conscious people. I do believe that if you put a gun in half the homes in America bad things are going to happen. And I don't think the USA should be punished because it has a much higher population or population density than other countries. I think the same rules should apply here in Canada. I think people that want to own guns should have extensive training and a psychological assessment. I think these things should be a one shot deal and you're good for life. If you want to be a long term gun owner these things should be repeated. The training should not just be a short class explaining how to load and shoot. It should cover gun storage, responsible handling and a solid understanding of when not to use it like firing warning shots. Who knows where those things are going to end up? And when you buy a gun legally you should have to be able to produce it on demand. In fact someone should be keeping track of who still has all these legally bought guns. If you buy guns and they're reported stolen on a regular basis you're probably just selling them off. And you don't need a half dozen guns to protect yourself. If you already own a gun and you're buying a second one someone should be asking where the first one is and why you need two? Semi-automatic weapons should be out of the question. You don't need to fire a dozen rounds per second to protect yourself from a burglar. I think you should need a permit to transport a gun. Transporting hunting rifles could incorporate the permit with the hunting license for a specific or specific weapons.

I know, it's harsh and it's a great big pain in the ass but then if it's a pain in the ass, people who don't REALLY need a gun probably won't bother. And then who knows? Maybe a quarter of the homes in the US will have guns in them instead of half but that would be a start. And even all of this is pointless without addressing the actual reasons the crime rates are so high to begin with. There are a multitude of problems that need to be dealt with to lower crime rates in general and address the high number of gun related crimes. Gun control is just one step. It really is a huge problem and guns aren't the only issue. It's a bigger problem in the US than here in Canada because there are ten times as many people but I could sit and type most of the same things about the crime rates here. It's a complicated problem and has to be addressed from many, many different angles.

"No amount of gun laws can stop someone who spends months planning this type of massacre. The real villain lies within our own hearts."- Darrell Scott, the father of Rachel Scott, a victim of the Columbine High School shootings.

The problem goes way back to Cain. There were certainly other fathers and mothers who lost children in these types of massacres who say that lack of gun controls caused those massacres but, overall, when all is said and done, it is really a spiritual problem which we continually ignore hence we will always have these problems.

I'm not typing anything differently than I would if the latest shooting didn't happen. In fact my response is to crime in general and gun crime as a whole, not a one off massacre as sad as it is that it happened.

 

[Cleveland]

@ Lahutti: Your signature sums it up. Its not about "needing" a gun in your home. Its about being prepared in case you ever do. Violent crimes happen. Hoping you won't be a victim isn't a solution. Preparing for the worst and hoping for the best is. If you don't trust so many with guns are trained properly then support laws requiring reg training.

 

[Cleveland]

The following are the crime stats for one month (Oct 2012) for ONE city. These crimes aren't because of guns, so I need someone to explain to me how these victims should have been protected:

Rapes - 50
Aggravated Assaults - Over 200 (I stopped counting at 200)
Burglaries - Over 200 (I stopped counting at 200)

This is one month in one city. Now tell me again why citizen don't need a firearm in their home because these things are "ghost." As an Officer you see the worst a city has to offer. Most things that happen in a city will go unnoticed by your average citizen.

 

[just play]

You buy a dog or a baseball bat...or wait until police get there after you have been raped or assaulted. (sarcasm of course)

@ Lahutti: Your signature sums it up. Its not about "needing" a gun in your home. Its about being prepared in case you ever do. Violent crimes happen. Hoping you won't be a victim isn't a solution. Preparing for the worst and hoping for the best is. If you don't trust so many with guns are trained properly then support laws requiring reg training.

My husband and I have talked about this extensively in the last week or so. I have read comments from this thread to him.

He said even if we lived here for 50 years and never had to use the gun but once to save our daughter from a home intruder with a gun, if me owning a gun saved the life of my daughter wouldn't it be worth it? (again, we don't own a gun)


Cleveland...I have noticed in this thread there will always be reasons why own a gun or not to own a gun, and it seems to me everyone thinks they are right in their thinking. No ones minds are going to change.


edit...I don't care for this imaginary/ghost line of thinking either, it's ridiculous. Or even the debate about "I can handle myself without a gun" well not everyone is male, or strong, or tough. I have been saying from very early on in this thread it depends how you were raised, where you were brought up, I think before anyone else. Then I posted just like you the crime rates for a city near me, then I posted about the millions and millions difference in people in USA compaired to Canada/UK, but no one wants to hear this from me. It's a losing battle, believe me...you either are for guns or against them, no use debating it any further, it's starting to go in circles now.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

The following are the crime stats for one month (Oct 2012) for ONE city. These crimes aren't because of guns, so I need someone to explain to me how these victims should have been protected:

Rapes - 50
Aggravated Assaults - Over 200 (I stopped counting at 200)
Burglaries - Over 200 (I stopped counting at 200)

This is one month in one city. Now tell me again why citizen don't need a firearm in their home because these things are "ghost." As an Officer you see the worst a city has to offer. Most things that happen in a city will go unnoticed by your average citizen.

Rape go's unnoticed by your average citizen?

Obviously,its terrible should it happen,but why not report it like the average victim from the whole of Europe does?

Owning a gun for 'potential rape victims' will not result in every 'potential rape victim' using it vs their 'potential rapist' in the US.It's that simple I'm afraid.

There's no 'he's is a rapist' trigger that only makes a gun fire should he try raping you yet prevents all other murders by the same gun.

People just cannot be trusted to own a gun for self defence,rape or any other for of defence.Not 310 million of them.

As for 200 buglaries in 1 month in 1 city,you should visit Liverpool/Manchester.They have awful burglary numbers (one of which has just included a woman in her 80's who had spent £1000 on presents for her family -also suffering from lung cancer)

All presents robbed - but nobody dead.She cried on Granada reports and said she wish she was dead as she was sick of her area,but still,nobody was killed.

This "I'm not listening" attitude simply won't work simply because they stopped a rapist from raping someone or stopped a burglary.Its the wider picture that includes schools that counts,children prevented from being killed that just might be yours.

Harsh to be said,but at this rate a certain possibility.

(sorry Brits, but you drink to get drunk ).

As for Casinomeisters comment/remark on Uk people drinking to get drunk or to that effect,most work throughout the week then drink throughout the weekend,but only because its well known we get ripped off for everything else we are interested in that would cut mosts drinking interests.

For example,how much does it cost to attend a football game ("soccer" or otherwise)? To attend a Preston North End game-division 1 may I add it would be a £17 minimum.

Should they make the premiership that would be £30 minimum,considering the average wage is around £190 a week after tax thats pretty harsh,not to forget your half time pie and drink (at least £5 - almost $10)

UK always get ripped off for everything then the rest of Europe slates them due to the 1 thing that is cheap-alcohol,not to say I'm an alcoholic.

Even your own country (Germany?) 5th in the top 10 drinking nations of the world according to some polls,only 4 places behind the UK/or should I say England.

Also a place that beer apparantly costs around abouts the same as water!

And also a place that still allows people to crack open a beer in a public place,whilst we,do not.Not to mention Oktoberfest.

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One of the most alcoholic nations on Earth - Russia,one of the cheapest things there - vodka.Yet we hear no regular health issues about their country.

Why do people think we get new consoles/clothes etc imported from other countries? Because they're prettier?

No,they're cheaper.And we constantly get ripped off.

 

[P.V.]

20/20 view on Guns

 

[Cleveland]

Rape go's unnoticed by your average citizen?

Please at least make an attempt to understand. I'm talking about stats. I'm saying your average citizen doesn't know or keep track of how many of those crimes happened in any given month. Stop taking things to the extreme. I know full well if you hear about a rape most would care.

People just cannot be trusted to own a gun for self defence,rape or any other for of defence.Not 310 million of them.

And you should decide that for them?

As for 200 buglaries in 1 month in 1 city,you should visit Liverpool/Manchester.They have awful burglary numbers (one of which has just included a woman in her 80's who had spent £1000 on presents for her family -also suffering from lung cancer)

All presents robbed - but nobody dead.

People die in them all the time. I'm talking stats and facts. Not some "O I feel this might happen." All recent events ALL from my area:

A group of men is on the run after murdering a homeowner, injuring his family, and ransacking his home--->

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A Sugar Land family is recovering after surviving a terrifying night being attacked by a group of violent burglars. Zubeda Ali, who was repeatedly pistol whipped in the head, is back home now after getting staples and stitches in the hospital --->

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Man shot during violent home invasion--->

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Three family members were shot during a violent home invasion that took place in northwest Harris County. --->

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Its the wider picture that includes schools that counts,children prevented from being killed that just might be yours.

Harsh to be said,but at this rate a certain possibility.

How does my neighbor not having a gun in his home stop a school shooting? Can you guarantee that it will? I can guarantee that we have had 100s of home invasions that ended in violence with the homeowners not doing anything to provoke the incident. I can guarantee that more citizen die in America from violent home invasions than a mass shooting. I can guarantee that a firearm in the home does afford you a higher degree of self defense. I'm not talking what may happen, I'm talking about what does.

It's a proven FACT that those who are bad / evil or whatever will get them. In all of these "safe" countries there are countless evil mean wishing and planning for months on end to commit these acts of violence / terror and then in the end say "O crap I can't complete this plan because guns are banned here." This might be a surprise but guess what a lot of the guns used in the shootings are already illegal.

We work countless of these violent cases. But hey don't worry about these stats because some "feel" if we ban guns in homes mass shootings wouldn't occur. That's an OPINION. The fact is innocent people will die and do die in home invasions. It amazes me that instead of people offering up proactive solutions they simple say "ban guns and problem should be solved." How about metal detectors at all schools and places where large crowds gather (malls, movies, etc). How about having unarmed security personnel and a SRO (School resource officer - which is an armed Police Officer etc) on duty at each school. Hell do you have any idea how many cameras Lee High School has setup for example with an Officer watching them? I'll tell you 200+.

How about having at least one spot as an extra job for another police officer at the school to assist the SRO (thats our setup). How about requiring an actual background check for gun owners instead of this crap we go through now, and mandated yearly or bi yearly evaluations as well as training. How about harsh penalties for those who don't keep their license up to date with the evals / training.

How about suggesting something that doesn't require my wife to HOPE she survives a home invasion simply because someone else "feels" the cause of mass shootings are guns inside someones home! True my wife may die or be harmed but at least she is given a fighting chance.

 

[LaHutti]

Cleve, since you're the master of statistics, can you dig up how many times shots were fired by civilians, how many deaths was the result of these shootings, and most importantly...how many of these shootings were NEEDED ? Please don't tell me, as a police officer, that you praise death penalty for simply breaking in to a house. ?

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

It's a proven FACT that those who are bad / evil or whatever will get them. In all of these "safe" countries there are countless evil mean wishing and planning for months on end to commit these acts of violence / terror and then in the end say "O crap I can't complete this plan because guns are banned here." This might be a surprise but guess what a lot of the guns used in the shootings are already illegal.

We work countless of these violent cases. But hey don't worry about these stats because some "feel" if we ban guns in homes mass shootings wouldn't occur. That's an OPINION. The fact is innocent people will die and do die in home invasions. It amazes me that instead of people offering up proactive solutions they simple say "ban guns and problem should be solved." How about metal detectors at all schools and places where large crowds gather (malls, movies, etc). How about having unarmed security personnel and a SRO (School resource officer - which is an armed Police Officer etc) on duty at each school. Hell do you have any idea how many cameras Lee High School has setup for example with an Officer watching them? I'll tell you 200+.

How about having at least one spot as an extra job for another police officer at the school to assist the SRO (thats our setup). How about requiring an actual background check for gun owners instead of this crap we go through now, and mandated yearly or bi yearly evaluations as well as training. How about harsh penalties for those who don't keep their license up to date with the evals / training.

How about suggesting something that doesn't require my wife to HOPE she survives a home invasion simply because someone else "feels" the cause of mass shootings are guns inside someones home! True my wife may die or be harmed but at least she is given a fighting chance.

Nonsense,this is just another "we fight fire with fire because it works" (apparantly) post.

You know it doesn't work yet you will still post "what a tragedy" on the next thread where theres a shoot-up.

Its ridiculous.

You simply clutch at straws because "guns are your right".

Edit (After LaHutti 'liked' just in case) You have posted 4 links where guns have helped or could have helped.Should I now just post the 31 links of the school shootups since columbine that may have been avoided if these were banned?

 

[Cleveland]

Cleve, since you're the master of statistics, can you dig up how many times shots were fired by civilians, how many deaths was the result of these shootings, and most importantly...how many of these shootings were NEEDED ? Please don't tell me, as a police officer, that you praise death penalty for simply breaking in to a house. ?

What do you mean were needed? Death penalty for breaking into a house? Umm just so I'm clear, how do I know when someone breaking into my house will cause me harm? How would you have suggested protecting any of those victims in the cases I linked? I linked a very small portion of real cases that happen on a regular basis. You in turn then ignore them and continue to rant about what you "feel?" And then challenge me to look up your stats for you in and effort to prove / disprove a point your trying to make because you don't really know the facts? Umm what?

I know we had over 200 violent assaults last month that weren't provoked. What I don't know is how you purpose to protect those victims.

 

[LaHutti]

ok...let me ask you a very simple question then Cleve

Do you, as a police officer think it's ok, in all cases of a break-in, that the owner of said house fires a gun, and kills whoever breaks in ?

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

What do you mean were needed? Death penalty for breaking into a house? Umm just so I'm clear, how do I know when someone breaking into my house will cause me harm? How would you have suggested protecting any of those victims in the cases I linked? I linked a very small portion of real cases that happen on a regular basis. You in turn then ignore them and continue to rant about what you "feel?" And then challenge me to look up your stats for you in and effort to prove / disprove a point your trying to make because you don't really know the facts? Umm what?

I know we had over 200 violent assaults last month that weren't provoked. What I don't know is how you purpose to protect those victims.

Fact is most of these wouldn't have a gun if it wasn't for your own laws (same ones you support btw),so you feel a threat from something that derives from yourself in effect.

Its been proven in the UK and Australia (see my earlier post on the massacre in 1996 in Australia and their laws/buy back scheme)

 

[Cleveland]

Nonsense,this is just another "we fight fire with fire because it works" (apparantly) post.

You know it doesn't work yet you will still post "what a tragedy" on the next thread where theres a shoot-up.

Its ridiculous.

You simply clutch at straws because "guns are your right".

Edit (After LaHutti 'liked' just in case) You have posted 4 links where guns have helped or could have helped.Should I now just post the 31 links of the school shootups since columbine that may have been avoided if these were banned?

What the hell are you talking about? Simply tell me how to protect the residents of violent home invasions. It is real and it happens at a huge rate in south, texas, southeast, texas, all along the boarder, Louisiana, etc etc. Please answer this very real question. If you can't do that then you have no place in the argument. I gave valid points on how to fight mass shootings, you ignored all. Yet I'm the one clutching for straws. You continue to fight with what you "feel" and I'll do my best to protect you.

This isn't just "4 cases." Also its funny how you continue to ignore the fact that someone who spends that much time planning a mass shooting and uses already illegal guns and breaks over 20 laws in the process will be stopped by you taking my gun from my home.

edit: And just for the record since you seem to be clueless on what I "think" as you put it. I can't stand the thought of people with guns. Have YOU walked up to a vehicle that just fled from you and attempted a felony stop on it... See the subject digging through the vehicle and you sit there and HOPE he doesn't have a firearm? Have you walked up to a house for a disturbance call where the idiot was waiting on you with a loaded shot gun but was too drugged up to remember where he left it. I have. And for the record the shotgun was outside in the front yard where by his mothers own admission he was waiting originally waiting on us but "forgot" that he put it down. It scares the hell out of me. But I also know what happens day in and day out. And people like you offer no solutions for it, while people like me attempt to educate and give options to help the issue which are dismissed by people like you with out so much as a short discussion.

Don't even begin to tell me how I feel about guns. If it was up to me nobody in the world would have them.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

What the hell are you talking about? Simply tell me how to protect the residents of violent home invasions. It is real and it happens at a huge rate in south, texas, southeast, texas, all along the boarder, Louisiana, etc etc. Please answer this very real question. If you can't do that then you have no place in the argument. I gave valid points on how to fight mass shootings, you ignored all. Yet I'm the one clutching for straws. You continue to fight with what you "feel" and I'll do my best to protect you.

This isn't just "4 cases." Also its funny how you continue to ignore the fact that someone who spends that much time planning a mass shooting and uses already illegal guns and breaks over 20 laws in the process will be stopped by you taking my gun from my home.

Unbelievable.You need to start taking your head out of the sand.

Who says he spent time planning this? You knew him personally? For all you knew he got that arsenal that morning.

I only scarcely read through your points on how to 'defend mass shootings' because I have read a few from different posters up to this point and they all tend to say the same thing - more guns.

We have an issue with guns,so lets defend it with more guns tends to be the answer.

/Yawn

 

[Cleveland]

Fact is most of these wouldn't have a gun if it wasn't for your own laws (same ones you support btw)

You have no clue what I support .

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

You have no clue what I support .

Evidently Cleveland,evidently.

 

[P.V.]

Please don't tell me, as a police officer, that you praise death penalty for simply breaking in to a house. ?

It's not always that simple, just breaking into a house to steal a laptop or money. There are what's called home invasions and many are very violent resulting in rape and even death.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

It's not always that simple, just breaking into a house to steal a laptop or money. There are what's called home invasions and many are very violent resulting in rape and even death.




Or schools,which is mostly the point here people seem to be forgetting.

I guess its true what they say,you have to be a parent or unfortunately be a parent with a kid at one of these schools to realise how f*cked up sh*t can get.

 

[Cleveland]

Unbelievable.You need to start taking your head out of the sand.

Who says he spent time planning this? You knew him personally? For all you knew he got that arsenal that morning.

/Yawn

The damn FBI. My head is in the sand...O really? :

FBI agents have also confirmed that Lanza destroyed his computer hard-drive prior to going on the killing spree, in an attempt to hide information contained on it. This, another indication that this was a premeditated shooting attack by Lanza, and that he had planned it all out in advance.

I only scarcely read through your points on how to 'defend mass shootings' because I have read a few from different posters up to this point and they all tend to say the same thing - more guns.

We have an issue with guns,so lets defend it with more guns tends to be the answer.

No where in any of my post did I say anything about more guns. You've proved my point. You care nothing for fixing the issue. As it stands you have yet to give any facts what so ever that point to the cause of the problem or how to fix it. Way to ignore everything I've written.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

The damn FBI. My head is in the sand...O really? :

FBI agents have also confirmed that Lanza destroyed his computer hard-drive prior to going on the killing spree, in an attempt to hide information contained on it. This, another indication that this was a premeditated shooting attack by Lanza, and that he had planned it all out in advance.



No where in any of my post did I say anything about more guns. You've proved my point. You care nothing for fixing the issue. As it stands you have yet to give any facts what so ever that point to the cause of the problem or how to fix it. Way to ignore everything I've written.

You are completely correct Cleveland,I have posted from the start of this thread including statistics of 7 countries gun deaths totalling less than 1000 deaths whilst USA have 9200 in the same year yet I give no facts.

Somebody didn't read the whole thread did they? If anyone knew they way to fix it Cleveland would you be here? Would I?

 

[Cleveland]

I guess its true what they say,you have to be a parent or unfortunately be a parent with a kid at one of these schools to realise how f*cked up sh*t can get.

I guess its true what they say, you have to be a victim of a violent home invasion to realize how f*cked up sh*t can get.


Yea because me living in it while you watch it on TV gives you a greater perspective.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

I guess its true what they say, you have to be a victim of a violent home invasion to realize how f*cked up sh*t can get.


Yea because me living in it while you watch it on TV gives you a greater perspective.

No offence but you seriously need to grow the f*ck up - and gain some sensitivity.

 

[Cleveland]

You are completely correct Cleveland,I have posted from the start of this thread including statistics of 7 countries gun deaths totalling less than 1000 deaths whilst USA have 9200 in the same year yet I give no facts.

Somebody didn't read the whole thread did they? If anyone knew they way to fix it Cleveland would you be here? Would I?

I said "you have yet to give any facts what so ever that point to the cause of the problem or how to fix it."

I didn't know those stats you quoted proves the root cause of mass shooting to be a gun in my home.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

I said "you have yet to give any facts what so ever that point to the cause of the problem or how to fix it."

I didn't know those stats you quoted proves the root cause of mass shooting to be a gun in my home.

Man you are really for guns aren't you? Who said anything about a gun in your home?

PS the problem is evidently your mentality,not yours personally.

 

[Cleveland]

No offence but you seriously need to grow the f*ck up - and gain some sensitivity.

Yea I'm not sensitive. I didn't get into law enforcement because I cried myself to sleep when I saw the horror that is going on around me. I'm not on meds because the things I've seen touch me so deeply that I carry it on my shoulder even when I'm at home. I didn't just have the head of my department send me to a pscyh dr because my sgts felt I'm taking things I see too personally. I haven't had sleepless nights because of the inhumane violent acts around me.

I haven't seen the concern in my wifes eye because I just watched a man take his last breaths as I begged him to hold on for EMS.

Yea you know me so well.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

Yea I'm not sensitive. I didn't get into law enforcement because I cried myself to sleep when I saw the horror that is going on around me. I'm not on meds because the things I've seen touch me so deeply that I carry it on my shoulder even when I'm at home. I didn't just have the head of my department send me to a pscyh dr because my sgts felt I'm taking things I see too personally. I haven't had sleepless nights because of the inhumane violent acts around me.

I haven't seen the concern in my wifes eye because I just watched a man take his last breaths as I begged him to hold on for EMS.

Yea you know me so well.

Glad we got that sorted first line mostly.

 

[Cleveland]

Man you are really for guns aren't you? Who said anything about a gun in your home?

PS the problem is evidently your mentality,not yours personally.

From the start I have made it clear that I'm for gun ownership inside of a residence. I have yet nor will I attempt to make a case for the masses carrying guns on their persons in public.

I'm done as you clearly know or understand very little about what my motives are.

 

[P.V.]

No offence but you seriously need to grow the f*ck up - and gain some sensitivity.

This is a debate, many here are disagreeing but that's uncalled for. Cleveland has valid points too. Telling someone to grow the F up is childish IMO.

If ya can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

From the start I have made it clear that I'm for gun ownership inside of a residence. I have yet nor will I attempt to make a case for the masses carrying guns on their persons in public.

I'm done as you clearly know or understand very little about what my motives are.

Yes this will undoubtedly work,we have a saying here-its called pissing in the wind.You know you can trust your residents of your neighborhood?

Are you for real?

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

This is a debate, many here are disagreeing but that's uncalled for. Cleveland has valid points too. Telling someone to grow the F up is childish IMO.

If ya can't handle the heat get of of the kitchen.

He's been baiting me all evening not disagreeing.Call it straight.

 

[P.V.]

He's been baiting me all evening not disagreeing.Call it straight.

Then don't take the bait!

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

Then don't take the bait!

Easier said than done,just winds me up when certain proposals evidently won't work amongst a trigger happy group of people.

No offence to the USA.It just won't.

 

[P.V.]

Easier said than done,just winds me up when certain proposals evidently won't work amongst a trigger happy group of people.

No offence to the USA.It just won't.

Nothing will change so don't wind up too tight. It is what it is. Any sick person that wants a gun will find one and due harm to others, plain and simple. It's unfortunate but a fact.

Even Presidents of the U.S. have been shot by guns, with all the top security they have.

There's no possible way to stop tragedies like what has recently happened no matter how hard guns are debated or regulated.

Obama has placed Joe Biden in charge to investigate new ways to control guns inside the U.S., all that's going to do is increase gun and ammo sales to a record pace.

 

[The Dude]

...

Also a place that beer apparantly costs around abouts the same as water!

...

Actually, water can be more expensive in restaurants. Euro 2 for a .3 liter glass while a beer will run you on average 2.25 for a .5 liter glass. Some people call this paradise, others call it Germany

But seriously, some of your comments have been way over the top and out of line when responding to Cleveland's experience as a police officer. He's telling you like it is, and you're taking it to a personal level which is totally uncool and uncalled for. I'm really disappointed that you made some of the comments that you did. It's a discussion - and all of us should be able to share our experiences and opinions without being told to grow the fuck up. Not cool.

Let's keep the personal attacks at bay, thank you.

 

[ksech]

@Cleveland and all the rest of the members from the US who have replied in this thread...we are beating a dead horse here. No one should have the ability to demean or belittle our beliefs or attitudes on how we deem it right to protect OUR families in our own homes. Until these people have "walked" in our shoes they can say and believe what they want. If you feel that having a gun in YOUR home to protect YOUR family, do it! If you NEVER have to use it, HALLELLUJAH!!!! BUT, if there is that one chance in a gazillion that it saves the life(s) of one family member(s), then HALLELLUJAH!!!!

@Cleveland, every day that you go to work, the minute you put on that uniform you risk YOUR life for mere strangers. Can anyone else say that of their job? Your pay sucks, you see atrocities many of us can only imagine on a daily basis, and how do you ever get any sleep (I'd be having continuous nightmares)? I just want to say THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! for protecting the little people like me every single day.

To everyone else in the rest of the world...I'm happy that you live in such safe, secure environments. I'm happy you have no crime. That your children don't have to worry about pedophiles. You don't have to worry about terrorists flying planes into buildings. Or gun crazed idiots gunning people down in movie theatres or schools or psychopaths building bombs to blow up schools. You don't have to worry about rapists or violent home invasions. You surely live in Utopia!

What I don't get, if the US is such an evil place (by some of your standards in this thread), why are so many people clamoring to come here each and every day????

 

[skiny]

If someone wants a gun bad enough they'll get one - is not a reason to make something legal.

For every person who was protected by owning a gun, deduct one person who was killed by a gun that was originally bought legally.

Take the total number of guns in the US and then deduct the amount used for law enforcement and the amount that have actually been used to protect someone during a burglary or home invasion.

These numbers are the real problem.

 

[The Dude]

...
To everyone else in the rest of the world...I'm happy that you live in such safe, secure environments. I'm happy you have no crime. That your children don't have to worry about pedophiles. You don't have to worry about terrorists flying planes into buildings. Or gun crazed idiots gunning people down in movie theatres or schools or psychopaths building bombs to blow up schools. You don't have to worry about rapists or violent home invasions. You surely live in Utopia!

No one said that the rest of the world was Utopia. Europe has had its share of terrorism, wars, and bad ass problems to include fascist regimes. The fact remains that in the US, it's more violent. Even if we didn't have the tragic shooting last week, we could still be having this conversation as is.

I've touched on a few ideas why it's so violent. It could be the old "pioneer spirit" that has really gone unchecked for the past two hundred years. Or it could be that we all have violent tendencies and Europe needs a war or a fascist dictator every generation or so to keep things in check.

What I don't get, if the US is such an evil place (by some of your standards in this thread), why are so many people clamoring to come here each and every day????

Maybe so they can buy guns? jk

 

[Mousey]

Just a quick question here before I run off to work. If there is stringent gun control, taking simple pistols and rifles away from citizens in their homes, what will farmers and ranchers do? I'm not talking about protecting themselves from criminals, I'm talking about protecting home, family and livestock against snakes, coyotes, bobcats, rabid raccoons, wild dogs, etc.

Those of you in countries with no guns among the citizenry... are your farmers also totally unarmed?

 

[The Dude]

Just a quick question here before I run off to work. If there is stringent gun control, taking simple pistols and rifles away from citizens in their homes, what will farmers and ranchers do? I'm not talking about protecting themselves from criminals, I'm talking about protecting home, family and livestock against snakes, coyotes, bobcats, rabid raccoons, wild dogs, etc.

I seriously don't think it will ever go that far. Assault rifles may be banned, but I'm sure shotguns and hunting rifles will remain where they are.

Those of you in countries with no guns among the citizenry... are your farmers also totally unarmed?

Well in Germany, there aren't any varmints left. No wolves, wildcats, or poisonous snakes etc., thanks to about a million years of varmint stomping humans. I can't think of any reason a farmer would need a gun. Cows graze in the community fields - there aren't any No Trespassing signs at all - no sense of "I own this land - Keep out." People respect the fields, and the only fences you'll see are electric fences to keep the cows or sheep in (if any).

You can own guns and keep them locked up at home. This is for hunting or target shooting (pistols, rifles). Licenses are expensive and you have to undergo training and testing. If you are a die hard hunter, you can do this. People hunt wild boar and deer around our county quite a lot.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I won't post much more on the subject after this one. I found the below from another FB friend. I have not Snopified it though.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A LITTLE GUN HISTORY
In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

In 1911, Turkey established gun control. From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

China established gun control in 1935. From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws adversely affect only the law-abiding citizens.

The next time someone talks in favor of gun control, please remind them of this history lesson.

With guns, we are 'citizens'. Without them, we are 'subjects'.

During WWII the Japanese decided not to invade America because they knew most Americans were ARMED!

SWITZERLAND ISSUES EVERY HOUSEHOLD A GUN!
SWITZERLAND'S GOVERNMENT TRAINS EVERY ADULT THEY ISSUE A RIFLE.
SWITZERLAND HAS THE LOWEST GUN RELATED CRIME RATE OF ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!!!
IT'S A NO BRAINER!
DON'T LET OUR GOVERNMENT WASTE MILLIONS OF OUR TAX DOLLARS IN AN EFFORT TO MAKE ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AN EASY TARGET.

It's time to speak loud before they try to silence and disarm us.
You're not imagining it, history shows that governments always manipulate tragedies to attempt to disarm the people~
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess the message's bottom line is an armed population keeps their government honest or at least not invading their own citizens.

 

[ksech]

No one said that the rest of the world was Utopia. Europe has had its share of terrorism, wars, and bad ass problems to include fascist regimes. The fact remains that in the US, it's more violent. Even if we didn't have the tragic shooting last week, we could still be having this conversation as is.

I've touched on a few ideas why it's so violent. It could be the old "pioneer spirit" that has really gone unchecked for the past two hundred years. Or it could be that we all have violent tendencies and Europe needs a war or a fascist dictator every generation or so to keep things in check.


Maybe so they can buy guns? jk

My attempt at lame sarcasm...If we were sitting a table having this conversation, the body language and voice inflection would tell the true story (I'm an emotional person and have a tendency to "write" more from the heart than from the brain...)...I DO know that Europe has had her share of worldly troubles, some at great cost to the loss of life. My grandmother come here from Germany when she was 13, she stayed on Ellis Island for 11 months. Before she died in 1991 at the age of 93, she put her life story on tape. She was an amazing woman who I greatly respected for all that she accomplished in her life with all the "horrors" she lived through.

You've lived here (in a big city) and chose to move away. You know first hand WHY a person would CHOOSE to own a handgun to protect their family. For a person who has NEVER experienced that type of situation, do not imply that we are "seeing ghosts" or being "brainwashed" into thinking there is danger where there is none. Do not think that we don't care about the woman who has been attacked and raped? Are you a woman who HAS been raped? Do you know what a woman who has been raped has to go through to get her attacker sent to prison? Do you know why some women NEVER report their rapes? Do you honestly think we enjoy hearing on the news there has been another shooting where masses of innocent people have been killed? That we wish there was a way to stop this insanity?

Maybe the US should close it's doors to the foreigners who try to come to here to better their lives? Surely, that would be a start in ensuring some sort of safety within our borders from terrorists. Start sending all the illegals back to where they came from (who may be transporting illegal weapons and drugs onto our soil). Stop sending money in terms of foreign aid to countries who "despise" the US, but love our military aid...leave the military here to protect the US citizens within our borders? Is there really any easy answer?

Make stricter laws to obtain these rifles (although I don't understand why any ordinary individual requires this sort of weapon...). But if an individual really WANTS one of these weapons, they will find a way to obtain one. I don't think most here are IMPLYING people should (or do) run out and buy a gun, but I think those who think we are a gun happy nation would be surprised by how many people do NOT own a handgun for protection. We are more civilized now than the Wild West...at least my vehicle says so every time I go to the gas station (I'm about ready to go BACK to the horse and buggy...it has to be wayyyy cheaper)

And that's about all I'm going to add to this...I need to go find some aspirin now...

 

[Cleveland]

I woke up today with the mission to re-read all of my post in light of a calmer heart. Some of my post could have and should have been worded a lot less emotional.

@ Ksech: Thank you

In the end I hope a solution is found to stop or at least slow down all of the senseless violence.