Gun Control debate - What the hell is wrong with people???

[PNEFOREVER2]

Sorry for back to back posts.


WOW, I never would have guessed that. I thought it may be in the 40's possibly? (hubby guessed 33) but then you have to think about people who own more than one gun. But that's still a lot isn't it? That really surprised me.

Too true.

There are a few things that startle me,this;

"In 2009 there were 9,146 gun-related murders in the US. On a typical day around 100 people are shot. American children are 13 times more likely to be killed with a gun than those elsewhere."

And more noticeably this, a quote from President Obama himself:

“This is our first job — caring for our children. That’s how as a society we will be judged.

"Are we really doing enough to keep our children safe from harm?

“If we are honest with ourselves the answer is ‘No, we are not doing enough’. And we will have to change."

I said earlier Obama seems one of the more intelligent world leaders of recent years,especially when you compare him to bush,clinton,gordon brown etc.I actually really like Obama.

Last but not least from The Sun:

It has been calculated that Americans own around 270 million guns.

For a country with 310-315 million people,that is a most startling statistic.

 

[just play]

It has been calculated that Americans own around 270 million guns.

For a country with 310-315 million people,that is a most startling statistic.

I don't think I would use the word startling, I am surprised.


I guess there are more people pro-guns than I had originally assumed.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

I don't think I would use the word startling, I am surprised.


I guess there are more people pro-guns than I had originally assumed.

I simply used the word 'startling' as it was such in my own opinion.

As for the people that insist on saying "I will not give up my guns",if congress passes this,you will have no choice but to.Police stations will place a bin for you to throw your guns in by a certain date,and if you don't,you simply become the criminals you claim you feel the need to defend yourself against.

 

[just play]

I simply used the word 'startling' as it was such in my own opinion.

As for the people that insist on saying "I will not give up my guns",if congress passes this,you will have no choice but to.Police stations will place a bin for you to throw your guns in by a certain date,and if you don't,you simply become the criminals you claim you feel the need to defend yourself against.

I didn't mean to imply that that wasn't your opinion, I meant I would use the word suprised as my opinion, lol. Does that make sense?


I guess USA people will have to wait and see what is done.


add...I wonder how many percentage of those people who own guns only own hunting guns? I bet it's a high percentage. I would assume nothing will be done with hunting guns.

 

[PNEFOREVER2]

I didn't mean to imply that that wasn't your opinion, I meant I would use the word suprised as my opinion, lol. Does that make sense?


I guess USA people will have to wait and see what is done.


add...I wonder how many percentage of those people who own guns only own hunting guns? I bet it's a high percentage. I would assume nothing will be done with hunting guns.

I know you didn't mean it that way - maybe I could have worded it better by inserting 'as a UK person' seeing as we don't have guns.

I didn't mean it as a pop at your good self

 

[Westland Bowl]

Interesting eerie connections and 3 shooters.

 

[Seventh777]

I didn't mean to imply that that wasn't your opinion, I meant I would use the word suprised as my opinion, lol. Does that make sense?


I guess USA people will have to wait and see what is done.


add...I wonder how many percentage of those people who own guns only own hunting guns? I bet it's a high percentage. I would assume nothing will be done with hunting guns.

Prior to Michael Ryan going berserk in Hungerford he stocked up on ammunition, most of these rounds were the highly expensive 7.62mm caliber for his AK47, he was a member of a local shooting club and had an array of mostly assault rifles and powerful hand guns, what person in their right minds use assault rifles and expensive ammo for target shooting?, the signs were there, but, completely overlooked by those who sell ammunition and those who grant licenses.

The Hungerford massacre led to a complete firearms ban in the UK for any weapon capable of holding more than two rounds (double barrel shotgun), I found this unbelievable, a complete ban owning assault rifles (without good reason) - yes, but banning all guns - no, whilst leaving the firearm that does more damage at close range than any other - the shotgun - completely legal, why should one man going berserk lead to a complete banning of all firearms apart from those that the rich use?, including the Royal family, like I stated earlier, when these people`s brains fry, they`re going to massacre people no matter what, if guns are still being made, they will get them.

I personally think there is more to these incidents than meets the eye, surely everyone who is granted a firearms license/certificate are subjected to a strict psychological profile exam, the self same psychological profile exam that once the deed is done, exposes them to be a prime candidate for what they have done.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just a quick admin note that I'm splitting this thread since there are two definite subjects here: heart-felt sorrow posts and gun control debate. I'll be done in a few.

Edited to add: here is the URL where I've moved a number of posts:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/54269/

 

[Casinomeister]

Just to add my two cents:

I'm one of those Americans who learned to shoot when I was young. I have extensive training in weapons from the military, and when I lived in the States I had three rifles - two bolt action; one semi automatic assault rifle. I only used these rifles in Alaska for protection against the Kodiak brown bear, or for sharks that threatened our catch (refer to my profile pic). I like shooting things, but I won't shoot animals - unless they threaten me. If I can catch fish, I won't hunt. I have never shot a deer. I've shot rabbits as a kid, but we ate them. When I left the States, I disassembled my guns - wrapped them up in oily rags and left them with my sister back home. That's my personal relationship with guns.

There was an interesting article in the German papers this morning that pointed out that a number of countries allow their citizenry to have weapons at home (Canada, Switzerland, Germany, etc.) yet the crimes rates are low. Its main criticism is that what separates the US from other countries is that Americans are known to resort to violence when they deal with conflict (either imaginary or real). I can identify with this since this is pretty much spot on.

Compounding this, there has always been an underlining "outlaw spirit" wherever you go in the States. And this goes back to the old West where gunmen where romanticized and looked upon as heroes. This cowboy mentality is outdated, but it still plagues us all. When I lived in San Diego, sometimes you could hear gunfire at night. There was no way I'd raise my kids there, and this is one of the main reasons why we left.

There is no argument whatsoever for anyone to own an assault rifle. And if I where to return home right now, I'd turn mine in. Individual states ought to invoke strict licensing towards firearms - as they do in Europe. In Germany hunting rifles and side arms are allowed, but you're going to pay up to Euro 3000-5000 for licensing and training. The only people who have guns are hunters; no one feels threatened by anyone here enough to own a gun. Unfortunately, I don't foresee anything serious happening for another generation or two. The news media pumps up the fear factor daily and people envision imaginary threats.

Quoting the second amendment doesn't cut if for me. The American lifestyle was vastly different 250 years ago, and if the founding fathers were able to see what happened last week, they would have either scratched that one or put an expiration date on it. It should have expired decades ago when craziness started becoming the norm.

If you want home security, get a dog or sleep with a baseball bat next to the bed like I do. Collecting guns that are designed to kill people is ludicrous.

 

[chuchu59]

I dont believe you Bryan. Dare you say you have never shot a rogue?

 

[Seventh777]

Interesting eerie connections and 3 shooters.




Very interesting, forensic testing on Lanza`s clothes should reveal spent gunpowder residue and for those he shot at point blank range - traces of blood, also - where he obtained the ammunition.

Enough evidence here proving there were more than one shooter (orally and visually by the police who apprehended them, and eye witness accounts) so why haven`t these other shooters been named, or at least mentioned by the MSM?.

 

[rockycatt]

Very interesting, forensic testing on Lanza`s clothes should reveal spent gunpowder residue and for those he shot at point blank range - traces of blood, also - where he obtained the ammunition.

Enough evidence here proving there were more than one shooter (orally and visually by the police who apprehended them, and eye witness accounts) so why haven`t these other shooters been named, or at least mentioned by the MSM?.

do you have reference to more than one shooter ??

 

[Westland Bowl]

do you have reference to more than one shooter ??

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Casinomeister]

I don't mind conspiracy theories (to some extent), but that should be in another thread. The general topic here is gun control.

 

[just play]

I like shooting things, but I won't shoot animals - unless they threaten me

When I lived in San Diego, sometimes you could hear gunfire at night. There was no way I'd raise my kids there, and this is one of the main reasons why we left.

The news media pumps up the fear factor daily and people envision imaginary threats.

If you want home security, get a dog or sleep with a baseball bat next to the bed like I do. Collecting guns that are designed to kill people is ludicrous

Gunfire at night is a daily occurance in the city I showed the crime rates for. And the sad thing is, these days people can't just pick up and leave, there are thousands and thousands that live on their check week by week, scraping to get buy, not enough money for food or meds, etc. These aren't imaginary threats, if you heard gunfire at night, you weren't imagining it. A dog or a baseball bat has no chance over a gun. You hear a noise downstairs, you get up and grab your baseball bat...you and criminal meet. You take a swing, he fires. I understand what you mean by media, but some threats are not imaginary and you know this since you said you heard gunfire at night.

I said earlier I would never own a gun, BUT if I lived in certain areas I would change my mind. As I said, it's nice to say some people leave the "bad" cities, but not all people are lucky enough to have the chance to leave. Other people have never lived next to these high crime rate cities, so they don't have first hand knowledge of what it's like to live in a crime filled area.

Criminals will always get guns. And a dog or baseball bat isn't enough security for some people. Do you honestly think if a criminal holding a gun hears a dog he will turn around and walk out?

no one feels threatened by anyone here enough to own a gun

That's where you live. Everyone would like to live under rainbows and eat skittles? But not everyone lives in a safe environment like you do, to not feel threatened. I think this is the main reason why some are for and some are against guns. I've been saying over and over in this thread, it depends where you live.

Collecting guns that are designed to kill people is ludicrous

Ok, what about having one gun that is designed to protect your family from criminals?

 

[Casinomeister]

That's where you live. Everyone would like to live under rainbows and eat skittles? But not everyone lives in a safe environment like you do, to not feel threatened. I think this is the main reason why some are for and some are against guns. I've been saying over and over in this thread, it depends where you live.

I live in Europe that has seen millions killed within the last two generations via guns and other means of violence. Europeans know the price for peace and respect their laws. But it isn't all rainbows, Europe has had her share of violent shootings - but nothing like the States. Like I said before, Americans in general terms are inherently violent. They feel threatened, they buy a gun. In Europe, when you feel threatened, you call the cops - or grab a baseball bat.

Ok, what about having one gun that is designed to protect your family from criminals?

In close quarters I could take down an intruder with a baseball bat no problem. And when it's over with, at least I don't have a lethal weapon lying around waiting for some kid to blow his brains out. We can go outside and play ball.

 

[dionysus]

Id be hard pressed to name one of ten friends who ever locked their door, myself included. I mean, its just something ive never had to do. Granted, i live in the city now, but my dogs have cornered the poor UPS guy so i dont think ill need to anytime soon lol; they would never let anyone in the house. Im with bryan on 2 points...if youre worried about intruders, get a dog, theres some fiercely protective ones of their families and envirnment while still being kid and family safe and they make awesome early warning detection systems that make a bat ample ummunition, but frankly, the dogs alone would ward pretty much even the worst offenders off from entering

 

[just play]

I was just playing online pool with a 46 year old male from Wales. Some people chat a lot, he was one of them. We talked about family, sports, etc..so I HAD to ask a few questions.

Me: what do you think about guns/gun control

Him: I think they should be banned

Me: Is there much crime in Wales?

Him: There is some but not much

We continued to talk, he was very friendly...I'm always curious what other people from other countries think of us...

So I ask...

Me: what do people from Wales think of Americans?

Him: we like the people but not the government

Me: how's your government?

Him: very bad, they only think of the rich


Then we got talking about all of his kids and my kids, so the conversation never led back to the gun debate.


I thought it was interesting again...He said there wasn't much crime, so he thinks guns should be banned. That's the common denominator I believe. No crime or low crime, ban guns....high crime don't ban guns.

 

[dionysus]

I was just playing online pool with a 46 year old male from Wales. Some people chat a lot, he was one of them. We talked about family, sports, etc..so I HAD to ask a few questions.

Me: what do you think about guns/gun control

Him: I think they should be banned

Me: Is there much crime in Wales?

Him: There is some but not much

We continued to talk, he was very friendly...I'm always curious what other people from other countries think of us...

So I ask...

Me: what do people from Wales think of Americans?

Him: we like the people but not the government

Me: how's your government?

Him: very bad, they only think of the rich


Then we got talking about all of his kids and my kids, so the conversation never led back to the gun debate.


I thought it was interesting again...He said there wasn't much crime, so he thinks guns should be banned. That's the common denominator I believe. No crime or low crime, ban guns....high crime don't ban guns.

so how come noone equates that there's high crime BECAUSE there's guns?

 

[just play]

so how come noone equates that there's high crime BECAUSE there's guns?

Just because there's a high crime rate, doesn't mean it's all done with guns.

What is the worst crime you can think of?

For me it's killing, raping, abducting children.

Besides these mass murders happening, the other crimes against children are done without the use of a gun, (mostly) you hear about them strangled, knifed, suffocated, etc..you rarely hear the criminal shot the child. Or even worse Jerry Sandusky passing around children to his sick pedophile friends for years, none of those children were shot, they were molested over and over.



I would like to add...I would never own another type of dog in my life...I'm hooked on greyhounds forever. And if a criminal came into my house, they would run up to him and say "hi, how are you" with their tails wagging.

 

[Westland Bowl]

There is a YouTube video by Brits who reported a 40% INCREASE in gun crime after guns were banned. I am not able to provide link through mobile phone.

 

[Mousey]

I'm torn as to gun control laws. I live and grew up here in the south - the rural south. When I was in high school (yeah, yeah, the way-back machine) during hunting season, most of the boys came to school with their hunting rifles hanging on a gun rack in the back window of their (or their dad's) truck -- sometimes hunting before or after school. We never thought anything about it, the school and staff never thought anything of it, and no one came ever into the school blasting away.

I learned how to load and fire pistols, rifles, and shotguns at my daddy's knee. Dad worked construction and was often away from home. Mom was a total klutz and would be a danger to all with a loaded weapon, so knowing where the guns and ammo were, and how to use them, were left to me. I knew what guns were for, I knew they weren't toys, and I've only fired one with intent to harm or kill once, at a coyote that was after our old dog.

As for a ball bat for protection should someone break into my home... hubby might be able to do some damage, but I doubt the attacker/thief would do anything but laugh at my poor attempts to protect myself. Having said that, we don't have so much as a .22 pistol in the house... but we do have a couple of ball bats lying about. LOL Home invasion happens all too often around here - especially this time of year.... and the rural areas are most at risk. While I don't think ANYONE needs an AK-47 or semi automatic whatever, a good rifle or .38 S&W would make me more comfortable if I lived way out in the country. Call the cops? 45 minutes later you might have one drive up. We live in town, so we might get a cop to our home in 15 minutes - if he's not already called out for something else going on. A lot can happen in 15 minutes.

Now.. sadly, I feel none of what I said above has anything to do with that boy that killed those children. Had he not had weapons to hand, he would have found something else... explosives.. fire... poison... something... because it was what was in his head that drove him - not what was at hand. I can only see two reasons for what he did -- paranoid schizophrenia (onset usually in late teens) or he was a sociopath (not being religious, I hesitate to use the word evil, but sociopaths have something important missing and they are evil, totally without conscience). Either way... the babies are dead, he is dead, and unless we find out what is causing these freaks to act out on the fantastical notions floating around in their brains, it's going to keep happening.

 

[skiny]

Gunfire at night is a daily occurance in the city I showed the crime rates for. And the sad thing is, these days people can't just pick up and leave, there are thousands and thousands that live on their check week by week, scraping to get buy, not enough money for food or meds, etc. These aren't imaginary threats, if you heard gunfire at night, you weren't imagining it. A dog or a baseball bat has no chance over a gun. You hear a noise downstairs, you get up and grab your baseball bat...you and criminal meet. You take a swing, he fires. I understand what you mean by media, but some threats are not imaginary and you know this since you said you heard gunfire at night.

I said earlier I would never own a gun, BUT if I lived in certain areas I would change my mind. As I said, it's nice to say some people leave the "bad" cities, but not all people are lucky enough to have the chance to leave. Other people have never lived next to these high crime rate cities, so they don't have first hand knowledge of what it's like to live in a crime filled area.

Criminals will always get guns. And a dog or baseball bat isn't enough security for some people. Do you honestly think if a criminal holding a gun hears a dog he will turn around and walk out?

Actually a criminal would probably be a lot more scared of big dog barking than the chance that the home owner might be armed. If a criminal knows there's a large dog in the house it would probably deemed not worth the effort or the risk and unless there was something specifically in that house that he was looking for he would probably move on. If we're talking about home invasions or burglaries the last thing I would want to do is start firing my gun at a dog. You don't get to hang around long after you start shooting.

One of the things that should be remembered is most of the guns that criminals own have been stolen from the houses that store them. I'm sure there are thefts from gun shops or shooting ranges but those places are usually fairly well protected. To steal guns from a gun shop you need to get through caged windows and a security system. This is why I keep saying if people didn't keep guns in their homes there would be a lot less of them around for criminals to steal in the first place. If you want to decrease the amount of guns the criminals have you have to cut off the supply. The problem is the people supplying them have a constitutional right to keep them around where they can be stolen.

Hand guns and single or double shot hunting rifles are bad enough but these automatic weapons are paydirt when some thief breaks into a house and finds one of those lying around. I have no idea why people are even allowed to own these. They are designed for one purpose. To shoot as many bullets as it can as fast as possible. They are designed to take out multiple targets with little to no aim. People buy these assault weapons that they have virtually no use for unless they are planning a killing spree and store them in their homes where criminals can steal them. And now you've just put a military grade assault rifle in the hands of some idiot criminal. And the best solution they can come up with is to buy MORE guns and store those in the same place the criminals stole the first ones. In their homes.

That's where you live. Everyone would like to live under rainbows and eat skittles? But not everyone lives in a safe environment like you do, to not feel threatened. I think this is the main reason why some are for and some are against guns. I've been saying over and over in this thread, it depends where you live.

Skittles probably taste ok but I don't eat things that sound like an STD. "She's a nice girl but I hear she has skittles."

Ok, what about having one gun that is designed to protect your family from criminals?

A. You have to be trained to use it.
B. You have to be sensible enough to know when not to use it.
C. You have to store it in a locked cabinet with a trigger lock and the ammunition store separately if you have children in your home. Which makes it rather useless if the criminal is already breaking in.
D. You have to be willing to shoot and possibly kill someone without question. Because if a nut case sees you holding a gun there's a pretty good chance he's going shoot first and not wait to find out if you're really going to shoot him.
E. If an unarmed criminal breaks in when you're not home - you've just armed him.
F. You have to be ok with the guy next door owning one. No matter who he is. Because it's his right too.

 

[skiny]

I'm torn as to gun control laws. I live and grew up here in the south - the rural south. When I was in high school (yeah, yeah, the way-back machine) during hunting season, most of the boys came to school with their hunting rifles hanging on a gun rack in the back window of their (or their dad's) truck -- sometimes hunting before or after school. We never thought anything about it, the school and staff never thought anything of it, and no one came ever into the school blasting away.

I learned how to load and fire pistols, rifles, and shotguns at my daddy's knee. Dad worked construction and was often away from home. Mom was a total klutz and would be a danger to all with a loaded weapon, so knowing where the guns and ammo were, and how to use them, were left to me. I knew what guns were for, I knew they weren't toys, and I've only fired one with intent to harm or kill once, at a coyote that was after our old dog.

As for a ball bat for protection should someone break into my home... hubby might be able to do some damage, but I doubt the attacker/thief would do anything but laugh at my poor attempts to protect myself. Having said that, we don't have so much as a .22 pistol in the house... but we do have a couple of ball bats lying about. LOL Home invasion happens all too often around here - especially this time of year.... and the rural areas are most at risk. While I don't think ANYONE needs an AK-47 or semi automatic whatever, a good rifle or .38 S&W would make me more comfortable if I lived way out in the country. Call the cops? 45 minutes later you might have one drive up. We live in town, so we might get a cop to our home in 15 minutes - if he's not already called out for something else going on. A lot can happen in 15 minutes.

Now.. sadly, I feel none of what I said above has anything to do with that boy that killed those children. Had he not had weapons to hand, he would have found something else... explosives.. fire... poison... something... because it was what was in his head that drove him - not what was at hand. I can only see two reasons for what he did -- paranoid schizophrenia (onset usually in late teens) or he was a sociopath (not being religious, I hesitate to use the word evil, but sociopaths have something important missing and they are evil, totally without conscience). Either way... the babies are dead, he is dead, and unless we find out what is causing these freaks to act out on the fantastical notions floating around in their brains, it's going to keep happening.

If his mother hadn't stored those guns and showed him how to use them (especially the semi-automatic) we can't say what would have happened. If he set fire to the place maybe nobody would have died. If he brought a knife maybe nobody would have died. We have no idea what was going on inside this guy's head. If he didn't have access and training to use these guns maybe he would have only injured his mother instead of killing her first and maybe she could have warned someone or maybe he might have just found some way to kill himself instead. And maybe nothing would have changed this time but maybe last time it would have or the next time. What I do know is these things keep happening and if we change nothing then how do we expect things to be different in the future?

I do agree that mental illness is a serious issue and needs to be addressed better than it is in the US and in Canada. I think that it's taken a lot more seriously here now than it has been in the past but there's still a long way to go toward diagnoses and treatment. There is no single answer because there is no single question.

Why do people snap?
Why don't people know they're going to snap until it's too late?
Why do they choose the actions they do? e.g. Shooting up a school or movie theater. Where did they get the weapons they used to do it?

There are more but you get the point.

 

[just play]

A. You have to be trained to use it.
B. You have to be sensible enough to know when not to use it.
C. You have to store it in a locked cabinet with a trigger lock and the ammunition store separately if you have children in your home. Which makes it rather useless if the criminal is already breaking in.
D. You have to be willing to shoot and possibly kill someone without question. Because if a nut case sees you holding a gun there's a pretty good chance he's going shoot first and not wait to find out if you're really going to shoot him.
E. If an unarmed criminal breaks in when you're not home - you've just armed him.
F. You have to be ok with the guy next door owning one. No matter who he is. Because it's his right too.

A. I'm sure that's common sense for gun owners. We have heard from a few gun owners in this thread, I believe all of them say they were trained since a young age.
B. That's a givin.
C. Not according to Mousey who was in charge of the guns, not her mother. (I'm just going by what she said, I don't know her age at the time) Again, as I said many times, she grew up where this was the "norm".
D. I HATE guns, if I was to get one, and I was standing there in front of a criminal I would shoot with no problem to protect my daughter as would any other parent, I believe, we do anything to protect our children.
E. Why? Did I leave a map on the front door directing him to the gun?
F. I am ok with that.