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Grand Monaco winnings confiscated

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by embruwer, Oct 27, 2006.

    Oct 27, 2006
  1. embruwer

    embruwer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    London
    Hi there, what happened is I signed up at Grand Monaco, deposited 150 GBP, and wagered it once in slots to receive their slots bonus. On their T&C, it says that every game is allowed:
    The wagering contribution percentages for the 30x play-through requirement is different based on the game type played as follows:
    - Slots and Parlor Games - 100%
    - Table Poker, Roulette - 25% Blackjack, Video Poker, Craps, Baccarat, Casino War, Sicbo - 5%
    - Progressive Slots and Games, Red Dog, All Aces and Jacks or Better Video Poker - 0%
    I played blackjack and roulette with my bonus until my bonus balance was 0 and I could withdraw, at which point I withdrew 870. Several days later I saw that there was nothing in my neteller account so I went to check the CashCheck feature which said my cashout had been processed!
    I spoke with livechat about this and they told me that they were going to give me back my deposit only because I used the slots bonus to play non slots games, even though their T&C allows it. Apparently there is a second item lower down in the T&C which says that they will consider it abuse if someone uses the slots bonus for non slots games.
    This obviously means that their T&C contradicts itself and a player will easily be misled by not finding the second item, which is all the way down in their long T&C. Basically they are saying that all games are allowed, then 5 pages below they say that only slots are allowed. It doesnt really make sense.
    What I ask is that even if I don't get paid my owed 720 GBP, that they be placed back in my casino account so I can complete the wagering again in whatever game they like, this seems much fairer than them just confiscating it. On another slight tangent, it seems fishy that even though this casino uses Microgaming they are not a member of E-Cogra as well, which would rather help players in situations like mine.
    My apologies for the longwinded post.
     
  2. Oct 27, 2006
  3. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    You might want to PM Jon-Jon who is very helpful.

    Go to the Casino Contacts List . Scroll down until you see Jon-Jon, then click on the PM button on the right.

    If nothing else he might be able to clarify the T&C.

    Good Luck.
     
  4. Oct 27, 2006
  5. Tagdog

    Tagdog Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Sales
    Location:
    England
    afraid you might be onto a loser here, G.Monaco have extremely whore unfriendly wording in their terms and although a bit misleading the term is there on the main page and the bonus name kind of gives it away. My suggestion of a fair resolution would be to reset you balance to the balance you had when the 150 bonus was first applied. then you would have to do the 30x slots wagering.
     
  6. Oct 27, 2006
  7. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    I'm not trying to be harsh embruwer, but I just went and double checked the promo on Grand Monaco's website, and to me it's crystal clear. 100% bonus up to $150 for a slots only bonus, 100% bonus up to $75 for an all games bonus. How you wager through your deposit once determines which bonus you receive. It states quite clearly that if you wager your deposit once in slots only, you will be getting the slots only bonus. Had you mixed your games up when wagering your deposit, you would have received the $75 all games bonus, instead of $150. I really don't see how anyone could misunderstand this, sorry.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Oct 27, 2006
  9. embruwer

    embruwer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    London
    You didnt understand what I said! I wagered my 150 deposit in slots only exactly as the terms said. I wagered the bonus I received in other games because thats what the terms on top say, you can probably see that is crystal clear as well.
     
  10. Oct 27, 2006
  11. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    No embruwer, I understood that you wagered your deposit on slots. My point was that I don't see how anyone could misunderstand a bonus that is named Slots Only....how can that be misconstrued? I wouldn't even have to read any terms and conditions. The names of the two bonuses says it all...if you want to play slots, you take the slots only bonus. If you wish to play all games, you take the lesser amount all games bonus. You signify which bonus you want by wagering your deposit accordingly. Sorry, but I just don't see it any other way.
     
  12. Oct 27, 2006
  13. embruwer

    embruwer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    London
    Ok I will try to make it clear:

    This only says that I have to wager in slots only to get the 150 bonus, nothing more nothing less.

    This refers to both bonuses and says that they both have the same 30x wagering requirements.

    This explains the 30x wagering requirements and clearly states that all games are allowed.

    These are the T&C items 3,4,5 in the "Wagering Requirements to Cash-in Purchase and Opening Offer Bonus " section. I really dont see how this can be construed as "slots only" in the slightest.
     
  14. Oct 27, 2006
  15. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia
    First of all I played and obtained the Slots Only bonus at this Casino about 2 months ago in the exact same fashion as embruwer. I played anything else but slots in subsequent play and cashed out winnings and my original deposit without any problem at all. I recall making some large bets on Baccarat cashing out prior to completing onerous x30B WRs as per EZ play T+Cs.

    I now see this in the T+Cs:

    "Grand Monaco deems promotion abuse to include but not to be limited to any of the following:
    A. receiving a promotion bonus then cashing in without demonstrating a reasonable degree of play
    B. attempting a large wager(s) with the bonus funds in an attempt to circumvent play through wager requirements of the bonus system
    C. purchasing and playing slots to maximize the opening match slot offer then switching their play to non-slot games and using abusive wagering tactics/systems. This abuse allows players to use bonus credits earned with slot play to use on or hedge against wagering losses on their non-slot game play. "

    This type of language is "player abuse". It is deliberately ambiguous and designed to insure against legitimate player wins. I mean WTF is "abusive wagering tactics/systems"? I suppose anything that can turn a profit for the players and a loss for the Casino.

    Rogue this mob and rogue them quickly.


    $$$
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Oct 27, 2006
  17. Pinababy69

    Pinababy69 RIP Lisa

    Occupation:
    Crusader
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario - Canada
    You guys can interpret things however you like. All I know is that I would never dream of claiming a bonus that's named "SLOTS ONLY" and then proceed to play any games BESIDES slots with that bonus. Especially when directly underneath there is a bonus on offer entitled "ALL GAMES BONUS". Colour me stupid I guess.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Oct 27, 2006
  19. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia

    Not wanting to be rude Pinababy69 but the language used in the T+Cs can not be mistaken for anything other than the ORIGINAL 1 X WRs determine the SIZE of the bonus awarded only. Once the pre-qualifying WRs have been fulfilled the EZ play bonus T+Cs apply lock, stock and barrel.

    I am sorry you can not grasp what is going on here but the OP is absolutely entitled to his full winnings as per the published T+Cs. The very introduction of EZ (Clear) play was to remove all of these ambiguities but it didn't take long for Casinos to overwrite a supposedly seamless bonus system with all manner of fine print.


    ...
     
  20. Oct 27, 2006
  21. silcnlayc

    silcnlayc Just one more spin pleez! CAG MM PABnonaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    IT Director of Operations
    Location:
    Left Hungary
    Ok, maybe I am a little blonde, but it clearly states SLOT just as YOU wrote it....hmmm
    Me too I guess....
    But for which bonus? Slots only? I think not, for this wouldn't make any sense, to offer this also
    But this would so you misinterpreted the t&c's.
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Oct 27, 2006
  23. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia
    Here we go again.

    Wager your deposit on Slots and get the "Slots" bonus of $150.

    Wager your deposit on ALL Games and get the "ALL" bonus of $75.

    When the initial qualifying WRs are completed the distinction between the respective bonuses is OVER saving the AMOUNT of bonus awarded. By risking your original deposit on only SLOTS players are rewarded with a larger bonus. Very simple.

    Take a deep breath and go back and read the T+Cs. The very engagement of the EZ play bonus mechanism is proof positive that ALL games are allowed. If they were not then any game other than SLOTS would have been excluded from the subsequent bonus qualification WRs logged by EZ play. This was NOT the case - the EZ play system verified the player had fulfilled the WRs on games played.

    It can not get any simpler than this - I am very sorry you can not, or will not, understand the concept of the EZ play bonus.


    ...
     
  24. Oct 30, 2006
  25. Jon-Jon

    Jon-Jon Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Entrepreneur
    Location:
    South Africa
    Hi everyone

    Having investigated this account, and spoken to the casino, the play was deemed to be in contravention of the casinos terms and conditions as it was a slots only bonus that could not be used on any other games.

    The casino did however refund the deposit and the player was able to cash out.

    Unfortunately these scenarios do crop up from time to time and the casino does try and deal with each one in as fair and diplomatic way as possible, without prejudicing themselves or the player. I hope you felt that the casino was clear and fair enough, if not I can ensure that we improve our service in the future.

    All the best
     
  26. Oct 31, 2006
  27. embruwer

    embruwer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    London
    Obviously I understand this. My points are the following two:

    a) The casino has two sets of terms, the first one says that all games are allowed and is the one that catches the eye, the second one is somewhat hidden in the terms and says that only slots are.

    b) The casino should have no right to confiscate my winnings under the circumstances, but rather they should reverse the cashout and tell me which games are allowed and which aren't. Confiscation without warning here seems like something only a shady outfit would do, and I don't think they should be able to get away with such a policy.

    Apparently the casino has decided to be unreasonable here so what are my options? Would pitching a bitch help?
     
  28. Oct 31, 2006
  29. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia
    They don't answer to anyone let alone the voice of reason. The perils of on-line gaming are very real and the USA have recently seen fit to deal with the matter by way of prohibition in the abscence of Casino operators demonstrating they are in any way capable of self-regulation.

    In my view you have an iron clad case. Notwithstanding the previous points I have already made the following only reinforces your situation.

    "10. When the Bonus System is used for the promotion, the terms and conditions around the Bonus System will prevail."

    Your play was audited and logged by the EZ play system. The EZ play system entitles players to wager in any game. Nothing in the T+Cs prohibits players from wagering in games other than slots AFTER the type of bonus is determined by the qualifying WRs.

    The bonus offer, splashed in large print, reads:

    "We will match your deposit by 100% with up to 150 in Free bonus credits if your deposit was wagered on Slots only."

    The phrase "was wagered" is past tense. These is nothing that follows in the accompanying T+Cs that then refer to future WRs restrictions with respect to games available to play. As term 10 quoted above states "..the terms and conditions of the Bonus System will prevail" - all games count in accordance with the percentages quoted.

    And I remind you that I played this "slots only" qualifying bonus in the exact same fashion as the OP and cashed out with no problems.


    ...
     
  30. Oct 31, 2006
  31. embruwer

    embruwer Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Teacher
    Location:
    London
    Yes I feel the casino practically has zero recourse here, but what can I do to actually get my money back? Jon Jon, who I take it is some manager at the casino, was apparently no help. Can casinomeister help me?
     
  32. Nov 1, 2006
  33. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    EZ Bonus - NOT!

    Yet another case of "EZBonus" being anything but.
    I certainly would have interpreted the terms as requiring all play to be on slots after receiving a slots bonus, HOWEVER, using EZBonus to record and calculate the wagering simply causes confusion.
    Once the decision had been made to utilise EZBonus, the slots bonus should have been removed as a promotion and all new players given an "all games" bonus of an amount designed to cost the same overall as the earlier promotion.
    This promising casino has just trashed it's reputation for clarity by trying to use EZBonus in a way that was not intended by MGS when it was developed.
    I would like to see MGS using licensing agreements to enforce correct use of EZBonus by all casinos that make it available.
    With regard to play on other games, EZBonus already makes a distinction in the way wagering is weighted at 50% all the way down to 2% on non-slot games. Casinos are able to change this themselves, even on an individual account basis (Jackpot Factory VIP vs new member).
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Nov 1, 2006
  35. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    Ditto!!
     
  36. Nov 2, 2006
  37. sdaddy

    sdaddy Meister Member

    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Arizona
    While one could argue that how the player wagered the bonus went against the spirit of the promotion, the play was nevertheless valid according to the T&C.

    Just pay the player, Grand Monaco, and take it as a lesson learned to write your T&Cs better.
     
  38. Nov 2, 2006
  39. pangloss

    pangloss Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Finance
    Location:
    Australia

    Thank goodness - a moment of clarity has arrived. And you're right on the spirit over taking the literal senses. People are understanding what they think the bonus T+Cs are saying rather than actually taking the time to read and apply an ordinary literal interpretation of the published T+Cs.

    Compare the Slots only T+Cs at Spin Palace. Not only are the T+Cs spelt out in unmistakable clarity but the EZ bonus system is disengaged from the course of play. No room for any misinterpretation here.

    Pay the player what he is rightfully due Grand Monaco.

    ...
     

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