Grand Banks Problems (here we go...)

[IggyWH]

Well, I should have known, but I thought maybe the discussion that happened at GIGSE 2005 would change things so I gave Grand Banks a try.

I guess old habbits die hard though as now they are refusing to pay me my winnings and are going to return my deposit (minus a $15 administration fee). Here's an actual copy of the email I was sent :

Based on your recent activity at Grand Banks on June 28th, 2005, your
account has been system flagged for apparent bonus abuse. As such, your play
and bonus will be void and your initial deposit has been returned.

From the Casino Terms & Conditions:
"Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a
given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their
accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department
determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus,
the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this
promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

Promotional bonuses are not made available for the exploitation of the
casino, but for the additional entertainment value provided to our member
players."

Clarence Evans

Manager
Grand Banks

Filing my PIB for this right now...

 

[The Dude]

You can PM the casino manager here as well:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/thechancegroup.4765/

 

[IggyWH]

You can PM the casino manager here as well:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/thechancegroup.4765/

Thank you sir...

It's a sad day when I have to end my browsing and make my first post because of a casino issue

 

[chuchu59]

I am amused by the Ts and Cs. What are bonus hunter characteristics. The bonus is there to attract new players. If everything had been followed to the letter,how can there be abuse. Although I dont know the details of this case,Grand Banks should have stated specifically what the player did wrong instead of repeating the Terms and Conditions.

The casinomeister has just put this casino on probation less than a week ago. How it handles this case should prove to be a litmus test on whether it should continue to be rogued.

 

[IggyWH]

Well, to give an update, I PM'd the person Bryan gave me a link to and told them the situation. They sent me a return PM a couple of hours later telling me that they would look into things and get back to me before the days end.

I got a response from them recently and here it is :

Hello Matthew,

Looking further into your inquiry, the reason that you received the e-mail message from the Casino Manager flagging your account as someone who is using the bonus for financial gain and not entertainment value was deemed because of your playing habits.
When a "new" player comes to a casino, sign-ups, deposits, plays, receives the bonus and then withdrawals all under 2 hours, this is contrude as using the bonus for financial gain and not for entertainment. This is clearly stated in the "Terms & Conditions".
When a player signs up under any casino, they agree to the "Terms & Conditions" of that particular casino, like any other service agreement.
Your deposit of $275 was returned back to your NETeller account less the $15 administration fees.
If you feel that your playing habit can be interpretted any other way, please contact me. I would like to find a resolution where both parties are understood.
I am also here for any other concerns regarding Grand Banks Casino, so please contact me anytime.

Jeannette Wallace

So I guess it's not looking too good for me to get paid, however I did at least receive my deposit (minus $15) back.

If by reading this you want to know why I played through so quick, it was because I decided I'd "bite the bullet" and be the guinea pig for my friends who wanted to try out Grand Banks but were hesitant due to their past actions. I still followed their terms completely for the bonus and did their account verification form, which is a real pain in the butt since they want it hand written and I don't have a printer, scanner or fax machine.

I feel as though I did nothing wrong and because I followed their terms, I deserve to be paid.

 

[Tdoggy]

agree with you

You should be paid. According to these e-mails by them you did no wrong. Who cares what amount of time you played at their casino! Again what a joke! Another online casino trying to scam someone. Gee what a shock! Well I hope the Casinomeister can get you paid! Because you are 100% in the right.

 

[thelawnet]

When a "new" player comes to a casino, sign-ups, deposits, plays, receives the bonus and then withdrawals all under 2 hours, this is contrude as using the bonus for financial gain and not for entertainment.

Ha ha ha.

So the bonus is for entertainment?

Translated: you are only allowed to lose.

What's entertaining about that?

If it really was for entertainment value, then why do they ask you to deposit $250 of your own money. I don't know of many pursuits that are not 'for financial gain' where you stick down $250 just for 'entertainment'.

Well, I can think of one, but for $250 I think you'd get a lot more than some computerized playing cards.

So you have to wager x what you deposited.... If you lose it, it's entertaining for them because they are going to laugh their asses off at you because you are the sucker that paid $250 for 'entertainment'. And then they have another good laugh when you ask for your money back after busting out, which presumably was a major possibility playing several thousand in 2 hours as they described it.

And if you win, then they still get to laugh as they take your winnings away, plus $15 because you have been so well entertained by their Dick Turpin act....

I am not sure anyone can come up with a defense for these not-so-funny clowns.

 

[nafanny29]

That reply from Jeannete Wallace is laughable. If they dont like people playing with a bonus when signing up then WHY OFFER A GOD DAM BONUS. What a real joke some online casinos really are.

I can just imagine getting a room comp in Vegas, having a good win and then on checking out get a room bill for the sum of my winnings because I "abused" the room comp.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Absolutely disgusting to see these pulling this so soon after their apparent desire to clean up their act (yeah right )

The reply from Jeanette is a complete joke - when are casinos going to learn that stealing players winnings and or bonuses after they have played by using the 'management reserves the right' etc bullshit rules is just not acceptable.

Once a rogue always a rogue.

 

[thelawnet]

Absolutely disgusting to see these pulling this so soon after their apparent desire to clean up their act (yeah right )

The reply from Jeanette is a complete joke - when are casinos going to learn that stealing players winnings and or bonuses after they have played by using the 'management reserves the right' etc bullshit rules is just not acceptable.

Once a rogue always a rogue.

yep.

They quite clearly have a business policy to get people's money by false pretences: deposit and lose - they get your money, deposit and win - they get your money.

It's quite simple they deliberately seek to attract people with their 150% bonuses, and their 'blackjack bonus', and have specific wager requirements which are just a lie, a plain and simple cheating lie, because they have demonstrated that if you follow their terms and conditions they will say you are bonus hunting or whatever.

So why can't they just say upfront 'you must wager 100x the bonus' or whatever their real wager requirement not to steal your money, not this contemptible rogue behaviour of saying 'To cash out, complete your bonus-playthrough requirements of 15 times rollover.', when it's clear that if you do just that and are lucky enough not to bust, they will deny your cashout, on the basis that you didn't play enough and didn't reach the secret real requirement.....

So come on guys, what do people need to do not to have you steal their money?

Would 50 times be enough? 100 times?

And if so, why can't you so rather than playing this cheating game.

 

[paul02085]

You people better watch out. Your comments are bordering on verbal acidity and are not allowed!

I am sure it will all work out. I mean, I have faith that an outfit that point blank admits to stalling in every way they can before they will pay out is going to do the right thing in the end.

 

[Tdoggy]

ha ha ha ha

Watch out for what???? What a joke! These guys scam so many people and everyone knows about it. Should Casinomeister have to solve every players problem with these guys???? How much time does he have to put in just to get people paid because these guys will continue to stall people for who knows how long! Avoid them at all costs. Not worth the trouble at all....

 

[kfellmy]

I was wondering if you could play then wait a day or two...play a bit more and then cashout. See what happens then.

This place is shady but depositing, playing the minimum and cashing out right afterwards is a big red flag. On casinos that no cover is needed the fast cashout is fine, but for those casinos that are bad (and should be rogued) some discretion is in order. I have played many casinos and never had a problem (even from the ones I did win at.) I have never been banned from any casino...yet.

I never play and cashout the same day (except for Intercasino). Always wait. Do your WR the first day. Do 100 in wagers the next two days and cashout the fourth day. Never failed me yet...plus you might hit a royal at VP.

 

[jetset]

On the basis of this experience it would appear that the leopard has not changed it's spots after all...or perhaps Brian Woods has not passed on to his staff his promise to the 'Meister that his casinos would be flying right in the future in order to get off the rogue list.

These are no grounds for disqualification - the player met all the T&Cs set by the casino at the time of his wagering, and he/she should therefore be paid. If the casino subsequently decides that his/her playing pattern suggests that of a bonus abuser then it has the right of admission to exercise, or the right to exclude the player from any further promotions.

This is not the way to behave at all.

 

[chuchu59]

Well, to give an update, I PM'd the person Bryan gave me a link to and told them the situation. They sent me a return PM a couple of hours later telling me that they would look into things and get back to me before the days end.

I got a response from them recently and here it is :



So I guess it's not looking too good for me to get paid, however I did at least receive my deposit (minus $15) back.

If by reading this you want to know why I played through so quick, it was because I decided I'd "bite the bullet" and be the guinea pig for my friends who wanted to try out Grand Banks but were hesitant due to their past actions. I still followed their terms completely for the bonus and did their account verification form, which is a real pain in the butt since they want it hand written and I don't have a printer, scanner or fax machine.

I feel as though I did nothing wrong and because I followed their terms, I deserve to be paid.

Iggy,

I am beginning to think that you are the one who doesnt understand. When you made a deposit at Grand Banks,you are first given a bonus and then the whole balance is immediately transferred to the 'play for fun' account. You play and when you have had enough,you make a withdrawal. Obviously,since its a 'fun' account,you are only entitiled to your deposit back(no winnings allowed). And come on,for such a load of entertainment,you are only paying 15 bucks. In addition,they are providing extra service to you by novel interpretations of the terms and conditions. Be thankful for that. You are getting back $260 which is a lot more than what other players have got back from this 'magnificent casino'. So what are you complaining about?

 

[The Dude]

Hi all,

Breezing through here for the moment - and before everyone gets all riled up grabbing the torches and pitchforks - please remember one thing:

When you sign up at a casino, you agree to accept their terms and conditions:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

You agreed to this - if you didn't like the wording of this, you should have gone elsewhere.

 

[IggyWH]

Hello Bryan,

Thank you for your time for the reply. Sadly though it seems like you are on the casino's side in this matter. I'd like to think the lines of communication are still open between me and the casino but I have not heard back from them in almost a day so you might be my only hope. I've been shying away from discussing this in public, but here goes :

1)How can one be a bonus abuser when they follow COMPLETELY the rules set forth by the casino concerning the bonus?

The bonus terms were deposit $250, wager 5 times that (1250), then the bonus is credited (110% so $275). Then, to cashout, you have to wager the bonus 15 times (4125). Everything said here was first cleared by Live Support, which included me asking if I could cashout after wagering the bonus 15 times and was told yes. I do not have a screenshot of this conversation with Live Support but I'm sure the casino has a log file of this chat (or at least they should).

I deposited $275 (a little more than I had to but that was what was in my Neteller at the time) and played 4-line Jacks or Better at 25 cents a coin, max coins for $5 each turn. After wagering around 500 worth, I got bored and increased my coin size to 50 cent coins so $10 a turn. I kept my wagering progress using the comp points system. At 139 comp points (which would be wagering 1390), I contacted Live Support about the bonus. I probably only needed to wager $250*5 but since I deposited $275 and wanted to follow their terms completely, I wagered my $275*5.

When I contacted Live Support, they told me the bonus would be credited automatically within a half an hour. So I did a little surfing, came back to the casino and the bonus had been credited. I went back to playing 4-line Jacks or Better with 50 cent coins ($10 turns) and continued to wager until my comp points were at 556. So, from when the bonus was credited, I wagered a total of 4170, which was a little more than their required 4125. I proceeded to cashout and then talked to Live Support again about the cashout process, which they told me could take 10 days and I had to file out an "Account Verification" form. I filled out the form and sent them a scanned copy of the form and a scanned copy of my drivers license.

The next day is when I got the email from them that my account had been flagged and they were returning my deposit (minus $15) to me.

So tell me, where did I abuse the bonus? I never played any restricted games? I didn't try to cashout before wagering was done? I didn't try to cashout less than the bonus (which is in their terms as something you can't do)? I followed the rules they set completely.

2)Why does the amount of time I played at the casino have anything to do with me being labeled bonus abuser?

In all actuality, if I was a bonus abuser, I would have played minimal coins on VP and it would have taken me hours, if not days. A bonus abuser doesn't play $10 turns of video poker!

3)Why should I wager more knowing their history of slow pay to not at all paying customers?

My play at Grand Banks was to complete a full cycle from deposit, to playing, to finally cashing out and then report back to my many friends who want to try Grand Banks but want to see good trip reports first.

So, how do I know I'd ever get paid even if I kept on wagering a bunch more money? Why take the risk of having a big win withheld from me when I don't even know if they'll pay out a small win?

4)Why was my winnings taken from me?

Now this one seems obvious until I explain. I never once dipped below the bonus money at any point of playing. Therefore, I risked my own money the whole time playing at the casino. I wouldn't be happy if they decided to take the bonus away from me and I'd still fight for it, but there should be no reason at all they should take my winnings. My winnings weren't much, I think it was a little over $100, but it's still the principle of the thing.

----------------------------------------------------------------

I gave this casino a shot because of your conversation with the manager that said they would follow their terms. I followed their terms and now they're not following them, the exact same problem you've had with them in the past. I just don't see how anything has changed...

 

[ScurvyDog]

Hi all,

Breezing through here for the moment - and before everyone gets all riled up grabbing the torches and pitchforks - please remember one thing:

When you sign up at a casino, you agree to accept their terms and conditions:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

You agreed to this - if you didn't like the wording of this, you should have gone elsewhere.

That's a pretty slippery slope you're on.

Nearly every T&C of nearly every online casino contains a clause along the lines that management reserves the right to do any damn thing they please in regards to bonus money and promotions given out. (I'm obviously paraphrasing but you get my drift.)

Despite that well-nigh everpresent clause, legitimate operators honor any and all bonuses and winnings as long as the player fulfills the stated terms, even when it's painfully obvious that the player is playing only for the bonus and will never return. They realize it's the price of doing business and of offering promotions, the price of being a legitimate operator in the online casino world.

Shady operators do exactly the opposite, invoking that right to seize winnings and funds and assess adminstrative fees, even if it means they have to manufacture definitions on the fly. (Nothing in those T&Cs you quote spell out specifically how they define bonus abuse; the only definition was provided much later, after the player had won money and requested a withdrawal).

Hard to see the actions of the casino in this case as anything other than shady, even if the T&Cs permit their behavior. Somehow I doubt they would have refunded his original deposit minus an adminstrative fee if he'd bet all of his funds on one hand of blackjack and lost, which is also another tell-tell sign of "bonus abuse". Searching for a reason, after the fact, to invoke the bonus abuse clause only when a player wins is, well, pretty damn shady, any way you slice it.

 

[thelawnet]

Hi all,

Breezing through here for the moment - and before everyone gets all riled up grabbing the torches and pitchforks - please remember one thing:

When you sign up at a casino, you agree to accept their terms and conditions:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

You agreed to this - if you didn't like the wording of this, you should have gone elsewhere.

that's of course true, the casino can have whatever terms of use it likes, including 'we will take your money and you won't get it back'. That doesn't mean that casino is fair or is not a rogue, just that it has that condition.

But considering that the security department is completely unaccountable, and non-transparent and the decision is evidently only applied to winners - losers don't get their money back - then it's an absolutely unacceptable term.

Considering this casino was only just taken off the rogue list, it would seem that they should go straight back on it, as getting paid shouldn't be an unpredictable process where you abide by the conditions but the casino then decides for some unaccountable reason that they are going to take your winnings and your deposit as well.

Unless you think this is a reasonable way for a casino to behave?

 

[kavaman]

So what.

Yep. 50% of casinos online has something similar to.

"Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee."

This rule is set up so that the casino can basically do whatever they want with players money. We have been here a thousand times.
What are "bonus hunter" characteristics?

The playtrough requirements are put in the terms of a casino , so that the player has to follow them in order to get paid. Not this bullshit rule.
If we go along this line, why put the playtrough requirements at all, just put up this bullshit rule, and take everyones money, win or lose.

Hope you guys agree with me on this one, jetset , others?


-kavaman

 

[Tdoggy]

I agree

This guy is 100% right He signed up at Grand Banks and made a deposit and received a bonus and followed their T and C!!!! And now he's not getting paid???? Another case of a casino not paying a winner because they have WAY TO MUCH POWER!!!!! I'm sorry this has happened to you but God it makes me feel good when I read crap like this knowing I have given up wasting my time at online casions like this!!! Online casinos like this who lie and lie and lie and do what ever they can not to pay winners make me sick!!!! Good luck and getting paid and it does sound like the Casinomeister is on their side

 

[Aindreas_Daoc]

Hi all,

Breezing through here for the moment - and before everyone gets all riled up grabbing the torches and pitchforks - please remember one thing:

When you sign up at a casino, you agree to accept their terms and conditions:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

You agreed to this - if you didn't like the wording of this, you should have gone elsewhere.

Hmm...this doesn't seem right to me.

First of all, this would mean that the contract has 2 meanings:

1) To cash out the bonus, you have to wager x times.
2) To cash out the bonus, you have to wager an unspecified amount more than x times.

Clearly there is no reason to state that the requirements is x times, if infact you can't cash out the bonus if the only meet x times. Instead they should be honest and say upfront what the wagering it is they want.

Secondly, just having an "escape clause" doesn't make it ethical business practice. I could open a casino and have in small print something to the effect of "We reserve the right to withold any deposit and winnings if we suspect anything at all". And if I proceed to do so on my whim, I still can claim that everyone agreed to the TC before signing up. That doesn't mean that this isn't rogue behavior.

 

[paul02085]

IMO, any casino that pulls this garbage deserves to be rogued. To begin with these outfits stall paying out winnings as long as possible. Now they keep any winnings from a bonus if they dont feel like paying them regardless of the fact players meet terms and conditions.

Definitely ROGUE material.

 

[jetset]

I have to say that Scurvy Dog has in my opinion hit this nail exactly on the head, and I can only echo his sentiments.

Looking at this in a positive light, this thread has highlighted the fact that Black Widow, Grand Banks and Sterlinghouse are casinos that fall under Scurvy's "shady" description by invoking this omnibus clause, and that will hopefully warn many players that they are not safe venues.

As Bryan observes, if players don't like these T&Cs (and the fact that the management is obviously happy to apply them when it suits their purposes) then they should take their business elsewhere.

 

[caruso]

When you sign up at a casino, you agree to accept their terms and conditions:
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Players who endeavor only to meet minimum playthrough requirements of a given bonus, exhibiting 'bonus hunter' characteristics, will have their accounts automatically flagged and audited. Should the security department determine that a new player account was set-up solely to exploit this bonus, the player may forfeit their bonus money, any winnings gained under this promotion and their deposit returned minus a $15 administration fee.

You agreed to this - if you didn't like the wording of this, you should have gone elsewhere.

No, no, no, no Bryan. Players who follow the stated T & C are PAID FIRST. That is the rule. If GB are unhappy with their own T & C, they change them into a form they ARE happy with.

1) Play 80% over the stated requirement.
2) Play some sucker slots
3) Reverse at least twice and play some more before definitively cashing out

...or whatever alterations would lead to "non-BH characteristic" play. However, since there is nothing to define that BS "BH-characteristic" play statement, the casino PAYS FIRST and BARS SECOND. The casino does NOT hold to the player to undefined rules for the purpose of robbery.

We've been here time again, and have never once found for the rogue casino. I've been out the loop, and have no idea why GB are suddenly on probabtion. This is the fella who offered you massive affiliate potential if you signed them up, as I recall from that meeting you had two years ago? Remember that comment about his biggest affiliates coining it to the tune of 100K, and the value of negative press? This scumbag is on probation? Heck, he's even the only remaining casino with the "skull & crossbones" warning flag at CasinoCity!

I seem to have missed much.

I'll leave the rest to Jetset:

"These are no grounds for disqualification - the player met all the T&Cs set by the casino at the time of his wagering, and he/she should therefore be paid. If the casino subsequently decides that his/her playing pattern suggests that of a bonus abuser then it has the right of admission to exercise, or the right to exclude the player from any further promotions."

Correct. Pay first, bar second. Not rob first. It doesn't work that way in today's industry. Let's not be setting any unfortunate precedents.