Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[ChopleyIOM]

Bloody hell, about time that some form of regulatory agency stepped in and did take responsibility, beggars belief that in these times of regulations etc that the only people involved in exposing it are completely independent entities with absolutely no leverage whatsoever (no disrespect intended).

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

... contacting the UKGC to discuss the licensing of Realistic Games

I have a full response from the UKGC that I have not published here, pending their okay. Send me an e-mail and I'll forward it to you.

 

[Seventh777]

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

Agreed 100%, if it wasn't for Katie's well presented OP I wouldn't have even bothered replying, let alone putting her onto Eliot, it's been a fair few weeks now and ample time for some form of regulatory agency to step in and take control, maybe now Bryan has the time he can set the wheels in motion .

 

[ThePOGG]

Can anyone provide a comprehensive list of Realistic games? I found this list of slots games - hxxp://www.igamingsuppliers.com/vendor/realistic-games-ltd/ - that covers slots games, most of which i was aware of already. Specifically what i'm looking for is table games.

I've now emailed Betfred, Bet365, Boyle, NordicBet and Stan James. I'll follow up with Sporting Bet tomorrow as i don't currently work with them.

 

[thelawnet]

My analysis is:

Item 1

Finsoft use code from other suppliers, and alter it. For instance the Orbis/Electracade game Aladdin's Treasure is found at Ladbrokes, and uses the files
AladdinGame.swf and AladdinLogo.swf

The XML message sent at Ladbrokes is:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!DOCTYPE GameRequest SYSTEM "http://www.orbisuk.com/igf/dtd/GameRequest.dtd"><GameRequest><Header><GameDetails class="Aladdin" name="FreeAladdin" ver="1" channel="I" free_play="Yes" /><Customer cookie="" is_guest="Yes" balance="498.00" /></Header><Play stake="2.00"><Aladdin action="Low" action_index="0"><AladdinState game_state="18" game_status="B" current_winnings="0.00" current_bank="0.0" current_play="0" /></Aladdin></Play></GameRequest>

At Finsoft sites, the game has been recoded, using the following packages

/Games/AladdinsTreasure/AladdinsTreasureLogo.swf
/Games/AladdinsTreasure/AladdinsTreasureUI_Eng.swf
/Models/HighLow/HighLowProtocol.swf
/Models/HighLow/HighLowModel.swf

the XML request was:

<funplayrequests signature="0b0abcb616faaed8c845ad79773562fa942256070a2684be972d7c355332a0ae" site="BetFred" mode="FUN" game="ALADDINSTREASURE"><funplayrequest id="0" excludenumbers="6" allowduplicates="true" count="1" rangehigh="20" rangelow="1" method="generaterandomnumbers" /></funplayrequests>


Namespaces are under _Packages.IMP (imported?) at Finsoft, but under Packages.com.orbis at Ladbrokes.

Accordingly Finsoft have total responsibility for the games cheating in free play mode.

Item 2

The Realistic Games platform, known as ReGal can be found here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

or here
Outdated URL (Invalid)

They offer American and European Roulette, plus a few slots.

The offending hi-lo games are not offered at these ReGal sites.

Item 3

Finsoft alter the games from third-party providers, so irrespective of Realistic Games, bear the ultimate responsibility for the two or more hi-lo games that cheat in real play mode.

 

[just play]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

 

[Nifty29]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

When you consider the number of games and providers that exist, the actual number of proven cheating games is extremely low.

The OP did their own research, compiled a reasonable amount of data, had an expert review it, and presented it here to take it further. The reason they did this, is because their results led them to believe they were not playing a 100% RTP game as advertised. It was pretty much the same thing when English Harbour got caught cheating with their video poker double up.

The case here shows that particular games from a particular provider are gaffed/cheating/rogue etc.

What the case does NOT show, nor imply, is that any other games from any other providers are cheating. Now, I'm sure that others, like yourself, that have always questioned the fairness/randomness of just about every online casino software ever invented, will use this as a springboard to wave the "It's rigged I tells ya!!" flag referencing this issue every time someone tries to explain that the games ARE fair.

I think I can speak for most people here when I say that, when someone presents a case involving another game/provider e.g. RTG, MGS etc like the OP has in this thread, and the data and conclusions are verified by other experts, we will be all ears and eager to point the finger at the parties involved.

To date, the only "data" presented regarding RTG, MGS, Rival etc is "I lost" or "I don't get as many bonus rounds as I used to" etc etc....based on absolutely NO record keeping or any historical data whatsoever....which is why these threads posts receive the scorn they deserve.

Sorry for the derail, but I knew it was only a matter of time before someone put 2 and 2 together and got 69.

IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

 

[Seventh777]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

As far as slots go hun it's nigh on impossible, no matter what variance a slot is it's theoretical RTP is based on the reel strips and RNG and basically every possible combination that is possible, let's say for arguments sake there are 20 million different possible combinations, of these 15 million are dead spins (no return whatsoever), however unlikely a spell of 15 million dead spins is, it is still within the RTP of that particular slot, you can of course play this slot to the tune of 20 million spins and still avoid hitting every possible combination.

However, gambling features that offer a 50-50 chance of winning per attempt are a lot easier to assess, and should reflect these odds after a certain amount of tries.

 

[just play]

When you consider the number of games and providers that exist, the actual number of proven cheating games is extremely low.

The OP did their own research, compiled a reasonable amount of data, had an expert review it, and presented it here to take it further. The reason they did this, is because their results led them to believe they were not playing a 100% RTP game as advertised. It was pretty much the same thing when English Harbour got caught cheating with their video poker double up.

The case here shows that particular games from a particular provider are gaffed/cheating/rogue etc.

What the case does NOT show, nor imply, is that any other games from any other providers are cheating. Now, I'm sure that others, like yourself, that have always questioned the fairness/randomness of just about every online casino software ever invented, will use this as a springboard to wave the "It's rigged I tells ya!!" flag referencing this issue every time someone tries to explain that the games ARE fair.


I think I can speak for most people here when I say that, when someone presents a case involving another game/provider e.g. RTG, MGS etc like the OP has in this thread, and the data and conclusions are verified by other experts, we will be all ears and eager to point the finger at the parties involved.

To date, the only "data" presented regarding RTG, MGS, Rival etc is "I lost" or "I don't get as many bonus rounds as I used to" etc etc....based on absolutely NO record keeping or any historical data whatsoever....which is why these threads posts receive the scorn they deserve.

Sorry for the derail, but I knew it was only a matter of time before someone put 2 and 2 together and got 69.


IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

To the first bolded part...wth are you talking about? Me? I never scream rigged, I scream I can't win...HUGE difference. Don't add me into some "club" that claims rigged just because of your dislike for me, very childish, but not unexpected.

Second bolded part...It was an honest question, you can't see that? If this game is rigged why can't others be rigged? Pretty simple question I would think, no?

 

[just play]

Indeed.

I can honestly say that it's dreadful episodes such as this that really make me question the sanity of gambling online at all.

It's safe to assume that for every 'gaffed game' that gets called out as has happened here, several more escape detection, and I absolutely do not like the thought of me getting hammered by one of them.

The lack of any kind of meaningful response from the parties involved here not only harms them, it harms the entire online gambling industry.

To the man on the street, this kind of thing must absolutely stink to high heaven. It's no wonder that online gambling has such a trust problem IMO.

Nifty, no response to this?

Is it just me you like to get on?

 

[Seventh777]

To the first bolded part...wth are you talking about? Me? I never scream rigged, I scream I can't win...HUGE difference. Don't add me into some "club" that claims rigged just because of your dislike for me, very childish, but not unexpected.

Second bolded part...It was an honest question, you can't see that? If this game is rigged why can't others be rigged? Pretty simple question I would think, no?

I would like to hasten to add that I thanked nifty for his reply regarding the overall content and not his little dig at you , I would never find fault with a woman that looks like Julia Roberts and has naked pictures to enforce this fact, hell no .

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I would never find fault with a woman that looks like Julia Roberts and has naked pictures to enforce this fact, hell no .

Woah? What now?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Nifty, no response to this?

Is it just me you like to get on?

I think everyone at CM has to take a Niftying once in a while, I've had a few myself, one just gets used to it

 

[just play]

I think everyone at CM has to take a Niftying once in a while, I've had a few myself, one just gets used to it

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

 

[Seventh777]

And I don't get it just once in a while.

Glad to see someone getting it regularly .

 

[thelawnet]

IMO, before ANY casino puts ANY games on their platform from a provider other than their main licensor, they should be tested IN HOUSE. If BF had done this, we wouldn't be having this discussion and they wouldn't be in a world of trouble.

No casino tests anything inhouse. They rely on their providers to test stuff.

 

[max1mike]

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

put him on ignore. it works great.

 

[just play]

I've been following this thread from page 1. I'm not as knowledgable as anyone in this thread concerning online gaming.

I HAVE to ask...if this specific game can be rigged and proven to be rigged (as long time members always say to people they have to prove it) who's to say other games aren't rigged? Why should we believe as players that all the other games are not rigged?

There are so many treads with long time members saying "no their not rigged", but how do they really know?

We now have proof of a game that is.

Just to get back on track.

This is an honest question.

 

[Nifty29]

Chopley, no one should have to take a "Niftying" once in a while, it's against forum rules. And I don't get it just once in a while.


I said essentially the same thing you said, but get ragged on, you know why? Because Nifty doesn't like me, very immature.

I hate to drag things up...and I'm not going to do it again...but I remember at the end of 2011 you said some VERY nasty things about me, my family, my body, and my wife right here in public... So, you could say I have no respect for you as a person.

What is really childish is "but you said this to me but not to him!!". Geez...really?

However, it is immaterial. I am arguing a point that is logical and sensible. If you don't think you belong to the "It's rigged" population, I suggest you go and read your posting history. If you have changed your views, then I apologize.

I didn't respond to chopley because I didn't see that remark, and I know he isn't unreasonable and understands that losing doesn't mean games are rigged, so yes, I probably would have responded differently.

I'll do what I should have done a while ago...put you on ignore. It's best for everyone IMO.

Sorry for the derail, but I felt I had to address this issue. Carry on.

 

[Nifty29]

No casino tests anything inhouse. They rely on their providers to test stuff.

Well, given the explosion in multi-provider platforms, it needs to start happening. After all, it appears that the providers themselves cannot be trusted to do it properly themselves. In the past it has been a minor consideration, with most casinos going with one provider (usually a large one). Now it is a different story, with some casinos only taking a few games from smaller providers.

And BTW..,..I didn't say they DID test them, I said they SHOULD...IMO, as I said.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Well, given the explosion in multi-provider platforms, it needs to start happening. After all, it appears that the providers themselves cannot be trusted to do it properly themselves.

I realise I'm repeating myself here but this really is the crux of the problem.

Casinos such as Betfred just take in a big pile of games from several software providers, and they have no particular interest in and/or knowledge of any of them, beyond the fact that they want to make money out of them.

Casinos should be, no in fact, casinos HAVE TO BE, invested and interested in the software they're running, otherwise there's nothing standing between us, the players, and cheating software.

And we all know how this one is going to pan out, Betfred will apologise profusely, they'll cut Realistic Games/Finsoft loose, and then they'll carry on just as they were before, they'll still be accredited, and with no more accountability for the games they're promoting with their brand name than they were before this whole affair kicked off.

EDIT - At the very least Betfred should be dropped down to some sort of 'status pending' group, I really can't understand how they're still accredited and a 'Casinomeister's Pick' when they've been caught bang to rights running cheating software.

 

[just play]

I hate to drag things up...and I'm not going to do it again...but I remember at the end of 2011 you said some VERY nasty things about me, my family, my body, and my wife right here in public... So, you could say I have no respect for you as a person.

What is really childish is "but you said this to me but not to him!!". Geez...really?

However, it is immaterial. I am arguing a point that is logical and sensible. If you don't think you belong to the "It's rigged" population, I suggest you go and read your posting history. If you have changed your views, then I apologize.

I didn't respond to chopley because I didn't see that remark, and I know he isn't unreasonable and understands that losing doesn't mean games are rigged, so yes, I probably would have responded differently.

I'll do what I should have done a while ago...put you on ignore. It's best for everyone IMO.

Sorry for the derail, but I felt I had to address this issue. Carry on.

And I was the only one is this scenerio saying nasty things?

Don't act like you know what I think about things, I spend money on online gambling, so don't lump me into your "rigged population".

You didn't respond to Chopley because you didn't want to respond to that particular statement.

Address what issue? You following me around the forum, doing what you can to "rattle" me?

Ignore is a good idea.

 

[Seventh777]

I realise I'm repeating myself here but this really is the crux of the problem.

Casinos such as Betfred just take in a big pile of games from several software providers, and they have no particular interest in and/or knowledge of any of them, beyond the fact that they want to make money out of them.

Casinos should be, no in fact, casinos HAVE TO BE, invested and interested in the software they're running, otherwise there's nothing standing between us, the players, and cheating software.

And we all know how this one is going to pan out, Betfred will apologise profusely, they'll cut Realistic Games/Finsoft loose, and then they'll carry on just as they were before, they'll still be accredited, and with no more accountability for the games they're promoting with their brand name than they were before this whole affair kicked off.

EDIT - At the very least Betfred should be dropped down to some sort of 'status pending' group, I really can't understand how they're still accredited and a 'Casinomeister's Pick' when they've been caught bang to rights running cheating software.

Which brings about the question - What exactly do regulating based agencies regulate when doing the monthly / bi-monthly / quarterly audits etc?.

 

[Nifty29]

Which brings about the question - What exactly do regulating based agencies regulate when doing the monthly / bi-monthly / quarterly audits etc?.

They audit the figures that the casino provides...so it is really just a numbers check

Audits are not run on the actual games/software by third parties AFAIK i.e. they don't visit to inspect etc.

 

[Seventh777]

They audit the figures that the casino provides...so it is really just a numbers check

Audits are not run on the actual games/software by third parties AFAIK i.e. they don't visit to inspect etc.

Ah, I thought it was a more thorough process.

 

[Nifty29]

Ah, I thought it was a more thorough process.

So did I originally.

I was disappointed when I learned otherwise,....just like you.

 

[Balthazar]

They audit the figures that the casino provides...so it is really just a numbers check

Audits are not run on the actual games/software by third parties AFAIK i.e. they don't visit to inspect etc.

Honestly, I never thought that they were serious organizations. Some of them are rogue, and I've serious doubts about some of the "good ones". One of the biggest org is the Kahnawake gaming commission. Kahnawake is a small town here in Quebec, Canada where people go to get drugs, illegal guns, tax free cigarettes and alcohol or to play poker illegally. The police doesn't even go there. In other words, it's the Wild West:




I'm not saying the commissions are ran by criminals, but from what I know it doesn't look very good. Let's just say that if I was running a legit org with legit people, it wouldn't be in Kahnawake or some of the other suspicious places where these commissions are situated.

 

[dionysus]

Kahnawake is a small town here in Quebec, Canada where people go to get drugs, illegal guns, tax free cigarettes and alcohol or to play poker illegally. The police doesn't even go there. In other words, it's the Wild West:

lol, I live on the border, bout the only way I can afford to smoke lol

 

[zanzibar]

I'm pleased that others have been able to independently verify my results and have come to the same conclusions about these games.

Thelawnet, would you mind also examining the requests for the following games in free play mode for an anomaly which we discovered when looking at HiLo Gambler:

Trail Blazer
Aladdin's Treasure
Hi Lo Shuffle

I believe they all show the behaviour of excluding the player's current number from the results of the next spin in free play mode only. This can be seen as an excludenumbers parameter in the request.

For a hi-lo game, landing on the same number is bad for the player as it will always cause them to lose. This causes the player's RTP to be much higher in free play than real play. In fact, it wouldn't be possible for the player to lose on a bet of 1 which would result in a > 100% RTP for this bet. I don't believe this happens in real money play.

For now I would prefer it if Betfred focussed their investigation on Reel Deal and Hi Lo Gambler as these are the deceptive and rigged games I played and lost money on. While they have Finsoft on the line they might as well clean up all their games and it does show that the free play and real play games can be configured differently with higher RTPs in free play.

This is the exact same issue that was raised about a game offered by Stan James called Triple Chance Hi Lo early last year. It is developed by a company known as Dynamite Idea which is part of the Open Bet package. So they have prior form for this.

Stan James removed the game when told about it as you can read here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

But interestingly when I searched for that thread as I could not remember the game name and thought it may have been one of the 3 you mentioned, I found this old one which suggested the game was "bugged" like that for over 3 years!

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(Google cache as the forum was down when I checked)

So I searched for it at NordicBet and found it here:
Outdated URL (Invalid)

And sure enough the game is still rigged in fun mode as far as I can tell. You can never get a "tie" meaning you can just pick higher than 1 or lower than 13 every single time, or collect your bet if they are not available, and you can never lose. For example in this case the 3 visible numbers on the game screen were 9, 3, and 11:

<funplayrequests signature="e19de98168da8fca659a8c5d3fd744a102b1d5e16aa528d02c9e636f25c7970f" site="NordicBet" mode="FUN" game="TRIPLECHANCEHILO"><funplayrequest id="0" [B]excludenumbers="9,3,11"[/B] allowduplicates="true" count="3" rangehigh="13" rangelow="1" method="generaterandomnumbers" /></funplayrequests>

The point is that this issue is known about and has been raised previously and the publisher has done absolutely nothing to fix it. Obviously fixing the game and re-releasing would be preferable but failing that at the very least I would have expected them to contact every one of their licensees and had the game removed in the meantime. They don't appear to have even bothered doing that as demonstrated by NordicBet still running the rigged version in free play.

 

[zanzibar]

I've played a little more and I am going to go even further than what I said in that last post.

The fact that the game excludes 3 numbers from the results skews the results massively, even more than a simple "no ties" rule. For example lets say you are looking at a board with 9, 3, and 11. And you decide to pick lower than 11 - now not only can't you spin an 11, but you can't spin a 9 or a 3 either. Try it for yourself - you will never see ANY of the previous 3 numbers that were on the board after a spin.

I can't fathom a possible reason for including such a feature into a game other than to distort results.

 

[Seventh777]

Honestly, I never thought that they were serious organizations. Some of them are rogue, and I've serious doubts about some of the "good ones". One of the biggest org is the Kahnawake gaming commission. Kahnawake is a small town here in Quebec, Canada where people go to get drugs, illegal guns, tax free cigarettes and alcohol or to play poker illegally. The police doesn't even go there. In other words, it's the Wild West:

View attachment 37203
View attachment 37204

I'm not saying the commissions are ran by criminals, but from what I know it doesn't look very good. Let's just say that if I was running a legit org with legit people, it wouldn't be in Kahnawake or some of the other suspicious places where these commissions are situated.

As BetFred was / is an established brand in the world of gambling it passes automatically into, and falls under the protocols needed to join the GRA, i've always been led to believe the GRA to be the best out there because of the more stringent guidelines needed to become a member .

 

[Balthazar]

As BetFred was / is an established brand in the world of gambling it passes automatically into, and falls under the protocols needed to join the GRA, i've always been led to believe the GRA to be the best out there because of the more stringent guidelines needed to become a member .

I was talking about internet gaming commissions in general (especially those located on remote islands or indian reservations). It wasn't directly related to Betfred or the GRA.

 

[threescatters]

Finsoft alter the games from third-party providers, so irrespective of Realistic Games, bear the ultimate responsibility for the two or more hi-lo games that cheat in real play mode.

I disagree, according to gibraltar regulations (as linked and specified earlier in this thread), the ultimate responsibility for games provided on a website lies with the licencee. I.E. In betfreds case, gibraltar specifies the ultimate responsibility for game fairness lies with betfred themselves.

 

[P.V.]

I've skimmed over the tread but the simple solution is identifying who's testing the games on each site and how often. Or if they're even being tested!

There was a time when TST and other logo's were displayed showing by whom the games were tested, when. What happened? IMO it's gotten very slack and operators are adding multiple games through different providers and not providing testing details/results as they should. And it should be done on a site by site basis.

So if in fact this thread is true, rigged games, this is the outcome of not demanding solid proof of by whom and when the games were tested for fair play.

If there was a link to the lab that tested the games, they would be the first point of contact and the ones on the hook. JMO..

 

[ThePOGG]

Ok so i've already heard back from Nordic Bet's CM, who was made aware of this issue yesterday and is treating the issue as a matter of urgency. I'll also be contacting BetVictor after this post.

The stance i'm taking is that of Blacklisting Realistic - their game, their code, their rig.

This does open some worrying avenues however. From what thelawnet's been posting i get the impression that an intermediary company has been changing how the games operate? At least in respect to the free play versions? I'm not a coder so excuse my slow-wittedness here, but that seems to be the implication?

As far as Betfred are concerned, this has become a real mess. The GRA passing the buck to the operator for ensuring game fairness is a crock in my opinion - if the regulator is not there to ensure customers receive a fair game then what exactly are they doing? Having seen the response that EJ received from the UKGC that opinion extend to them as well. I'll leave Eliot to publish that when he's ready but if that's their final statement on the issue i will be publishing a write up stating that the UKGC seal is essentially meaningless on any online gaming site as they take no responsibility for operations based outside of the UK (which is essentially all online gambling operations and in which case they shouldn't be allowing their seal to be used by such groups).

This game of pass the shit parcel has to stop somewhere. While i am of the mind that if a casino is going to stake their reputation on the games of a small software provider they unquestionably should have tested the games themselves before uploading them, i don't know of any casino that does buy in games that does this kind of testing. If i was in charge of any of the brands that are now involved i'd want to seriously rethink that strategy - is the good reputation of a big company really worth risking on small and untested software providers - and i'd want to bring in independent auditing for all external software providers. In this instance i think it's understandable if the UKGC seal fooled Betfred into thinking that these games must be adequately tested, i know it would have fooled me. Ultimately however, whether at Realistic or Finsoft, someone specifically programmed this game to behave in a non-random fashion. They unquestionably knew that they had shifted the odds away from the true odds of the game and that in itself is enough to Blacklist the involved parties.

 

[The Dude]

...
EDIT - At the very least Betfred should be dropped down to some sort of 'status pending' group, I really can't understand how they're still accredited and a 'Casinomeister's Pick' when they've been caught bang to rights running cheating software.

I'm still reading the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I was out all of last week - today's my first work day.

 

[ThePOGG]

I'm still reading the thread. Like I mentioned earlier, I was out all of last week - today's my first work day.

I can certainly associate with that - coming to this thread yesterday it was a good hours work just to go through it before figuring out what to say.

 

[thelawnet]

Ok so i've already heard back from Nordic Bet's CM, who was made aware of this issue yesterday and is treating the issue as a matter of urgency. I'll also be contacting BetVictor after this post.

The stance i'm taking is that of Blacklisting Realistic - their game, their code, their rig.

This does open some worrying avenues however. From what thelawnet's been posting i get the impression that an intermediary company has been changing how the games operate? At least in respect to the free play versions? I'm not a coder so excuse my slow-wittedness here, but that seems to be the implication?

Yes that is correct.

There is no proof that Realistic have done anything wrong, but there is proof that Finsoft have, since Finsoft have demonstrably taken fair games from suppliers (specifically Openbet) and rigged them in free-play mode, and it's possible that they also rigged the cheating games in real-play mode that we see in the OP here.

From what I have seen the offending games, both the cheating free-play and cheating real-play, are found ONLY on casinos using Finsoft.

Whether Finsoft or Realistic coded up the adaptive cheating here we cannot know without asking them....

 

[dionysus]

Yes that is correct.

There is no proof that Realistic have done anything wrong, but there is proof that Finsoft have, since Finsoft have demonstrably taken fair games from suppliers (specifically Openbet) and rigged them in free-play mode, and it's possible that they also rigged the cheating games in real-play mode that we see in the OP here.

From what I have seen the offending games, both the cheating free-play and cheating real-play, are found ONLY on casinos using Finsoft.

Whether Finsoft or Realistic coded up the adaptive cheating here we cannot know without asking them....

I somehow don't foresee 'yup, we opted to screw players, mwa hahahahaha'

 

[The Dude]

For the moment, I have removed Betfred, Bet365, and NordicBet from the Accredited Casino section until this has been formally and properly addressed. At a minimum, these games need to be removed and all players affected need to be reimbursed their losses. It's difficult to believe that these games have not been tested previously - and it just throws doubt in players' minds on who we can really trust. The software provider? The licensing jurisdiction? Cheating games are totally unacceptable and I am extremely disappointed in the sloppiness of this whole affair. The GRA should have taken action immediately as soon as Dr. Jacobson contacted them - same goes for the UKGC. But it seems at this point it's only grass roots effort taking place.

Like many others, I would like to know who audited Realistic Games before they were included in the games portfolio at Betfred, Bet365, NordicBet and others. It's an absolute shame that these games were allowed to slip though and thus tarnish the reputation of these casinos.

 

[dionysus]

I think I'm most surprised that 2 reputable, accredited, popular casinos have not stepped up and made a statement. Granted, casinos like any business have to protect their asses...er..interests, and confer with their legal teams, but I'd thought at least the 2 (coughyourknowwhoyouarecough) would at the minimum have posted saying they're looking into this

 

[The Dude]

Admin note: thread name change

Renamed thread from "Betfred - Rigged HiLo Games" to "Realistic Games - Rigged Rogue Software" since this is a software issue and not solely about Betfred.

 

[dionysus]

(and btw Bryan, like the new avi )

 

[NordicBet]

Hi everyone,

First I would like to thank those that brought the matter to our attention. We obviously take this case very seriously.

As a first step we have removed any games from the mentioned provider.

We will investigate the issue internally and take further action according to the outcome of the investigation.

Robin

 

[dionysus]

one day, one dollar too late? But a positive step regardless

 

[thelawnet]

Renamed thread from "Betfred - Rigged HiLo Games" to "Realistic Games - Rigged Rogue Software" since this is a software issue and not solely about Betfred.

Finsoft (Gtech G2/Spielo G2) have been proven direct responsibility for cheating. Realistic Games have not.

 

[ThePOGG]

Yes that is correct.

There is no proof that Realistic have done anything wrong, but there is proof that Finsoft have, since Finsoft have demonstrably taken fair games from suppliers (specifically Openbet) and rigged them in free-play mode, and it's possible that they also rigged the cheating games in real-play mode that we see in the OP here.

From what I have seen the offending games, both the cheating free-play and cheating real-play, are found ONLY on casinos using Finsoft.

Whether Finsoft or Realistic coded up the adaptive cheating here we cannot know without asking them....

Ok - that's both more of a headache and clearer. I think it can be assumed at this stage that if Realistic are asked they're certainly not going to own up to coding crooked games. However i don't mean that as an accusation - they may or may not be involved i just don't see any incentive whether they were or not to cop to this one.

What we can say however is that Finsoft are guilty of rigging free play games to produce higher RTPs than the games real play equivalent. As such Finsoft have already crossed the cheating line and it certainly gives any denial on their part of the real play issue a lot less weight. Looking at the Finsoft site - hxxp://www.finsoft.com/portfolio/index.htm - their client list is as follows; Sporting Bet, Sporting Index, Singapore Pools, Paddy Power, Boyle, Bet365, Betfred, Stan James, SportsSpread.com and Chrisholm Bookmakers. Notable by their abscense are Nordic Bet and BetVictor - is it the case that these venues are getting their games directly from Realistic rather than through Finsoft?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Ok - that's both more of a headache and clearer. I think it can be assumed at this stage that if Realistic are asked they're certainly not going to own up to coding crooked games. However i don't mean that as an accusation - they may or may not be involved i just don't see any incentive whether they were or not to cop to this one.

What we can say however is that Finsoft are guilty of rigging free play games to produce higher RTPs than the games real play equivalent. As such Finsoft have already crossed the cheating line and it certainly gives any denial on their part of the real play issue a lot less weight. Looking at the Finsoft site - hxxp://www.finsoft.com/portfolio/index.htm - their client list is as follows; Sporting Bet, Sporting Index, Singapore Pools, Paddy Power, Boyle, Bet365, Betfred, Stan James, SportsSpread.com and Chrisholm Bookmakers. Notable by their abscense are Nordic Bet and BetVictor - is it the case that these venues are getting their games directly from Realistic rather than through Finsoft?

I think not. I believe the client list is merely a marketing strategy of quoting 10 of the highest profile clients they have, hence it is useless in compiling a full list of which operators have taken games from Realistic and/or Finsoft.

 

[thelawnet]

Ok - that's both more of a headache and clearer. I think it can be assumed at this stage that if Realistic are asked they're certainly not going to own up to coding crooked games. However i don't mean that as an accusation - they may or may not be involved i just don't see any incentive whether they were or not to cop to this one.

What we can say however is that Finsoft are guilty of rigging free play games to produce higher RTPs than the games real play equivalent. As such Finsoft have already crossed the cheating line and it certainly gives any denial on their part of the real play issue a lot less weight. Looking at the Finsoft site - hxxp://www.finsoft.com/portfolio/index.htm - their client list is as follows; Sporting Bet, Sporting Index, Singapore Pools, Paddy Power, Boyle, Bet365, Betfred, Stan James, SportsSpread.com and Chrisholm Bookmakers. Notable by their abscense are Nordic Bet and BetVictor - is it the case that these venues are getting their games directly from Realistic rather than through Finsoft?

No that's not the case.

This is the finsoft back-end:

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Both using Finsoft rather than ReGaL.

 

[dionysus]

Notable by their abscense are Nordic Bet and BetVictor - is it the case that these venues are getting their games directly from Realistic rather than through Finsoft?

No that's not the case.

This is the finsoft back-end:

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cf.
Outdated URL (Invalid)

Both using Finsoft rather than ReGaL.

out of curiosity, he mentioned betvictor; was that a client?