sadly, if that were true, every rogue would have gone under, but thousands of players who don't read CM will still play there
Unmarketable on my site
![Wink ;) ;)](/forums/styles/default/casinomeister/smilies/wink.gif)
sadly, if that were true, every rogue would have gone under, but thousands of players who don't read CM will still play there
....based on?
Nothing wrong with having that POV, but it's fairly empty if you have nothing to substantiate it.
Based on the number of "mistakes" made in this case that all conveniently serve to trick players into playing the rigged game. Not only did they choose to use a rigged real money game, they used a misleading help file telling people that the RTP for certain bets was 100%, and they used a differently rigged "play money" game that paid out at a higher rate, which would mislead anyone who wanted to test the game fairness without risking their own funds.
I think it's more likely that this was intentional than not. The only argument I've seen to the contrary is that they would be too stupid to do this intentionally (which is a pretty bad argument IMO).
Can you please explain why you think this is unlikely?
I think they knew what they did, and are as guilty as Spielo G2.
Simple casino operations and the fact that the vast majority of people that work at online casino have only the vaguest understanding of how online games actually work. Most of the casino employees i speak to don't even understand the basics and use things like RNG certification to try and hide their ignorance behind. Very few casinos actually test games in house and even if they did, most of them would test for the wrong things in this instance. In fact - and Chris feel free to smack me if i'm wrong here - i don't think any test their free games at all.
I'd certainly say that ignorance is a weak defence in this instance and this highlights a major issue with the entire industry, but there's a huge difference between intentionally programming a game to cheat and not doing your background checks thoroughly enough.
The one exception to this to my mind is Betfred, but i'm not convinced they actually knew any more than any other casino, just that they got a report back from a partner company justifying it, trusted it and put their stamp on it. It was a stupid thing to do - if you don't understand the issue, hire someone independent who does, don't just spew out whatever the defending party tells you.
Based on the number of "mistakes" made in this case that all conveniently serve to trick players into playing the rigged game. Not only did they choose to use a rigged real money game, they used a misleading help file telling people that the RTP for certain bets was 100%, and they used a differently rigged "play money" game that paid out at a higher rate, which would mislead anyone who wanted to test the game fairness without risking their own funds.
I think it's more likely that this was intentional than not. The only argument I've seen to the contrary is that they would be too stupid to do this intentionally (which is a pretty bad argument IMO).
And do players have any responsibility on that? Of course they don't.
The incompetence of the casinos employees (from top down) are not players responsibility, instead we players have all rights to not comply with their wrong actions.
I understand your point, but i'm not really sure how much more can be achieved.
If you want casinos blacklisted because they don't do thorough internal checks on all games provided, then you'd need to blacklist the entire industry. Next to none of them do this. If you want them blacklisted for not having a strong understanding of their games, once again that's the entire industry. It's the rare individual that i speak to that does have an understanding of game theory. That is an incompetence that pervades the entire industry. As it stands, i'll blacklist them for something that isn't uniform across the industry - making a wilful choice to associate with an organization that's been proven to cheat. All these would have the same ultimate affect on Betfred, it's the ramifications elsewhere that are different.
I didn't brush anything aside, I removed these casinos as soon as it was affirmed that the software was screwed up. I knew that the players were being refunded their losses - I figured it would have been resolved quicker (as my last post indicates), but at the end of the day - what is important IMO is squaring the players away. This is happening.
No one here feels that these casinos deliberately tried to cheat anyone. Every casino uses casino software, and I really don't care how outstanding the software is - there will always be issues via bad programming or simple human error. This situation is more complicated because we have a screwed up game that has slipped by the operators as well as the licensors. I think this has surprised most everyone. In fact, this is unprecedented. A situation like this has never happened before with respectable companies like this..
I hope the source of your discouragement is not because I brought the casinos back on board. It was clear to me that the situation was being properly addressed. Betfred took longer than I expected, (again, please read my previous post) and they haven't been fully brought back on board yet. But this is a very dynamic environment and I take many things into consideration when dealing with these serious matters.
Most importantly - and this is the crux of the matter - people are listening and trying to do the right thing. And the bottom line is that this is what it's all about: raise an issue and get results. It's not a witch hunt or a casino bashing event - this is a problem that is being addressed and resolved.
And this is not about some accredited list or who is promoting whom. I do not use the Accredited list to punish or reward people - people who know me personally or who have been on this site for years are aware of this. The Accredited section has a very long history, those who are wise to it would understand.
The casinos operators are doing the right thing, and we have the ears and eyes of all operators involved and have been in contact with the licensing jurisdictions as well. Why be discouraged? I could understand this if nothing was happening - if we were getting "speak to the hand" responses and the proverbial brick wall. But this is not the case. In fact, these situations should give you a sense of empowerment if nothing else.
Bet365 are no better, they got the help file right but they still have not addressed Eliot's maths stating that the game should have reached a 97.5% RTP over one million plus games, not 96% as Bet365 stated in this thread.
To be fair about this, Bet 365 stated that the RTP of Reel Deal was approaching 96% after one million rounds and my understanding is that the paytable of Reel Deal at Bet 365 would produce a 96% RTP. They haven't release the RTP of Hi Lo Gambler, but Eliot calculated that it should be approximately 97.5%.
It wasn't a testing issue, though. Finsoft deliberately made a card game with two different RTP's and offered it like this to the casinos. Casinos could choose one RTP or the other. Betfred picked the 96% one (or used the default version), but had the wrong help file and ran the 100% RTP version in free mode. Honest mistakes IMO.
Other than that, there's no reason to test anything, the game is working fine and as advertised.
The issue is that Finsoft RIGGED the card game to return 96%.
This is actually extremely serious, because the game appeared by its design to have zero edge, and obviously such a game in theory you can play indefinitely without any expected lost.
It wasn't that they offered two RTPs, it was, as explained by Betfred, that they offered two versions of the game, one honest one, where the advertised payout was changed to reduce the RTP, and one dishonest one, where the chance of winning was less than it should have been, which not only was not disclosed to the player, but has no place in an online casino at all.
Betfred CHOSE, by their own admission, to go for the dishonest game that appeared to be a completely game, but in fact was a rigged one.
The issue is that Finsoft RIGGED the card game to return 96%
I know that, that's what I'm saying. People were talking about the need for casinos to test the games, which is irrelevant to what happened. I give the casinos the benefit of the doubt for using the wrong help file, but they knew what they were doing when they were running the rigged games. That was the point I was trying to make.
I think this thread has reached an impasse at this point. It looks like the casinos won't make any more statement and will stay accredited, Finsoft will keep making games and everything will go back to "normal". Virtually no consequences for everyone involved.
As long as members/people in here & on other sites continue to write about this & similar "accidents" (cheats?) it will never go away!
Its only been a few weeks since it came to light about this. Surely there is more members in here & elsewhere that can investigate or post/write more on this site & other sites?
Every single player has a very powerful weapon in their armoury.
They can stop playing.
Virtually no consequences for everyone involved.
As per the end scene from 'Wargames', I've reached the conclusion that 'the only winning move is not to play'.
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As per the end scene from 'Wargames', I've reached the conclusion that 'the only winning move is not to play'.
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I know that, that's what I'm saying. People were talking about the need for casinos to test the games, which is irrelevant to what happened. I give the casinos the benefit of the doubt for using the wrong help file, but they knew what they were doing when they were running the rigged games. That was the point I was trying to make.
I think this thread has reached an impasse at this point. It looks like the casinos won't make any more statement and will stay accredited, Finsoft will keep making games and everything will go back to "normal". Virtually no consequences for everyone involved.
(3) In accordance with the following provisions of this section, a licence
holder shall furnish to the Gambling Commissioner at such intervals as are
referred to in subsection (5), a certificate that the integrity of any computer
equipment used to facilitate the carrying on of the activities authorised
under the licence has been properly tested by a body approved by the
Minister in consultation with the Gambling Commissioner, the Licensing
Authority (if not the Minister) and after consultation with licence holders.
(4) A certificate furnished to the Gambling Commissioner for the purposes
of subsection (3) shall contain the following information−
(a) the name of the owner of the equipment;
(b) the name of any company or individual who carried out the
testing;
(c) a declaration that software forming any part of a random
number generator is fair and reliable; and
(d) such other information as the Gambling Commissioner may
from time to time in writing specify.
11.1 RNG and Game Randomness
(1) Licence holders should be able to demonstrate the fairness and randomness of all
games to the Gambling Commissioner without any undue delay.
(2) The output obtained through the use of the RNG in games shall be proven to:
(a) Be statistically independent.
(b) Be uniformly distributed over their range.
(c) Pass various recognised statistical tests intended to demonstrate a) and b) above
and the absence of patterns.
(d) Be unpredictable without knowledge of the algorithm, its implementation, and the
current seed value (all of which should be secure).
(e) be random and distributed in accordance with the rules and expected
probabilities of the game.
12.2 RNG testing
(1) Prior to the commercial use of a new RNG in the provision of remote gambling
facilities, a licence holder shall furnish the Commissioner with a certificate from an
ATF confirming that the output of the RNG passes recognised statistical randomness
tests confirming that it meets the randomness requirements in section 11.1(2).
(2) The Commissioner will also consider other forms of certifying the fairness and
randomness of RNGs used, such as source code testing, as long as the licence
holder and ATF can demonstrate that it meets the underlying objective that the
gambling is verifiably fair to the customer.
(3) Where appropriate, the Commissioner will recognise RNGs that are tested and
certified in accordance with the requirements of other jurisdictions that licence and
regulate remote gambling consistently with the Gibraltar regulatory model.
(4) Where appropriate, the Commissioner may also recognise prior ATF certification
undertaken on behalf of a software supplier.
(5) For the certification to remain valid there must be no changes to the RNG. Any
changes to the RNG previously certified, needs to be re certified before it is
reintroduced to the live environment.
12.4 Ongoing monitoring
(1) Further to ATF certification of the RNG and game engine prior to being used in the
provision of remote gambling, periodic reviews of the game engine‟s output should
also be undertaken as part of a licence holder‟s arrangements to ensure the ongoing fairness and integrity of its game engines:
(a) A licence holder may perform the following reviews in house on the condition
that:
(i) the in house monitoring methodology has been previously reviewed
and certified by a qualified third party approved by the Commissioner;
(ii) the licence holder has demonstrated to the Commissioner or
Licensing Authority that its practices and outcomes in product
development, change control and testing are reliable and meet
appropriate standards; or,
(iii) the game engine‟s outcome is certified annually to verify the results of
the licence holder‟s quarterly assessments.
(b) Where a game engine has a theoretical RTP (e.g. slot games) a licence
holder should employ reliable and audited means to perform quarterly RTP
analysis of the game engine‟s output.
(c) Where a game engine does not have a theoretical RTP (e.g. poker), a licence
holder should employ reliable and audited means to perform quarterly
statistical analysis of the game engine‟s output including its distribution to
certify that it is in accordance with the theoretical outcome probabilities of the
game engine.
(d) All such reports are to be made available to the Gambling Commissioner on
request.
2) Licence holders should complete a system-wide regression test at least annually.
3) The financial data log files should be reconciled to movements on the accounts to
ensure accuracy and completeness of data used in final result output-based payout percentage and RNG testing.
12.6 Software development and maintenance
(1) A development methodology for software and applications should be defined,
documented and implemented.
(2) All documentation relating to software and application development should be
available and retained for the duration of its lifecycle.Change control procedures should be implemented in line with the change management policy and should cater for the following:
(a) Approval procedures for changes to software.
(b) A policy addressing emergency change procedures.
(c) Procedures for testing and migration of changes.
(d) Segregation of duties between the developers, quality assurance team, the
migration team and users.
(e) Procedures to ensure that technical and user documentation is updated as a
result of a change.
(f) Procedures to ensure that security control requirements are specified for new
information systems, or enhancements to existing information systems.
(4) The development and test environments ought to be isolated physically and logically
from the live operational systems.
7.2. ‘Play for Free’ Games
(1) Play for free games for no prize are not gambling but should accurately reflect any
„real-money‟ version of the game, and should not be used to encourage those under
18 to use licensed gambling facilities.
(2) In particular, such games should not be designed to mislead the player about the
chances for success by, for example, using mappings that produce different
outcomes than the cash game. Licence holders should be able to demonstrate this
equivalence to the Gambling Commissioner upon request.
13.4 Other joint ventures
(1) Whilst white label and platform partner arrangements are the most common forms
of joint ventures, any contractual arrangement to share the licence holder‟s
licensed facilities with a third party, such as those whereby a software supplier‟s
games are installed and executed or accessed from the licence holder‟s gaming
platform/infrastructure, amounts to a joint venture requiring authorisation by the
Licensing Authority.
(2) All „gambling software‟ suppliers should be approved by the Licensing Authority.
Whilst the breadth of „gambling software‟ is not being defined, the Gambling
Commissioner would regard any customer facing software used by a licence
holder on which customers could be expected to place significant trust when
making gambling decisions, or seeking gambling transaction information, to be
„gambling software‟, for which the supplier should be approved.
(3) Licence holders should contact the Licensing Authority for guidance on an
application for the approval of a joint venture. A description of the proposed
functionality and the supplier(s) involved should be provided at the outset.
Principle 7.b (Generic Code 13.1) – “Licence holders are required to use
equipment, software and services that are compliant with the Commissioner‟s
Technical Standards document and take responsibility for any failures in these
arrangements.”
Virtually no consequences for everyone involved.