Finsoft/Spielo G2 Games Issue

[dunover]

OMG! Seriously...can you be seriously trying to compare Spielo G2's BS to supermakets such as Tesco...My god man how long have you been on earth?

Are you familiar with tesco to any degree cos Tesco is a very bad comparison to use. Honestly when i say that horse meat/pork/ and god knows what else is not even the tip of the iceberg for that multinational. Here's a few examples: Tesco recalls Chinese sweets over melamine fears

The chemical at the centre of the baby milk scandal in China has been found in sweets sold at some Tesco stores.

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Dead Frogs Found In Bagged Spinach From U.K. Grocery Giant Tesco. Outdated URL (Invalid)

Formaldehyde contamination and Melamine contamination On September 24, 2008, the UK supermarket chain Tesco pulled all White Rabbit Creamy Candy from their shelves.

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Dioxin Scandel: The dioxin-laden eggs were used by two firms to make own-brand products for Sainsbury’s, Tesco and Morrisons among others.

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And of course lest we forget to add child labour to the list...Now Tesco are caught up in child labour row over suppliers who pay only 16p an hour.

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OK, so you don't use supermarkets - you've proven my point which was, if you have a reasonable understanding of English, to say that a storefront offering products from many sources will inevitably include a problem product at some time. My view was that how they deal with the situations when they arise is what cements their reputations. Thanks for more examples.

My god man did you even know that Tesco was implicated in feeding/supplying the cutthroat regime of Charles Mugabe and his evil henchmen and removing the rest of the foods from Zimbabwe? Daily Mail: We're eating Zimbabwe's food... as its people starve.

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OK, you bring in Mugabe, an insane racist Marxist kleptocrat who has reduced his people to starvation, Rhodesia once being a massive exporter of foods grown by those nasty white farmers and imperialists whose efforts fed his people and earned much foreign currency to a basket-case economy so desperate for foreign currency that they will force people to grow crops for sale rather than feed themselves. They then tell buyers that they are 'helping' the country and that is how it is spun to us. We know where the cash goes.


I couldn't even begin to make a more comprehensive lists of so many foods Tesco and other multimationals conglomerates have on our shelves that are causing so many sicknesses. It would take me weeks to compile cos there's so much crap.

OK, you've said that already. You are obviously lucky enough to have a local fishmonger, garage, greengrocer, butcher etc. supplying local produce which you frequent instead of spending at supermarkets. Good on you.

This is also what irks me about Spielo G2 cos they too are part of a multinational and i bet if someone were to backtrace their interlocking corporate board structure of the 147 multinationals corporations who control a vast percentage of earths resources, they will find linkages probably to companies such as arms industry, Agriculture, aroespace, automotive and in paticular, banking and private equity firms.

If you understood multinational finance, it'd be hard not to find a link or two. That is almost comedic. Would you believe it eh? Multinationals having links to banks, financiers and manufacturing!

Spielo G2 is only a tiny fraction of Lottomattica. Lottomattica owns rights to thousands of gaming machines across earth. Their parent company is quite large. Here's a general scope: De Agostini, founded in 1901, is a family-owned private group active in 66 countries worldwide and in 4 business areas: Publishing, Media, Games and Services, Finance.

He runs the show:





Marco Drago

Chairman and President, De Agostini S.p.A.





Age 66

Total Calculated Compensation

This person is connected to 7 Board Members in 7 different organizations across 9 different industries.

See Board Relationships

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De Agostini S.p.A. INSIDERS ON Board Members.
What relevance has that? I don't care if the software was provided by John Smith running a business from his bedroom in Tunbridge Wells. My point was, that Betfred responded fairly to the issues - do you think all casinos would have?

Your response was rather hysterical IMO.

 

[P.V.]

Let's be fair..

I'm getting kind of strung out on this thread, followed the entire thing.

My conclusion, opinion is..

I personally think Betfred stepped up to the plate and did the right thing, removed the game and paid the player. If there's others that need reimbursement I'm sure they will pay them back as they have stated.

Until all accredited sites prove testing of all games, only until then I see no reason for them to be off the accredited list.

I have no personal or business connection with this site but let's be fair this could happen to any OC site offering games online.

There's been nothing that's shown me malice on their part other than the game offered by the software provider wasn't fair.

I can understand their lack of response, honestly this could happen to all of your favorite OC's without the correct testing of games.

I'm sure many will disagree but I truly don't think Betfred's the root of this evil. I see it as a programming f-up for the most part. JMO..

I'd reinsert them to the accredited list as long as they stand behind paying all disputes from the games involved, what else can be asked asked at this point?

Again, JMO..

 

[ThePOGG]

I see it as a programming f-up for the most part. JMO..

I don't see Betfred as the route of this either, but neither is this "a programming f-up". There are plenty of ways to make a mistake when programming that causes unexpected results. The recent issue with WinADay Roulette is an example of what seems to be a programming f-up. It's not a f-up however when they add code in to exclude the last result, as was done with the free games - that's an piece of code that's added with the intended consequence of increasing the free game RTP. It's not a f-up when they intentionally alter the distribution of the cards so as to decrease the RTP over that which the player would experience when playing with real cards - again that's something intentional.

"a programming f-up" suggests unintended consequence whereas, in both these issues, the game functioned exactly as the developer intented, it's just that what they intended goes against the basic principals of fair electronic gaming and no reputable online casino should want to have anything to do with that.

 

[P.V.]

I'd be careful with saying anything is intentional whether you're right or wrong.

After 50 pages I've seen no proof of anything being done, again by malice.

 

[ThePOGG]

I'd be careful with saying anything is intentional whether you're right or wrong.

After 50 pages I've seen no proof of anything being done, again by malice.

There really is no way you can take a game that someone else provides, alter it by adding in code specifically intended to exclude the last result, and still claim you did not intend the end result. Nor when you program a game to take into account the bet that the player places and biases the results against them. The bet a player places should never affect the outcome of the round.

 

[P.V.]

I don't see Betfred as the route of this either

And if in fact you're correct then the casino acknowledges the problem, removes the game, bans the software provider and pays the players.

Betfed did this, offered payback, so who are you after?

You should be after more regulation, testing of online games in general!

 

[questa]

And if in fact you're correct then the casino acknowledges the problem, removes the game, bans the software provider and pays the players.

Betfed did this, offered payback, so who are you after?

You should be after more regulation, testing of online games in general!

They've paid one person, as far as I am aware, the OP. I can't see any evidence of anyone else being paid back. They've gone very quiet in fact, when they should be making every effort to refund all the money stolen by the rigged game they had on their site.

 

[ThePOGG]

bans the software provider

They haven't done that! That's the point. Betfred - amongst many others - continue to use this software provider, only having removed the real play affected games. As far as i'm aware they haven't even acknowledged the issue with the free play games.

 

[P.V.]

They've paid one person, as far as I am aware, the OP. I can't see any evidence of anyone else being paid back. They've gone very quiet in fact, when they should be making every effort to refund all the money stolen by the rigged game they had on their site.

Well there is a PAB system.

 

[P.V.]

They haven't done that! That's the point. Betfred - amongst many others - continue to use this software provider, only having removed the real play affected games. As far as i'm aware they haven't even acknowledged the issue with the free play games.

I honestly think you're making this a bigger issue than what it is, JMO.

Until I see more complaints other then the OP, well let's see how big this is.

Cheers, got to hit the hay!

Just back and forth Pogg, nothing personal..

 

[ThePOGG]

I honestly think you're making this a bigger issue than what it is, JMO.

Until I see more complaints other then the OP, well let's see how big this is.

Cheers, got to hit the hay!

Just back and forth Pogg, nothing personal..

I don't agree with you at all on this - to my mind rigged software's about the worst offense a casino can commit - but i don't take it as anything personal

 

[P.V.]

I don't agree with you at all on this - to my mind rigged software's about the worst offense a casino can commit - but i don't take it as anything personal

Show me how Betfed is malice and intentionally rigged and we can chat later. Good night.

 

[ThePOGG]

Show me how Betfed is malice and intentionally rigged and we can chat later. Good night.

I'd have no issue with Betfred if they stopped using a software provider that's rigged games, but instead they've decided to keep the FinSoft platform. The software provider's integrity has been compromised to the point where no player should be asked to trust their games, but Betfred - and again i'll point out that it's not just them and i'm not singling them out here, everyone who continues to use FinSoft as a provider is equally guilty - has chosen to put it's business ties in front of player saftey.

Their checks and testing were inadequte to catching these games first time round and they've made no indication that they're improving these practices and as such the customer is as exposed as ever to a software provider who has already been involved in malpractice. One thing that should have been done right at the outset when they'd confirmed the issue with the games is removal of a provider that manipulated games in a deceptive way. That's the critical step that all of these casinos have faild to make.

 

[Richas]

Until all accredited sites prove testing of all games, only until then I see no reason for them to be off the accredited list.

I have no personal or business connection with this site but let's be fair this could happen to any OC site offering games online.

There's been nothing that's shown me malice on their part other than the game offered by the software provider wasn't fair.

I can understand their lack of response, honestly this could happen to all of your favorite OC's without the correct testing of games.

You may have sensibly skipped my long post on testing. BetFred are licenced by Gibraltar and so are obliged to test the software themselves or with a licenced 3rd party ATF before deploying the software, they are obliged to retest it every three months, they have an annual regression test to do and they have a duty to do a financial audit that reconciles the games advertised RTP with what it is delivering.

This game ran for years. BetFred have signed up to a licence that obliges them to kame these tests, which BTW are far from demanding on such a business and are little more than general good practice for a professional business.

All Gibraltar licenced casinos should be doing these tests and by saying they are licenced there they are telling their customers that they do. Part of the accredited status is that the casino is licenced - that condition does tend to suggest that they also need to comply with the licence terms. BetFred do have some culpability here and I suspect their silence at the moment is because they recognise the seriousness of the situation this case puts them in.

This (being sold dodgey software) should absolutely not happen to any site - they should test what they put up and they are legally obliged to do so.

 

[Jufo]

Well there is a PAB system.

So, you are saying that they should only refund the players who become aware that they were cheated and who submit a PAB. And that there is no need to refund all those (likely thousands of players) who played the game but remain unaware that the game didn't perform as advertised?

 

[jetset]

The problem as i see it is that i don't think Spielo G2 are feeling the strain. I may be wrong but so far only one operator has actually stopped offering their games (and as a note, that wasn't even the operator at the centre of this scandelous whirwind), every other operator who has been confirmed to be using the FinSoft platform has made it quite clear that they'd rather keep a few poor quality games from a platform that's been shown to have intentionally cheated than to save their reputation. I do understand that comparitively i run a small site and also that as an operator you cannot allow affiliates to engage in commercial hostage taking every time you do something they don't like, but as issues to prove that point with this is a very poorly chosen one.

The fact that operators are still making this software available to punters, when by now they must all be aware that it has some damning questions hanging over it is indeed a shocker; it suggests that perhaps only punitive measures imposed by the regulator would get their attention and result in some remedial action.

@ Richas - well said and worth repeating.

 

[ThePOGG]

I wanted further evidence of the issue with the free play games which haven't yet been removed, so i recorded a couple of videos.

In the first - found at

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- i played in Aladdin's Treasure Real Play mode. I was looking to find out whether the same number could occur twice in a row. This should happen 1 in 20 spins if the numbers are evenly weighted*. I played just over 100 spin and in that time the same number came up concurrently 4 times. That's well within the expected range if the numbers are evenly weighted (we'd expect a little over 5).


In the second video i played in Aladdin's Treasurein Free Play mode (you can find the video at

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). This time round i played 500 spins without a single number occuring twice in a row. Assuming that the distrubution should have been even the odds of this happening in a fair game would be (19/20)^500 = 7.27x10^-12 or 1 in 137,466,652,000.

To again quote the GRA license;

" 7.2. ‘Play for Free’ Games

(1) Play for free games for no prize are not gambling but should accurately reflect any „real-money‟ version of the game,

(2) In particular, such games should not be designed to mislead the player about the chances for success by, for example, using mappings that produce different outcomes than the cash game. Licence holders should be able to demonstrate this equivalence to the Gambling Commissioner upon request."

Betfred are still in violation of their license by continuing to offer a game that is unquestionably cheating.


*There's actually a very strong argument to be made here which would say that if the numbers are not evenly weighted this game has the same issue as Reel Deal

 

[manuels58]

And if in fact you're correct then the casino acknowledges the problem, removes the game, bans the software provider and pays the players.

Betfed did this, offered payback, so who are you after?

You should be after more regulation, testing of online games in general!

Well, it seems that you're saying that an operator (casino or any other), may intentionally* sell a rigged product without worries, because when that operator is discovered to be cheating they only have to say "Ups! We won't sell that rigged product anymore and we will reimburse anyone's losses".
Does this give you confidence? Only if for you is ok to be reimbursed when you discover you have been cheated for sometime, intentionally.

Unfortunately, that is happening all the time all over the world, in any business, but that's why supervisions exist, and that's why law courts exist in the last resource.

In my point of view, we should all be after a more trustworthy market, in order of all of us to be confident of fair gambling when we put our money in a casino.

I look forward to knowing the results of the supervisors and jurisdictions interventions.

*) Since they made a decision of buying a specific version of the game (their statement), this is "intention"; they were aware of what they were choosing and, if they weren't, well that's incompetence and is not legally admissible either, because they had enough time to check the behaviour of the game, as I posted earlier.

 

[P.V.]

I totally agree that all games should be tested, many aren't and should be so that's not my point.

I also agree that everyone that lost money due to this game should be refunded, again not my point.

What I'm saying is that although they know the software is bad now doesn't mean they knew it when the game was in operation, I've seen no solid proof.

I doubt very seriously that they were offered a rigged game vs. a fair game and they went with the rigged one.

The buck stops with the developer of the software/game and yes shame on the operator for not testing if it's their obligation per the authority.

It still doesn't prove malice, intentional cheating IMO but rather incompetence by trusting the supplier.

If the majority wants to think the casino did this on purpose, fine, I'm not sold that was the case.

It's a long thread so maybe you can point out to me again how they in fact knew the software was rigged but didn't care until this thread?

I've also never heard whether the software provider received a commission on player losses?

 

[binary128]

I wanted further evidence of the issue with the free play games which haven't yet been removed, so i recorded a couple of videos.

In the first - found at

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- i played in Aladdin's Treasure Real Play mode. I was looking to find out whether the same number could occur twice in a row. This should happen 1 in 20 spins if the numbers are evenly weighted*. I played just over 100 spin and in that time the same number came up concurrently 4 times. That's well within the expected range if the numbers are evenly weighted (we'd expect a little over 5).


In the second video i played in Aladdin's Treasurein Free Play mode (you can find the video at

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). This time round i played 500 spins without a single number occuring twice in a row. Assuming that the distrubution should have been even the odds of this happening in a fair game would be (19/20)^500 = 7.27x10^-12 or 1 in 137,466,652,000.

First of all, thanks thePOGG for doing this work.

I found myself getting very angry when I read your post.

I'm no angel, but if I were in the shoes of Betfred's casino management I would have been all over this shit like ugly on ape. All other work would have immediately ceased.

As you (thePOGG), and I, and a handful of other forum members know, doing this analysis ain't rocket surgery. It would have taken me a maximum of 2 days to get a complete analysis of each Play-for-Real version, and each Play-for-Free version of these games. The plug for all games would then have immediately been pulled, and the process of crediting the affected customers would have begun.

At that point, lawyers would have been brought in for council, trying to answer "Is this what we ordered, or is this what we got?" If this is NOT what we ordered, and what we got is clearly illegal in pretty much any gaming jurisdiction involved here, then law suits are put on the table.

Betfred, AND THE OTHER CASINOS INVOLVED HERE, provided these games to their customers. It doesn't matter whether they knew the games were "rigged" or not. That is just off-the-charts irrelevant at this point. If they didn't know before they certainly know now.

Do they consider their customers crap, just sheep, less than human? Don't they have even basic pride in their company, their business?

This thread started on Dec 27 2012. As I type this it is Jan 22 2013. Almost 1 month has passed, and your post that I have quoted above is then presented. Unbelievable, just un-freakin'-believable.

I find myself angrier now than when I started this post.

Chris

[Edited to add: As I mentioned in an earlier post, my logic for voting that Betfred be removed from the Accredited Casinos list was NOT based on whether they knew, or did not know, the full scope and ramifications of this mess beforehand. It was based on what I viewed as a history of incompetent management. What kind of a "Management Competence" scale can be used here that would allow this recent data from thePOGG to be included? I personally do not own a ruler that has "negative centimeters" on it.]

 

[ThePOGG]

It still doesn't prove malice, intentional cheating IMO but rather incompetence by trusting the supplier.

What else would you call it when a casino is specifically pointed to a game that is in breach of their license and a month later the game is still on their site functioning in exactly the same fashion?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

TBH it would be laughable if it weren't so deadly serious.

There's already a fair bit of anti-gambling sentiment in the UK off the back of FOBT (Fixed Odds Betting Terminals) that are destroying lives all over the place. I reckon the mainstream media would fancy a piece of this car crash action, especially since you have a familiar UK high street name using its Betfred branding for its casino but basing itself out of some tax exile jurisdiction where it can avoid UK taxes, and then duping UK players with crooked rigged card games.

It practically writes itself.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hmmmm.

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The allegations in the story were: "Last March he was taken to the Cheltenham festival – a trip worth £870 – as a guest of bookmaker Ladbrokes. He failed to mention this when he quizzed Richard Glynn, the chief executive of Ladbrokes, six months later during a select committee session. The parliamentarian has also been given an annual 'subscription' worth £4,680 from Peninsula Business Services, run by Peter Done – one of two brothers who founded BetFred, a bookmaker with 1,000 betting shops in Britain and which took over the Tote. Done remains a shareholder in BetFred's holding company."

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£5bn gambled on Britain's poorest high streets: see the data

Stephen Timms, the Labour MP for East Ham, said it was a "real problem" in his constituency which the figures suggest see £183m gambled in betting shops on these machines. "This is money people don't have. We have three BetFred shops on the high street in East Ham. Do we need them?".

I think an email to their newsdesk is in order.

 

[Richas]

Hmmmm.

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£5bn gambled on Britain's poorest high streets: see the data



I think an email to their newsdesk is in order.

Please no, not the methodist influenced anti gamblers at the Grauniad (and those anti gambling investigative journalists who keep on this subject when they are not getting Newsnight in the poop re false paedophile allegations.

This story requires some mathematical understanding or checking - that Guardian article with £5bn gambled in poorest communities deliberately confused total value of bets made with losses and falsely claimed to say how much was bet in each constituency. In reality they used average figures for the whole country using the gambling commission survey and the annual reports of some bookmakers to estimate the value of bets. multiple consituencies came up with the same exact figure bet because they had the same mix of bookmakers and they had taken national figures and averaged them.

Their assumption was that rarer machines in richer areas took the same level and value of bets as more common machines in poorer areas. This is of course a nonsense as anyone walking in can see the stakes being played and how wildly they vary. It was a truely awful article (and its the paper I read).

Give this to the same people and all you will get is an anti gambling piece not a piece about protecting players.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Give this to the same people and all you will get is an anti gambling piece not a piece about protecting players.

You could argue that fiascos like this really blur the line between 'anti-gambling' and 'protecting players' - to the point that they become one and the same thing.

As has already been noted, this has been running for nearly a month now, and Betfred are still serving up licence breaching games on their site.

You don't need 'mathematical understanding' to appreciate the con that has been perpetrated here, and besides which, the basics of the Guardian piece on FOBTs were sound, those things are a cancer on society, and they did the right thing in bringing it to public attention.