Extra Chilli Should Be Banned

[Supababe]

Interesting thread and I can see both sides of the "argument" here.

Although I have no doubt Extra Chilli does meet it's stated RTP, Dogshead does have a valid point in that the way it gets there encourages "irresponsible gambling".
The feature buy & free-spins gamble give players the illusion if you like, that they can take a short-cut to bigger wins - but in reality these big wins are extremely rare.

When I first started playing Chilli I too was convinced that the feature gamble was NOT a true 50/50 on the 8/12 spins, having experienced EIGHT losing gambles in a row. But in later sessions I was getting 50/50, or even slightly better results, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt and accepted that I COULD have just been very unlucky.

I made the choice to stop playing it - along with other similar slots. But I would be happy if these "buy features" were banned by the industry as I do think they are slightly evil.

And as for "having a problem"; yes I agree that the player should just stop. But by that measure I have a "problem" too - because I keep playing slots which I know are utter shite and that I will never recover my losses from, for e.g. Fynn & the Swirly Spin, Sweet Alchemy, Wolf Hunters, Snowmania, Viking Runecraft, and many more
These are all low variance games, but something about they way they work has me hooked and drags me back again & again

KK

I think you are my twin from a different life! This post is exactly what I would have written, (apart from wolf hunters and snow mania but perhaps I should try these next)..
Scary! Lol

 

[robby811]

I think you are my twin from a different life! This post is exactly what I would have written, (apart from wolf hunters and snow mania but perhaps I should try these next)..
Scary! Lol

Its your Brother from another Mother

 

[brianmon]

It saddens me, that when a thread like this is started by myself or other and gathers momentum the same names pop up and target certain individuals and label them as conspiracy theorists or have a gambling problem for returning to the same slot. Without acctually understanding or wanting to understand the fundamentals of the posts. Like this post now being labled as a conspiracy thread for example. Targeting myself for making such post and looking for a rise and reaction in attempt to get a ban from said initial poster or individual who too has valid argument.

This is trolling which gets overlooked unfortunately. I’ll probably face a ban or warning for that comment alone but it’s fact.

Just because I call for the buy in feature to be band and return with another example 12 hours later of why I supposedly have a gambling problem. So im guessing so does Dunnover who publically blasts bonanza when on a bad day but always returns to it or most of not all streamers??? Why not ridicule these guys!!!

Maybe their channels are well moderated. The point here is public opinion does matter and valid public argument for why players don’t like such things about slots and their design should be accepted. Maybe are argument can be labelled as conspiracy however we’ve all provided multiple counts of evidence that number are off and nothing is done about it but ridicule the player as having a problem by choosing to play the games or not. The player is always going to play the game and responsibility lies with both the developers, casinos and the players.

With so much criticism of extra chilli publicly why does BTG not offer a stake to an individual to consolidate the results of the buy feature over a huge sample size to put these arguments to bed.

£5000

Should be suffice to cover a good sample size on the micro buy ins.

Heck it’s their money going back into their pockets £10000-£15000
To cover the £50 buy ins.

A YouTube video or videos depicting the testing and a moderator collating and posting the statistical data.

@BTG any thoughts?

Why would you need money to test it out?

Do it in demo mode, and before you say the results will be different in demo. A few CM Members have tried it, and had just as disappointing results as you have in Real mode.
But it's always been claimed that their sample size wasn't big enough.

Do £10,000 worth of £10 buy-ins and record all the results

 

[Tirilej]

It saddens me, that when a thread like this is started by myself or other and gathers momentum the same names pop up and target certain individuals and label them as conspiracy theorists or have a gambling problem for returning to the same slot. Without acctually understanding or wanting to understand the fundamentals of the posts. Like this post now being labled as a conspiracy thread for example. Targeting myself for making such post and looking for a rise and reaction in attempt to get a ban from said initial poster or individual who too has valid argument.

This is trolling which gets overlooked unfortunately. I’ll probably face a ban or warning for that comment alone but it’s fact.

Just because I call for the buy in feature to be band and return with another example 12 hours later of why I supposedly have a gambling problem. So im guessing so does Dunnover who publically blasts bonanza when on a bad day but always returns to it or most of not all streamers??? Why not ridicule these guys!!!

Maybe their channels are well moderated. The point here is public opinion does matter and valid public argument for why players don’t like such things about slots and their design should be accepted. Maybe are argument can be labelled as conspiracy however we’ve all provided multiple counts of evidence that number are off and nothing is done about it but ridicule the player as having a problem by choosing to play the games or not. The player is always going to play the game and responsibility lies with both the developers, casinos and the players.

With so much criticism of extra chilli publicly why does BTG not offer a stake to an individual to consolidate the results of the buy feature over a huge sample size to put these arguments to bed.

£5000

Should be suffice to cover a good sample size on the micro buy ins.

Heck it’s their money going back into their pockets £10000-£15000
To cover the £50 buy ins.

A YouTube video or videos depicting the testing and a moderator collating and posting the statistical data.

@BTG any thoughts?

Well, the question for me is more why you keep playing a game that you want banned?

Would you keep on playing the game if it didn't have the buy feature?

Don't we always say that money talks so if people stopped playing the game they would remove it? Or maybe we could ask why punish those that can handle it?

Am I a troll for asking these questions?

 

[dunover]

It saddens me, that when a thread like this is started by myself or other and gathers momentum the same names pop up and target certain individuals and label them as conspiracy theorists or have a gambling problem for returning to the same slot. Without acctually understanding or wanting to understand the fundamentals of the posts. Like this post now being labled as a conspiracy thread for example. Targeting myself for making such post and looking for a rise and reaction in attempt to get a ban from said initial poster or individual who too has valid argument.

This is trolling which gets overlooked unfortunately. I’ll probably face a ban or warning for that comment alone but it’s fact.

Just because I call for the buy in feature to be band and return with another example 12 hours later of why I supposedly have a gambling problem. So im guessing so does Dunnover who publically blasts bonanza when on a bad day but always returns to it or most of not all streamers??? Why not ridicule these guys!!!

Maybe their channels are well moderated. The point here is public opinion does matter and valid public argument for why players don’t like such things about slots and their design should be accepted. Maybe are argument can be labelled as conspiracy however we’ve all provided multiple counts of evidence that number are off and nothing is done about it but ridicule the player as having a problem by choosing to play the games or not. The player is always going to play the game and responsibility lies with both the developers, casinos and the players.

With so much criticism of extra chilli publicly why does BTG not offer a stake to an individual to consolidate the results of the buy feature over a huge sample size to put these arguments to bed.

£5000

Should be suffice to cover a good sample size on the micro buy ins.

Heck it’s their money going back into their pockets £10000-£15000
To cover the £50 buy ins.

A YouTube video or videos depicting the testing and a moderator collating and posting the statistical data.

@BTG any thoughts?

My channel has little or no moderation, but yes I do go back to Bonanza after a bad day because I understand it and what to expect.
I also get why people like you feel angry about a slot then go back to it later, as the logic tends to be that you've had such a bad run that surely it will start balancing out and pay some back! I did the same no end of times on Rhino before I finally binned it for good 3-4 months ago.
Some games are very volatile with millions of possible results and large reel maps so unlike crap like St*rb*rst and Twin Spin etc. you CAN lose and lose and lose if you're unlucky, but can (like I saw on Bonanza) have extraordinarily lucky runs.

So yeah, I get why you almost feel a sense of 'entitlement' after being battered and battered by a slot so tend to return because you're incredulous at how it could possibly continue to batter you. It certainly does NOT make you addicted - angry yes, tilted, yes maybe but I myself and numerous people here have done exactly the same. It's very hard to bin a slot you've 'invested' so much in off.

If you check out a recent video of mine I posted in the EC thread, you'll see how Vikings Unleashed DOES visually reflect the true gamble odds, whereas we know Millionaire doesn't and EC doesn't either at the start, as I experimented with to satisfy myself I was correct. I still think this may be due to the fact that on feature buys you can often get 4 or 5 scatters and this is factored in to the FIRST gamble therefore the 50-50 appearance is misleading.

I agree feature buys are a bad idea in general, nothing wrong with having the token system like on WR though or Holy Diver which effectively does the same thing as WR but without the buy possibility.

So to conclude, do I think you have a problem? No, not at all as I don't and have done exactly the same as you before. I have made 4 deposits in 2 months, I'm possibly one of the least regular players on here.
Do I think posters have been too judgemental? Yes, because they cannot see past the 'addiction' allegation and don't seem to regard what I have pointed out above.
Do I think you have got things a bit wrong? Yes, slightly as you sometimes show too little understanding of how and why this can happen on certain maths models and game mechanics; unpleasant as it is to experience, the game isn't rigged or compensated - it is what it is.

 

[trancemonkey]

Sigh.

I said neither of those things. Your own post says that the reason it would be hard to tell between an 89% slot and a 93% slot is because "good designers design them that way."

Unless that's not what you meant to say, the obvious implication of that is that the probabilities of a well designed slot can be deceptive - whether intentionally or simply as a consequence of making a good game.

My entire post was about the potential ambiguity between these two factors, that it can be difficult to tell between a slot that excites a player with possibilities and one that deceives. Yet you somehow interpreted my post as saying "good slot design is deceptive" - almost the opposite thing I was saying. I was even saying I generally disagree with those who wish to ban such things as feature guarantees, but simply acknowledging that there are some merits to their position, that slots which try to tempt players with the possibility of big wins could sometimes be straddling the line of deception.

As I said in my previous post, many things which could be interpreted as deceptive - the obvious example being "near misses" - can happen simply as a result of probability with no trickery intended at all. There are far more ways you can "almost hit" something than you can actually hit it. But we also can't take it for granted that their are no slot designers out there that would try to amplify such things to take advantage of players psychology. Hence the difficulty - is enticing players with a near miss or an improbable jackpot good, engaging slot design or is it deceptive? As I said, that was the entire point of my post, acknowledging the difficulty of that question, even though my own opinion is usually "players should take responsibility for themselves, since no one else can do it for them."

If I misunderstood, I apologise.

It's a very difficult balance for game designers/producers/mathematicians to make games that play well, give the right amount of excitement, don't tease too much, have a good win distribution, etc...

It's very easy for people to get upset / angry and throw accusations around about what we do / don't do (not pointing the finger at you zreb)... but those that tend to do it the most have very little understanding of what slot games are actually all about and how difficult it is to make good ones

 

[dionysus]

it doesnt get much love here, but for my dollar, i really think VgoB was designed well. Enough things happening to keep me interested, a balance not quickly gobbled and potential for some 1k hits (granted, i dont touch it unless ive balance to spare)

 

[mack341]

I did buy a feature once that I even gambled on to get more spins. When I lost it was such an awful feeling that i will never do that again.
If I can stay away from buying them or at least gamble with them then you all should be able to also. If not, then there is absolutely no one else to blame for your own actions, ever. No matter what design.

The way BTG have set the game up with 8 miserly spins and the 50/50 looking wheel is such a strong inducement to gamble the feature, there's no way BTG considered this just a small, side incidental part of the game, therefore to me they were banking on players, in the majority, not being able to resist taking the gamble, and I think they got this prediction correct.

To me gerrymandering/manipulating games in such a cynical way to encourage chasing 'lost' bonuses sets a bad precedent for game design and what's acceptable, in the long run money does talk and customers will desert it but not before its caused a plethora of problems to thousands of players, and maybe even physical harm because to my mind it is capable of tipping vulnerable gamblers over the edge. [more so than other games, I realise all games have the potential but to me this game has a much greater potential especially because you can repeat buy the features]

I think with wwtbam BTG have slightly revised the gamble system, it seems people are getting to the guaranteed 10 spins more frequently than winning the first gamble on chilli. I still avoid it like the plague and recommend others to do so.

The more straightforward and honest a game is the better in my mind, I want the least amount of hurdles between me and the possibility of a decent win, BTG are going in the opposite direction adding more hurdles that players have to get over. So instead of getting lucky once with the RNG you've got to be lucky 3 times in a row...

 

[SlotGrinder]

Gambling is addictive . I don't think you can entirely blame the player because the human mind is wired in a certain way that's not necessarily 100% based in logic . We see patterns in randomness , we have hope that the next feature buy is the big one , even if the odds are against it and we can't really afford it . I know nicotine is not good for me and I quit smoking 4 years ago but I still sometimes want to buy a pack of cigarettes
Just because you manage to buy features occasionally and then leave them doesn't mean it's easy for the next person to do so .
Slot designers actively look for psychological factors to keep people playing and spending the most so it's not exactly surprising that it works on a lot of people . I don't think they should be banned for everyone but I do have sympathy for those who feel they add a new level to their potential losses

 

[Reelsoffun]

As i have said on other threads I can see pros and cons for feature buys on if they are good or bad but your missing the main point, feature buys are NOT a quick way to big wins, they are merely a short cut to a feature entry, eg cutting out the potential spins required to get one.

You will still have the feature average win to contend with, some above, and many below that's the risk you take.


If you cant stand the heat, stay out the kitchen, don't buy them if your not prepared to accept the bad with the good.

 

[trancemonkey]

I think with wwtbam BTG have slightly revised the gamble system, it seems people are getting to the guaranteed 10 spins more frequently than winning the first gamble on chilli. I still avoid it like the plague and recommend others to do so.

.

Well of course, as it's 8 to 10 rather than 8 to 12... true odds would be 4 in 5 vs 2 in 3

 

[mack341]

But I thought the first gamble on extra chilli was 8 to 12 ? So long since I last played it and tried that ####ing gamble wheel, on wwtbam I was just really going on the vids I've seen of people playing and comparing it to my experience and others of the chilli gamble. I haven't done an exhaustative statistical analysis, just a gut feeling I have, sorry

 

[Gaz237]

Well of course, as it's 8 to 10 rather than 8 to 16... true odds would be 4 in 5 vs 1 in 2

.

But I thought the first gamble on extra chilli was 8 to 12 ? So long since I last played it and tried that ####ing gamble wheel, on wwtbam I was just really going on the vids I've seen of people playing and comparing it to my experience and others of the chilli gamble. I haven't done an exhaustative statistical analysis, just a gut feeling I have, sorry

It is.

I think TranceMonkey has got a bit confused.

Luckily his job dose not require a decent level of math

 

[trancemonkey]

.

It is.

I think TranceMonkey has got a bit confused.

Luckily his job does not require a decent level of math

Dunno what you mean... I definitely said 8 to 12 ... Although oddly your quote says I wrote 8 to 16. Weird

 

[PMKFRUITPRO]

I imagine it won’t be to far down the line (maybe within 2yrs) that UK players will be facing a ban on feature buys.

At the moment and in recent times of course the focus has all been about FOBTS.

I imagine 99% of politicians/members of parliament know exactly what a FOBT is but probably less than 1% know what a feature buy is!!

If they’re getting their knickers in a twist over a £100 roulette spin, I imagine once a few of the clueless idiots that run the country are actually even made aware you can bet more than 50 times that and subsequently lose it with in 10 seconds via a mouse click, they’ll soon be preaching and piping up about saving the world from online casinos in order to get a few extra votes.

It seems to me that all the providers are competing with each other to produce the most volatile and of course the slots with the most potential, with what seems to be very little protection for the players at the other end and more importantly very few rules and guidelines to adhere to.

Something will need to happen soon imo, the way a balance can be stripped in litterally a few presses these days makes FOBT terminals seem like children’s toys in comparison.

 

[snorky510238]

I can’t really see the problem with feature buys when there are heaps of slots where you can play £100 a spin. One is as potentially dangerous as the other surely.

 

[dionysus]

I can’t really see the problem with feature buys when there are heaps of slots where you can play £100 a spin. One is as potentially dangerous as the other surely.

though a key difference, would be a $100 spin would pay out (assuming it won) at a $100 bet, whereas paying that feature buy at $100 still would only pay at the inital bet size.

 

[snorky510238]

though a key difference, would be a $100 spin would pay out (assuming it won) at a $100 bet, whereas paying that feature buy at $100 still would only pay at the inital bet size.

You have to consider ten losing spins and you 1k in the hole to start with.

 

[dionysus]

oh, personally, i could never foresee me spiining 100 a pop - nor buying the feature; they both stroke me as madness

 

[colinsunderland]

I think the fact Sky won't allow feature buys on megaway slots means the UKGC is looking into them. BTG say its because they have a max stake now, which is £100, but you could still do feature buys up to a certain level with that stake.

 

[dogshead1]

Some interesting and valid input, theory and advice in this thread. However just want to clear one thing up for all the people who still claim I have a gambling problem. Ummmm No I don't!!!!! Just because I played the slots and took the buy in features and proceeded to write the original and second post of this thread with my reasoning for why the buy in feature should be banned does not mean I have a problem and self exclude!!! When you decided to make such claims you missed the very first paragraphs where in each instance the money I lost were from profits from other games. I go on to tell the story why the money goes so quick with a few examples experienced of results that seem skewed.

The actual fact that I note: I went to the slot with profits is key here and hugely overlooked bar a few members and I thank those who took the time to read the post properly and have your inputs. (Dunnover especially whom came across unbiased). This makes me naive not an addict with a problem whom needs to self exclude. I still live a happy life put food on the table sleep well, provide for myself family and friends, work in a high exerting and stressful industry worry free and am happy with life. I have savings an have never played beyond my budget. If all or some of these factors are affected then yes by all means I could well have an uncontrolled addiction and problem.

Because I wrote the post in the first instance does that make me an angry person who has a gambling problem whom is venting my anger in a public forum. NO!!!!

Was or am I angry at the slot...., have been many time as have we all. Just at that given time I thought bollox i'm sharing my experiences and reasons why I think the buy in feature should be banned. All public opinion is constructive criticism or appraisal for all developers and casino operators and affiliates for that matter about all aspects of online gaming. Criticism or negative opinion It should not be ridiculed like I constantly witness after all appraisal is widely accepted. Again human nature!!!

Do I play extra chilli, bonanza or any BTG from a fresh deposit. Do I hell as like!! My initial deposit is money I can afford to lose and I steer away from BTG slots because there is no value in playing them unless your hugely rolled and have a wager to beat. Now here is where the argument starts. I use my profits money I can afford to lose to games with buy in features and Chilli is the only one I have such strong views on. As others have said and I have to agree it is an easy temptation to buy a feature and chase a big win. Odds are you have to gamble for more spins for a stronger chance. Or as mentioned in this thread is this they way the slot has been set up to deceive to make you think you have to gamble for more spins. That could be cause for a very strong argument. It is so hard to get to or past 16 spins and how often do you get 16 or more and get more than your buy in back in return? Risk for reward but see so much of huge investment show little return. Delving even deeper into the mechanics, RNG, Algorithms, behavior etc. Who's to say its not skewed at higher stake buyins to take back from bigger payouts. The slot can pay huge from maximum stake but what percentage of online players can actually afford to play those stakes??????? Recently Chilli and Bonanza have paid out over 100k because of lucky players hitting big time at the very highest stakes. Does this mean the slot should adjust the RTP at multiple buy in levels to recoup???? It certainly feels so. Whats the average high roller deposit...£500-£1000 so makes sense that £50-100 feature gambles show such poor returns. Then for arguments sake if this is how the mechanics work then low rollers should have right to feel ripped off because we are pumping the slots for super high rollers which are far fewer.

@brianmon Where as testing in demo is a cheaper option. I don't think it will be a fair test. I've always and will never change my mind on this after never seeing proof otherwise that demo mode runs the same algorithms or behavior than real money play. Same RTP yes but behavior will be different in real money due to amount of users, size of BR invested in any given session size of bets etc. This will show up different results in the fluctuation of RTP. Or a simplified meaning of this is in demo mode what difference does it make to company profits by its behavior. None whatsoever. When the test was conducted like you said and showed poor results it was claimed the sample size was not big enough. That again just argument to suppress public opinion and debate that something is not right. So I think my suggestion if fair game. They have nothing to lose its their money going back into their slot at real money play to settle what is now a large public debate about this slot with many of opinion, albeit a dedicated or willing casino to allow this test to be run.

I know and expect trancemonkey to now have his input or mechanics etc and how one huge payout should not affect the RTP. However its common sense that whether the mechanics are set it such a way that in all given scenarios it will claw and build and run poor at any random time before and after it decides to drop to allow for the huge payouts without risk of running the developer into negative income. Albeit upon first launch hoping it gets the volume of play required for success in profit margins.

Unfortunately I cannot post proof anymore of my slot session numbers as bizarrely slot tracker shows what may or may not be my lifetime numbers. I thought you had to subscribe for that info and I'm just using the free version which was recording just 24 hours history. Have things changed?

Also i'm 100% confident these numbers are incorrect as Bonanza shows as playing 42,178 spins and £46.955 in lol not a chance!!! I don't even earn that much a year unless I have been hugely profitable and played the slot in my sleep and my heavy work schedule which includes travel in countries that don't allow online gaming. So erm no that's not correct either. Not that I even use slot tracker anymore I cant be assed chasing them up to query it.

 

[dionysus]

However just want to clear one thing up for all the people who still claim I have a gambling problem. Ummmm No I don't!!!!!

that's just what an addict would say


put fown the frying pan, im kidding, im kidding

 

[goatwack]

Everyone here is addicted to some degree, it can be a very broad term. In my case I like to swap one vice for another, so when not gambling I dabble in drugs and hookers

And as Jesus used to say, he who throweth the-

he who stones the thro-

throw the stones guy

ah you know the saying

 

[dogshead1]

Everyone here is addicted to some degree, it can be a very broad term. In my case I like to swap one vice for another, so when not gambling I dabble in drugs and hookers

And as Jesus used to say, he who throweth the-

he who stones the thro-

throw the stones guy

ah you know the saying

Of course they are!!!! An addiction is an attraction, if you are attracted to more things than others then its an addiction. An addiction is not a problem unless curtain circumstances, scenarios etc lead the attraction to become problematic.

 

[mack341]

I wonder if BTG could have just allowed players to buy the bonuses with the number of spins they wanted and just done away with their bleeding gamble wheel; so if it was £10 for 8 spins at 20p it would be say £25 for 16 spins, the price based on however the mathematics needed to be worked out. It would still cause problems to some degree but would be much better than the dreaded gamble wheel. [edit: just to add that bloody mexican music doesn't help much either when you've just seen the wheel land in the black again!]

Thinking more about the banning side of things I'm not sure I like the idea of some bod or panel from ukgc deciding which games get banned, [they could ban raging rhino for causing excessive anger inducement ] I think it would be preferable for the casinos themselves to look into the matter, they could analyse their customers data on the game to look for signs of problem gambling relating to the gamble wheel and feature purchase, e.g. session losses for chilli compared to other games and importantly time spent playing in relation to losses, patterns of repeat depositing linked to losing and buying multiple features etc..

After all the gambling industry motto is 'when the fun stops stop' so how do they respond if they know one of their slots is causing a lot of grief when compared to other games?
[Saying that for all I know everything maybe hunky dory and the chilli game causes no more problems than any other game but I seriously doubt it]

I don't believe dogshead has a gambling problem anymore than anyone else here, there's not many who can truly say gambling has never caused them any stress or regret, and only ever been fun and enjoyable. What a gambling problem amounts to is all relative and in degrees, and there is no guarantee that in the future problems won't develop or recede. [must be my blinking hairline that made that word come to mind ]

Again another £1500 up the swan pipe whist getting shafted by extra chilli and its bullshit gamble feature.

Blimey considering this I think you have been quite constrained, I'd be flying out to Australia and hiring a blow dart hitman to take out btg's chilli game designer [only joking ] and your post#12 is passionate and straight from the gut, I can't see a problem with people relaying how they feel about a recent gambling experience or issue, it can serve as a good warning to others and help others feel a bit better if it also happened to them [partly why I enjoyed and now miss Dunover's rhino rants ]

Statistically speaking I don't think chilli is rigged and if a player had unlimited funds and time, the claims by btg about the gamble wheel fairness and rtp would probably stand up, but for an average individual playing the game and taking btg's advice to always gamble the feature, the weighting, odds and mathematics could come out badly against you and make the game seem rigged if that makes sense.