edw123 VS Casino Rewards

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Hi,

Just to tell my story about experiences with Casino Rewards - their business practices, approach to customer services, and in extention, the attitude of the interactive gaming council.

I won't beat around the bush - I have had problems with gambling in the past. So much so, that when, after some significant losses at a number of Casino Rewards casinos earlier this year, I made a decision to permanently self exclude myself to said casinos (I did the same with other Casinos, all of whom have honoured this).

At first all was fine. Contacted Customer Services, accounts were closed, spam e-mail and postal communications ceased, no problem.

Then, over the last 3 months or so, the Spam e-mail started up again, as did the Postal stuff. In a moment of weakness, I was then able to reopen one of these Casino Rewards accounts, and stake and lose a large sum of money.

When I subsequently complained about this to customer services, I was told to fill in a specific self exclusion form and send off to a specific location. When I explained that I had already self excluded, I was told to contact the "Risk Department". When I did this, I got a host of e-mails back from one individual who told me that they had no record of self exclusion, as they didn't have "the form". I in turn asked them to review the other Casino Rewards accounts to find evidence of my request. I was met with the same, repeated request to "fill in the form", although they did claim to have then self excluded me.

In the meantime, spam about offers still came to my e-mail inbox and home address - and still does.

I contact the interactive gaming council about this issue (and provided evidence), but to date, no response or recognition - bar Casino Rewards refusing to look further into my complaint as it's "with a legislative body."

I find the business process and customer services here from Casino Rewards dreadful.

I guess whilst you yourself might ask how this is relevant to you, as you're not a "problem gambler", I guess you'd have to ask yourself how trustworthy a casino where the customer services team (and indeed the legislative body) refuse to acknowledge or even discuss breaches of their own terms and conditions is.
 

P.V.

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
Hi,

Just to tell my story about experiences with Casino Rewards - their business practices, approach to customer services, and in extention, the attitude of the interactive gaming council.

I won't beat around the bush - I have had problems with gambling in the past. So much so, that when, after some significant losses at a number of Casino Rewards casinos earlier this year, I made a decision to permanently self exclude myself to said casinos (I did the same with other Casinos, all of whom have honoured this).

At first all was fine. Contacted Customer Services, accounts were closed, spam e-mail and postal communications ceased, no problem.

Then, over the last 3 months or so, the Spam e-mail started up again, as did the Postal stuff. In a moment of weakness, I was then able to reopen one of these Casino Rewards accounts, and stake and lose a large sum of money.

When I subsequently complained about this to customer services, I was told to fill in a specific self exclusion form and send off to a specific location. When I explained that I had already self excluded, I was told to contact the "Risk Department". When I did this, I got a host of e-mails back from one individual who told me that they had no record of self exclusion, as they didn't have "the form". I in turn asked them to review the other Casino Rewards accounts to find evidence of my request. I was met with the same, repeated request to "fill in the form", although they did claim to have then self excluded me.

In the meantime, spam about offers still came to my e-mail inbox and home address - and still does.

I contact the interactive gaming council about this issue (and provided evidence), but to date, no response or recognition - bar Casino Rewards refusing to look further into my complaint as it's "with a legislative body."

I find the business process and customer services here from Casino Rewards dreadful.

I guess whilst you yourself might ask how this is relevant to you, as you're not a "problem gambler", I guess you'd have to ask yourself how trustworthy a casino where the customer services team (and indeed the legislative body) refuse to acknowledge or even discuss breaches of their own terms and conditions is.

My question is did you in fact keep records showing you had self excluded in the past? If not it's easy for anyone to say you never did and that you're in fact chasing loses by suggesting you've already self excluded. I'm not saying this is the case but you see my point.

I do agree that self exclusion needs improvements within the IGaming industry, I'm actually trying to help in this area, although you need multiple gaming sites monitoring the same self exclusion database vs. just their own system. Current procedures are outdated.

So by example if you had self excluded at a 3rd. party self exclusion site being monitored by multiple IGaming sites there would in fact be a record of you self excluding yourself. I'm again speculating you don't have proof/records.

If you have proof I'd send it to them and request a refund of your loses. Without proof you're probably out of luck and should consider this a reminder why you stopped gambling once before.
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Hi,

Yeah, do have some records (chat transcripts, dates etc.). Problem is, Casino Rewards ignored and refused to investigate accordingly. Just met with a brick wall of "you didn't fill out a form".

Not holding out much hope from IG Gaming - they have disabled the customer complaints part of their website, and have ignored any communications accordingly.

Tempted to make an issue of this (and take some legal advice) - unsure how to go about this however, as they are an offshore casino with an offshore regulatory body.

All I can say is reading some of the other posts here, it seems on line gaming is a depressing environment and industry - no protection, utterly useless regulators who ignore and only respond presumably to formal legal challenges.

Just hope people read this and stay away from Casino Rewards and indeed anything regulated by the IG Gaming like the proverbial plague - if they can't be trusted to enforce their own T&Cs, and the regulator the same, how can they possibly be trusted to pay out, protect personal details/financial details, run fair games etc. etc. - if you come up with a complaint or an issue, well, you've zero chance in it being resolved.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
CR are renowned for being ordinary regarding the exclusion process.

However, you are NOT entitled to any losses to be refunded. You gambled it fair and square, and if you had won, I'm sure you would have demanded they honor the bets and pay the winnings.

You cannot hold the operator responsible for your personal weaknesses.
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Not sure that's the case Nifty.

My understanding is that if the operator is obliged to follow a safe gaming process - as defined by the T&Cs of their own Casino (which the gamer signs up to), and defined by their regulator, then these T&Cs are legally enforcable.

So if they've not followed a clear and concise request around safe gaming and not complied with their own T&C, then this in itself can be challenged legally. They have a duty of care and protection to a gamer - whether it's a problem or risk gambler or a "normal" player, they have the right to game within the defined T&Cs of the site and the regulator.

Your point ignores the emotive aspect of problem gambling - it's not a logical decision in the first place as you have tried to frame it, which is why casinos have the "safe gaming" self regulation in the first place.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Not sure that's the case Nifty.

My understanding is that if the operator is obliged to follow a safe gaming process - as defined by the T&Cs of their own Casino (which the gamer signs up to), and defined by their regulator, then these T&Cs are legally enforcable.

So if they've not followed a clear and concise request around safe gaming and not complied with their own T&C, then this in itself can be challenged legally. They have a duty of care and protection to a gamer - whether it's a problem or risk gambler or a "normal" player, they have the right to game within the defined T&Cs of the site and the regulator.

Your point ignores the emotive aspect of problem gambling - it's not a logical decision in the first place as you have tried to frame it, which is why casinos have the "safe gaming" self regulation in the first place.

If casinos start refunding losses of players who claim to have requested exclusion, or have requested exclusion but still managed to play (which is THEIR choice - they have NOT been forced), then every scammer on the net is going to use this process as a "free hit".

Tell me......if you had won a large amount, would you have insisted that the winnings be voided and your deposits returned, or would you insist on the winnings being paid in full? You can't have it both ways. Either the bets were valid, or they weren't.

You gambled with the expectation that you would be paid if you won......otherwise you would not have gambled....hence you must also expect to lose.

Neither of us are lawyers, so our POV in that regard is moot.

IMO, anyone who gambles and loses after being excluded/requesting exclusion, and attempts to claim their losses back, is a scammer. The only way forward for someone with a gambling problem (which you obviously have) is to ACCEPT responsibility for their own actions and find better ways to avoid gambling. Self-exclusion has been proven to be of only limited use (e.g. your situation), as you can gamble at thousands of places if you really want to......IMO doing this is handing the responsibility for your problem to someone else, and it counter-productive. A compulsive gambler will always find a way to gamble.
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Point is, the exclusion and self protection is there to prevent problem gamblers from gambling, i.e. to prevent them from harming themselves. That's why exclusion exists, and exactly why casinos and gaming outlets are - if they opt into self exlusion and safe gaming programmes - obliged to operate these.

You don't need to be a lawyer to know that if a gaming outlet - or indeed any business - is in fragrant breach of it's own terms and conditions, as well as those of it's legislative body, then it can be legally challenged.

If the casinos take your position - i.e. that problem gaming is the problem of the individual, not of the casino - and the individual has to be entirely responsible for their own actions (a pretty common position actually taken by anyone who isn't a problem gambler!), then they would be quite within their rights to state your opinion below.

But the point is, this casino (and indeed most gambling outlets in the western world) don't take that opinion - they accept they have a duty of care to the customer and indeed the gambling community, and advertise and promote this as such as "safe gaming", as so their legislative body - indeed, this is a pre-requisite for gaining a gaming licence in most regions.

On this basis, said casino cannot wash its hands therefore of it's obligations, and hence why they are legally challenged.

Your comment about "scamming" is patently ridiculous - it could only be successful if a casino blatently ignorned it's own T&Cs and legal obligations - so it shouldn't be a risk at all.

Best way to equate it is take a Heroin addict, who was in a position of recovery; imagine if a company constantly bombarded them with heroin, offers of free heroin and left it constantly in their property, mailed it to them, over a constant period of time, and then blamed then when they eventually took it, entirely blamed them and said it was their responsibility and washed their hands of it when they took it.

My point here isn't just CR failing in their exclusion - it's the fact they continued to bombard both by e-mail and home address with flyers after this point too!!
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Point is, the exclusion and self protection is there to prevent problem gamblers from gambling, i.e. to prevent them from harming themselves. That's why exclusion exists, and exactly why casinos and gaming outlets are - if they opt into self exlusion and safe gaming programmes - obliged to operate these.

You don't need to be a lawyer to know that if a gaming outlet - or indeed any business - is in fragrant breach of it's own terms and conditions, as well as those of it's legislative body, then it can be legally challenged.

If the casinos take your position - i.e. that problem gaming is the problem of the individual, not of the casino - and the individual has to be entirely responsible for their own actions (a pretty common position actually taken by anyone who isn't a problem gambler!), then they would be quite within their rights to state your opinion below.

But the point is, this casino (and indeed most gambling outlets in the western world) don't take that opinion - they accept they have a duty of care to the customer and indeed the gambling community, and advertise and promote this as such as "safe gaming", as so their legislative body - indeed, this is a pre-requisite for gaining a gaming licence in most regions.

On this basis, said casino cannot wash its hands therefore of it's obligations, and hence why they are legally challenged.

Your comment about "scamming" is patently ridiculous - it could only be successful if a casino blatently ignorned it's own T&Cs and legal obligations - so it shouldn't be a risk at all.

Best way to equate it is take a Heroin addict, who was in a position of recovery; imagine if a company constantly bombarded them with heroin, offers of free heroin and left it constantly in their property, mailed it to them, over a constant period of time, and then blamed then when they eventually took it, entirely blamed them and said it was their responsibility and washed their hands of it when they took it.

My point here isn't just CR failing in their exclusion - it's the fact they continued to bombard both by e-mail and home address with flyers after this point too!!

I would expect that someone angling to get their money back would have your point of view.

However, you didn't answer my question......did you expect to be paid your winnings in full if you had won? If YES, then you must also accept the losses. If NO, then you're lying, as nobody plays for real money if they can't win anything.

I've heard all these arguments before. Did you email or contact the casino to STOP the emails? Did someone physically force you to login, deposit, and play? Did you block casino emails in your mail application?

You're not trying to get justice.....you just have buyers remorse and want your legitimately gambled (and they WERE legitimate bets) money back....so don't try and come across as the victim here. It doesn't wash.

How about you retain a lawyer and sue them, since you are so sure of your own legal assessment of the situation. Should be a no brainer. Let us know how you go.
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
I would expect that someone angling to get their money back would have your point of view.

However, you didn't answer my question......did you expect to be paid your winnings in full if you had won? If YES, then you must also accept the losses. If NO, then you're lying, as nobody plays for real money if they can't win anything.

I've heard all these arguments before. Did you email or contact the casino to STOP the emails? Did someone physically force you to login, deposit, and play? Did you block casino emails in your mail application?

You're not trying to get justice.....you just have buyers remorse and want your legitimately gambled (and they WERE legitimate bets) money back....so don't try and come across as the victim here. It doesn't wash.

How about you retain a lawyer and sue them, since you are so sure of your own legal assessment of the situation. Should be a no brainer. Let us know how you go.


If you say so Nifty.

What you are displaying is a breathtaking ignorance of what is a problem gambler. You're looking at your own personal position, and judging those around you by how you think you'd act, so by definition, making a judgement on how they would act. Also corporate and indeed safe gaming legislation appears to have passed you buy.

The suggestion a problem gambler has "buyers remorse" shows how utterly ludicrous this comment is.

What you've actually said is your take on the situation. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but should you type "problem gambling", "safe gaming" or indeed look up the T&Cs on any casino, you may well understand....
 

P.V.

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Apr 17, 2010
Location
Turn around...
I can see edw123's point but I also see where Nifty is coming from. This type of regulation should come from the licensed authority within their gaming regulations.

I'm pretty sure if a minor is flagged within the new Nevada poker regulations the casino must refund their deposit(s), so I would assume if a self excluded player was flagged after a deposit(s), the same would apply.

The more I think about the moral, medical issue at hand, regardless of behavior, if in fact edw123 has proof of self exclusion the right thing to do is refund the deposits and work harder towards better self exclusion procedures.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
If you say so Nifty.

What you are displaying is a breathtaking ignorance of what is a problem gambler. You're looking at your own personal position, and judging those around you by how you think you'd act, so by definition, making a judgement on how they would act. Also corporate and indeed safe gaming legislation appears to have passed you buy.

The suggestion a problem gambler has "buyers remorse" shows how utterly ludicrous this comment is.

What you've actually said is your take on the situation. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but should you type "problem gambling", "safe gaming" or indeed look up the T&Cs on any casino, you may well understand....

On the subject of ignorance, you still haven't answered my question. I know you don't want to, because the moment you do, your whole argument collapses.

Bottom line is that you're pissed at yourself for losing that cash and you're trying to find some lame excuse to get it back.

In my experience, CR won't refund your money. You will have to go via legal avenues. However, I'm only an inexperienced newb so what do I know :rolleyes:
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
On the subject of ignorance, you still haven't answered my question. I know you don't want to, because the moment you do, your whole argument collapses.

Bottom line is that you're pissed at yourself for losing that cash and you're trying to find some lame excuse to get it back.

In my experience, CR won't refund your money. You will have to go via legal avenues. However, I'm only an inexperienced newb so what do I know :rolleyes:

Ah, yes, of course. Obviously the number of posts in a forum in fact dictates and defines your ability to debate or understand an issue. Surprised employers bother with qualifications or indeed resumes these days. How often someone contributes to a forum, however banal or ignorant is the new way eh!

As explained by the other guy on the forum, the point is whether or not I'd added the casino with a means to win a million and withdraw it is utterly irrelevant; the casino has a right to protect.

Incidentally, worth me pointing out at no stage have I suggested I was requesting a refund; I may be entitled to one either morally or under legislation, but in fact, I have raised the issue as it's a clear breach of casino terms and conditions which have not been followed.

You may thing it's right for the casino to ignore it's own T&Cs (on the basis of, again, breathtaking ignorance of what problem gambling is - did you even look it up? In your world, it's someone being greedy who has remorse for a loss, which I guess, again, is completely at odds with medical advice or even the advice and safe gaming of the casinos themselves) - but I don't.

Can only presume you're one of those people who things women who are attacked deserve it for wearing a short skirt.....dear, dear me. Feel desperately sorry for any partner/wife/children you may have (although arguably if you're posting on an online casino forum on a subject you are entirely ignorant of, expecting you to have any of those things is a little ambitious....)
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
at no stage have I suggested I was requesting a refund

Good, because there are 4 things you need to know:

1- You're not getting your money back.
2- Stay away from this group.
3- Having a gambling problem isn't an excuse for not taking your responsibilities.
4- Self-exclusion isn't a right, it's a service offered by some casinos.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
@edw123: the casino strongly disputes your claims here and based on what I've seen from them so far I can understand why. I'm still gathering evidence and will post shortly but in the meantime I've updated the thread title. FTR the original thread title was "Casino Rewards - Safe Gaming, Self Exclusion Failure".
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
@edw123: the casino strongly disputes your claims here and based on what I've seen from them so far I can understand why. I'm still gathering evidence and will post shortly but in the meantime I've updated the thread title. The original was "Casino Rewards - Safe Gaming, Self Exclusion Failure".

Happy to provide evidence if you're currently gathering thus...
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Good, because there are 4 things you need to know:

1- You're not getting your money back.
2- Stay away from this group.
3- Having a gambling problem isn't an excuse for not taking your responsibilities.
4- Self-exclusion isn't a right, it's a service offered by some casinos.

Tips here Balthazar.

1. Learn to read
2. Learn to understand words
3. Re-read the posts.
4. Understand the topic you are commenting in
5. Try again

You might avoid looking like a total a**e next time.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Happy to provide evidence if you're currently gathering thus...

Good to hear. In that case I suggest you proceed directly to our Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. This explains our formal complaints process and would, I think, suit your needs perfectly. I suggest you do this immediately. Before you post further here please indicate whether you will agree to take the PAB route with this issue.

And, as an aside, please stop insulting and belittling your fellow forum members. I've given you two infractions already for this and the next step -- if you persist in your caustic and dismissive ways -- will be something entirely more severe. You'd do well to (re)read the Posting Rules since you are in violation on several accounts and if you continue you'll find yourself unable to post further here.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
Tips here Balthazar.

1. Learn to read
2. Learn to understand words
3. Re-read the posts.
4. Understand the topic you are commenting in
5. Try again

You might avoid looking like a total a**e next time.


Not that long ago, someone posted here that he requested a self-exclusion at some casino and the casino replied with free chips offer. That was very unethical and that guy found tons of sympathy here.

If your point was to warn us that CR didn't honor your self-exclusion request and kept spamming you, you'd have found support on this forum. But you came across as someone who used a previous self-exclusion request as an excuse for a recent loss and that's why some of us have a problem with it. We're all gamblers to various degrees here. I've made self-exclusion requests in the past and didn't even try to log again to see if it worked or not, but if I had and found that I could log again, I'd have taken full responsability for what would have happened next.

CR is notorious for spamming and it wouldn't surprise me one bit that they even spam self-excluded players. However, this isn't an excuse for your loss.
 

edw123

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 25, 2012
Location
New Zealand
Not that long ago, someone posted here that he requested a self-exclusion at some casino and the casino replied with free chips offer. That was very unethical and that guy found tons of sympathy here.

If your point was to warn us that CR didn't honor your self-exclusion request and kept spamming you, you'd have found support on this forum. But you came across as someone who used a previous self-exclusion request as an excuse for a recent loss and that's why some of us have a problem with it. We're all gamblers to various degrees here. I've made self-exclusion requests in the past and didn't even try to log again to see if it worked or not, but if I had and found that I could log again, I'd have taken full responsability for what would have happened next.

CR is notorious for spamming and it wouldn't surprise me one bit that they even spam self-excluded players. However, this isn't an excuse for your loss.


That was my point.

Unsure exactly how the original post cam eacross as someone who had used previous self-exclusion as an excuse for a recent loss. That was suggested (with no evidence) by another poster?
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
Yes, will do. Doing so now.

Excellent! Please make particular note of PAB FAQ item 3.10 (here) which includes the following:
* don't post about your issue on the forums: wait until the PAB process has ended before you discuss it on the forums.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
That was my point.

Unsure exactly how the original post cam eacross as someone who had used previous self-exclusion as an excuse for a recent loss. That was suggested (with no evidence) by another poster?

Tempted to make an issue of this (and take some legal advice)

So you would be asking the court to:

1. Refund your losses, or
2. Give the casino a good talking to.

If you're looking at legal action, you're looking for a refund. So, it was you that suggested it.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
With all due respect Nifty I think you know that I've asked the guy to PAB and that would mean he's (temporarily) not at liberty to reply here. Let's let this sit a bit until we know how this is going to proceed. If it does go to PAB then readers should wait for that process to complete before pressing the case further with the OP.
 

Balthazar

The Governor
Joined
Aug 14, 2012
Location
Woodbury
With all due respect Nifty I think you know that I've asked the guy to PAB and that would mean he's (temporarily) not at liberty to reply here. Let's let this sit a bit until we know how this is going to proceed. If it does go to PAB then readers should wait for that process to complete before pressing the case further with the OP.

Max can you explain how a PAB would work in a case like that? What will you be looking for if he can prove that he requested a self-exclusion but the casino didn't do it? An apology from CR? I'm legitimately curious here.
 
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