Crystal Palace Casinos' IPO

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Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
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Location
Bierland
THE Crystal Gaming Group, which runs online casinos in South Africa and the US, is lining up to float on AIM.

The Isle of Man-based group is believed to have appointed Seymour Pierce to advise on the listing, which is expected to put a value of 140m on the firm.

Crystal claims to be the third-largest online casino on the basis of the number of visits to its sites, which include Crystalpalacecasino.com.

Warren Cloud, the 32-year-old South African founder of the business, and his family will retain a 45% stake in the company.

More here:
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amandajm

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2001
Location
London
Seems to me the way to get on in online gambling is to take liberties.

Whether that be starting up with rigged software (handa/iglobalmedia/partypoker/, popup or spyware hellraisers (888) or just plain ridiculous/Warren cloud/Don Fortune et al.

Mildly worrisome yet unsurprising.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I won't repeat what my initial thoughts were, but in actual fact this may turn out to be a good thing. Investor and market pressures leave little room for error. It could be just what the group, and the industry, needs to get on track.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
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Location
Bierland
I think there was a misprint - 140m should have been $140m - but this should be clarified sometime soon.

simmo! said:
...but in actual fact this may turn out to be a good thing. Investor and market pressures leave little room for error. It could be just what the group, and the industry, needs to get on track.
Exactly. When one puts himself in the public eye to be scrutinized, that's usually what happens. I think every casino group should be placed in this sort of spotlight.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Casinomeister said:
THE Crystal Gaming Group, which runs online casinos in South Africa and the US, is lining up to float on AIM.

The Isle of Man-based group is believed to have appointed Seymour Pierce to advise on the listing, which is expected to put a value of £140m on the firm.

Crystal claims to be the third-largest online casino on the basis of the number of visits to its sites, which include Crystalpalacecasino.com.

Warren Cloud, the 32-year-old South African founder of the business, and his family will retain a 45% stake in the company.

More here:
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lol. What next? Windows casino to float?

Btw, something slightly odd: the following page http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3400&page=1&pp=10 where you said the following:

Hi Winstond,

One question: why? Why deposit money into a casino operation that habitually confiscates winnings and deposits?

Perhaps you didn't know...but this is the standing operating procedure at the Warren Cloud casinos. It's well documented in this forum and others. Casinomeister's newsletter, webcast, and Evil Section.

You can probably forget about your winnings. But if you had made your deposit via Neteller you may be in luck. I'm in the process of contacting Neteller to see if there are options when casinos refuse to refund deposits. I have one woman who has been waiting since October. Pretty pathetic isn't it?

...

I also informed Warren Cloud of this and this is his response:

Delivered-To: xxx@casinomeister.com
From: "Admin" <admin@crystalpalacecasino.com>
To: "Bryan Bailey" <xxx@casinomeister.com>
Subject: Re: Re: pitch a bitch
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 23:15:57 +1100
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158


Bryan

Listen nicely my friend

Who the fuck you think neteller care about you who dont process a cent or me that processes 1 mill plus

Think about that you fucking retard before you mail a threatening email
again

NOW FUCK OFF and show paul this email as well

Why are you emailing me deal with RTG you prick

When I meet you in person we will see if you are as cocky

Also good luck in court you will need all the money you an get
Pretty nice stuff for the owner of a soon to be publicly quoted company.

The man is quite plainly not fit to run a quoted company, and this kind of information should not covered up.

So what's up with that?
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Curiouser and curiouser.

What happened to this page (WARREN CLOUD CASINOS - The list and The Big Trick)?

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8132

Or this one from http://www.casinomeister.com/newsletter/2005/5may2005.html?

WHAT'S UP WITH CRYSTAL PALACE? PT. III
Well, I think probation time is about over:

....

If you have been banned from one of these casinos do not sign up at another because you won't get paid. Until the Crystal Palace gets with the program, they'll be listed in Casinomeister's Not Recommended Section.
Um nope. Not there. No sign.
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Casinomeister said:
Crystal claims to be the third-largest online casino on the basis of the number of visits to its sites, which include Crystalpalacecasino.com.
Let's hope that list of sites is in their prospectus, because they sure don't like to tell their players.

Here's the way they work (
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)

Step 1: player claims bonus at casino A
Step 2: player cashes out (big mistake)
Step 3: player is banned from casino A (but isn't actually told this, just has their account locked)
Step 4: player is emailed offers like 120% bonus up to $9,600 from apparently unrelated casino B
Step 5: player deposits and wins
Step 6: player has winnings confiscated because he was banned from casino A.

Alternative Step 5: player deposits and loses

Either way it's win-win for Crystal palace

That site list in full

Crystal Palace
High Rollers Lounge
Vegas Riches
Americas Online
American Grand Casino
Golden Nile Casino
Lucky Coin Casino
Lucky Pyramid Casino
Royal Circus Casino
Vegas Frontier Casino

Interestingly from looking at Alexa, it seems that Vegas Frontier gets *a lot* of traffic.

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In fact seems to be more traffic than River Belle or Gaming Club.

Any idea where they get their visitors?
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
If Warren Cloud does successfully float his casino group, this will be good for the existing and future player base there. However I for one wouldn't want to buy any shares as he is not known for good customer service and they are likely to freefall if the Crytal Palace Group continue operating in the way they have done over the past few years.

I still find the valuation of $140 million laughable and vastly overpriced as well.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
thelawnet said:
...The man is quite plainly not fit to run a quoted company, and this kind of information should not covered up.

So what's up with that?
There is nothing being covered up. Warren and I have had our moments, and most of these moments were 2+ years old. The Crystal Palace group of casinos went from rogue to non-recommendable to probation to non-recommendable to off probation in the course of a few years. The non-recommended page was removed as I went out the door to visit the states for three weeks, and this is after Warren corrected the terms and conditions that he was getting hammered on. He corrected this - I removed the page. Fair is fair.

Now the "tricks" thread that you referred to was removed due to a couple members getting way out of line. Out of all the casinos - rogued and recommendable alike - complaints against the Crystal Palace group seems to be always directed against specific people. If you have a problem with a person, fine - contact him/her directly and deal with it. Don't bring it to my forum.

Incidentally, the issue that had Caruso so riled up about in the "tricks" thread I resolved by convincing Montana to reverse their decision. Now why wasn't this ever brought up?? :what:

No one said a thing...

General comment to everyone:
I'm not here to support or condone vendettas that some players have against certain operators. That is not my function - I don't jump on bandwagons. I also expect forum members to refrain from attacking individuals, and to respect one another as well. This forum is for the entire casino industry, player, operator, software provider, etc.; it is not a playground for bonus whores to beat up casinos when they don't get paid..
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Casinomeister said:
There is nothing being covered up. Warren and I have had our moments, and most of these moments were 2+ years old. The Crystal Palace group of casinos went from rogue to non-recommendable to probation to non-recommendable to off probation in the course of a few years. The non-recommended page was removed as I went out the door to visit the states for three weeks, and this is after Warren corrected the terms and conditions that he was getting hammered on. He corrected this - I removed the page. Fair is fair.

Now the "tricks" thread that you referred to was removed due to a couple members getting way out of line.
That explains why that thread is not viewable, but not this one: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3400&page=1&pp=10 where he told you to 'fuck off'

I really can't understand why you would go out of your way to hide that, and evidently quite recently as well, as the page is still in google. It happened, it's a matter of historical record, and I really think that potential investors in Crystal Palace, when searching for 'Warren Cloud' should be able to see the way that he has behaved.

Sure if the casino has cleaned its act up, and is now no longer 'not recommended', it's fairly reasonable to remove the rogue page, but what happened is what happened, and it's really strange to go back into history and start hiding stuff.

Out of all the casinos - rogued and recommendable alike - complaints against the Crystal Palace group seems to be always directed against specific people. If you have a problem with a person, fine - contact him/her directly and deal with it. Don't bring it to my forum.

Incidentally, the issue that had Caruso so riled up about in the "tricks" thread I resolved by convincing Montana to reverse their decision. Now why wasn't this ever brought up?? :what:

No one said a thing...
Well I have personally never played at any of his casinos. If I had seen something saying 'Crystal Palace has cleaned its act up', then I might have done. But as it is all I see is the mountain of history, and nothing to contradict it.

I don't think it is quite realistic that the isse you would resolved would be brought up spontaneously - 'man robs bank' is newsworthy, 'man doesn't rob bank' is not.

When Crystal Palace exited the evil list, it would be normal for them to get a listing under 'past issues'. Virtual Casino, Black Widow, etc., are all there, with a brief precis of what they did.

Crystal Palace didn't get this.

Therefore as far as people are aware, they are still rogue, since there is nothing to say otherwise. In July you said with regard to their evil listing 'The 404 you're getting is from moving files around when I reloaded the site.'.

So the way you were saying it, the page was simply missing, not that they were no longer evil.

And finally regarding whether they are still evil or not, Vegas Frontier says:

Any player exhibiting "bonus hunting" behavior will have their account terminated, bonuses seized and winnings void. Bonus hunting behavior is defined by the management on a case by case basis
'We will seize your winnings on a case-by-case basis'

That doesn't look very much like they have cleaned things up to me, and that is the problem.

Promotional offers are not available to any players who have been locked out of any of our sister casinos including (but not restricted to): High Rollers Lounge, Cleopatras-Casino, American Grand, Golden Nile, Lucky Coin, Vegas Frontier, Vegas Frontier and Vegas Frontier. In addition, Vegas Frontier contributes to and makes use of a shared industry database of promotion abusers. Individuals known from this database to only make use of promotional offers without ever risking their own funds will not be eligible for this promotional offer.
That's better, but stil not really satisfactory. They have listed some of their casinos, but where is Crystal Palace itself?

And also 'but not restricted to' is a bullshit term.

How often does he open a new casino? It can't be that often.

List all the casinos there, it can't be hard.

The door is still open to say either 'you cashed out to quickly, you abused, we take your winnings', or 'you claimed the bonus at Crystal Palace as well, you are therefore an abuser under our terms, we take your winnings'.

These terms don't to me smell like a new shiny, happy, helpful casino. I could be proven wrong, but all the evidence of past behaviour (such as the 'fuck you' page, above), doesn't really convince me otherwise. Given these things, it doesn't suggest to me that it really is a safe place to play.

But I would welcome the feedback of others, and perhaps a few player reports would be beneficial.
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Location
England
I'm currently out the harness and have little time to respond to particular commets. I'll have plenty to say when I get back in the harness.

Four quick comments:

1) Vendetta????? What is "vendetta" about posting 200% pure factual information? Nothing I have ever said about Cloud's deposit-eliciting techniques is incorrect, including what I posted at Casinomeister. I challenge ANYONE to find ONE comment I have made which is "inaccurate".

2) The suggestion that this is a "good move" is totally off the wall and the theory that it should apply to all rogues to "clean them up" is absolutely bananas. Following this to its logical conclusion, we should float all rogue casinos to "spotlight" them???

Gimme a break, purleeeeease.

3) It's interesting that the Cloud article that Thelawnet found had number one Google rank for "Warren Cloud" searches since its inception until about two weeks ago. Then, it vanished from Google. Now, we discover Cloud is floating his shit and could well benefit from covering up all bad comment. Coinidence? Or is there a way to get information like that pulled out of the Google archives?

4) Thelawnet: good work, although I've only had time to skim-read everything.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Webzcas said:
If Warren Cloud does successfully float his casino group, this will be good for the existing and future player base there. However I for one wouldn't want to buy any shares as he is not known for good customer service and they are likely to freefall if the Crytal Palace Group continue operating in the way they have done over the past few years.

I still find the valuation of $140 million laughable and vastly overpriced as well.

I'm just back from three weeks away in Alaska, North West Canada, Washington and Oregon, but to clarify on the press material on the Crystal Gaming IPO, here's some detail.

There was subsequently a currency correction which applied only to the latest pre-tax annual profits, which are audited at US$20.4 million:

CLOUD ONLINE OPERATIONS TO FLOAT ON LONDON STOCK EXCHANGE

Company valued by analysts at GBP 140 million

Well known online casino owner Warren Cloud and his RTG-powered Crystal Gaming group hit the headlines this week with a reported intention to list on the London AIM exchange with a value of GBP 140 million.

Cloud's group is the latest major online gambling group to seek a public listing in London, following the example of companies like Party Gaming and 888.com.

Crystal Gaming is, according to the report based on the Isle of Man and is believed to have appointed the respected investment company Seymour Pierce to advise on the listing, expected to put a value of GBP 140 million on the firm.

Crystal claims to be the third-largest online casino on the basis of the number of visits to its sites, which include Crystalpalacecasino.com. Warren Cloud, the 32-year-old South African founder of the business, and his family will retain a 45 percent stake in the company.

Seymour Pierce is confident that the groups track record - in the 12 months to June 2005 the group made a pre-tax profit of US $20.4 million - and the fact that the management are not selling shares will attract investors.

The expected GBP 47 million raised from the float will be used by Crystal to develop an online poker business.
 

eek

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 10, 2003
The expected GBP 47 million raised from the float will be used by Crystal to develop an online poker business.
:lolup:
45 million for poker and 2 million for Casinomeister so Warren can shut the place down and get rid of us. :D :D
 

mary

Dormant account
Joined
Dec 12, 2000
Publically traded companies do shady stuff all the time, so I'm not holding my breath on a cleanup here.

Look at Angelciti's press releases and self-dealing, for example. Or Enron, or Tycho, or Doyle Brunson's pump of WPTE.

Who needs $45 million to start up a poker site? What a scam.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
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Location
Bierland
The "fuck you" thread is still here, it's in a private area and it'll stay there. Why? Because there were a string of postings that focused on name calling. I chose to move it. And it's an old thread relatively speaking. Warren and I got over this (there were other colorful emails as well). But we looked finally at this as between me and him, and like I said we got over it.

To Caruso: Vendetta? That was a general comment to everyone. But if the shoe fits wear it. You know me. I will try my damndest to try and help someone when they are getting screwed over, like I did with funkbomber. You were so riled up over Funkbomber's complaint that you lost yourself in a series of vitriolic and vicious postings which I should have banned you over. If you had maintained self discipline, that thread would still be there for google to google the hell out of. The same goes for the f-you thread, but others were spewing their hate in that one.

Getting back to earth, are we making this IPO out like he is getting knighted by the queen? C'mon let's be real. Like Mary said, public traded companies can be just as sleazy as non-public ones. What the hell?
 

thelawnet

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 4, 2005
Location
UK
Casinomeister said:
The "fuck you" thread is still here, it's in a private area and it'll stay there. Why? Because there were a string of postings that focused on name calling. I chose to move it. And it's an old thread relatively speaking. Warren and I got over this (there were other colorful emails as well). But we looked finally at this as between me and him, and like I said we got over it.
Well that's good to know.

Evidently I wasn't the first one to notice this:

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and

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says there was a complaint about namecalling. I presume this was from Warren himself?

To Caruso: Vendetta? That was a general comment to everyone. But if the shoe fits wear it. You know me. I will try my damndest to try and help someone when they are getting screwed over, like I did with funkbomber. You were so riled up over Funkbomber's complaint that you lost yourself in a series of vitriolic and vicious postings which I should have banned you over. If you had maintained self discipline, that thread would still be there for google to google the hell out of. The same goes for the f-you thread, but others were spewing their hate in that one.
It doesn't seem to bad to me.

Judge for yourself:

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Getting back to earth, are we making this IPO out like he is getting knighted by the queen? C'mon let's be real. Like Mary said, public traded companies can be just as sleazy as non-public ones. What the hell?
Indeed not. But there doesn't seem to be a good reason to wipe out evidence of their sleaziness. People should know what kind of man he is.

The rogue page contained such delights as:

Hi,
You successfully processed my faxback forms on
29th.April.
You asked for my login ID on 3rd.June which I
immediately provided - (user name)
If my withdrawal of $402.50 is not received within 48
hours, I will recommend the blacklisting of your
casino to the Online Players Association, of which I
am an active member.

Sincerely
a player

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Mr X" <mrx@casinoextreme.com>
Subject: Fuck you and the OPA
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 18:55:08 +0200

Send us another letter like this and we will have your balls idiot
If nothing else, it's hilarious stuff, and it makes good reading for that alone.....
 

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