Corrupt Casino Watchdog Discussion

amandajm

Dormant Account
Joined
Nov 5, 2001
Location
London
I know Ladbrokes from the street for 15 years. Top operation. Ibas sealed.

Theoretical scenario >> I have no money. Just about to sign a 250k advert deal. Ladbrokes decide to take a stand on apparent bonus abuse over 20 on 1 random player out of 1000 and pay the rest, then move them on, to make a point.

CPA showed me the way. I listen when taught. Because I would sign the 250k deal.

Corrupted? Is Caruso right? (see below)

Question - Can a portal take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?
jetset said:
To Caruso - I am curious about one thing. Given your previous positions on webmasters and affiliates having conflicts of interest in player disputes, have you now come to accept that it is possible for industry people to handle player issues without bias or favour even if advertising for online casinos?


caruso said:
To Jetset - Conflict of interest is an insurmountable problem: in order to have influence you must have interests, because without the interests you will have no power - unless you are a powerful entity unto your self, as Casinomeister is after seven years in the job. The power is in those affy banners you can use to exert influence; without those, you have no power; with those, you have conflict of interest.

Question: you have a 50K media buy up: the casino steals a player's $50 bonus and $100 winnings and refunds his deposit; what do you do? If the casino just THREATENS to, then pays up, what do you do?

If you even have to CONTEMPLATE the answer, you are corrupt.
 

scrollock

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Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Location
boro, uk
the problem with affiliate banners, is that if a decision needs to be made regarding keeping a certain casinos banners, is that it requires a subjective decision, however as money is involved, then the chances of this decision being made impartially is very much reduced and much more likely to side with a persons own greed (no matter how much they deny it)

this is akin to a casino which rules on it own disputes without an outside body (such as playtech at the moment), the chances of having a fair and impartial decision is very much reduced as the companies balance sheet will decide the result and not what it is fair.

when it comes to affiliates taking down banners on the point of principle that they would rather forgo an affiliate payment than have a player ripped off, well i just simply dont buy it.

affiliates will take down the banners of rogue casinos because they dont want their site tarnished and their integrity questioned, as they know if they have a rogue casino on their site they know the informed player will simply not return to the site, thus the affiliate is thinking with his pocket

another thing is, if a casino is rogue and doesnt honour paying out winning customers, then the chances of them being honourable with their affiate deals is much reduced, so any sensible webmaster would keep away from them, again the webmaster is thinking with his own pocket.

going back to the hypothetical scenario, i dont think there is any webmaster in this virtual world who would take a stand on matter of principle over one customer and one small payment.

the only time a webmaster takes action is when his own income threatened either by a casino being so rogue it wont pay up, or a casinos reputation has become so bad that it threatens the traffic to the site.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
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Location
Bierland
Speaking from experience, if there is a 250k deal or even a 50k deal going on, then it's definitely not a watchdog site.

I would suppose that webmaster - starring hard at the 250k, and on the other hand at some obnoxious bonus whore - that webmaster would probably chose the money.

If we're going to make a debate about this cash vs integrity thing, how about making the scenario a bit more realistic :D
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
This should be interesting. And I am gonna bite my tongue as hard as I can, lol.
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
How about this - you're just getting ready to accept a 2k media buy from xyz casino, and the day before the campaign is being launched, someone complains on some other portal's message board that his winnings have been confiscated. That's all the details you have. What do you do?
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
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Oh, and the xyzcasino is licensed in Malta, and has been in business for six months. It doesn't take US players.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I do believe some webmasters can be objective if that's your question. I believe there are some good people in the world where not everything centres around money. Probably a minority though more's the pity.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
How about this - you're just getting ready to accept a 2k media buy from xyz casino, and the day before the campaign is being launched, someone complains on some other portal's message board that his winnings have been confiscated. That's all the details you have. What do you do?

PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
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swampwitch said:
PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.
 

scrollock

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Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Location
boro, uk
swampwitch said:
PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:

ideal solution and an ideal world, unfortunatly both dont exist.

for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
Casinomeister said:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.

Just join the forum. I can't even tell you how many forums I'm a member of and never go back. Then you can post and/or pm the person. Also, if you're already doing business with the casino in question, it shouldn't b too hard to get "your guy" to look into the problem.

Of course this doesn't take into account the occasional putz who just plain lost and decides to post all over hell about how "crooked" xyz casino is and then just disappears. Or the rival forum owner who creates a new account and posts just to discredit the other forum's choices in sponsors.

Here's the point...Any forum/portal owner who takes a lucrative deal and then does not also look out for the players AND the casino's he/she represents is not a person one should be downloading from. The definition of "fairness" may not always be black and white, but the best we can do is at least TRY to be aboveboard.

The argument can be made that there is no such thing as a "true" watchdog, because all current watchdogs also either promote casinos/bingo/poker/sportsbooks...OR....the money used to run the watchdog is provided by gambling venues. BUT, each portal/forum has the responsibilty to watchdog what goes on.

So, watchdog as VERB is what we should all aspire to.
 

swampwitch

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Joined
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Location
Iowa, dammit.
for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.

Sorry scrollock, but we're not all like that. I know Sorrelltop and myself have dropped our share of casinos and poker rooms who haven't lived up to what we believe is fairness to the player...and lost quite a bit of income in the process. Hell, Bryan's dropped entire software groups.

Please don't paint all webmasters with the same brush.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Just out of interest JoeyL, what's your take on it?

Cheers

Simmo!

[edit: just saw Caruso's take on it in another thread so removed part of the question]
 
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spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
scrollock said:
for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket

Up to here, you're correct. Webmasters always vote with their pockets. I voted many times with my empty pockets - to keep them empty. And I don't doubt that sometimes, I might vote to fill my pockets if I believe the dispute isn't valid - and believe me many of the complaints that find their way to the forums are far from valid.

As for sweeping under the carpet - in my case at least, you're wrong. In Meister's case, I'm pretty sure you're wrong too. And as for the rest of the webmasters, they will speak up for themselves, you can be quite certain.

Like swampwitch said, don't paint us all with the same brush. After all, we don't paint all players with the same brush either (especially since most of us are also players!)
 
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Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Swampy, you just made me remember (again) why I love you and Sorrell so much. You have voiced perfectly everything that I feel about this issue, thanks!!! Excellent points. Especially this one....

The argument can be made that there is no such thing as a "true" watchdog, because all current watchdogs also either promote casinos/bingo/poker/sportsbooks...OR....the money used to run the watchdog is provided by gambling venues. BUT, each portal/forum has the responsibilty to watchdog what goes on.

So, watchdog as VERB is what we should all aspire to.
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
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Location
Bierland
scrollock said:
ideal solution and an ideal world, unfortunatly both dont exist.

for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.
Well, for whatever reason amandajm entitled the thread "Corrupt Casino Watchdog Discussion" not "Corrupt Casino Portal Discussion" Some of us may be missing something here.

Scrollock - it's a sad day in Casinomeisterland since you think that webmasters like me would say screw the player and take the the 2k. :(
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
Joined
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Location
England
Casinomeister said:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.

You will have noted I know sod all about this after my "50K media buy" example.

1) Take the deal - innocent until proven guilty.

2) Investigate the complaint.

3) If valid, pay back the money and pull the banner.

Why would you even CONTEMPLATE anything else? I wouldn't - and if the situation ever arises, you're more than welcome to quote me.

Of course, I'm assuming 3) is an option - so see my "know sod all" caveat.
 

Casinomeister

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swampwitch said:
Just join the forum. I can't even tell you how many forums I'm a member of and never go back...
Oldtimers like me never join other message boards unless they are non-casino related. I eat in my own restaraunt and not across the street :D

I think common sense rules on this one. If you're taking money from someone, you got to know who you are dealing with, and if there is anything that makes you uncomfortable about this - then don't do it. Simple as that.

I'm moving this to the "Industry Discussion Section" since this is strictly industry related.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Scrollock - it's a sad day in Casinomeisterland since you think that webmasters like me would say screw the player and take the the 2k.

I agree. I need look no further than the casinos advertised on this site to see that this site and it's owner do indeed have integrity. I don't see any banners for Connect To Casino, or Cirrus, or Virtual Casino...or any of the Playtechs that have had all these complaints lately (among many others too numerous to list). The list goes on. What I do see represented are reputable casinos, and a webmaster/portal owner who is willing to go to bat for anyone with a LEGITIMATE complaint. From what I see he gets very little compensation and/or thanks for doing that..and from what I'm reading today, very little respect either. Yes, I'm sure he collects revenue from advertising, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the casinos he advertises are reputable. I also see a constant litany of complaints from people who sign up at less than desirable casinos, who don't bother to familiarize themselves with the casino or it's T & C's, and then the first place they run to when they have a problem is Casinomeister. I don't think that the average player understands the time and effort involved in dealing with issues like what we see posted here everyday. And this "mediation" service is provided to players free of charge. If only more webmasters were as diligent and industry-minded as Bryan, online gaming would be a much safer and enjoyable form of entertainment. Until I see something drastic that changes my mind, I certainly have no issues with the way I see business done here. It's professional, it's informative, it's helpful and sometimes it's even fun. It bothers me to see an established member here feel any less, and to question the integrity of this site.
 

Simmo!

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Pinababy69 said:
I agree. I need look no further than the casinos advertised on this site to see that this site and it's owner do indeed have integrity. I don't see any banners for Connect To Casino, or Cirrus, or Virtual Casino...or any of the Playtechs that have had all these complaints lately (among many others too numerous to list). The list goes on. What I do see represented are reputable casinos, and a webmaster/portal owner who is willing to go to bat for anyone with a LEGITIMATE complaint. From what I see he gets very little compensation and/or thanks for doing that..and from what I'm reading today, very little respect either. Yes, I'm sure he collects revenue from advertising, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the casinos he advertises are reputable. I also see a constant litany of complaints from people who sign up at less than desirable casinos, who don't bother to familiarize themselves with the casino or it's T & C's, and then the first place they run to when they have a problem is Casinomeister. I don't think that the average player understands the time and effort involved in dealing with issues like what we see posted here everyday. And this "mediation" service is provided to players free of charge. If only more webmasters were as diligent and industry-minded as Bryan, online gaming would be a much safer and enjoyable form of entertainment. Until I see something drastic that changes my mind, I certainly have no issues with the way I see business done here. It's professional, it's informative, it's helpful and sometimes it's even fun. It bothers me to see an established member here feel any less, and to question the integrity of this site.

Simmo's "Post Of The Day" award :thumbsup:

You sometimes wonder why some players (no-one in particular) even bother with online gambling the way they go on about how corrupt it is.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
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Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
You sometimes wonder why some players (no-one in particular) even bother with online gambling the way they go on about how corrupt it is.

Funny you should mention that Simmo, I was talking to someone on the phone the other day and said the exact same thing. We were talking about constant rants of this software is rigged, this BJ game is fixed, the people from this casino are thieves, this webmaster is crooked, and on and on. I stated that if online gaming ceased to be fun for me, and became a source of such angst, I would just simply quit...and move on to something that provided more pleasure. And if you truly believe that it is all fixed, and you can NEVER win..why are you playing? {shaking head} :)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Certain Affiliates

I tend to judge affiliate sites by who they advertise. When I see a site happily plugging away with juicy offers for joining Vegas Red and another couple from the same group (without telling punters that this is actually against the terms as said group), along with Golden Palace and a couple of others on the dubious list I tend to inform the impression that it is the operator that pays the most (having made the most), rather than the fairest, that gets listed.

My own site cost me 33, and has generated the grandiose sum of 18 from one Fruit machine player who had a crack at Intercasino, but then thought better of it after 2 months. I doubt, therefore, I would ever be facing this moral dilemma, however I can see why there would be a question if the amount on offer was very large in comparison with what an affiliate was currently making. If an affiliate managed to get a bad image, but was prepared to take the money rather than take the moral high ground, they would simply start again with a new looking site and port their deals over to it. A new site would allow then to start with a clean slate, and this is a practice often employed by dodgy builders, plumbers and the like, once they become known well enough for shoddy work and dodgy deals. It can be quite hard to tell if that "new" company is really new, or just a reincarnation of a bankrupted rogue taking advantage of company law.

It seems more than likely I am promoting the wrong thing, I should be doing Poker as the main feature, as whenever one of the fruit machine players asks me something about gaming online, it is invariably about Poker (and whether it is rigged, can be trusted etc - just as on this forum).
My original idea was to introduce an alternative to our UK Fruit Machines, which pay a mere 70% to 74% back, as opposed to the 95% or so online.
 

Chatmaster

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South Africa
This will by far be my longest post ever, and is purely based on my own experience, if anyone disagrees on points I made, I’d love to hear from you… :D

I have to add the following. In the scenario explained above by the meister. I would say that both the player and casino has a responsibility towards the webmaster to sort this out ASAP. Many times disgruntled players makes a bad post in order to bad the casino and nothing more, this is the case most of the time. In many other cases the player is all upset but missed a point in the T&C or didn't understand something as well as they should have. If the matter is that serious and the player does want it resolved they do most of the time react to any requests from the webmaster in order to sort out the issue almost instantly. On the other hand casinos tend to avoid issues only if they know they did screw up. If they have a valid point and can support their actions they usually reply very quickly to resolve the matter.

I also would like to add at this point that many casino operators are extremely scared of the unknown, to many casinos views an open forum is a VERY scary place and they feel it is the most dangerous place on earth,... This is normally caused by senior management feeling that it is dangerous to engage with player issues in a public forum due to them being taken to the slaughter. It is also often difficult for the casino to react to certain claims made as sometimes if they are at fault,... in the majority of open forums they are taken to the slaughter by all the forum members and things can often get out of hand. Unfortunately this is the reality at forums where the webmasters are still green or afraid to take a stand against members that get out of hand as they need those members to have a forum :rolleyes: Off course there are also the arrogant I am a rich bastard casino bosses. I think we all know some of them, but they are truly in the minority.

From personal experience I can also tell you this much, and affiliates or other potential watchdog sites can learn from the big, BIG webmasters that are engaging in the discussion on this forum, they are that big because they take the right decisions. You can only earn the top dollar if you build your business on good ethics. I am pretty confident that the webmasters involved in this thread will easily kick any casinos bum even for 200k if they have proven to be rotten and arrogant scoundrels! I hope none of you would disappoint me on that issue. :D

At the end of the day you get two types of forums...

You get the forums that are an absolute breeding ground for ranting, players, losers and BS artists. They are usually managed by either new webmasters or greedy selfish webmasters that actually want their members to loose so they can make more money. These rant forums are avoided by both reputable casinos and sensible players. So it is definite win loose situation. It is these forums where that player that endanger that 200k deal will soon find themselves banned and missing their delicious post as all evidence will just disappear for the sake of money.

Then you get the forum that have successful players on them, that gets the best plays because they are actually having fun whilst learning the facts and playing at reputable casinos. These forums are usually supported by both the reputable casinos and the best players. So it is a win, win situation. BS members and casinos soon feel they are unwelcome and leave so this is the paradise forum where everyone wins.

So in the case of the $2000... Maybe have an escape clause in your contracts with advertisers that in the case where a claim are made against a casino what the actions should be in order to resolve the issue, and if the issue doesn't get resolved in a timely manner the advertising contract will be terminated at X costs. Reputable casinos know that good and solid websites assist them in keeping their players happy and fulfill a very important role for them, they will therefore try everything in there power to do their best to resolve problem issues to prevent termination of advertising contracts. Years ago my Colonel would always say "discipline wetwipe (youngster),... ruthless discipline!" :confused:
 
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