Corrupt Casino Watchdog Discussion

amandajm

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2001
Location
London
I know Ladbrokes from the street for 15 years. Top operation. Ibas sealed.

Theoretical scenario >> I have no money. Just about to sign a 250k advert deal. Ladbrokes decide to take a stand on apparent bonus abuse over 20 on 1 random player out of 1000 and pay the rest, then move them on, to make a point.

CPA showed me the way. I listen when taught. Because I would sign the 250k deal.

Corrupted? Is Caruso right? (see below)

Question - Can a portal take advertising money and take a stand on principle for the player in EVERY situation that arises?
jetset said:
To Caruso - I am curious about one thing. Given your previous positions on webmasters and affiliates having conflicts of interest in player disputes, have you now come to accept that it is possible for industry people to handle player issues without bias or favour even if advertising for online casinos?


caruso said:
To Jetset - Conflict of interest is an insurmountable problem: in order to have influence you must have interests, because without the interests you will have no power - unless you are a powerful entity unto your self, as Casinomeister is after seven years in the job. The power is in those affy banners you can use to exert influence; without those, you have no power; with those, you have conflict of interest.

Question: you have a 50K media buy up: the casino steals a player's $50 bonus and $100 winnings and refunds his deposit; what do you do? If the casino just THREATENS to, then pays up, what do you do?

If you even have to CONTEMPLATE the answer, you are corrupt.
 

scrollock

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Location
boro, uk
the problem with affiliate banners, is that if a decision needs to be made regarding keeping a certain casinos banners, is that it requires a subjective decision, however as money is involved, then the chances of this decision being made impartially is very much reduced and much more likely to side with a persons own greed (no matter how much they deny it)

this is akin to a casino which rules on it own disputes without an outside body (such as playtech at the moment), the chances of having a fair and impartial decision is very much reduced as the companies balance sheet will decide the result and not what it is fair.

when it comes to affiliates taking down banners on the point of principle that they would rather forgo an affiliate payment than have a player ripped off, well i just simply dont buy it.

affiliates will take down the banners of rogue casinos because they dont want their site tarnished and their integrity questioned, as they know if they have a rogue casino on their site they know the informed player will simply not return to the site, thus the affiliate is thinking with his pocket

another thing is, if a casino is rogue and doesnt honour paying out winning customers, then the chances of them being honourable with their affiate deals is much reduced, so any sensible webmaster would keep away from them, again the webmaster is thinking with his own pocket.

going back to the hypothetical scenario, i dont think there is any webmaster in this virtual world who would take a stand on matter of principle over one customer and one small payment.

the only time a webmaster takes action is when his own income threatened either by a casino being so rogue it wont pay up, or a casinos reputation has become so bad that it threatens the traffic to the site.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
Speaking from experience, if there is a 250k deal or even a 50k deal going on, then it's definitely not a watchdog site.

I would suppose that webmaster - starring hard at the 250k, and on the other hand at some obnoxious bonus whore - that webmaster would probably chose the money.

If we're going to make a debate about this cash vs integrity thing, how about making the scenario a bit more realistic :D
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
This should be interesting. And I am gonna bite my tongue as hard as I can, lol.
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
How about this - you're just getting ready to accept a 2k media buy from xyz casino, and the day before the campaign is being launched, someone complains on some other portal's message board that his winnings have been confiscated. That's all the details you have. What do you do?
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
Oh, and the xyzcasino is licensed in Malta, and has been in business for six months. It doesn't take US players.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
I do believe some webmasters can be objective if that's your question. I believe there are some good people in the world where not everything centres around money. Probably a minority though more's the pity.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
How about this - you're just getting ready to accept a 2k media buy from xyz casino, and the day before the campaign is being launched, someone complains on some other portal's message board that his winnings have been confiscated. That's all the details you have. What do you do?

PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:
 

Casinomeister

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Staff member
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Location
Bierland
swampwitch said:
PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.
 

scrollock

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 4, 2005
Location
boro, uk
swampwitch said:
PM the player in question and ask permission to look into the problem for him. Weigh both sides. If the casino is clearly at fault, or won't answer questions satisfactorily, do not accept their business and/or drop them from your site. If the player is clearly at fault, let him know that you can't go to bat for them because of this. If the dispute turns out to be a 50/50 at fault ambiguous mess, try to mediate a comfortable solution for both parties.

Now, where did I put those rose colored glasses.....:rolleyes:

ideal solution and an ideal world, unfortunatly both dont exist.

for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
Casinomeister said:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.

Just join the forum. I can't even tell you how many forums I'm a member of and never go back. Then you can post and/or pm the person. Also, if you're already doing business with the casino in question, it shouldn't b too hard to get "your guy" to look into the problem.

Of course this doesn't take into account the occasional putz who just plain lost and decides to post all over hell about how "crooked" xyz casino is and then just disappears. Or the rival forum owner who creates a new account and posts just to discredit the other forum's choices in sponsors.

Here's the point...Any forum/portal owner who takes a lucrative deal and then does not also look out for the players AND the casino's he/she represents is not a person one should be downloading from. The definition of "fairness" may not always be black and white, but the best we can do is at least TRY to be aboveboard.

The argument can be made that there is no such thing as a "true" watchdog, because all current watchdogs also either promote casinos/bingo/poker/sportsbooks...OR....the money used to run the watchdog is provided by gambling venues. BUT, each portal/forum has the responsibilty to watchdog what goes on.

So, watchdog as VERB is what we should all aspire to.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
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Location
Iowa, dammit.
for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.

Sorry scrollock, but we're not all like that. I know Sorrelltop and myself have dropped our share of casinos and poker rooms who haven't lived up to what we believe is fairness to the player...and lost quite a bit of income in the process. Hell, Bryan's dropped entire software groups.

Please don't paint all webmasters with the same brush.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Staff member
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Location
England
Just out of interest JoeyL, what's your take on it?

Cheers

Simmo!

[edit: just saw Caruso's take on it in another thread so removed part of the question]
 
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spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
scrollock said:
for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket

Up to here, you're correct. Webmasters always vote with their pockets. I voted many times with my empty pockets - to keep them empty. And I don't doubt that sometimes, I might vote to fill my pockets if I believe the dispute isn't valid - and believe me many of the complaints that find their way to the forums are far from valid.

As for sweeping under the carpet - in my case at least, you're wrong. In Meister's case, I'm pretty sure you're wrong too. And as for the rest of the webmasters, they will speak up for themselves, you can be quite certain.

Like swampwitch said, don't paint us all with the same brush. After all, we don't paint all players with the same brush either (especially since most of us are also players!)
 
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Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Swampy, you just made me remember (again) why I love you and Sorrell so much. You have voiced perfectly everything that I feel about this issue, thanks!!! Excellent points. Especially this one....

The argument can be made that there is no such thing as a "true" watchdog, because all current watchdogs also either promote casinos/bingo/poker/sportsbooks...OR....the money used to run the watchdog is provided by gambling venues. BUT, each portal/forum has the responsibilty to watchdog what goes on.

So, watchdog as VERB is what we should all aspire to.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
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Location
Bierland
scrollock said:
ideal solution and an ideal world, unfortunatly both dont exist.

for the simple fact is, when faced with only one dispute the webmaster will vote with his pocket and sweep the matter under the carpet,he will only take action when there are so many compliants that he is unable to sweep them away and will only then do it then because it will affect his other income.
Well, for whatever reason amandajm entitled the thread "Corrupt Casino Watchdog Discussion" not "Corrupt Casino Portal Discussion" Some of us may be missing something here.

Scrollock - it's a sad day in Casinomeisterland since you think that webmasters like me would say screw the player and take the the 2k. :(
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
Joined
Jan 16, 2002
Location
England
Casinomeister said:
But let's say you have no way to get in touch with the player. You're not a member of the other portal's message board - and you have no way to test the validity of the player's complaint.

You will have noted I know sod all about this after my "50K media buy" example.

1) Take the deal - innocent until proven guilty.

2) Investigate the complaint.

3) If valid, pay back the money and pull the banner.

Why would you even CONTEMPLATE anything else? I wouldn't - and if the situation ever arises, you're more than welcome to quote me.

Of course, I'm assuming 3) is an option - so see my "know sod all" caveat.
 

Casinomeister

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Bierland
swampwitch said:
Just join the forum. I can't even tell you how many forums I'm a member of and never go back...
Oldtimers like me never join other message boards unless they are non-casino related. I eat in my own restaraunt and not across the street :D

I think common sense rules on this one. If you're taking money from someone, you got to know who you are dealing with, and if there is anything that makes you uncomfortable about this - then don't do it. Simple as that.

I'm moving this to the "Industry Discussion Section" since this is strictly industry related.
 
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