Class 1 Casino don't pay my winning!

[Markus]

Hello,

the Playtech Casino "Class 1 Casino" (class1casino.com) refuse to pay my winning of 1140 Euro. The casino maintained that I had abused their bonus. In doing so they refer to a rule which says that the casino has the right to estimate in it's sole discretion if someone using strategies which are in there opinion abusive. With that rule the casino has the ability to refuse the payout of any player who is playing with a bunus and win some money.

I have deposit 75 Euro and got a 300% bonus. Then my balance was 300 Euro. First I have played the game "Penalty Shootout" and bet 100 Euro on "Odds X12". I was lucky and won 1200 Euro. My new balance: 1400 Euro
Then I have played the game "Spin A Win" and bet on 22 from 24 numbers 2 Euro per number. I have played until I met the wagering requirement of 20x(deposit+bonus). After that I had a balace of 1365 Euro. The bonus was sticky so I have requested a withdrawal of 1140 Euro.


Some days later I got a mail from Class 1 Casino:
German original:

Hallo

Ich mu� Sie leider dar�ber informieren, dass Ihr Konto gesperrt wurde.
Als wir Ihre Statistik durchgesehen haben, stellten wir fest, dass Sie
auf die Weise Spielen, die in unserem Endbenutzervertrag (Terms &
Conditions) als Bonusabuser bezeichnet wird.
Daher werden wir laut unserem Endbenutzervertrag die folgenden
Schritte.unternehmen. Sie erhalten Ihre Einzahlung zur�ck, Ihre Gewinne
werden als nichtig erkl�rt und Ihr Kasinokonto wird gesperrt.

Falls Sie irgendwelche Fragen haben sollten, kontaktieren Sie uns Bitte
mittells einer E-mail, die Sie an [email protected] schicken.


Mit freundlichen Gr��en,
Anita,
vom Class 1 Casino Support Team

English translation:

Hello

Unfortunately I must inform you that your account has been closed. As we
looked at your statistic we discovered that you are playing in a way that
is in our Terms & Conditions called a bonusabuser.
Therefore we will take the following steps according to our Terms &
Conditions. You will get you deposit back, your winings will be voided and
your casino account will be blocked.

If you should have any question, please contact us via E-mail, which you send
to [email protected].


Kind regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team

I have wrote back the following mail:
German original:

Hallo,

Zitieren Sie bitte aus Ihren Terms & Conditions, jene Regel, die klar
und objektiv definiert, auf welcher Weise man spielen darf und auf
welcher Weise man nicht spielen darf.

Ich habe den Bonus in keiner Weise missbraucht. Ich hatte lediglich viel
Gl�ck, dass mein erster Einsatz in H�he von 100 Euro im Spiel "Penalty
Shootout" erfolgreich war. Danach spielte ich Spin A Win, aber niemals
mit "opposites bets", mit jedem Spiel ging ich das Risiko ein meinen
Einsatz in H�he von 44 Euro zu verlieren. Und tats�chlich hatte ich auch
einiges Geld verloren.

Erkl�ren Sie mir bitte, wo fand da der Bonus-Missbrauch statt? Gehen Sie
mit jedem Spieler so um, der etwas Gl�ck hatte? H�tte Sie mir die 75
Euro auch zur�ckerstattet, wenn ich verloren h�tte (was sehr
wahrscheinlich war bei "Penalty Shootout" mit einer Gewinnchance von nur
8,1% pro Schuss)?

Ich werde diesen Fall auf keinen Fall auf mich beruhen lassen! Wenn Sie
mir meinen Gewinn nicht zahlen, werde ich veranlassen, dass Ihr Casino
auf allen bekannten Blacklists (casinomeister.com, wizardofodds.com und
andere) erscheint. Au�erdem werde ich diesen Vorfall in diversen
deutsch- und englisch-sprachigen Foren bekannt machen. Ich werde auch
Playtech informieren.

English translation:

Hello,

please quote from your Terms & Conditions the rule which defines in a clear
and objective way how I may play and how I don't.

I don't abused your bonus in any way. I just was lucky that I have won my first
100 Euro bet in the game "Penalty Shootout". After that I have played "Spin A
Win" but never with "opposites bets", with every game I have taken the risk to
lose my bet of 44 Euro. Actually I have lost some money with it.

Please explain to me how I have abused your bonus? Do you treat every player
in the same way who is lucky? Would you also refund my 75 Euro if I lost
(which was likely to happen in the game "Penalty Shootout" with a winging
chance of only 8,1% per shot)?

I will not tolerate this behaviour. If you don't pay my winning I will
initiate that you casino will be put on all famous blacklists
(casinomeister.com, wizardofodds.com and others). Furthermore I will make
this known on german and english forums. I also will inform Playtech.

Then I have got the following response:
German original:

Hallo

Hier ist der von Ihnen verlangte Abschnitt (zu finden auf

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"If it appears that a player is participating in strategies that _the
casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive_, the casino reserves
the right to _revoke all winnings_ on any account/s opened and _all
cash-ins will be cancelled_ where the play has been deemed abusive.
Furthermore, abusing player accounts may be terminated immediately and
the players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving
further promotional offers at the Casino."

Wir m�chten uns bei Ihnen f�r die Aufkl�rung herzlichst bedanken, m�ssen
Sie aber darauf hinweisen, das wir lange genug im Gl�cksspielgesch�ft
dabei sind, um Bonushunters zu erkennen und werden gegen sie auch die
notwendigen Schritte unternehmen.
Weiterhin, wir kennen Foren und Blacklists wie z.B. casinomeister.com wo
sich die wirklich guten Casinospieler aufhalten und sind uns auch sehr
gut bewu�t dass Bonushunter und Bonusabuser auf den Foren besonders
unbeliebt, ja, sogar unerw�nscht sind.

Wir hoffen dass Sie sich im klaren dar�ber sind, dass es auch wir nicht
auf uns beruhen lassen k�nnen und werden alle m�glichen Mittel gegen
Bonushunter und/oder Bonusabuser unternehmen. Deshalb werden wir
nat�rlich auf jeden derartigen Beitrag antworten und die Sache richtig
stellen, wie auch Playtech informieren (auch das ist auf der "Promotion
Rules" Seite erkl�rt). So wird Ihnen das Spielen in allen Casinos von
Playtech verweigert.


Gru�,
Anita,
vom Class 1 Casino Unterst�tzungsteam

English translation:

Hello

Here is the requested clause (form

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"If it appears that a player is participating in strategies that _the
casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive_, the casino reserves
the right to _revoke all winnings_ on any account/s opened and _all
cash-ins will be cancelled_ where the play has been deemed abusive.
Furthermore, abusing player accounts may be terminated immediately and
the players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving
further promotional offers at the Casino."

We thank you for your clearing, but we must inform you that we are working
long enough in the gambling business to recognize bonushunters and we will
do the necessary steps against them. Furthermore we know forums and blacklist
like casinomeister.com which are visited by realy good players and we know
that bonushunters and bonusabuser are very obnoxious, even unwanted in this
forums.

We hope you know that we will not tolerate it and we will use any possible
instrument against bonushunter and bonusabuser. Therefore we will respond
on any statement to correct it and we also will inform Playtech (which is
explained in our "Promotion Rules" page). That way you will be banned from
any Plactech casinos.


Regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team

Has someone an idea how I can still get my winning?

Someone from a other forum told me, that this casino was called "Maxima Casino" and is now renamed to "Class 1 Casino" with the same staff. To protect other players I recommend to update the list on https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/.

 

[solarrocker]

I would first try Pitch a Bitch and see how far you can go with this.

 

[hakapuku]

No surprise for me here. 1class casino is a former Maxima casino. And Maxima casino used this same method to confiscate the winnings from online players. Offcourse, their reasoning is absurd. What they actually call bonus abuse is the fact that somebody got lucky to win at their casino.They don't like you when you win. The problem here is that PLAYTECH don't care about this dirty tricks of their licensees. Unfortunately , I don't think anybody will help you here. Hope I am wrong.

 

[sdaddy]

We hope you know that we will not tolerate it and we will use any possible
instrument against bonushunter and bonusabuser. Therefore we will respond
on any statement to correct it and we also will inform Playtech (which is
explained in our "Promotion Rules" page). That way you will be banned from
any Plactech casinos.


Regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team

VERY interesting. Sure enough, you find this remarkable admission in their T&Cs:

The Casino reserves the right to bar any promotion abusers from receiving any further promotions at CLASS 1 CASINO, as well as the right to pass on any information regarding known abusers to Playtech. This will ensure that they will be barred from promotions at all Casinos utilizing the services of Playtech.

I think that just reignited the debate over whether Playtech itself maintains a blacklist of "bonus abusers."

 

[hakapuku]

this is soooo ridiculous this bonus hunting/abusing stuff! First, casinos like 1class do hunt for players seducing them with biggest bonus offering. My email box is full of 1class casino's emails inviting me to play and win with their bonus. And when you join them and win somehow - then you ,player, become a greedy bonus hunter and even a bonus abuser! And then - no mercy!

 

[Peter@C1C]

Hello,


I would like to present the Class 1 Casino stance on this matter.

First some general thoughts about bonus abuse. Unfortunately it is present in the industry and it hurts casinos and genuine casino players. A lot about this subject is also available in different online sources. Most casinos also defend themselves with certain T&C clauses that give the casino the right to decide (in its sole discretion) to ban the user or even refuse to pay any winnings deemed to be won in that abusive manner.
As I saw criticism and speculation about these rules in this forum threads I checked out some other casinos to see if they have similar terms. I have glanced through the T&C of 5 Playtech casinos and about 10 Microgaming. All Playtech casinos I checked had almost identical clauses as Class 1 Casino has. Also I found similar clauses in at least half the checked Microgaming casinos. In some cases the clauses were not so direct, but I believe they are there to ensure against such abuses. All the casinos I have checked are found on Casinomeister Accredited Online Casinos list. Therefore I submit to you that these clauses by themselves are not present solely in Class 1 Casino, but are in fact almost an industry standard.

Of course we understand that customers do not like to see these rules and even more see them being enforced. That is also the reason why we do not use them unless we are completely confident that we have identified a real bonus abuser. Flagging a person as bonus abuser is a harsh claim and it usually has negative consequences for the casino in form of bad publicity. But sometimes it has to be done. Successful bonus abuse usually leads to more bonus abuse and sometimes even fraud. This happens as abusive players move from one casino to another to claim and abuse just the best signup offer. Once the (otherwise long) list of casinos comes to an end, such customers often start creating duplicate accounts. In some cases the bonus abusers that work in a ring have even sufficient computer knowledge to avoid duplicate account detection for a long time.

So once again in short. Class 1 Casino (as most other online casinos) has the means to refuse to pay in case of bonus abuse, but we do not use this unless the abuse really happened.


Now about this case in particular.

The customer was flagged abusive by our fraud department due to the way he played his signup bonus of 300%. We would not disclose his game history here, but since the customer already did it... He bet the first bet to the maximum allowed by our settings at that time and a third of his entire bankroll on a high risk bet. He knew his odds and knew that with using the same strategy in multiple casinos the odds are actually on his side. Genuine customers just don't bet one third of their balance gained with using first signup match bonus. This is usually a bigger than usual player balance since the first bonus is more attractive. All players following bets were placed in a way that minimizes the player loss and maximizes the wagering played out. Player has exceeded the minimal wagering requirement for a minimal amount. One spin less on the game and it would not be enough. CM forum members can decide for themselves if this play was played with the intention of abusing our bonus. We have decided this was the case.

And the developments after our denial were more than enough to convince us of this.

He did not update this thread with later correspondences. Both emails he posted were from 29.8.2008. On 30.8.2008 he sent us another email. This one had a list of over 50 casino forums and blacklists. He wrote that he is giving us this last chance to pay his winnings or he will post about us in all this forums. He also mentioned that he will take even more drastic measures if we do not comply. We naturally answered that we refuse to be bullied and that we will not change our position. Since it is mostly just links to forum sites I will not post this email here, but if you wish me to, I can.

We would otherwise not post our email correspondences in forums, but since the customer did it, we do not see why not use this ourselves.
The following original email in German and its translation that I will provide are in our opinion without a doubt proofs that we have made the right decision regarding this user and it also shows why we will not reverse our decision no matter what. I think the email speaks for itself and needs not much comment.

Original German mail from him to [email protected] on 31.8.2008 at 4:38PM (mere 2h before this thread was opened)

Hallo,

ich bin dabei Vorbereitungen f�r die DDoS-Attacke gegen Ihren Web- und
Game-Server durchzuf�hren. Ich m�chte darauf hinweisen, dass das
verbannen der IP-Range meines ISPs keinerleit Schutz gegen die DDoS
(Distributed Denial-of-Service) Attacke bietet. Mir stehen hunderte von
Servern mit starker Anbindung zur Verf�gung. Ihr Web- und Game-Server
wird unter der Last von mehreren Hunderttausend Anfragen pro Sekunde
zusammenbrechen. Der Angriff beginnt sp�testens in 48 Stunden und wird
sich �ber 3 Tage hinwegziehen. Danach werde ich Ihnen nochmals die
Gelegenheit geben Ihr Schuld in H�he von 1065 Euro zu zahlen. Bei
weiterer Weigerung werde ich den Angriff fortsetzen. Sollten Sie sich
dazu bereit erkl�ren Ihre Schild jetzt sofort zu begleichen, werde ich
von den Angriff absehen.

English translation of mail from him to [email protected] on 31.8.2008 at 4:38PM (mere 2h before this thread was opened)

Hi,

I have prepared for my DDoS-Attack against your Web- and Game-Server. I want to point out that banning the IP-Address of my ISP is not going to provide you any safety against the DDoS (Distributed Denial-of-Service) attack. I have hundreds of servers with a strong connection at hand. Your Web- and Game-Server will breakdown under the burden of hundreds of thousands of requests per second. The attack will start not later than in 48 hours and will last for 3 consecutive days. After that I will give you another chance to pay your debt of �1065. In case of further denial I will continue with the attack. If you are ready to pay your debt right away, I will refrain from the attack.

 

[winbig]

Hey,

Do you have a SPECIFIC rule in your T&C stating that a player cannot bet 1/3rd+ of his bankroll on one hand/slot pull/whatever?

Is a player supposed to guess at what you deem is bonus abuse?

and if he did send that email regarding the DDoS attack, I'd send that to the authorities rather than posting it here.

 

[suzecat]

Bryan, our resident German-speaking expert............., just for chits and giggles, would you tell us if the translations above are accurate? Not that I believe they are bogus, I'm just a skeptic

 

[sdaddy]

Do you have a SPECIFIC rule in your T&C stating that a player cannot bet 1/3rd+ of his bankroll on one hand/slot pull/whatever?

Is a player supposed to guess at what you deem is bonus abuse

Exactly. In a case like this, the casino wants to have it both ways: on the one hand, keep a vague "bonus abuse" policy that gives them unlimited discretion, but, on the other hand, assert that only clear-cut cases of abuse would be used as reason to confiscate winnings.

If it's so clear to the casino what constitutes abuse, then it shouldn't be a problem at all to come up with SPECIFIC rules that prohibit it.

 

[lauram]

I really think there is more to this then what we have been told about.
If he really sent that email to the casino it kinda shows he has more then one computer with different isp numbers to open up more then one account.
If this is the case then i can understand how the casino would look at it as bonus abuse if a player opens up account after account and makes a single bet with all his chips he at one point is bound to make a huge hit and finish playthrough and cashout.

 

[bb28]

Would a player who had a real legitimate complaint threaten this kind of dirty deed?
I don't think so...........
Quote:
Hi,

I have prepared for my DDoS-Attack against your Web- and Game-Server. I want to point out that banning the IP-Address of my ISP is not going to provide you any safety against the DDoS (Distributed Denial-of-Service) attack. I have hundreds of servers with a strong connection at hand. Your Web- and Game-Server will breakdown under the burden of hundreds of thousands of requests per second. The attack will start not later than in 48 hours and will last for 3 consecutive days. After that I will give you another chance to pay your debt of �1065. In case of further denial I will continue with the attack. If you are ready to pay your debt right away, I will refrain from the attack.

 

[RobWin]

Winbig & Sdaddy already said what I was thinking on this matter regardless of any threating letter or not, the letter has only secondary relevance. I want to see answers from the casino rep to Winbig & Sdaddy...

 

[jetset]

I agree with SDaddy and Winbig's thought on posts 4 and 9 here - there's way too much use of the lawyer's "we can do what we like and our decision is final" instead of properly framed T&Cs.

If the player gambled within the T&Cs, then pay him and then ban him - don't take his money and then try to wriggle out from the casino obligation when he wins by screwing around with this ridiculous "bonus abuser" scam.

But the player should be careful in making the threats that he has allegedly made - cyber-extortion, intimidation and terrorism are taken very seriously by European authorities and he could well find himself in a world of you-know-what just for threatening to deploy this sort of criminal activity.

 

[GrandMaster]

Bryan, our resident German-speaking expert............., just for chits and giggles, would you tell us if the translations above are accurate? Not that I believe they are bogus, I'm just a skeptic

The German text is correct German apart from a couple of typos. It is clearly not a computer translation. If this stuff genuine, then this guy must be a graduate of the Adolf Hitler School of Diplomacy.

 

[chuchu59]

Peter@CIC,

For a start stop spamming me. Over the past few months, I have been spammed literally every day asking me to register there and in several languages too. Even if I could play at Playtech-powered casinos, do you think I would bother with a casino who has sent me more than 200 spam mails?

 

[Edward D. Wood]

any updates here?
i would be more than curious what happened with the planed DDOS attack.
markus, just be careful...

after reading this whole story. Hmmm..YES, he is right. the problem is (when he is a serious one. and not a bad-boy-bonus-somehting). what can he do to get his money/winning??

let them eat their own tactics. i have really no mercy with those crooks.
sounds rather brutala and subversive, but pfffff...what about stealing money from customers?

just my 2 cents.

 

[me_and_ed]

I know this is an older thread however it really chokes me when rogue casino's change there name, formerly Maxima which was known to pull these tactics and had ridiculous bonus terms prey on uninformed people and continue to steal money without any form of penalty whatsoever. Tell me on this earth what other businesses can operate and get away stuff like this. It is such a leap of faith depositing these days.

 

[Jasminebed]

Bonus Hunter?

I am sick and tired of casinos singing the Bonus Abuser song. If you open a duplicate account, that is clearly against every T&C I have ever read.

Casinos are more than free to ban a player from further promotions, or even block their accounts if they wish, but should not be free to DENY winnings based on play allowed by their rules and by their software.

As for Bonus Hunters, I don't have to hunt far...I get lots of spam email offers.

Casinos spend a lot of time, effort and money promoting their bonuses, paying affiliates and seeking high search engine listings to promote these bonuses. Bonus "hunter" is a joke. If there is only one bonus per group, fine, list them clearly. Check a new player against your database before granting a bonus.

Do not accuse a player of "hunting" for something you make so easy to find.

 

[1819]

this all can be avoided by simply lowering the bet limits when a bonus is being used. it is the fault of the casino. they took a 1/3rd bankroll bet and the player got lucky. they would not refund his bet if he lost. fraudster or not the casino took a legitimate wager and should make good. if you want to close the account for multiple accounts, or some other decent reason, then that is fine. that is not the reason given. the "we dont like your play style" is crap.

 

[Markus]

I still didn't get my winning. I also didn't perform any kind of DDOS attack, but it is true that I have made this threat. I know now that making this threat wasn't a very good idea, but at this time I felt so helpless and thought this would be my only chance to get my money.

If I had known earlier about the PAB service, I would have chosen definitely this way instead of making threats. But I suppose now it's too late for a PAB, because too much time has passed since this event, isn't it? Furthermore I have only little hope that a PAB would help me here, because in the past Maxima Casino seems always to ignore the Casinomeister.

It's too bad that Casinomeister's Rouge List isn't completely up-to-date, because I have always checked casino blacklists like this before I have signed up at any casino. This isn't meant as criticism but if Class 1 Casino would there be listed as a rebranded Maxima Casino I would have never played there.

 

[cyprean]

I understand your point there.

While the threats you made were childish, they also told that you were in a desperate situation trying to find any solution to get your money. On the other hand the casino which put you in to the desperate situation in the first place has now another excuse not to pay you.


I agree that the Rogue list should be updated more. A lot of players check out the Rogue list first before playing at a casino, and if any rogue casino isn't mentioned there the players are heading for trouble.

Recently I read a thread where there was a warning about Casino Las Vegas posted by Max. Still Casino Las Vegas wasn't on the rogue list. I think they should be. EDIT: They now are. Good stuff CM&Max!


Back to the OP's point: even though your threats were childish, I think the OP should be paid. I understand that Class1Casino was reborn from the old and rogue Maxima casino and don't like to pay out. Their strategy is pretty obvious; give out big bonuses that hook the losing gamblers, and if anyone happens to win big has there been abuse or not the payment and possible confiscation of winnings is decided by the casino alone. Win win for the casino. Rogue material.

 

[tofu23]

I agree that the Rogue list should be updated more. A lot of players check out the Rogue list first before playing at a casino, and if any rogue casino isn't mentioned there the players are heading for trouble.

I can't see how anyone can stay on top of a 'rogue list'. There is simply too many thieving online casino rogues out there to effectively monitor.

Much more effective is a recommended or accredited list. You can police that with uncompromising standards.

But in the end I don't put much faith in 'accredited' or 'rogue' lists compiled by affiliates making a living off me losing money. I listen to the collective voice of active online players as to where and where not to play.

 

[jetset]

Back to the OP's point: even though your threats were childish, I think the OP should be paid. I understand that Class1Casino was reborn from the old and rogue Maxima casino and don't like to pay out. Their strategy is pretty obvious; give out big bonuses that hook the losing gamblers, and if anyone happens to win big has there been abuse or not the payment and possible confiscation of winnings is decided by the casino alone. Win win for the casino. Rogue material.

And of course when the current branding on the casino has been thoroughly besmirched by bad conduct and no-pays, why, the operator can always just rename the damned thing!

 

[soflat]

The player has threatened criminal actions and he admits to setting up the hardware to carry it out, so there is a chance that he has already been involved in such activity. Now that he thinks he might get some sympathy he's all like: 'sorry I didn't really mean it' and stuff. This is one scary dude.

 

[The Dude]

....But in the end I don't put much faith in 'accredited' or 'rogue' lists compiled by affiliates making a living off me losing money. ..

Oh, now suddenly you are my accountant and CFO?

You should reread the forum rules concerning troll-like posts.

 

[thelawnet]

Just got spammed by these people.

Why are they not on the rogue list?

This is clear rogue behaviour.

They have a long list of excluded games, a player chooses the best option out of those that remains and he still doesn't get paid.

And because there are a dozen players busting to every one that wins playing this way, they get to keep the winnings of all the losers, and when a winner slips through and gets lucky, they take his money too.

They are offering a 300% sticky bonus, pretty much unprecendented these days, the only way they can afford to do so is by not paying their winners.

R-O-G-U-E

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just got spammed by these people.

Why are they not on the rogue list?

This is clear rogue behaviour.

They have a long list of excluded games, a player chooses the best option out of those that remains and he still doesn't get paid.

And because there are a dozen players busting to every one that wins playing this way, they get to keep the winnings of all the losers, and when a winner slips through and gets lucky, they take his money too.

They are offering a 300% sticky bonus, pretty much unprecendented these days, the only way they can afford to do so is by not paying their winners.

R-O-G-U-E

Well, they ASSUME that the OP is blasting his way through many casinos with this tactic, and winning overall. THIS seems to justify confiscation of winnings. The tactic described by the OP fits the description of "advantage play", but a 12/1 shot is nowhere near as certain as the usual evens double-up bet using the entire bankroll. It does seem that any strategy that succeeds is SUBSEQUENTLY, and "at our discresion" retrospectively deemed "abusive play", and winnings confiscated. The subsequent "grind" was the giveaway though, as a genuine "big hitter" would continue to place chunky sized bets, and perhaps try to "ride" the luck a bit.

However, this tactic is still sufficiently coverable by a specific set of terms and conditions, and a simple one would be banning bets of more than x% of starting bankroll on any singe event, AND covering more than y% of possible outcomes on any single event. This suggestion would have been good enough to outlaw the play of the OP, and since he would have specifically seen this as being "not allowed" would have either played differently, or tried elsewhere, however, C1C would have lost the chance to "nab" an "evil bonus abuser" by giving them a no-win situation, where they could either lose, or have their deposit returned. This is simply C1C being an "advantage casino", as they know full well there are scores of bonus hunters out there, so set the bait (300% SUB), and wait for them to bite, and then look to keep the money from the 11 in 12 failed attempts, and refunding the deposits of the 1 in 12 that win & grind out WR. This gives the casino quite an advantage, and one they would not have if they were specific in what was, or was not, seen as "genuine play".

Here is the really interesting bit:-

The Casino reserves the right to bar any promotion abusers from receiving any further promotions at CLASS 1 CASINO, as well as the right to pass on any information regarding known abusers to Playtech. This will ensure that they will be barred from promotions at all Casinos utilizing the services of Playtech.

This is the clearest description that I have ever seen that this blacklist is specifically a Playtech one, rather than an "industry database", and that the route by which this information reaches this database is via Playtech.

For the rep - are you aware that, according to Playtech, no such database exists, and you are SERIOUSLY damaging the credibility of Playtech in suggesting otherwise? Is this just a threat without substance, to scare off "bonus abusers"?

IF this is complete BS, since we are assured that no such database exists, i.e. one specifically for Playtech casinos, and OPERATED by Playtech, then Playtech should be all over this outfit to DEMAND the removal, and REBUTTAL, of this damaging statement that has implicated Playtech in having direct involvment in operating a database of "bonus abusers".

OP could even test this out. Open an account at a COMPLETELY UNRELATED Playtech casino, and THEN ask support to check whether or not he is eligible for bonuses. Perhaps give them a hint, as they may not actually check, say the question is because there was some trouble with another casino over bonuses in the past.

Unfortunately, threats of DDos attacks from the OP have seriously undermined his credibility, and chances of receiving a resolution, HOWEVER, the Meister has not banned him based on this, even though he has admitted he did indeed make such threats.

 

[Markus]

OP could even test this out. Open an account at a COMPLETELY UNRELATED Playtech casino, and THEN ask support to check whether or not he is eligible for bonuses. Perhaps give them a hint, as they may not actually check, say the question is because there was some trouble with another casino over bonuses in the past.

After this event I have signed up at several other Playtech casinos and received their bonuses with no problems whatsoever. I haven't ask the support everytime if I'm eligible for the bonus or not, but I guess if there would be such a database they would check it before they give me any bonus.

 

[vinylweatherman]

After this event I have signed up at several other Playtech casinos and received their bonuses with no problems whatsoever. I haven't ask the support everytime if I'm eligible for the bonus or not, but I guess if there would be such a database they would check it before they give me any bonus.

Looks like an idle threat then, however, the issue of whether or not there is a database of "bonus abusers" is hotly debated, and when casinos have such terms, it lands Playtech in the proverbial, especially so this one, as it states very clearly this is a "Playtech database" rather than the generic "industry database".

As for checking it, more likely this will happen when you CASH OUT, rather than when you are credited with the bonus, so you are NOT out of danger by any means, and you could find yourself faced yet again with confiscation of winnings. If this ever happens, ask why, it SHOULD relate to your play at the casino in question, even though any answer will be vague. Only when you cash out from a Playtech SUB can you be sure this was a bluff on the part of C1C in their terms, perhaps as I said, to scare off the "evil bonus abusers".

 

[Markus]

As for checking it, more likely this will happen when you CASH OUT, rather than when you are credited with the bonus, so you are NOT out of danger by any means, and you could find yourself faced yet again with confiscation of winnings.

I have just looked into my statistical records and I have counted 49 Playtech withdrawals since then. In all of them a bonus was involved and none of them were confiscated.

 

[thelawnet]

Well, they ASSUME that the OP is blasting his way through many casinos with this tactic, and winning overall. THIS seems to justify confiscation of winnings.

Of course it doesn't. If he broke a specific rule, they can confiscate his winnings. The fact is they choose to offer a 300% sticky bonus, which is likely to attract advantage players, and if they don't want those players to play they need to specify what it is that they are and are not allowed to do, rather than simply confiscating their money when they win and keeping it when they lose.

The tactic described by the OP fits the description of "advantage play", but a 12/1 shot is nowhere near as certain as the usual evens double-up bet using the entire bankroll. It does seem that any strategy that succeeds is SUBSEQUENTLY, and "at our discresion" retrospectively deemed "abusive play", and winnings confiscated. The subsequent "grind" was the giveaway though, as a genuine "big hitter" would continue to place chunky sized bets, and perhaps try to "ride" the luck a bit.

However, this tactic is still sufficiently coverable by a specific set of terms and conditions

Exactly, why make excuses for them?

Unfortunately, threats of DDos attacks from the OP have seriously undermined his credibility, and chances of receiving a resolution, HOWEVER, the Meister has not banned him based on this, even though he has admitted he did indeed make such threats.

They were criminally stupid, but it doesn't affect the casinos rogue response to his play. We are here to root out crooked casinos, not players who overreact when they get ripped off by crooked casinos.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I have just looked into my statistical records and I have counted 49 Playtech withdrawals since then. In all of them a bonus was involved and none of them were confiscated.

So the "database" threat is BS.

Of course it doesn't. If he broke a specific rule, they can confiscate his winnings. The fact is they choose to offer a 300% sticky bonus, which is likely to attract advantage players, and if they don't want those players to play they need to specify what it is that they are and are not allowed to do, rather than simply confiscating their money when they win and keeping it when they lose.



Exactly, why make excuses for them?



They were criminally stupid, but it doesn't affect the casinos rogue response to his play. We are here to root out crooked casinos, not players who overreact when they get ripped off by crooked casinos.

Agreed, he broke no rule, and the fact that 49 other Playtech casinos had no problems with his style does tend to show that it was more about C1C objecting to him winning off the bonus, rather than a particular style of play.

He DOES admit to going through 49 Playtech casinos though, so I would think this is a player who plays to WIN, rather than to p1$$ their dollars away by donating more of a big hit than is necessary back to the casino.

Referring to him as an advantage player is not making an escuse for them, as they have no term that specifically excludes advantage players from playing, nor one that specifies what advantage play is (other than "we can make it up as we go along").

 

[LinkinFart]

Some things need to be said

First, sorry for longer post but reasoning in this thread is not on the right track from my point of view.

About DDoS attack, You made me laugh with that threat, really. Only thing casinos fear are their license providers and/or government institutions if casino owning company is registered in some developed state.

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive. Maybe person who wrote the T&C of Class 1 casino was too lazy to quote every method of abusive play but obviously other casinos consider this kind of play as illegal if You play with bonus. If You play with your own money no one can say this is foul play or illegal which brings me to an interesting point.

Why did You take that bonus in the first place? If You wanted to get lucky You could do it without the bonus, smaller bets but still it is not the bonus money and you have no wagering to meet before cashing out. Just 2 days ago I had some money left in Moneybookers and decided to play for a while on one slot I like. There was a bonus available but I did not took it and played that slot for maybe 5 minutes and when I saw that slot is not in the good mood I cashed out exactly the same amount. I`m sure casino did not like this at all, because of the fees, but it is allowed. My money, my decision to gamble and there is nothing they can do stop that payment. I could have won a lot and lost entire deposit in those 5 minutes.

I play at Class 1 casino and have never had issues like this and their support representative even STOPPED me from making a deposit and receive a bonus when she realized that T&C changed for my country and I had to do additional wagering on some bonus offer I was going to take.

Thanks for reading and again sorry for long one.

 

[Jasminebed]

First, sorry for longer post but reasoning in this thread is not on the right track from my point of view.

About DDoS attack, You made me laugh with that threat, really. Only thing casinos fear are their license providers and/or government institutions if casino owning company is registered in some developed state.

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive. Maybe person who wrote the T&C of Class 1 casino was too lazy to quote every method of abusive play but obviously other casinos consider this kind of play as illegal if You play with bonus. If You play with your own money no one can say this is foul play or illegal which brings me to an interesting point.

Why did You take that bonus in the first place? If You wanted to get lucky You could do it without the bonus, smaller bets but still it is not the bonus money and you have no wagering to meet before cashing out. Just 2 days ago I had some money left in Moneybookers and decided to play for a while on one slot I like. There was a bonus available but I did not took it and played that slot for maybe 5 minutes and when I saw that slot is not in the good mood I cashed out exactly the same amount. I`m sure casino did not like this at all, because of the fees, but it is allowed. My money, my decision to gamble and there is nothing they can do stop that payment. I could have won a lot and lost entire deposit in those 5 minutes.

I play at Class 1 casino and have never had issues like this and their support representative even STOPPED me from making a deposit and receive a bonus when she realized that T&C changed for my country and I had to do additional wagering on some bonus offer I was going to take.

Thanks for reading and again sorry for long one.

Well, this thread is a little out of date, but I do feel you have the wrong handle on part of your reasoning.

What Terms and Conditions apply at ANOTHER casino have NO bearing on the terms and conditions on the OP's contractual relationship with Class 1 Casino. If a casino is "too lazy" to write terms and conditions that clearly define play that is disallowed, that is their problem, and they are obligated to pay players that did not contravene their stipulations. A casino may change their terms and conditions for future players if a situation of advantage play presents them with problems.

 

[Markus]

About not paying Your winnings and all those that say this was not bonus abusing. Here is a quote from T&C of another casino, dont think forum rules allow me to say which one:

"13. Other practices of playing behaviour which may lead to the casino withholding cashins and/or confiscating all winnings include, but are not limited to, placing single bets whereby the wager consists of the majority of the total available balance and the bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance. Should the casino deem that practices such as this have been utilized, the casino reserves the right to withhold any cashins and/or confiscate all winnings.".

1. Even if such a rule had existed at Class 1 Casino I would not have broken it because I have only bet 1/3 of my total available balance and not the majority.
2. I have no problem with such a rule, I know some MGs who have it. In this case I play a low house edge game like Classic Blackjack and always bet 1/4 of my bankroll until I hit my target or bust. I still have a good advantage therefore such a rule doesn't really help the casino.

I have accounts in 139+ casinos, good portion of them are on Playtech and I never had problem similar to Yours.

I have also a lot of casino accounts and Class 1 Casino was the only casino who have confiscated my winnings because of my play style.

This is not the only casino which see this kind of playing tactic with first deposit bonuses or bonuses of any kind as abusive.

Sure, but those who do not define in their T&C what tactics are abusive but confiscate winnings anyway are rightly called rogue casinos.

Why did You take that bonus in the first place?

Because I like to have an advantage. If you play only for fun thats fine, but don't force your attitude on me.

 

[LinkinFart]

I posted that rule from another casino just to show that this kind of play with bonus money is deemed abusive, read that rule entirely it is not about single bet but significant portion of the balance, 1/3 is signigicant portion. Class 1 have this covered in their T&C but not in such explicit form:

"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive. Furthermore, accounts of players participating in abusive strategies will be terminated upon recognition.".

When I said lazy, I meant to say that person writing T&C didnt think ahead and wrote every single method instead of just putting down generalized version referring to same problem.

I did not force any attitude on You. It is a fact that if You played like that with your money without a bonus, winnings would be yours. If You dont like that fact thats your problem not mine.

Look at the rogue section and read what other casinos have done to get into rogue pit.

It is little outdated but found a link to this forum thread elsewhere and just felt a need to put down my 2. I guess DDoS attack approach failed so its forum posting time now for OP.

EDIT: Next time when You know something is forbidden in other casinos and there is a possibility that it falls under some generalized rule it might be a good idea to email support before you take some offer and play. It will save you time and money. I do that and dont have problems like you do.

 

[Markus]

I posted that rule from another casino just to show that this kind of play with bonus money is deemed abusive, read that rule entirely it is not about single bet but significant portion of the balance, 1/3 is signigicant portion.

Obviously you haven't read that rule entirely.
It says, winnings may be voided if
1. Single Bet > Total balance / 2
AND
2. Bonus balance contributing to a significant portion of that balance
No. 2 is always true if using a 300% bonus, therefore only No. 1 is relevant.

Class 1 have this covered in their T&C but not in such explicit form: "Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive. Furthermore, accounts of players participating in abusive strategies will be terminated upon recognition.".

How can you say this rule is a less explicit form of the rule from the other casino? I don't see the connection. All I see is a rule saying "We can do whatever we want and our decision is final.". Every strategy can be interpreted in "Class 1 Casino's sole discretion" as abusive. Even minor stakes slots playing.

Look at the rogue section and read what other casinos have done to get into rogue pit.

There are casinos in the rogue section for the reason that they have confiscated winnings from advantage players.

It is a fact that if You played like that with your money without a bonus, winnings would be yours. If You dont like that fact thats your problem not mine.

I wouldn't do that for sure. I don't like high variance and if I don't need it to improve my player edge I try to avoid it wherever it is possible.

so its forum posting time now for OP

What are you talking about? I have only posted my problem 10 months ago in the Casinomeister forum and nowhere else. (Edit: Sorry, I forgot kasinoforum.com also 10 months ago, but nowhere else)

Next time when You know something is forbidden in other casinos and there is a possibility that it falls under some generalized rule it might be a good idea to email support before you take some offer and play. It will save you time and money. I do that and dont have problems like you do.

It is not my job to validate the Casino's T&C. I expect that the T&C are accurate.
I have a better time and money saving tip: Avoid rogue casinos like Class 1 Casino at all costs.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thinking has moved on since this came up. Even words like "significant" are still too flexible, now, a well written term has to be specific, perhaps taking the form "no bet greater than xx% of your starting balance may be wagered......."

The casino rep also managed to shoot themselves in the foot (I didn't spot it before). They said that the bet was "within the limits they had set". So the casino had specifically set a maximum allowable bet within the software, so surely this limit itself becomes a "term and condition", and if the player is able to select and bet $xxx, then the implication is that the terms allow it.

While it was not helpful to threaten the DDos attack, the casino THEMSELVES resorts to the same kind of tactic with that total BULLSHIT term that THREATENS the player with having their information handed over to Playtech for their "bonus abuser database" (which only exists in magic fairy land it seems), which will ENSURE the player will never see another Playtech bonus again.

If C1C didn't want players betting $100 on Penalty Shootout, they shouldn't have SET the limit as high as $100.

When we have the abundant SPAM for these bonuses, the casino could be accused of running an unfair "honeytrap" scheme, where players are lured in by offers they cannot miss (unless they don't use email), and the casino can ENSURE they make a profit by weeding out enough winners to balance the books. Subjective terms are great for this, they can move the definitions around depending on how good their "hold" has been that month.

I consider nearly ALL Playtech casinos rogue. Since this incident, we have seen two MAJOR incidents, BOTH involving Playtech casinos, BOTH who received a progressive payout IN FULL from Playtech, and in BOTH cases some of the money "fell off the shovel" in transit to the player. This kind of thing goes beyond rogue, it is worthy of a criminal investigation since the money has ended up in the pockets of people who were not entitled to it.

NO "regulator" has stepped in to slap down the two casinos involved (one escaped by being sold on, but leaving it's liabilities behind), Playtech seem to have washed their hands of the whole thing, and this makes me feel that Playtech casinos are pretty dangerous places to play. Only the limited number of accredited Playtech casinos can be trusted, but I still can't bring myself to play at one of them.

C1C should define what they consider to be too large a wager, it is NOT "rocket science" to come up with a specific percentage, leaving the player knowing EXACTLY what bets are permitted, and which are not.

 

[Kevin@Class1]

Hey everyone, my name is Kevin and I am a representative of Class 1 Casino.

As vinylweatherman stated, the thinking has moved on a lot in the past year or so. Competitive casinos are paying more attention to the players' feedback and vague, undefined terms of use are one of the things that are slowly becoming a thing of the past.

We are trying hard to prove our honesty and fair intentions from the beginning of our operation and we are also trying to be up-to-date with the happening in the industry. Especially in the last half year we really opened our ears to players and affiliates and getting feedback on what could or should be improved.

One of the cases that were discussed a great deal by our casino management was also the "unclear terms" matter. We still insist on the fact that we didn't do anything wrong in Markus' case, however, we do acknowledge that we did a mistake by making our terms of use too vague and non-descriptive and by this caused some unnecessary anger which should be avoided in the first place.

Our gaming team has been working in the past month on a T&C update package. We were preparing the update for the middle of August, combined with the presentation of new casino games, but due to the Casinomeister's recent "Rogue-ization" of Class 1 Casino (without any prior notice), we decided to step in and publish the package immediately.

Now the term:
"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings made by playing strategies that Class 1 Casino in its sole discretion deems abusive,"

has been replaced by:
"Class 1 Casino reserves the right to cancel withdrawal requests and withhold winnings in cases of bonus-abusive play, which is defined as:
Player is creating multiple Real Money accounts with similar or different account information (also known as duplicate accounts) in order to receive several First Deposit Bonuses.
Player makes a first deposit and is placing bets higher than 50% of his first deposit amount."

By stating only the particular cases of abuse we unfortunately open ourselves to the abusers that will always try new methods and will be one step ahead, but we are willing to take this risk in order to show that we are not hard-headed fools who look away from the community and that we will always try to look from the players' side too.

This is just a first step towards making the terms of use more clear and we will be paying full attention to all additional comments regarding this matter or our casino in general.

I am looking forward to your comments.

 

[maxd]

Hello Kevin,

Max Drayman writing, I'm the Player Grievance Manager at Casinomeister.com which means that I handle the Pitch-A-Bitch section and help Bryan moderate the Complaints forums.

I don't know if you are aware but Class1Casino is currently on our blacklist: see the Rogue Pit, or look here "Maxima Casino - renamed Class1casino...".

If C1C is in the process of overhauling it's approach to player issues that's great! A demonstrable change in tactics and procedures would be most welcome.

Secondly, if you are to be the official representative for C1C you should let Bryan know. We have a I-Gaming Forum Reps page that you could be listed on if you contact him (send a Private Message via [profile]Casinomeister[/profile]).

Regards,
Max.

 

[The Dude]

...
Our gaming team has been working in the past month on a T&C update package. We were preparing the update for the middle of August, combined with the presentation of new casino games, but due to the Casinomeister's recent "Rogue-ization" of Class 1 Casino (without any prior notice), we decided to step in and publish the package immediately.
...

Hi Kevin - thanks for joining the forum.

The rogue pit entry had nothing to do with the issues pointed out in this thread, but due to your relationship with Maxima casino which went defunct some time ago. There were some unsettled player issues from them.

Sorry if there was no prior notice of getting tossed into the pit. But one of the reasons Maxima Casino was rogueified was because it was totally unresponsive our inquiries - hell, even Playtech had difficulty getting answers from them. If Class 1 Casino is related to Maxima, why would I take the time out to let you know you've been rogued??

Of course, if your casino has nothing to do with Maxima - I have no problem removing you from the pit. If you are related, then there are some issues that ought to be addressed - we can go from there.

 

[Kevin@Class1]

Hey Max, thanks for your quick reply, I really appreciate it.

I see that you already put me in the representative group, I actually did apply for this at signup.

Class 1 Casino simply cannot be put into the same basket as Maxima, we never had any payment dispute in our history. I am just writing you a private message to see your requirements to acknowledge us as a fair and honest casino.

We were neglecting casinomeister forum (we basically underestimated the forums in general) in the past, I will try to see that this doesn't happen again.

 

[The Dude]

Hey Max, thanks for your quick reply, I really appreciate it.

I see that you already put me in the representative group, I actually did apply for this at signup.

Actually, Max just oversees the complaints. I administer most everything else to include the member accounts.

Class 1 Casino simply cannot be put into the same basket as Maxima, we never had any payment dispute in our history. I am just writing you a private message to see your requirements to acknowledge us as a fair and honest casino...

But it can. How do you explain this?

Thank you for contacting Class 1 Casino Support.

I would like to inform you that Maxima Casino is no longer operating, therefor you are kindly invited to join our new Class 1 Casino, with the same support team and even better treatment. All you are required to do is just to click on the Maxima Casino icon and it will be automatically updated, so you will have an opportunity to experience a first class treatment right away.

Kindest regards,

Natasha Miller,

Class 1 Casino support team

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/class1-casino-scam-or-not.23731/

 

[big_mac]

Deposit bonus are not optional....

All deposits are subject to an automatic 10% deposit bonus (DB)...

Once received, DB cannot be undone.

In order to make a successful request to withdraw winnings.... must place in bets on allowed games 18 (eighteen) times the deposit plus deposit bonus amount....

allowed games are:-

Slot games (regular and progressive), all Asian games, all Arcade games (excluding Mini Roulette), Caribbean Stud poker, Let Them Ride poker, Pai Gow Poker, Red Dog poker and Tequila poker.

and..

Maximum withdrawal amount made with DB is 5000 for $

and it's even worse for UK players. Why would anybody play with those rules?

 

[coxwel]

i played a freechip with class1 once..

i went to livechat and asked for the wagering requirements, was told 99times

i then told the nice chatgirl thats a joke imho, she replied we have many many players cashing out from this bonus.. aight....any further comments?D

also the rogued shufflemasterlife which missed to pay me till today had just 20-25times wagering on their freechip, and that was high for a playtech...

a playthrough of 99times is only designed to never reach it...



cheers

coxwel

 

[jetset]

Yeah - those T&Cs appear designed to catch newbies who don't read T&Cs and are consequently in for some unpleasant surprises if they win.

 

[palapaisti]

Stay away, this is definately rogue casino. I played here on October 2008 and I have still not received my winnings.
I deposited 100EUR and got 300EUR bonus. I played only Caribbean Stud Poker with 2-40EUR ante bets. After finishing
wagering requirements, my balance was ~700EUR and I made cashout. They just confiscated winnings due to "bonus abuse".
During the last 5 years I have played in more than 100 casinos and this is the only one not paying.

Kevin, why my winnings were confiscated?

PS. Have you returned deposits to all players (losers too) that have placed bets higher than 50% of their deposits? If not, you have
just taken money from the losers and not paying winners... like rogue casinos are supposed to do.

 

[Kevin@Class1]

Just to clarify something first, the user "palapaisti" contacted me first via private message and threatened that he will post this to the forums unless he gets paid. He said that he doesn't really care about money (only about honesty), but we have to pay him in one day, otherwise...

In his case, the bets he made were higher than 100% of his initial deposit amount and he was recognized as a bonus abuser. Again, I admit that the terms were written too loosely, but we have already made the necessary changes to avoid such cases in the future. This does not change our decisions in the past, though.

Regarding the replies about the "high" wagering. Our casino is a casino that gives away a lot of free money. Every single user gets a no-deposit bonus at signup and I think you know this is not the case in other casinos, especially Playtech's. The same goes for deposit bonuses and free bonuses after deposit. If a player deposits as low as 20$, he will get 300% first deposit bonus and after that he is sure to get more than 50$ in future no-deposit bonuses.

By giving the players more chances to win without depositing, we need to raise the wagering requirements. What good is a 10x wagering in a casino that will give you a 20% deposit bonus and one no-deposit bonus in your whole casino lifetime?

I agree, if you are searching for a casino that gives you a mathematical edge, we are probably not the ones for you. But if you are searching for a casino where you can play the longest with the minimum possible money spent, we should be one of the first choices...

Since a lot of you are surely poker players, it's the same with FullTilt vs PokerStars. One is giving rakeback but has a tougher field, other has awful bonuses, but has larger and weaker field. It's a whole different orientation and it's up to a player to decide...

 

[palapaisti]

Just to clarify something first, the user "palapaisti" contacted me first via private message and threatened that he will post this to the forums unless he gets paid. He said that he doesn't really care about money (only about honesty), but we have to pay him in one day, otherwise...

Otherwise what? By what did I threaten you? As far as I know, I have threaten you by telling the truth in public forum if you don't pay. Do you think this is wrong? If so, I'm very sorry. Or is there something untrue in my story about your casino?

In his case, the bets he made were higher than 100% of his initial deposit amount and he was recognized as a bonus abuser. Again, I admit that the terms were written too loosely, but we have already made the necessary changes to avoid such cases in the future. This does not change our decisions in the past, though.

Regarding the replies about the "high" wagering. Our casino is a casino that gives away a lot of free money. Every single user gets a no-deposit bonus at signup and I think you know this is not the case in other casinos, especially Playtech's. The same goes for deposit bonuses and free bonuses after deposit. If a player deposits as low as 20$, he will get 300% first deposit bonus and after that he is sure to get more than 50$ in future no-deposit bonuses.

By giving the players more chances to win without depositing, we need to raise the wagering requirements. What good is a 10x wagering in a casino that will give you a 20% deposit bonus and one no-deposit bonus in your whole casino lifetime?

I agree, if you are searching for a casino that gives you a mathematical edge, we are probably not the ones for you. But if you are searching for a casino where you can play the longest with the minimum possible money spent, we should be one of the first choices...

Since a lot of you are surely poker players, it's the same with FullTilt vs PokerStars. One is giving rakeback but has a tougher field, other has awful bonuses, but has larger and weaker field. It's a whole different orientation and it's up to a player to decide...

Casinomeister, did they had good reason to confiscate my winnings? In my opinion they definitely belong to the rogue pit unless they pay.

 

[big_mac]

I agree, if you are searching for a casino that gives you a mathematical edge, we are probably not the ones for you. But if you are searching for a casino where you can play the longest with the minimum possible money spent, we should be one of the first choices...

So if you might want to have a chance of winning then play somewhere else.

If you don't ever intend to withdraw then this is a good place to play. Or you could just keep your money and play for fun.

I am quite happy to play without a bonus, which I can't withdraw, and has a 275x Wagering requirement as well as restricting my entire play to mostly slots.
All so that I can 'play' for 10% longer? I don't think so!

What good is a 10x wagering in a casino that will give you a 20% deposit bonus and one no-deposit bonus in your whole casino lifetime?

Because, if I play there, I might actually win and be able to withdraw the winnings! Isn't that the point of gambling?