Class 1 Casino don't pay my winning!

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
Berlin
Hello,

the Playtech Casino "Class 1 Casino" (class1casino.com) refuse to pay my winning of 1140 Euro. The casino maintained that I had abused their bonus. In doing so they refer to a rule which says that the casino has the right to estimate in it's sole discretion if someone using strategies which are in there opinion abusive. With that rule the casino has the ability to refuse the payout of any player who is playing with a bunus and win some money.

I have deposit 75 Euro and got a 300% bonus. Then my balance was 300 Euro. First I have played the game "Penalty Shootout" and bet 100 Euro on "Odds X12". I was lucky and won 1200 Euro. My new balance: 1400 Euro
Then I have played the game "Spin A Win" and bet on 22 from 24 numbers 2 Euro per number. I have played until I met the wagering requirement of 20x(deposit+bonus). After that I had a balace of 1365 Euro. The bonus was sticky so I have requested a withdrawal of 1140 Euro.


Some days later I got a mail from Class 1 Casino:
German original:
Hallo

Ich mu� Sie leider dar�ber informieren, dass Ihr Konto gesperrt wurde.
Als wir Ihre Statistik durchgesehen haben, stellten wir fest, dass Sie
auf die Weise Spielen, die in unserem Endbenutzervertrag (Terms &
Conditions) als Bonusabuser bezeichnet wird.
Daher werden wir laut unserem Endbenutzervertrag die folgenden
Schritte.unternehmen. Sie erhalten Ihre Einzahlung zur�ck, Ihre Gewinne
werden als nichtig erkl�rt und Ihr Kasinokonto wird gesperrt.

Falls Sie irgendwelche Fragen haben sollten, kontaktieren Sie uns Bitte
mittells einer E-mail, die Sie an [email protected] schicken.


Mit freundlichen Gr��en,
Anita,
vom Class 1 Casino Support Team
English translation:
Hello

Unfortunately I must inform you that your account has been closed. As we
looked at your statistic we discovered that you are playing in a way that
is in our Terms & Conditions called a bonusabuser.
Therefore we will take the following steps according to our Terms &
Conditions. You will get you deposit back, your winings will be voided and
your casino account will be blocked.

If you should have any question, please contact us via E-mail, which you send
to [email protected].


Kind regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team


I have wrote back the following mail:
German original:
Hallo,

Zitieren Sie bitte aus Ihren Terms & Conditions, jene Regel, die klar
und objektiv definiert, auf welcher Weise man spielen darf und auf
welcher Weise man nicht spielen darf.

Ich habe den Bonus in keiner Weise missbraucht. Ich hatte lediglich viel
Gl�ck, dass mein erster Einsatz in H�he von 100 Euro im Spiel "Penalty
Shootout" erfolgreich war. Danach spielte ich Spin A Win, aber niemals
mit "opposites bets", mit jedem Spiel ging ich das Risiko ein meinen
Einsatz in H�he von 44 Euro zu verlieren. Und tats�chlich hatte ich auch
einiges Geld verloren.

Erkl�ren Sie mir bitte, wo fand da der Bonus-Missbrauch statt? Gehen Sie
mit jedem Spieler so um, der etwas Gl�ck hatte? H�tte Sie mir die 75
Euro auch zur�ckerstattet, wenn ich verloren h�tte (was sehr
wahrscheinlich war bei "Penalty Shootout" mit einer Gewinnchance von nur
8,1% pro Schuss)?

Ich werde diesen Fall auf keinen Fall auf mich beruhen lassen! Wenn Sie
mir meinen Gewinn nicht zahlen, werde ich veranlassen, dass Ihr Casino
auf allen bekannten Blacklists (casinomeister.com, wizardofodds.com und
andere) erscheint. Au�erdem werde ich diesen Vorfall in diversen
deutsch- und englisch-sprachigen Foren bekannt machen. Ich werde auch
Playtech informieren.
English translation:
Hello,

please quote from your Terms & Conditions the rule which defines in a clear
and objective way how I may play and how I don't.

I don't abused your bonus in any way. I just was lucky that I have won my first
100 Euro bet in the game "Penalty Shootout". After that I have played "Spin A
Win" but never with "opposites bets", with every game I have taken the risk to
lose my bet of 44 Euro. Actually I have lost some money with it.

Please explain to me how I have abused your bonus? Do you treat every player
in the same way who is lucky? Would you also refund my 75 Euro if I lost
(which was likely to happen in the game "Penalty Shootout" with a winging
chance of only 8,1% per shot)?

I will not tolerate this behaviour. If you don't pay my winning I will
initiate that you casino will be put on all famous blacklists
(casinomeister.com, wizardofodds.com and others). Furthermore I will make
this known on german and english forums. I also will inform Playtech.


Then I have got the following response:
German original:
Hallo

Hier ist der von Ihnen verlangte Abschnitt (zu finden auf
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


"If it appears that a player is participating in strategies that _the
casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive_, the casino reserves
the right to _revoke all winnings_ on any account/s opened and _all
cash-ins will be cancelled_ where the play has been deemed abusive.
Furthermore, abusing player accounts may be terminated immediately and
the players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving
further promotional offers at the Casino."

Wir m�chten uns bei Ihnen f�r die Aufkl�rung herzlichst bedanken, m�ssen
Sie aber darauf hinweisen, das wir lange genug im Gl�cksspielgesch�ft
dabei sind, um Bonushunters zu erkennen und werden gegen sie auch die
notwendigen Schritte unternehmen.
Weiterhin, wir kennen Foren und Blacklists wie z.B. casinomeister.com wo
sich die wirklich guten Casinospieler aufhalten und sind uns auch sehr
gut bewu�t dass Bonushunter und Bonusabuser auf den Foren besonders
unbeliebt, ja, sogar unerw�nscht sind.

Wir hoffen dass Sie sich im klaren dar�ber sind, dass es auch wir nicht
auf uns beruhen lassen k�nnen und werden alle m�glichen Mittel gegen
Bonushunter und/oder Bonusabuser unternehmen. Deshalb werden wir
nat�rlich auf jeden derartigen Beitrag antworten und die Sache richtig
stellen, wie auch Playtech informieren (auch das ist auf der "Promotion
Rules" Seite erkl�rt). So wird Ihnen das Spielen in allen Casinos von
Playtech verweigert.


Gru�,
Anita,
vom Class 1 Casino Unterst�tzungsteam
English translation:
Hello

Here is the requested clause (form
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

"If it appears that a player is participating in strategies that _the
casino in its sole discretion deems to be abusive_, the casino reserves
the right to _revoke all winnings_ on any account/s opened and _all
cash-ins will be cancelled_ where the play has been deemed abusive.
Furthermore, abusing player accounts may be terminated immediately and
the players found to be abusing promotions may be barred from receiving
further promotional offers at the Casino."

We thank you for your clearing, but we must inform you that we are working
long enough in the gambling business to recognize bonushunters and we will
do the necessary steps against them. Furthermore we know forums and blacklist
like casinomeister.com which are visited by realy good players and we know
that bonushunters and bonusabuser are very obnoxious, even unwanted in this
forums.

We hope you know that we will not tolerate it and we will use any possible
instrument against bonushunter and bonusabuser. Therefore we will respond
on any statement to correct it and we also will inform Playtech (which is
explained in our "Promotion Rules" page). That way you will be banned from
any Plactech casinos.


Regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team

Has someone an idea how I can still get my winning?

Someone from a other forum told me, that this casino was called "Maxima Casino" and is now renamed to "Class 1 Casino" with the same staff. To protect other players I recommend to update the list on https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/.
 
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hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
No surprise for me here. 1class casino is a former Maxima casino. And Maxima casino used this same method to confiscate the winnings from online players. Offcourse, their reasoning is absurd. What they actually call bonus abuse is the fact that somebody got lucky to win at their casino.They don't like you when you win. The problem here is that PLAYTECH don't care about this dirty tricks of their licensees. Unfortunately , I don't think anybody will help you here. Hope I am wrong.
 

sdaddy

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Arizona
We hope you know that we will not tolerate it and we will use any possible
instrument against bonushunter and bonusabuser. Therefore we will respond
on any statement to correct it and we also will inform Playtech (which is
explained in our "Promotion Rules" page). That way you will be banned from
any Plactech casinos.


Regards,
Anita,
from Class 1 Casino Support Team
VERY interesting. Sure enough, you find this remarkable admission in their T&Cs:
The Casino reserves the right to bar any promotion abusers from receiving any further promotions at CLASS 1 CASINO, as well as the right to pass on any information regarding known abusers to Playtech. This will ensure that they will be barred from promotions at all Casinos utilizing the services of Playtech.
I think that just reignited the debate over whether Playtech itself maintains a blacklist of "bonus abusers."
 

hakapuku

Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr
Joined
Aug 29, 2006
Location
UA
this is soooo ridiculous this bonus hunting/abusing stuff! First, casinos like 1class do hunt for players seducing them with biggest bonus offering. My email box is full of 1class casino's emails inviting me to play and win with their bonus. And when you join them and win somehow - then you ,player, become a greedy bonus hunter and even a bonus abuser! And then - no mercy!
 

[email protected]

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Location
EU
Hello,


I would like to present the Class 1 Casino stance on this matter.

First some general thoughts about bonus abuse. Unfortunately it is present in the industry and it hurts casinos and genuine casino players. A lot about this subject is also available in different online sources. Most casinos also defend themselves with certain T&C clauses that give the casino the right to decide (in its sole discretion) to ban the user or even refuse to pay any winnings deemed to be won in that abusive manner.
As I saw criticism and speculation about these rules in this forum threads I checked out some other casinos to see if they have similar terms. I have glanced through the T&C of 5 Playtech casinos and about 10 Microgaming. All Playtech casinos I checked had almost identical clauses as Class 1 Casino has. Also I found similar clauses in at least half the checked Microgaming casinos. In some cases the clauses were not so direct, but I believe they are there to ensure against such abuses. All the casinos I have checked are found on Casinomeister Accredited Online Casinos list. Therefore I submit to you that these clauses by themselves are not present solely in Class 1 Casino, but are in fact almost an industry standard.

Of course we understand that customers do not like to see these rules and even more see them being enforced. That is also the reason why we do not use them unless we are completely confident that we have identified a real bonus abuser. Flagging a person as bonus abuser is a harsh claim and it usually has negative consequences for the casino in form of bad publicity. But sometimes it has to be done. Successful bonus abuse usually leads to more bonus abuse and sometimes even fraud. This happens as abusive players move from one casino to another to claim and abuse just the best signup offer. Once the (otherwise long) list of casinos comes to an end, such customers often start creating duplicate accounts. In some cases the bonus abusers that work in a ring have even sufficient computer knowledge to avoid duplicate account detection for a long time.

So once again in short. Class 1 Casino (as most other online casinos) has the means to refuse to pay in case of bonus abuse, but we do not use this unless the abuse really happened.


Now about this case in particular.

The customer was flagged abusive by our fraud department due to the way he played his signup bonus of 300%. We would not disclose his game history here, but since the customer already did it... He bet the first bet to the maximum allowed by our settings at that time and a third of his entire bankroll on a high risk bet. He knew his odds and knew that with using the same strategy in multiple casinos the odds are actually on his side. Genuine customers just don't bet one third of their balance gained with using first signup match bonus. This is usually a bigger than usual player balance since the first bonus is more attractive. All players following bets were placed in a way that minimizes the player loss and maximizes the wagering played out. Player has exceeded the minimal wagering requirement for a minimal amount. One spin less on the game and it would not be enough. CM forum members can decide for themselves if this play was played with the intention of abusing our bonus. We have decided this was the case.

And the developments after our denial were more than enough to convince us of this.

He did not update this thread with later correspondences. Both emails he posted were from 29.8.2008. On 30.8.2008 he sent us another email. This one had a list of over 50 casino forums and blacklists. He wrote that he is giving us this last chance to pay his winnings or he will post about us in all this forums. He also mentioned that he will take even more drastic measures if we do not comply. We naturally answered that we refuse to be bullied and that we will not change our position. Since it is mostly just links to forum sites I will not post this email here, but if you wish me to, I can.

We would otherwise not post our email correspondences in forums, but since the customer did it, we do not see why not use this ourselves.
The following original email in German and its translation that I will provide are in our opinion without a doubt proofs that we have made the right decision regarding this user and it also shows why we will not reverse our decision no matter what. I think the email speaks for itself and needs not much comment.

Original German mail from him to [email protected] on 31.8.2008 at 4:38PM (mere 2h before this thread was opened)
Hallo,

ich bin dabei Vorbereitungen f�r die DDoS-Attacke gegen Ihren Web- und
Game-Server durchzuf�hren. Ich m�chte darauf hinweisen, dass das
verbannen der IP-Range meines ISPs keinerleit Schutz gegen die DDoS
(Distributed Denial-of-Service) Attacke bietet. Mir stehen hunderte von
Servern mit starker Anbindung zur Verf�gung. Ihr Web- und Game-Server
wird unter der Last von mehreren Hunderttausend Anfragen pro Sekunde
zusammenbrechen. Der Angriff beginnt sp�testens in 48 Stunden und wird
sich �ber 3 Tage hinwegziehen. Danach werde ich Ihnen nochmals die
Gelegenheit geben Ihr Schuld in H�he von 1065 Euro zu zahlen. Bei
weiterer Weigerung werde ich den Angriff fortsetzen. Sollten Sie sich
dazu bereit erkl�ren Ihre Schild jetzt sofort zu begleichen, werde ich
von den Angriff absehen.

English translation of mail from him to [email protected] on 31.8.2008 at 4:38PM (mere 2h before this thread was opened)
Hi,

I have prepared for my DDoS-Attack against your Web- and Game-Server. I want to point out that banning the IP-Address of my ISP is not going to provide you any safety against the DDoS (Distributed Denial-of-Service) attack. I have hundreds of servers with a strong connection at hand. Your Web- and Game-Server will breakdown under the burden of hundreds of thousands of requests per second. The attack will start not later than in 48 hours and will last for 3 consecutive days. After that I will give you another chance to pay your debt of �1065. In case of further denial I will continue with the attack. If you are ready to pay your debt right away, I will refrain from the attack.
 
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winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
Hey,

Do you have a SPECIFIC rule in your T&C stating that a player cannot bet 1/3rd+ of his bankroll on one hand/slot pull/whatever?

Is a player supposed to guess at what you deem is bonus abuse?

and if he did send that email regarding the DDoS attack, I'd send that to the authorities rather than posting it here.
 

suzecat

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 18, 2004
Location
California
Bryan, our resident German-speaking expert............., just for chits and giggles, would you tell us if the translations above are accurate? Not that I believe they are bogus, I'm just a skeptic:)
 

sdaddy

Meister Member
Joined
Feb 18, 2005
Location
Arizona
Do you have a SPECIFIC rule in your T&C stating that a player cannot bet 1/3rd+ of his bankroll on one hand/slot pull/whatever?

Is a player supposed to guess at what you deem is bonus abuse
Exactly. In a case like this, the casino wants to have it both ways: on the one hand, keep a vague "bonus abuse" policy that gives them unlimited discretion, but, on the other hand, assert that only clear-cut cases of abuse would be used as reason to confiscate winnings.

If it's so clear to the casino what constitutes abuse, then it shouldn't be a problem at all to come up with SPECIFIC rules that prohibit it.
 

lauram

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Location
toronto
I really think there is more to this then what we have been told about.
If he really sent that email to the casino it kinda shows he has more then one computer with different isp numbers to open up more then one account.
If this is the case then i can understand how the casino would look at it as bonus abuse if a player opens up account after account and makes a single bet with all his chips he at one point is bound to make a huge hit and finish playthrough and cashout.
 

bb28

Meister Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Location
US
Would a player who had a real legitimate complaint threaten this kind of dirty deed?
I don't think so...........
Quote:
Hi,

I have prepared for my DDoS-Attack against your Web- and Game-Server. I want to point out that banning the IP-Address of my ISP is not going to provide you any safety against the DDoS (Distributed Denial-of-Service) attack. I have hundreds of servers with a strong connection at hand. Your Web- and Game-Server will breakdown under the burden of hundreds of thousands of requests per second. The attack will start not later than in 48 hours and will last for 3 consecutive days. After that I will give you another chance to pay your debt of �1065. In case of further denial I will continue with the attack. If you are ready to pay your debt right away, I will refrain from the attack.


 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
Winbig & Sdaddy already said what I was thinking on this matter regardless of any threating letter or not, the letter has only secondary relevance. I want to see answers from the casino rep to Winbig & Sdaddy...:thumbsup:
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I agree with SDaddy and Winbig's thought on posts 4 and 9 here - there's way too much use of the lawyer's "we can do what we like and our decision is final" instead of properly framed T&Cs.

If the player gambled within the T&Cs, then pay him and then ban him - don't take his money and then try to wriggle out from the casino obligation when he wins by screwing around with this ridiculous "bonus abuser" scam.

But the player should be careful in making the threats that he has allegedly made - cyber-extortion, intimidation and terrorism are taken very seriously by European authorities and he could well find himself in a world of you-know-what just for threatening to deploy this sort of criminal activity.
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
Bryan, our resident German-speaking expert............., just for chits and giggles, would you tell us if the translations above are accurate? Not that I believe they are bogus, I'm just a skeptic:)
The German text is correct German apart from a couple of typos. It is clearly not a computer translation. If this stuff genuine, then this guy must be a graduate of the Adolf Hitler School of Diplomacy.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
[email protected],

For a start stop spamming me. Over the past few months, I have been spammed literally every day asking me to register there and in several languages too. Even if I could play at Playtech-powered casinos, do you think I would bother with a casino who has sent me more than 200 spam mails?:mad::mad:
 

Edward D. Wood

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 30, 2007
Location
europe
any updates here?
i would be more than curious what happened with the planed DDOS attack.
markus, just be careful...

after reading this whole story. Hmmm..YES, he is right. the problem is (when he is a serious one. and not a bad-boy-bonus-somehting). what can he do to get his money/winning??

let them eat their own tactics. i have really no mercy with those crooks.
sounds rather brutala and subversive, but pfffff...what about stealing money from customers?

just my 2 cents.
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
Joined
Jun 2, 2006
Location
Vancouver
I know this is an older thread however it really chokes me when rogue casino's change there name, formerly Maxima which was known to pull these tactics and had ridiculous bonus terms prey on uninformed people and continue to steal money without any form of penalty whatsoever. Tell me on this earth what other businesses can operate and get away stuff like this. It is such a leap of faith depositing these days.:mad:
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Bonus Hunter?

I am sick and tired of casinos singing the Bonus Abuser song. If you open a duplicate account, that is clearly against every T&C I have ever read.

Casinos are more than free to ban a player from further promotions, or even block their accounts if they wish, but should not be free to DENY winnings based on play allowed by their rules and by their software.

As for Bonus Hunters, I don't have to hunt far...I get lots of spam email offers.

Casinos spend a lot of time, effort and money promoting their bonuses, paying affiliates and seeking high search engine listings to promote these bonuses. Bonus "hunter" is a joke. If there is only one bonus per group, fine, list them clearly. Check a new player against your database before granting a bonus.

Do not accuse a player of "hunting" for something you make so easy to find.
 

1819

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Location
ny,nj,fla
this all can be avoided by simply lowering the bet limits when a bonus is being used. it is the fault of the casino. they took a 1/3rd bankroll bet and the player got lucky. they would not refund his bet if he lost. fraudster or not the casino took a legitimate wager and should make good. if you want to close the account for multiple accounts, or some other decent reason, then that is fine. that is not the reason given. the "we dont like your play style" is crap.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
Berlin
I still didn't get my winning. I also didn't perform any kind of DDOS attack, but it is true that I have made this threat. I know now that making this threat wasn't a very good idea, but at this time I felt so helpless and thought this would be my only chance to get my money.

If I had known earlier about the PAB service, I would have chosen definitely this way instead of making threats. But I suppose now it's too late for a PAB, because too much time has passed since this event, isn't it? Furthermore I have only little hope that a PAB would help me here, because in the past Maxima Casino seems always to ignore the Casinomeister.

It's too bad that Casinomeister's Rouge List isn't completely up-to-date, because I have always checked casino blacklists like this before I have signed up at any casino. This isn't meant as criticism but if Class 1 Casino would there be listed as a rebranded Maxima Casino I would have never played there.
 
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