Casino Grand Bay can kiss my @#$
- Thread starter belgamo
- Start date
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
caruso said:
I'm guessing you fired off a personalized "thank you" email.
LOL...just kidding.
Glad you got the bonus...good luck.
the dUck
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Location
- WV
Can you honestly believe no one has come to address this?
I can....they don't answer emails or players complaints at other forums, why would they come here....my guess is they think if they don't look it, it does not exist.
Just like all the other times, I am sure they will try and come up with a "quick fix" but that will not solve the problems in the long run. This group of casinos has been going downhill for a very long time and I think the majority of the people have just had enough!
They obviously do not care about their players or we would not be posting here in the first place!
I can....they don't answer emails or players complaints at other forums, why would they come here....my guess is they think if they don't look it, it does not exist.
Just like all the other times, I am sure they will try and come up with a "quick fix" but that will not solve the problems in the long run. This group of casinos has been going downhill for a very long time and I think the majority of the people have just had enough!
They obviously do not care about their players or we would not be posting here in the first place!
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
- Location
- USA
Another "for the record"... after various additional e-mails I have now received 3 of the 4 pending bonuses I was expecting. The other was denied on an itermittently applied technicality rule (requiring a non-bonus $20 deposit between bonuses) so I can't argue that one further. The last bonus credited was even accompanied by an apology(!)
But as recently as yesterday I received yet another deposit $1000 bonus offer e-mail, so apparently that side of things isn't straightened out yet. At least, I'm presuming I'm not entitled to that bonus.
But as recently as yesterday I received yet another deposit $1000 bonus offer e-mail, so apparently that side of things isn't straightened out yet. At least, I'm presuming I'm not entitled to that bonus.
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
chalupa said:
Good for you...hope you win.
the dUck
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Location
- USA
Im working on this as we speak. I've been in touch with top management and Marc and Melissa are off until next week. It is summer there and they have a month's vacation or something. They are aware of this thread and many others and they will be addressing this...TRUST ME.
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
I have heard that Marc Woods is on an indefinite personal leave...would be great to have him back. I've had good luck with James Winters in the past...but I understand he has been promoted from day to day operations.
the dUck
the dUck
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Location
- Home Office
Who knows about who is in charge for the week!
Marc is in the VIP Dept now Slotchic that hardly makes him top management,
James was the only one and IS the only one at that company that gives a rats ass about anything on forums or about players!
James is at one minute in charge of the forum team, then the next minute he is transferred to the VIP with Marc, my thoughts are .............
Fire all the asses and put James in charge or bring Marc back
!
Marc is in the VIP Dept now Slotchic that hardly makes him top management,
James was the only one and IS the only one at that company that gives a rats ass about anything on forums or about players!
James is at one minute in charge of the forum team, then the next minute he is transferred to the VIP with Marc, my thoughts are .............
Fire all the asses and put James in charge or bring Marc back
!
slotchik said:
Sorry to butt in with a largely negative view here, but this "they're all on leave," added to the total lack of a public communication by either casino or group on this matter after several weeks merely serves to confirm for me that the place is not being run properly.
If you're open over the holidays with an international business then the duty roster for managers who can make major decisions should have someone available to deal with this embarrassingly bad problem quickly and effectively. Before the casino starts to haemorrhage players.
It seems that individual players are receiving apologies and the bonuses that they should have received in the first place, but that is not addressing the bigger issue of making sure that every player prejudiced by this has been looked after. Neither does it help to recover the group's badly dented reputation.
In fact, it is really just doing the minimum necessary to escape players' wrath.
Vixen (I think) mentioned in a previous post that the *strategy* (LOL!) of some managers there was to ignore this and hope it will just go away. That's the sort of head-in-the-sand, unprofessional thinking that makes me agree with her that a serious shake-up is needed among those who are supposed to be handling this side of the Grand Prive group business.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2004
- Location
- Planet Earth (I think)
Sounds strange to me too! I don't really mind now, as my account is as dead as a door mat now, but what also intrests me, how ecogra responded, which I imagine they don't have that "excuse" of being on leave. I am sure this would doubt their honesty and consideration, when they respond to customers the way they did.
Are there "any" approved seals that can be trusted?
Khanawake, didn't even respond to my problem!
I personally think Casinomeister should make his own "seal of approval" and there will some "real and honest exchange there"!
May be we should make a poll about that!
Are there "any" approved seals that can be trusted?
Khanawake, didn't even respond to my problem!
I personally think Casinomeister should make his own "seal of approval" and there will some "real and honest exchange there"!
May be we should make a poll about that!
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2003
- Location
- USA
HE DOES in his recommended casinos part......
That is CM's stamp of approval~~
Vix~
I've been totally upfront with the management team and they are getting on this ASAP.
I agree with you 100%
That is CM's stamp of approval~~
Vix~
I've been totally upfront with the management team and they are getting on this ASAP.
I agree with you 100%
uungy said:
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2004
- Location
- Up$hitCreek
Sort of long...
This is a follow up to an email I'd sent them last week asking about the Dec 25th promo for which I'd deposited and not received credit. Note: this bonus did indeed show up in my Jupiter account yesterday.
Now... get a load of this one I got in my email this morning:
Nice to know all this bruhaha was just a case of mass hallucination resulting in 'contradictory rumors'. I feel much better, don't you?
This is a follow up to an email I'd sent them last week asking about the Dec 25th promo for which I'd deposited and not received credit. Note: this bonus did indeed show up in my Jupiter account yesterday.
Now... get a load of this one I got in my email this morning:
Nice to know all this bruhaha was just a case of mass hallucination resulting in 'contradictory rumors'. I feel much better, don't you?
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Location
- Home Office
Pay No Attention to the man behind the curtain, he is the great and powerful OZ, he does no wrong!!
It's all rumors, everyone received the bonus!
It's all rumors, everyone received the bonus!
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2005
- Location
- New York State
uungy said:
Not a bad idea, at all. Perhaps the seal could be given to casino's that receive a certain percantage of votes of reputable forum posters here at CM.
For example, if 90% of those that have certain number of reputations points (and also a member of CM and CM forum for atleast 6 months) voted to award the seal to a casino then they should be allowed to brandish the CM seal on their site.
This seal could be reviewed an annual or semi-annual basis. It would both encourage casinos to act in good faith and maintain it.
Just my two cents.
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2005
- Location
- home
see...... the thing is it doesnt really matter what casinomiester thinks (to me it does) but if he puts the casino on rogue lists, the only people who are gonna know is active members in the forum. we can PAB but it will only effect the members of casinomiester no one else is gonna know who plays at the casino, all the casino advertising on tv that people see attracts them to places like golden palace, there is no way they are gonna know what is wrong with them
thats not to many people
some people still play casinos that are not casinomiester approved and they are members of this forum
so i think this group is a discrace in all actuallaty
they are not gonna lose alot of business becuase id say at least 95% of the gamblers have no knowledge about online forums like this at all, so they pick and chose and do what they want
ive gone back in my records and never had a problem with them, but it doesnt matter that can easily change, just like the group shows you how quickly it changed hardly no complaints if any at all before the adding of roadhouse reels. now look the complaints section is full of them
i feel a way to solve the problem is inform all the entire gambling world which is imposible, so i think places like this give the software a bad name
look at connecto and portofino, since the start of complaints from them business has gone down at rtgs, people say they are not trustable just look at the sci fi group and inetbet 2 of my favorites in my opinion, they are not bad but people view them as it just because all the complaints about the software
i feel groups like this need to be takin serouisly and should change there ways and if not microgaming shouldnt allow them to use the software anymore, even if its just all a bonus problem, its going to have a riple effect.
this was just my whole entire view on this thread
and for the record they made a step in the right direction with the email they sent out that, i am sure some people are still owed bonuses but its a start.
thats not to many people
some people still play casinos that are not casinomiester approved and they are members of this forum
so i think this group is a discrace in all actuallaty
they are not gonna lose alot of business becuase id say at least 95% of the gamblers have no knowledge about online forums like this at all, so they pick and chose and do what they want
ive gone back in my records and never had a problem with them, but it doesnt matter that can easily change, just like the group shows you how quickly it changed hardly no complaints if any at all before the adding of roadhouse reels. now look the complaints section is full of them
i feel a way to solve the problem is inform all the entire gambling world which is imposible, so i think places like this give the software a bad name
look at connecto and portofino, since the start of complaints from them business has gone down at rtgs, people say they are not trustable just look at the sci fi group and inetbet 2 of my favorites in my opinion, they are not bad but people view them as it just because all the complaints about the software
i feel groups like this need to be takin serouisly and should change there ways and if not microgaming shouldnt allow them to use the software anymore, even if its just all a bonus problem, its going to have a riple effect.
this was just my whole entire view on this thread
and for the record they made a step in the right direction with the email they sent out that, i am sure some people are still owed bonuses but its a start.
- Joined
- Dec 29, 2005
- Location
- southern california
Mousey said:
So those who were told they aren't eligible for any more bonuses should just forget what they were told...Is that what they are saying? lol
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2005
- Location
- Left Hungary
As uungy says
This might get to the players that need to come here and take a look see at just what the CM's seal stands for..if he is on some casino sites and not others...think that is very good food for thought....
This logo (seal) alone would steer me the right direction, which thankfully finding this forum has already.
Now about this seal of approval from the Casinomeister...I know I look to see what seals and logos the casinos carry before I choose to play there, and if one is different..I do some researching..
This might get to the players that need to come here and take a look see at just what the CM's seal stands for..if he is on some casino sites and not others...think that is very good food for thought....
This logo (seal) alone would steer me the right direction, which thankfully finding this forum has already.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2004
- Location
- Planet Earth (I think)
Thats exactly what I meant! True the forums are of good/bad casino's. but giving a company the seal, so they can display on the website is a very strong and powerful resourcesilcnlayc said:
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2004
- Location
- USA
A further word of warning...
Bella Vegas has instituted a new bonus-playthrough system that is either not working right or is horrible.
As I noted earlier, I finally received my entire bonus, and lost it, resulting in a zero balance.
About 12 hours later I cashed in all my remaining loyalty points (in preparation for leaving Grand Prive forever
) played them up a bit, and went to cash out and... it said I couldn't withdraw because my wagering requirements weren't met.
A flurry of chat, phone conversation, and e-mail ensued over several days, wherein various ill-informed and nonsensical customer service reps kept repeating that I had bonus requirements, and explaining (sometimes correctly) how they were calculated, but never ONCE answering my repeated direct questioning as to why I had ANY wagering requirements remaining after reaching a ZERO balance.
The "conversations" eventually became worthy of a Laurel and Hardy script.
I finally gave up and blew it all on some slots rather than continue to aggravate myself.
Luckily over the past year I won a sizable sum from the Grand Prive group. My recent experiences will certainly ensure that they don't get a chance to win it back!
Bella Vegas has instituted a new bonus-playthrough system that is either not working right or is horrible.
As I noted earlier, I finally received my entire bonus, and lost it, resulting in a zero balance.
About 12 hours later I cashed in all my remaining loyalty points (in preparation for leaving Grand Prive forever
) played them up a bit, and went to cash out and... it said I couldn't withdraw because my wagering requirements weren't met.A flurry of chat, phone conversation, and e-mail ensued over several days, wherein various ill-informed and nonsensical customer service reps kept repeating that I had bonus requirements, and explaining (sometimes correctly) how they were calculated, but never ONCE answering my repeated direct questioning as to why I had ANY wagering requirements remaining after reaching a ZERO balance.
The "conversations" eventually became worthy of a Laurel and Hardy script.
I finally gave up and blew it all on some slots rather than continue to aggravate myself.
Luckily over the past year I won a sizable sum from the Grand Prive group. My recent experiences will certainly ensure that they don't get a chance to win it back!
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2004
- Location
- UK
I agree with everything that's been said about Grand Prive, but I'd just like to point out they haven't suddenly become shady overnight. The thread below was started in May 2005 & from that point on they continually used tricks to encourage people to deposit before then denying bonuses:liquidsoap said:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/bella-vegas-bonus-confusion-and-trickery.8392/
That was followed by the long-running issue of their disabling Neteller for individual accounts. In itself that was weird but acceptable, except they chose to lie about it and claim it was a technical problem they spent 5 months "looking into" (unless you really believe them despite the fact no other group of MG casinos seemed to suffer
).So the current problems (exacerbated by the fact they may well have lost money opening a new casino) aren't a suprise, nor is the disgraceful behaviour of the management. This group have lost any possible right to be given the benefit of the doubt.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
As for a seal, this is too regulatory for me, and I have no desire to become a casino-policeman. My mission here is to provide information - information in all shapes sizes and forms.silcnlayc said:
I recommend casinos, and there are others that I don't recommend. I also acknowledge casinos for good deeds - and chastise others for being naughty.
The forum is only a third of Casinomeister's traffic - the rogue section, news, newsletter, webcast, and recommended casinos are privy to others beside forum membersliquidsoap said:
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2001
- Location
- London
And that is why people who actually know what is going on, would choose you over Ecogra with all their self puffery, heavy duty backup, funding, staff and 2 PR firms.Casinomeister said:
Chastise me for saying it, I am easy because the facts remain the same.
- Joined
- Nov 18, 2004
- Location
- Home Office
Now they are saying if you see the promos listed on the website and in the casino, you CANNOT do these promos unless they are emailed to you!
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2006
- Location
- long island
no promo bonus!!!!! 
Thank you for your mail.
You are not eligible for this bonus as these mailers were sent out by our marketing department to a target audience only.
If you did not receive an email then you are not on the target list.
Thanks
Michael
Support
So I email them back saying:The Promotion is advertised on the website, Survivor, with 100% match, ????
I get this reply:
Dear Jennifer,
Thank you for your mail.
All our promotional emails sent out do have the line this email is meant for the recipient only on them.
If an offer is advertised on the website it does not make you eligible unless you received the offer directly form us.
Thank you
Michael
Support
So I said this :This is the email from last weeks "SURVIVOR" promotion, I do not see anywhere on this email
this email is meant for the recipient only I have got other promotional offers in the past without receiving an email. I deposit regularly and I am very dissappointed that I am being discluded from this promotion
<img border=0 src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/wjalbi/cgb.jpg" />
To qualify for this bonus, all you have to do is purchase $20 or more between 6pm and midnight (EST). Your bonus will be credited on Tuesday, 3 January 2006, by midnight (EST).
These 30 contestants must play Survivor Grand Bay every Monday if they want to make it through to the next round. Every week, 10 contestants will be voted off until we have the winner of Survivor Grand Bay!
The Tribe has spoken... Congratulations to our Survivor Grand Bay winner!
XXX (TBA) has outbet, outplayed and outlast the other contestants and walks away with the grand prize of $1,000!
All 30 contestants have won prizes. See the Message of the Day for details.
Bungy Jumping at Bloukrans Bridge: Situated along the Garden Route at the Tsitsikamma Forest Village Market, you will find the highest single span arch bridge in the world. Recognized by the Guinness World Records, this is the highest commercially operated Bungy Jump in the world! Go for it! What are you waiting for?
Your account number is tgbr********
Terms and Conditions apply.
<img border=0 src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/wjalbi/terms.jpg" />
Also available in Canadian Dollars and Euros.
I am still waiting to see if they reply, Is this B.S or What????
OK SO I GET THIS:
If you click on the link that says terms and conditions at the bottom of the mail.
You will see the following.
The promotion is intended for the recipient only.
All Casino Grand Bay's normal terms & conditions apply.
This promotion is open to REAL PLAYERS @ CASINO GRAND BAY
Thank you
Michael
Support
I REPLIED THIS: " This promotion is open to REAL PLAYERS @ CASINO GRAND BAY" I AM A REAL PLAYER??? I DEPO HERE ALL THE TIME, WELL AT LEAST I USED TO BE!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOOH IM MAD
AND THEIR FINAL REPLY:
Dear Jennifer,
Thank you for your mail.
That is correct the promotion is open to all real players who
received the email from our Marketing department.
If you did not receive an email this week then it means you
were not included in the target audience this week.
Thanks
Michael
Support
As for the email jeffbwl recieved :
Recently, there has been a great deal of confusion
with many contradictory rumors regarding the
crediting of our promotional offers. All monies due
have been credited - please check your account.
The simple truth is that there is NO substance
to any of these rumors.
We, the Grand Prive Group of Casinos, will ALWAYS
honor our promotional offers.
This is one of the reasons why our casinos are so
popular.
WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!!!
Thank you for your mail.
You are not eligible for this bonus as these mailers were sent out by our marketing department to a target audience only.
If you did not receive an email then you are not on the target list.
Thanks
Michael
Support
So I email them back saying:The Promotion is advertised on the website, Survivor, with 100% match, ????
I get this reply:
Dear Jennifer,
Thank you for your mail.
All our promotional emails sent out do have the line this email is meant for the recipient only on them.
If an offer is advertised on the website it does not make you eligible unless you received the offer directly form us.
Thank you
Michael
Support
So I said this :This is the email from last weeks "SURVIVOR" promotion, I do not see anywhere on this email
this email is meant for the recipient only I have got other promotional offers in the past without receiving an email. I deposit regularly and I am very dissappointed that I am being discluded from this promotion
<img border=0 src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/wjalbi/cgb.jpg" />
To qualify for this bonus, all you have to do is purchase $20 or more between 6pm and midnight (EST). Your bonus will be credited on Tuesday, 3 January 2006, by midnight (EST).
These 30 contestants must play Survivor Grand Bay every Monday if they want to make it through to the next round. Every week, 10 contestants will be voted off until we have the winner of Survivor Grand Bay!
The Tribe has spoken... Congratulations to our Survivor Grand Bay winner!
XXX (TBA) has outbet, outplayed and outlast the other contestants and walks away with the grand prize of $1,000!
All 30 contestants have won prizes. See the Message of the Day for details.
Bungy Jumping at Bloukrans Bridge: Situated along the Garden Route at the Tsitsikamma Forest Village Market, you will find the highest single span arch bridge in the world. Recognized by the Guinness World Records, this is the highest commercially operated Bungy Jump in the world! Go for it! What are you waiting for?
Your account number is tgbr********
Terms and Conditions apply.
<img border=0 src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y268/wjalbi/terms.jpg" />
Also available in Canadian Dollars and Euros.
I am still waiting to see if they reply, Is this B.S or What????
OK SO I GET THIS:
If you click on the link that says terms and conditions at the bottom of the mail.
You will see the following.
The promotion is intended for the recipient only.
All Casino Grand Bay's normal terms & conditions apply.
This promotion is open to REAL PLAYERS @ CASINO GRAND BAY
Thank you
Michael
Support
I REPLIED THIS: " This promotion is open to REAL PLAYERS @ CASINO GRAND BAY" I AM A REAL PLAYER??? I DEPO HERE ALL THE TIME, WELL AT LEAST I USED TO BE!!!!!!!
OOOOOOOOH IM MAD
AND THEIR FINAL REPLY:
Dear Jennifer,
Thank you for your mail.
That is correct the promotion is open to all real players who
received the email from our Marketing department.
If you did not receive an email this week then it means you
were not included in the target audience this week.
Thanks
Michael
Support
As for the email jeffbwl recieved :
Recently, there has been a great deal of confusion
with many contradictory rumors regarding the
crediting of our promotional offers. All monies due
have been credited - please check your account.
The simple truth is that there is NO substance
to any of these rumors.
We, the Grand Prive Group of Casinos, will ALWAYS
honor our promotional offers.
This is one of the reasons why our casinos are so
popular.
WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP!!!!
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- US
Casinomeister said:
I was wondering actually why the Meister approved casinos don't tout the approval on their sites. Other than Bodog, which has a "seal" looking Casinomeister link on their site. It's no bad thing. It would lead potential customers to this site, where they could check out the forums. Then again, maybe that's the reason
Cheers,
SM
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
I hand out awards at the end of the year for varying things, and most of the awardees tout these (unless it's a Stupid Casino Trick" award or worst casino).Slotmachine said:I was wondering actually why the Meister approved casinos don't tout the approval on their sites. Other than Bodog, which has a "seal" looking Casinomeister link on their site. It's no bad thing. It would lead potential customers to this site, where they could check out the forums. Then again, maybe that's the reason
Cheers,
SM
As we all know, seals can be abused - just look at the Windows casino crap clones. They are apparently eCOGRA and IGC "approved", and they won't take the seals down. What a bunch of a-holes.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2006
- Location
- long island
fixed
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Thanks for this lesson.
I have now learned that an eCogra seal is not the cast-iron guarantee of a good experience I once thought it to be. Surely eCogra must realise the length of time these issues has taken to resolve, dating back to the Neteller "technical problem", has devalued the seal somewhat. eCogra casinos who are the height of integrity must be disappointed at the collateral damage this could inflict on their own businesses.
I would like to see a full investigation into whether the casinos lied about the Neteller problem when stating it to be a technical glitch. If a fabrication, this alone should be enough to be stripped of the seal as they are effectively libelling (slander if over the telephone) MG and Neteller as technically problematic, as well as hiding the motives behind the issues. If they are not wanting to pay bonus prizes, they should state this clearly, not mess around trying to get some other company to take the flak.
I would expect to see this group looked at carefully by Bryan with a view to granting them a suspension till these issues are properly resolved. The problems of T & C being unviewable still exists in parts (raised last JULY). It is unethical not to allow players to retain their own copy of the T & C with the "no right click" applet/script in the web page, even if needed to protect other parts of the site. (It's about as secure as a chocolate padlock mind ).
Until such time as they mend their ways, eCogra or not; accredited or not; I am not interested in playing there any longer, although I had been considering the merits of the new eZbonus system, and them currently being the only MG to have a wager tool available to prevent player mistakes.
I have now learned that an eCogra seal is not the cast-iron guarantee of a good experience I once thought it to be. Surely eCogra must realise the length of time these issues has taken to resolve, dating back to the Neteller "technical problem", has devalued the seal somewhat. eCogra casinos who are the height of integrity must be disappointed at the collateral damage this could inflict on their own businesses.
I would like to see a full investigation into whether the casinos lied about the Neteller problem when stating it to be a technical glitch. If a fabrication, this alone should be enough to be stripped of the seal as they are effectively libelling (slander if over the telephone) MG and Neteller as technically problematic, as well as hiding the motives behind the issues. If they are not wanting to pay bonus prizes, they should state this clearly, not mess around trying to get some other company to take the flak.
I would expect to see this group looked at carefully by Bryan with a view to granting them a suspension till these issues are properly resolved. The problems of T & C being unviewable still exists in parts (raised last JULY). It is unethical not to allow players to retain their own copy of the T & C with the "no right click" applet/script in the web page, even if needed to protect other parts of the site. (It's about as secure as a chocolate padlock mind
).Until such time as they mend their ways, eCogra or not; accredited or not; I am not interested in playing there any longer, although I had been considering the merits of the new eZbonus system, and them currently being the only MG to have a wager tool available to prevent player mistakes.
I think you make some good points here, Vinyl and I would recommend that you formally bring the total and detailed package of Grand Prive misdeeds and your opinions on this to eCOGRA's attention through their onsite communication system to ensure it is taken on board.
The last few weeks have seen what is undeniably a very disappointing performance that is way below the standards players are entitled to expect from a "Play It Safe" seal casino, and I can therefore appreciate your reaction.
However, to present another perspective on the matter I think it should be recognised that Andrew Beveridge has played a very active role in bringing some common sense to the management of this group and getting them to sort out aggrieved players. I think the 'Meister will attest to this, as do I as we have both been ragging on eCOGRA throughout and have some knowledge on what has been happening behind the scenes.
But the eCOGRA involvement in bringing this issue to a fair conclusion for players is not addressing the root problem at Grand Prive imo, and that is why I think your ideas have merit.
The top management at Grand Prive need to make a very serious study of the performance of their front line managers and systems, and in particular how these adversely impact their customers and their business. As we have seen here, something definitely needs to be done to prevent a recurrence of the inept way this issue was handled and further embarrassment to both eCOGRA and the many other seal holding operators.
One other point. The usual immediate reaction to incidents at seal casinos seems to be "Remove the seal" and the independent directors controlling this aspect of eCOGRA operations certainly have that power.
Kicking an offending group out on what are in most cases bad junior to middle management blunders and badly motivated decisions would seem to me to be a measure of last resort, not a knee jerk reaction bearing in mind that eCOGRA seeks to improve standards, efficiency and player treatment.
The way I see it, if eCOGRA can put outfits like Grand Prive on the right track and keep them there this is preferable to simply "firing their asses" and effectively removing otherwise acceptable venues from the choice available to players.
The important caveat here is obviously that if a seal operator does not stay on track and in compliance despite the attentions of the seal guardians, then revocation becomes the only solution if the seal is to have any value (as Vinyl points out)
Revoking a seal is a serious step that would set an example and prove that eCOGRA has teeth - but imv it should be the last and not the first option.
It is my personal belief that if Grand Prive screw-up so spectacularly again and then fail miserably (as it did here) to communicate and apply timeous remedies then its seal should be pulled. But as a consequence of not applying the standards or accepting the guidance of eCOGRA, not as a knee jerk punitive reaction every time a dispute arises.
On the fora it is sometimes easy to lose sight of the fact that Seal casinos are doing pretty well in the performance stakes - the mainly bonus and communication disputes with the 66 seal operations are a tiny percentage of the massive volumes of business handled efficiently by these venues on a daily basis. And in those incidents player complaints are handled speedily and fairly by the Fair Gaming Advocate.
If seals were revoked on some of the grounds I see called for on the fora, there would be no improvement in player treatment because there would be no seal casinos left!
The last few weeks have seen what is undeniably a very disappointing performance that is way below the standards players are entitled to expect from a "Play It Safe" seal casino, and I can therefore appreciate your reaction.
However, to present another perspective on the matter I think it should be recognised that Andrew Beveridge has played a very active role in bringing some common sense to the management of this group and getting them to sort out aggrieved players. I think the 'Meister will attest to this, as do I as we have both been ragging on eCOGRA throughout and have some knowledge on what has been happening behind the scenes.
But the eCOGRA involvement in bringing this issue to a fair conclusion for players is not addressing the root problem at Grand Prive imo, and that is why I think your ideas have merit.
The top management at Grand Prive need to make a very serious study of the performance of their front line managers and systems, and in particular how these adversely impact their customers and their business. As we have seen here, something definitely needs to be done to prevent a recurrence of the inept way this issue was handled and further embarrassment to both eCOGRA and the many other seal holding operators.
One other point. The usual immediate reaction to incidents at seal casinos seems to be "Remove the seal" and the independent directors controlling this aspect of eCOGRA operations certainly have that power.
Kicking an offending group out on what are in most cases bad junior to middle management blunders and badly motivated decisions would seem to me to be a measure of last resort, not a knee jerk reaction bearing in mind that eCOGRA seeks to improve standards, efficiency and player treatment.
The way I see it, if eCOGRA can put outfits like Grand Prive on the right track and keep them there this is preferable to simply "firing their asses" and effectively removing otherwise acceptable venues from the choice available to players.
The important caveat here is obviously that if a seal operator does not stay on track and in compliance despite the attentions of the seal guardians, then revocation becomes the only solution if the seal is to have any value (as Vinyl points out)
Revoking a seal is a serious step that would set an example and prove that eCOGRA has teeth - but imv it should be the last and not the first option.
It is my personal belief that if Grand Prive screw-up so spectacularly again and then fail miserably (as it did here) to communicate and apply timeous remedies then its seal should be pulled. But as a consequence of not applying the standards or accepting the guidance of eCOGRA, not as a knee jerk punitive reaction every time a dispute arises.
On the fora it is sometimes easy to lose sight of the fact that Seal casinos are doing pretty well in the performance stakes - the mainly bonus and communication disputes with the 66 seal operations are a tiny percentage of the massive volumes of business handled efficiently by these venues on a daily basis. And in those incidents player complaints are handled speedily and fairly by the Fair Gaming Advocate.
If seals were revoked on some of the grounds I see called for on the fora, there would be no improvement in player treatment because there would be no seal casinos left!
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
DISPUTE MEDIATION
Policies and Procedures for Assistance
We are pleased to offer our assistance to players that have a grievance with an eCOGRA approved casino or poker room provided these measures are followed…
1. Please make certain that at least two weeks have passed since the problem began and all reasonable attempts have been made to negotiate a solution.
2. Please do not request assistance if you have opened multiple accounts or participated in other nefarious behavior/s.
3. We ask that you do not place posts regarding the complaint on any forums nor should you seek assistance from another third party service while we work your case. Either of these will result in the immediate termination of our assistance.
4. There is no need to include copies of correspondence to/from the casino or poker room with your claim, we will ask for these at the appropriate time if required.
5. A concise, clear and to the point summary of your situation will allow us to provide you the best service. Superfluous, nonessential, redundant verbiage will only serve to impede progress. Messages with abusive, insulting and threatening language will be ignored.
6. We will make every effort to contact you within two working days to confirm receipt and assign a case number. Thereafter, if your investigation continues we will endeavour to update you at least every other week.
7. We will use our best endeavours to resolve your problem through a process of mediation with the casino or poker room, which aims to assist you in reaching an agreed resolution of the dispute. eCOGRA does not have authority to direct any outcome to the mediation, nor does the mediation process result in a judgment or decision which is binding on either party. In the event that your grievance is caused by a material breach of the eCOGRA (eGAP) standards by the casino or poker room and this grievance remains unresolved, the casino's or poker room's seal of approval may be withdrawn, at the absolute discretion of eCOGRA's independent directors.
8. Following our preliminary investigations, should we conclude that you do not have a valid grievance we will inform you accordingly and eCOGRA's involvement in the dispute will cease.
The form below should be completed in its entirety.
PLAYER DISPUTE FORM
(fields marked with a * are required)
PERSONAL DETAILS:
Name: Mr. Ms. *
Address: *
Contact Number: *
Email: *
CASINO/POKER ROOM DETAILS:
Casino/Poker Room Name: Select Site Name -------------------- 7 Sultans Casino 777 Dragon Casino Aces High Casino All Jackpots Casino All Slots Casino Arthurian Casino Bella Vegas Casino Casino Grand Bay Casino on Net Casino UK Casino US Cinema Casino Colosseum Casino Crazy Vegas Casino Desert Dollar Casino First Web Casino Floridita Club Casino Fortune Junction Casino Fortune Room Casino Gaming Club Casino Golden Riviera Casino Grand Casino Venice Grand Hotel Casino Havana Club Casino Home Casino Jackpot City Casino Jackpot Wheel Casino Jackpots in a Flash Casino Jupiter Club Casino Kasino Grand Bay King Neptunes Casino Lake Palace Casino Lucky Nugget Casino Maple Casino Miami Paradise Casino Mummy’s Gold Casino Old Samurai Casino Orbital Casino Piggs Casino Platinum Play Casino PokerRoom.com Reef Club Casino River Belle Casino River Nile Casino Roxy Palace Casino Royal Plaza Casino Royal Vegas Casino Ruby Fortune Casino Showdown Casino Slots Royale Casino Spin Palace Casino Sun Vegas Casino Thunderluck Casino Trident Lounge Casino Vegas 7 Casino Vegas Country Casino Vegas Joker Casino Vegas Palms Casino Vegas Slot Casino Vegas Towers Casino Vegas USA Casino Vegas Villa Casino Wild Jack Casino *
Casino/Poker Room URL:
Your User Name: *
Date of Incident: Day ---- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Month ------ Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year ----- 2004 2005 2006 *
Casino/Poker Room Contact Email:
MEMBER DETAILS:
Software Provider:
Did you inform software provider of dispute: Yes No *
If so, to whom:
YOUR DISPUTE:
Your Dispute: *
By submitting this dispute I verify the information provided is accurate and true. I understand a Fair Gaming Advocate will contact me within two business days and will, at that time, provide a case number and request copies of any e-mails or other documentation they may require.
Mediation is a voluntary process structured by eCOGRA as it deems most suitable after consideration of the circumstances of each dispute. eCOGRA acting as mediator facilitates the resolution of disputes; eCOGRA does not act as arbitrator, nor does it make decisions binding on either party to the dispute.
eCOGRA may at any time, at the absolute discretion of its directors, terminate the mediation process and is under no obligation to assist either party in any other form of dispute resolution.
By using our mediation service you agree that you have no entitlement to claim in respect of the mediation outcome. Accordingly, eCOGRA accepts no liability for any loss, damage, loss of opportunity or inconvenience arising from any dispute between a player and a casino or poker room, the failure of a party to comply with the mediation process and/or any agreement reached between the parties, or the conduct of eCOGRA in relation to the dispute.
********************************************************
I'm thinking most players unknowingly violate rule #3 about 50 times before they submit their eCOGRA complaint.
After eCOGRA throughly covers themselves at the end...I'm thinking this avenue is currently pretty weak.
Maybe their seal is only important as long as the casinos think it is important to the players...like being voted "top site" at Gambing.Com use to be. Was important to the casinos until they found it did not matter to the players.
Just a thought,
the dUck
Policies and Procedures for Assistance
We are pleased to offer our assistance to players that have a grievance with an eCOGRA approved casino or poker room provided these measures are followed…
1. Please make certain that at least two weeks have passed since the problem began and all reasonable attempts have been made to negotiate a solution.
2. Please do not request assistance if you have opened multiple accounts or participated in other nefarious behavior/s.
3. We ask that you do not place posts regarding the complaint on any forums nor should you seek assistance from another third party service while we work your case. Either of these will result in the immediate termination of our assistance.
4. There is no need to include copies of correspondence to/from the casino or poker room with your claim, we will ask for these at the appropriate time if required.
5. A concise, clear and to the point summary of your situation will allow us to provide you the best service. Superfluous, nonessential, redundant verbiage will only serve to impede progress. Messages with abusive, insulting and threatening language will be ignored.
6. We will make every effort to contact you within two working days to confirm receipt and assign a case number. Thereafter, if your investigation continues we will endeavour to update you at least every other week.
7. We will use our best endeavours to resolve your problem through a process of mediation with the casino or poker room, which aims to assist you in reaching an agreed resolution of the dispute. eCOGRA does not have authority to direct any outcome to the mediation, nor does the mediation process result in a judgment or decision which is binding on either party. In the event that your grievance is caused by a material breach of the eCOGRA (eGAP) standards by the casino or poker room and this grievance remains unresolved, the casino's or poker room's seal of approval may be withdrawn, at the absolute discretion of eCOGRA's independent directors.
8. Following our preliminary investigations, should we conclude that you do not have a valid grievance we will inform you accordingly and eCOGRA's involvement in the dispute will cease.
The form below should be completed in its entirety.
PLAYER DISPUTE FORM
(fields marked with a * are required)
PERSONAL DETAILS:
Name: Mr. Ms. *
Address: *
Contact Number: *
Email: *
CASINO/POKER ROOM DETAILS:
Casino/Poker Room Name: Select Site Name -------------------- 7 Sultans Casino 777 Dragon Casino Aces High Casino All Jackpots Casino All Slots Casino Arthurian Casino Bella Vegas Casino Casino Grand Bay Casino on Net Casino UK Casino US Cinema Casino Colosseum Casino Crazy Vegas Casino Desert Dollar Casino First Web Casino Floridita Club Casino Fortune Junction Casino Fortune Room Casino Gaming Club Casino Golden Riviera Casino Grand Casino Venice Grand Hotel Casino Havana Club Casino Home Casino Jackpot City Casino Jackpot Wheel Casino Jackpots in a Flash Casino Jupiter Club Casino Kasino Grand Bay King Neptunes Casino Lake Palace Casino Lucky Nugget Casino Maple Casino Miami Paradise Casino Mummy’s Gold Casino Old Samurai Casino Orbital Casino Piggs Casino Platinum Play Casino PokerRoom.com Reef Club Casino River Belle Casino River Nile Casino Roxy Palace Casino Royal Plaza Casino Royal Vegas Casino Ruby Fortune Casino Showdown Casino Slots Royale Casino Spin Palace Casino Sun Vegas Casino Thunderluck Casino Trident Lounge Casino Vegas 7 Casino Vegas Country Casino Vegas Joker Casino Vegas Palms Casino Vegas Slot Casino Vegas Towers Casino Vegas USA Casino Vegas Villa Casino Wild Jack Casino *
Casino/Poker Room URL:
Your User Name: *
Date of Incident: Day ---- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Month ------ Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec Year ----- 2004 2005 2006 *
Casino/Poker Room Contact Email:
MEMBER DETAILS:
Software Provider:
Did you inform software provider of dispute: Yes No *
If so, to whom:
YOUR DISPUTE:
Your Dispute: *
By submitting this dispute I verify the information provided is accurate and true. I understand a Fair Gaming Advocate will contact me within two business days and will, at that time, provide a case number and request copies of any e-mails or other documentation they may require.
Mediation is a voluntary process structured by eCOGRA as it deems most suitable after consideration of the circumstances of each dispute. eCOGRA acting as mediator facilitates the resolution of disputes; eCOGRA does not act as arbitrator, nor does it make decisions binding on either party to the dispute.
eCOGRA may at any time, at the absolute discretion of its directors, terminate the mediation process and is under no obligation to assist either party in any other form of dispute resolution.
By using our mediation service you agree that you have no entitlement to claim in respect of the mediation outcome. Accordingly, eCOGRA accepts no liability for any loss, damage, loss of opportunity or inconvenience arising from any dispute between a player and a casino or poker room, the failure of a party to comply with the mediation process and/or any agreement reached between the parties, or the conduct of eCOGRA in relation to the dispute.
********************************************************
I'm thinking most players unknowingly violate rule #3 about 50 times before they submit their eCOGRA complaint.
After eCOGRA throughly covers themselves at the end...I'm thinking this avenue is currently pretty weak.
Maybe their seal is only important as long as the casinos think it is important to the players...like being voted "top site" at Gambing.Com use to be. Was important to the casinos until they found it did not matter to the players.
Just a thought,
the dUck
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
This is how they work.
This how they work unfortunately. Unless I have a SPECIFIC complaint that relates to myself I cannot make a complaint. eCogra presumably monitor these more general issues. I expect players are not willing to allow the casino to continue "shafting" their forum acqaintances while this 2 week cooling off process runs it's course, as well as the time it will take to achieve a formal ruling. This does not improve players perception of the eCogra seal. If they see such problems second hand, and see that they go on for many months with different players, yet see no action from eCogra publicly; they will believe that indeed the regulation behind the seal is a little weak.
If players do not value the seal that much, there seems little incentive for casinos to worry about gaining it. Publicly losing it would be worse though, as this would probably lead to an official announcement as to why. Taking it away immediately would not encourage improvement either as the casino would be in a position where they had nothing to gain by addressing the issue.
It would be better to have an automatic review to ensure that seal standards are still being adhered to. The basic results of the review should be published, but using neutral language such as "improvements needed over the coming year", perhaps a star rating to differentiate those that just do what is required, and those who provide more than is required.
The rather formal procedure of complaining to eCogra probably puts many off, and if eCogra do not hear of any problems they will not think that a significant issue is evolving.
This how they work unfortunately. Unless I have a SPECIFIC complaint that relates to myself I cannot make a complaint. eCogra presumably monitor these more general issues. I expect players are not willing to allow the casino to continue "shafting" their forum acqaintances while this 2 week cooling off process runs it's course, as well as the time it will take to achieve a formal ruling. This does not improve players perception of the eCogra seal. If they see such problems second hand, and see that they go on for many months with different players, yet see no action from eCogra publicly; they will believe that indeed the regulation behind the seal is a little weak.
If players do not value the seal that much, there seems little incentive for casinos to worry about gaining it. Publicly losing it would be worse though, as this would probably lead to an official announcement as to why. Taking it away immediately would not encourage improvement either as the casino would be in a position where they had nothing to gain by addressing the issue.
It would be better to have an automatic review to ensure that seal standards are still being adhered to. The basic results of the review should be published, but using neutral language such as "improvements needed over the coming year", perhaps a star rating to differentiate those that just do what is required, and those who provide more than is required.
The rather formal procedure of complaining to eCogra probably puts many off, and if eCogra do not hear of any problems they will not think that a significant issue is evolving.
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- US
shheeshh.... all that bureaucratic, legalistic verbiage....they e-mail an update every other week? my goodness, that's slow..i mean, people get impatient when their money is being held hostage... the T&C's are extensive, reminiscent of those of rogue Casinos, and the whole thing looks imposing....It's like..
"WHO DARETH DISTURB THE PEACE OF THE MIGHTY eCOGRA...BEHOLD THE WRATH THAT SHALL RAIN ON THY MORTAL SOUL IF THY COMPLAINT IS NOT FOUND TRUE..."
I know, it's a commendable enterprise, but still, it's supposed to be a player-oriented concept, no? Could do with a bit of lightening up..
Cheers,
SM
"WHO DARETH DISTURB THE PEACE OF THE MIGHTY eCOGRA...BEHOLD THE WRATH THAT SHALL RAIN ON THY MORTAL SOUL IF THY COMPLAINT IS NOT FOUND TRUE..."
I know, it's a commendable enterprise, but still, it's supposed to be a player-oriented concept, no? Could do with a bit of lightening up..
Cheers,
SM
I think it must sometimes be disheartening for the London staff of eCOGRA to constantly have their integrity and motivation questioned despite the good results they produce in the mediation field - and remember that the average time for handling a dispute by the FGA is currently running at around 48-72 hours which is largely unmatched elsewhere.
We have been through this before, but it does no harm to reprise the detail if it is done constructively: the sifting through the mediation conditions (which the lawyers possibly anticipated, leading to their long-winded disclaimers because this is a legal entity that can be attacked legally and therefore has to cover its ass in some detail) and some inaccurate comments.
This is imo a logical and constructive comment, if in need of correction on one point. Reviews are automatically carried out on an annual or if necessary more frequent basis. But the suggestion for graded ratings I think may have merit as a motivational aid, and that sort of imo useful suggestion should be communicated to the CEO at eCOGRA.
From what I have seen reading the FGA's public reports in conjunction with my own impressions from the message boards and other sources, I don't think that players are intimidated by a straightforward online complaint form. But that's a matter of opinion
We have been through this before, but it does no harm to reprise the detail if it is done constructively: the sifting through the mediation conditions (which the lawyers possibly anticipated, leading to their long-winded disclaimers because this is a legal entity that can be attacked legally and therefore has to cover its ass in some detail) and some inaccurate comments.
vinylweatherman said:
This is imo a logical and constructive comment, if in need of correction on one point. Reviews are automatically carried out on an annual or if necessary more frequent basis. But the suggestion for graded ratings I think may have merit as a motivational aid, and that sort of imo useful suggestion should be communicated to the CEO at eCOGRA.
From what I have seen reading the FGA's public reports in conjunction with my own impressions from the message boards and other sources, I don't think that players are intimidated by a straightforward online complaint form. But that's a matter of opinion
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2001
- Location
- London
There are a few things ecogra need to do to take the concept forward.
1) To assure punters the games are random, they must prove it publicly. If not possible, specifically say so and why on the website.
2) Tackle adware/spyware/scumware for sealed firms publicly.
3) Tackle spam issues publicly.
4) A specific, in depth report on bonus abuse issues from top to bottom and what ecogras stance is on bone hunters meeting the terms to the penny, then cashing out.
5) Print specific instructions of how casinos should behave in relation to what specific penalty there will be for offenders, so players know where they and the casinos actually stand.
6) Open and staff their own forum for questions from the public, for I have seen 2 answers to 1 question dependant on tone. Forget the private email only lark. This would negate the need for a player representative.
The ecogra concept is sound. The problem is lack of teeth, too much self puffery and little in the way of actual grunt for difficult player issues. This would be due to the fact the financial backers have a vested interest in keeping the thing that way. For example - It would be PR folly for 888 to lose the seal, for 888 and ecogra.
1) To assure punters the games are random, they must prove it publicly. If not possible, specifically say so and why on the website.
2) Tackle adware/spyware/scumware for sealed firms publicly.
3) Tackle spam issues publicly.
4) A specific, in depth report on bonus abuse issues from top to bottom and what ecogras stance is on bone hunters meeting the terms to the penny, then cashing out.
5) Print specific instructions of how casinos should behave in relation to what specific penalty there will be for offenders, so players know where they and the casinos actually stand.
6) Open and staff their own forum for questions from the public, for I have seen 2 answers to 1 question dependant on tone. Forget the private email only lark. This would negate the need for a player representative.
The ecogra concept is sound. The problem is lack of teeth, too much self puffery and little in the way of actual grunt for difficult player issues. This would be due to the fact the financial backers have a vested interest in keeping the thing that way. For example - It would be PR folly for 888 to lose the seal, for 888 and ecogra.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Slotmachine said:
I gotta change that to "CASINOMEISTER" and stick that in the PAB section.
- Joined
- Jun 30, 1998
- Location
- Bierland
Jetset has a point here. It's easy to overlook the good - the positive things about this organization - when there are issues that one feels aren't up to par. In fact I've been reading an article lately on how this is innate in all of us - something that has been passed on for hundreds of thousands of years. The Neanderthals who went "tra-la-la-ing" to the watering hole didn't have a chance to pass their genes on. They became lunch for the sabre-tooth tigers or whatever thing was lurking by.jetset said:
So it's natural to be skeptical and cautious.
eCOGRA is young - it's dynamic and keeping good tabs on the pulse of what is going on. True it's beureucratic, it has to be. Sure there are stipulations posted on how disputes should be treated - I do the same thing with the PABs. In fact, I think I tell people to hold off posting their complaint until I get to it, but most complainers either ignore this, or they've already posted.
Like Jetset mentioned - their complaint section is fast and effective. Compare this to anyone/anything else and you'll see a big, big difference.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
eCogra
I have taken another look at the eCogra site. It seems that many of my earlier points have already been considered in the design of the review process. Monitoring of reputable fora already takes place, so it is likely that this thread and others are feeding into the eCogra system.
From the news section, it now seems that eCogra are to form a joint venture with Kahwanake to further advance the intrests of fair gaming. I have signed up for their news digest (I didn't see that on the site before), as it seems there is a 3 year development plan for them to develop enough critical mass in the industry to ensure that they are taken as seriously as a regulator in a major legal juristiction.
It's not obvious that they accept "general" comment, as this is buried in the "contact us" section. It is impossible to place such general matters in the complaint form itself as you must fill in your own account details about the casino in question. The actual E-mail address for complaints underlying the proforma is not stated, so it is not possible to override the need to fill in fields that are irrelevant for general comment.
The stated 2 weeks is due to their understanding that the casino will actually correspond with the complainant in the mean time. The seal holder is not supposed to be ignoring all E-mails etc, or refusing to pass the matter up the chain to a manager with decision making authority.
This is looking more and more like low end CS possibly having an inflated ego and making the decision themselves that they cannot possibly be wrong (by no means confined to casinos, this is a big problem with "call centres" for major companies), and thus refusing to pass the complaint up the chain, which will result in no action from management since they are unaware. Lack of a rep here that can bypass the CS does not help, and leaves only eCogra and Bryan (and other webmasters), with the contact details needed to approach higher management.
The casino group now seem to have better terms, I note that the fact that play in GBP will not qualify for the promotions is stated in several places rather than being hidden away. It's not a ban on UK players, it's a ban on our currency. Other groups have a term that states that only UK players may play in GBP, and others must choose between the US$ or their native currency if offered. This might have been a better way to address the issue of being taken for GBP bonuses by the "whores" from around the world; and would probably have prevented these problems for existing GBP players.
I have taken another look at the eCogra site. It seems that many of my earlier points have already been considered in the design of the review process. Monitoring of reputable fora already takes place, so it is likely that this thread and others are feeding into the eCogra system.
From the news section, it now seems that eCogra are to form a joint venture with Kahwanake to further advance the intrests of fair gaming. I have signed up for their news digest (I didn't see that on the site before), as it seems there is a 3 year development plan for them to develop enough critical mass in the industry to ensure that they are taken as seriously as a regulator in a major legal juristiction.
It's not obvious that they accept "general" comment, as this is buried in the "contact us" section. It is impossible to place such general matters in the complaint form itself as you must fill in your own account details about the casino in question. The actual E-mail address for complaints underlying the proforma is not stated, so it is not possible to override the need to fill in fields that are irrelevant for general comment.
The stated 2 weeks is due to their understanding that the casino will actually correspond with the complainant in the mean time. The seal holder is not supposed to be ignoring all E-mails etc, or refusing to pass the matter up the chain to a manager with decision making authority.
This is looking more and more like low end CS possibly having an inflated ego and making the decision themselves that they cannot possibly be wrong (by no means confined to casinos, this is a big problem with "call centres" for major companies), and thus refusing to pass the complaint up the chain, which will result in no action from management since they are unaware. Lack of a rep here that can bypass the CS does not help, and leaves only eCogra and Bryan (and other webmasters), with the contact details needed to approach higher management.
The casino group now seem to have better terms, I note that the fact that play in GBP will not qualify for the promotions is stated in several places rather than being hidden away. It's not a ban on UK players, it's a ban on our currency. Other groups have a term that states that only UK players may play in GBP, and others must choose between the US$ or their native currency if offered. This might have been a better way to address the issue of being taken for GBP bonuses by the "whores" from around the world; and would probably have prevented these problems for existing GBP players.
I don't want to split hairs here, because you continue to make some good points in your posts, Vinyl and that is respected - but if you wanted to contact eCOGRA "generally" I would imagine the first place on the site you would look is "contact us" As I said previously, I have yet to hear of anyone communicating with eCOGRA's CEO or the FGA who has gone unanswered.
In my personal experience, Beveridge is always prepared to consider suggestions that are courteously and professionally made. He may not always agree with you, but he will always take the time out of what must be a busy schedule to consider it.
As Bryan says, eCOGRA is a dynamic entity growing with the industry and the different developing technologies that drive it. There will always be room for improvement, which makes Beveridge's receptive character useful, and constructive suggestions like Vinyl's valuable.
Unfortunately, but perhaps understandably there is in my perception a tendency for just about every sector of the online industry to expect eCOGRA to be drawn into every contentious issue, even at one or more removes. An illustration is perhaps the organisation's current refusal to become embroiled in the often fractious and difficult to control affiliate side of the business.
This has probably not endeared eCOGRA to some webmasters hoping to use its clout with some of the top operations on the Internet to achieve their own priority objectives, but I think eCOGRA's primary focus on trying to get the casinos themselves to new levels of practice with PLAYERS as the major priority is the right way to go at this point.
Others certainly differ with my view on that, and I suspect will continue to do so. That's their prerogative.
On to the rest of your post:
The fact that you report that changes appear to have recently been made suggests to me that remedial measures may already be taking place, and there is no doubt in my mind that this is as a consequence of the player activism here, aided in no small part by some of the more energetic webmasters and eCOGRA's intervention. I take that as a positive development.
My own opinion regarding the root cause of this disgraceful Grand Prive episode is that not enough effort went into the CRM training for junior managers, hence the extraordinary arrogance and incompetence we witnessed before matters were taken in hand. The lack of player-sensitivity was astonishing.
That was probably what exacerbated the initial screw-up, which it seems to me to have revolved around bad internal communications between marketing and risk/fraud control, and ill-considered promo scheduling.
But that's speculation on my part, gleaned from watching this mess unfold over the past few weeks.
I'm pretty sure it has been something of a wake-up call for Grand Prive's owner and senior management...and I would hazard a guess that they realise they have a lot of repair work to do and will be under the player microscope for some time going forward.
That's as it should be in my opinion.
In my personal experience, Beveridge is always prepared to consider suggestions that are courteously and professionally made. He may not always agree with you, but he will always take the time out of what must be a busy schedule to consider it.
As Bryan says, eCOGRA is a dynamic entity growing with the industry and the different developing technologies that drive it. There will always be room for improvement, which makes Beveridge's receptive character useful, and constructive suggestions like Vinyl's valuable.
Unfortunately, but perhaps understandably there is in my perception a tendency for just about every sector of the online industry to expect eCOGRA to be drawn into every contentious issue, even at one or more removes. An illustration is perhaps the organisation's current refusal to become embroiled in the often fractious and difficult to control affiliate side of the business.
This has probably not endeared eCOGRA to some webmasters hoping to use its clout with some of the top operations on the Internet to achieve their own priority objectives, but I think eCOGRA's primary focus on trying to get the casinos themselves to new levels of practice with PLAYERS as the major priority is the right way to go at this point.
Others certainly differ with my view on that, and I suspect will continue to do so. That's their prerogative.
On to the rest of your post:
The fact that you report that changes appear to have recently been made suggests to me that remedial measures may already be taking place, and there is no doubt in my mind that this is as a consequence of the player activism here, aided in no small part by some of the more energetic webmasters and eCOGRA's intervention. I take that as a positive development.
My own opinion regarding the root cause of this disgraceful Grand Prive episode is that not enough effort went into the CRM training for junior managers, hence the extraordinary arrogance and incompetence we witnessed before matters were taken in hand. The lack of player-sensitivity was astonishing.
That was probably what exacerbated the initial screw-up, which it seems to me to have revolved around bad internal communications between marketing and risk/fraud control, and ill-considered promo scheduling.
But that's speculation on my part, gleaned from watching this mess unfold over the past few weeks.
I'm pretty sure it has been something of a wake-up call for Grand Prive's owner and senior management...and I would hazard a guess that they realise they have a lot of repair work to do and will be under the player microscope for some time going forward.
That's as it should be in my opinion.
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- US
Casinomeister said:
Feel free
Cheers,
SM
I have played at Grand Prive for over 5 years and used to sing their praises however in the past year have seen the customer support slowly go down hill in the way of unanswered emails unreturned phone calls, phones not answered denied bonuses (even after getting the email, depositing within the time period) they even denied me a bonus because my original deposit wasn't wagered on slots, and another time because even though I had deposited between the hours of 6 pm and midnight as the email stated to do.. I didn't play all of my deposit between those hours.. which meant if I would have deposited $100.00 five minutes before midnight, I would have had to wager the whole thing in 5 minutes in order to qualify for the bonus.
In fact I know of another player this also happened to and that player emailed them and asked them exact question and the email that was received back said yes that was right, the deposit would have had to be wagered in that 5 minutes.
Problems with different answers to the same question ( Neteller problems, promotions, bonuses etc)
While I agree with what you said here Jetset, this has been an ongoing problem, it I believe has just finally come to a head because players have finally said.. enough is enough we won't be treated like this anymore. And while enough effort may not have gone into the training, some of these same people having the arrogance and lack of player-sensitivity aren't new to this casino group
I also believe the problem with the bonuses and the promos is the fact that they run a promo every single night in at least one of their casinos if not two or three of them.. and they email out these promotions and seem to get upset if people take advantage of them.
It's like a grocery store putting an ad in the paper buy one get the second one at half price and then getting mad when people come into the store.
If you don't want people at your casino or in your store buying what you are advertising than don't entice them to get there.
Just my opinion
In fact I know of another player this also happened to and that player emailed them and asked them exact question and the email that was received back said yes that was right, the deposit would have had to be wagered in that 5 minutes.
Problems with different answers to the same question ( Neteller problems, promotions, bonuses etc)
While I agree with what you said here Jetset, this has been an ongoing problem, it I believe has just finally come to a head because players have finally said.. enough is enough we won't be treated like this anymore. And while enough effort may not have gone into the training, some of these same people having the arrogance and lack of player-sensitivity aren't new to this casino group
I also believe the problem with the bonuses and the promos is the fact that they run a promo every single night in at least one of their casinos if not two or three of them.. and they email out these promotions and seem to get upset if people take advantage of them.
It's like a grocery store putting an ad in the paper buy one get the second one at half price and then getting mad when people come into the store.
If you don't want people at your casino or in your store buying what you are advertising than don't entice them to get there.
Just my opinion
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
Personal and Bogus
Subj: Where have you been?
Date: 1/13/06 10:16:03 AM Central Standard Time
From: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)
If you cannot see this message, please click here.
Dear xxxx,
Shake, rattle and roll! GET $777 FREE!
Only once have you experienced the lavish extravagance of being a Bella Vegas Online player. Since your first purchase you've not paid us a visit.
In order to bring the thrills and excitement of Bella Vegas to you, we are offering a 100% MATCH BONUS! That's right, buy $777 and get $777 FREE!
It's time to make winning beautiful with Bella Vegas Online!
After all, why should "what happens in 'Vegas, stay in 'Vegas?"
Buona Fortuna!
Tony Carrera
PITBOSS
Bella Vegas Online
Terms and Conditions apply.
Also available in CAD and Euro.
Make Winning Beautiful @ Bella Vegas Online.
Bonuses will be credited within 24 hours or on the first business day available.
Your account number is tbvrxxx0034
******************************************************
According to their website this $777 bonus is for new players...note my account number and the fact they acknowledge I have an account.
the dUck
Subj: Where have you been?
Date: 1/13/06 10:16:03 AM Central Standard Time
From: [email protected]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Sent from the Internet (Details)
If you cannot see this message, please click here.
Dear xxxx,
Shake, rattle and roll! GET $777 FREE!
Only once have you experienced the lavish extravagance of being a Bella Vegas Online player. Since your first purchase you've not paid us a visit.
In order to bring the thrills and excitement of Bella Vegas to you, we are offering a 100% MATCH BONUS! That's right, buy $777 and get $777 FREE!
It's time to make winning beautiful with Bella Vegas Online!
After all, why should "what happens in 'Vegas, stay in 'Vegas?"
Buona Fortuna!
Tony Carrera
PITBOSS
Bella Vegas Online
Terms and Conditions apply.
Also available in CAD and Euro.
Make Winning Beautiful @ Bella Vegas Online.
Bonuses will be credited within 24 hours or on the first business day available.
Your account number is tbvrxxx0034
******************************************************
According to their website this $777 bonus is for new players...note my account number and the fact they acknowledge I have an account.
the dUck
The first business day available????? Available for what? When the money is available,when they are available to credit it, the first business day they feel like crediting it?? What are they an office now that are closed on weekends?
Now doesn't that give them alot of leadway on when the bonus will be credited
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2001
- Location
- London
If this bonus is for new players only, this is not looking good for the firm.Daffy said:
The wording, email title, just before the weekend, everything about it is unnaceptable unless the bonus is availavle to those who have already played. Were there individual terms for this promo Daffy?
If not, it seems the member of staff who sent this email out actually has it in for the casino.
- Joined
- Jan 29, 2002
- Location
- USA
Daffy said:
I got the same email with account number on the email. What a joke.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
- Location
- United Kingdom
Bonus.
Well, provided players who receive this do not deposit GBP, the casino have no case for not crediting the bonus. Not only is this bulk personalised with account numbers, but it quotes information about the number of times the specific player has deposited and played. You could always pre-check with support that this E-mail is genuine before depositing, and ask for this in writing. If the E-mail is not applicable, then the casino has breached terms relating to how your personal data is handled as they have clearly passed it to a marketing contractor who has sent the mailers on their behalf, and have sent more than simply the account NUMBER.
The next available business day is simply the next working day, which in this case is Monday. Manually credited bonuses often are credited on a working day, this, in itself, does not imply trickery on the part of the casino. Many reputable casinos resolve promotions on a working day. If, however, Monday comes, and then Tuesay - with no bonus, this is a clear breach of terms. Rather than post here, players should submit this to eCogra as there seems no harm in simply depositing the $777 and waiting, no bonus - withdraw the $777 and/or complain to eCogra after allowing them 2 weeks to credit the bonus. I would suggest sending ONE E-mail stating that you will wait 2 weeks and will expect to be contacted by the casino with a proper resolution. There is sufficient "spleen" vented now to warn players of the potential pitfalls of taking these mailers at face value.
Well, provided players who receive this do not deposit GBP, the casino have no case for not crediting the bonus. Not only is this bulk personalised with account numbers, but it quotes information about the number of times the specific player has deposited and played. You could always pre-check with support that this E-mail is genuine before depositing, and ask for this in writing. If the E-mail is not applicable, then the casino has breached terms relating to how your personal data is handled as they have clearly passed it to a marketing contractor who has sent the mailers on their behalf, and have sent more than simply the account NUMBER.
The next available business day is simply the next working day, which in this case is Monday. Manually credited bonuses often are credited on a working day, this, in itself, does not imply trickery on the part of the casino. Many reputable casinos resolve promotions on a working day. If, however, Monday comes, and then Tuesay - with no bonus, this is a clear breach of terms. Rather than post here, players should submit this to eCogra as there seems no harm in simply depositing the $777 and waiting, no bonus - withdraw the $777 and/or complain to eCogra after allowing them 2 weeks to credit the bonus. I would suggest sending ONE E-mail stating that you will wait 2 weeks and will expect to be contacted by the casino with a proper resolution. There is sufficient "spleen" vented now to warn players of the potential pitfalls of taking these mailers at face value.
- Joined
- May 2, 2005
- Location
- Dallas,TX
Not me...
I don't want this bonus...it is a very restrictive MATCH with 20x WR (Denmark is 25x)...I can do better elsewhere/anywhere.
Deposit $777 and wait for eCOGRA to mediate on a bonus I'm not eligible for...no thank you...lol.
Notice the email date??? (1/13/2006)
With all the hoopla and the holiday excuses...all the apologies...all the promises...Grand Prive is still sending the "blanket" bogus personalized offers.
(That's why I posted the email.)
Furthermore, the additional info about my deposit history is an extra step to the "shady" side in MHO...I have not seen anyone post this specific complaint.
I was one of CGB's staunch supporters for years (even in this thread)...I am playing elsewhere.
the dUck
I don't want this bonus...it is a very restrictive MATCH with 20x WR (Denmark is 25x)...I can do better elsewhere/anywhere.
Deposit $777 and wait for eCOGRA to mediate on a bonus I'm not eligible for...no thank you...lol.
Notice the email date??? (1/13/2006)
With all the hoopla and the holiday excuses...all the apologies...all the promises...Grand Prive is still sending the "blanket" bogus personalized offers.
(That's why I posted the email.)
Furthermore, the additional info about my deposit history is an extra step to the "shady" side in MHO...I have not seen anyone post this specific complaint.
I was one of CGB's staunch supporters for years (even in this thread)...I am playing elsewhere.
the dUck
Last edited:
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