Captain Cooks group in trouble?

[sMeller]

Please copy and paste this email as I don't believe they would say they had a cashflow problem.

I think he is talking about this email:

Hi There,

Firstly I'd like to congratulate you on your recent win!

Currently we have limited funds in our NETeller account due to some big winners we have had in the last few weeks. Things have been so busy in here, with our recent influx of new players and with so many of them winning!

I'd like to offer to send you an Bank Wire for the full amount of your outstanding withdrawals.

We can have the wire sent off to you as soon as we receive your response to this email and it should arrive hopefully within 3-5 days of processing it.

Of course seeing as this would be a favour for us I'd like to offer to send the wire free of charge (usually the fee is around $10). This method of payment will be quicker than NETeller for receiving your withdrawal on this occasion, as it takes quite a while for us to fund our NETeller account. Of course your preferred payment method for future payments will remain as NETeller.

If you are happy for us to send an ACH please reply to this email and provide the following details of your Checking or Savings Account.

Bank Name
Bank Address (at least city, state, country)
Bank Account number
Bank Swift or Sort Code

Thanks, in advance for your understanding, I hope the lucky streak continues!

Kind regards,

Tracy
Accounts/Finance Department
Captain Cooks Casino

I have taken it from a post made in another forum July 2004.

 

[slotchik]

I am very guilty of not understanding the whole bonus thing even though I do own a gambling website and I do try to make the bonuses offered by casinos as clear as possible when I post them. But i myself when i do play at a casino, simply call up ( live chat ) and simply ask what I can and cannot play just to cover my butt should I win.

Of all the casinos out there that have been way off with their promotions and playthrough and just plain ol scamming its players, I believe captain cooks is one of the few that i would still be willing to put my money into.

The casino ( captians ) may have had good reason to do what they did, and on the other hand, they may not have. I can not judge. But I do know that their are many people out there playing with these casinos and trying to take them for everything they got. Is this wrong? well....no..its not...If I thought I knew a way to drain a casino playing fairly, then id do it without thinking twice about it.

Its funny thought how most people have never had a problem with captain Cooks casino, and I also find it strange that they have picked out only a select few and asked them not to play at their casino.

Is there a good reson for their decision? They have never done this to me or 95% of their players. Perhaps, cause I am not part of any group who goes out of its way to create havik amongs the online casinos

In closing , I will say this, I think that any casino including captains, who agree on terms with a player during signing up, should have no right to change their terms in the middle of a person playing..that is simply not fair to the player involved.

Puma

Puma which gambling website do you own??

 

[freezer]

Have the 7 days elapsed yet?

Yes, it has been close to 9 days now.

Our audit and reconciliation will be complete within 7 days of receiving
this email. We will advise you at the end of this audit of our findings
and decisions.

I emailed them 2 days ago asking for an update. I received a prompt reply that my email would be forwarded to accounts.

Glad to see my patience has been rewarded . . .

 

[Casinomeister]

As most of you know, I dont work weekends. I havent had a chance to pop in to this thread since Friday so Ill take this opportunity to make a few comments:

You seem intent on finding a snake in every bush here, Vesuvio so let me assure you there is nothing sinister or even conspiratorial involved in Casinomeister deciding to post one of our bulletins which he receives on a regular basis as part of our service to Casinomeister News. He's done it before where appropriate.

Casinomeister is a large site and the forum is only a part of it. Friday is news day when I update the news section with infopowa news, PRs, or other items of interest. Time is limited (isnt it always) and I chose to post the Integrity Casinos news item in the forum. Nothing scandalous about that last time I checked, this was still my website.

At no time was I led to believe that my behavior was unaceptable. My friend told me to deposit in GBP so I did.

And what the hell? Your friend told you to deposit in British Pounds? Are you a Brit or reside in the UK? Blimey!! What would possess you to do this? I dont know unless it was to take advantage of their bonuses. Pretty stupid in fact, since this is a major red flag for any casino operator when they start looking at their accounts.

What is a newbie supposed to think anyway? First time in an online casino and the funds are frozen and you are subtly accused of something inappropriate.

I dont believe any newbies are being affected. I havent seen or heard of any newbie posts, but then Im not through reading this thread.

Players should be worried. We have no way to ascertain the financial condition and neither do you. I have received rumors of slow affiliate pay and that isn't a good sign. Maybe Willy can address that.

No they should not be worried. Like I mentioned before and anyone who knows MG like I do would agree, you dont open a new MG casino without having appropriate funds to do so. MG wont let you; its a pretty tight organization. I have received rumors This is whats called rumor mongering.

They would probably not pass their quality standards.

I disagree. Joining eCOGRA requires a lot of commitment not just abiding by certain terms, but logistically as well. If youd notice, most of the MG casinos listed at eGOGRA are the larger casino groups that have more resources (manpower finances) to pull from. This has nothing to do with quality standards.

this group is most certainly in trouble, recently they sent out an email, in which they admitted to having finacial troubles.

This email has nothing to do with admitting to financial troubles. Captain Cooks deals with about 15 different methods of depositing and withdrawals its not just Neteller. There are times when they are shifting or transferring funds from one account to another; its pretty complex. Ive had this explained to me a couple of times in the past.

I am still waiting for the flood of complaints being lodged via the PAB. One was on Friday, and another came in yesterday both have been forwarded to the casino. (someone mentioned the PAB was intimidating?? ) Sorry about that.

Anyway, Im awaiting for more comments from the casino concerning this whole situation.

 

[Vesuvio]

Casinomeister is a large site and the forum is only a part of it. Friday is news day when I update the news section with infopowa news, PRs, or other items of interest. Time is limited (isnt it always) and I chose to post the Integrity Casinos news item in the forum. Nothing scandalous about that last time I checked, this was still my website.

Yes, I realised how this news item came about in the end! I wish you'd explained it when you replied to my post about the story a few minutes later (on Friday) - it'd have saved an awful lot of typing for both me and Jetset

And what the hell? Your friend told you to deposit in British Pounds? Are you a Brit or reside in the UK? Blimey!! What would possess you to do this? I dont know unless it was to take advantage of their bonuses. Pretty stupid in fact, since this is a major red flag for any casino operator when they start looking at their accounts.

This strikes me as totally unwarranted. If the casino terms at the time said you had to deposit in your own currency then fair enough. If they didn't they why not deposit in whichever currency you choose. I'm a Brit but often deposit in dollars, depending on how lucky I'm feeling (not very when it comes to playing slots!). What's wrong with exploiting bonuses? Isn't that why everyone takes up a casino sign-up bonus? Why wouldn't you deposit in a currency that makes the bonus a larger amount of money? (assuming you're not going to be murdered by Neteller currency conversion fees)

I dont believe any newbies are being affected. I havent seen or heard of any newbie posts, but then Im not through reading this thread.

Have a read, Bryan

No they should not be worried. Like I mentioned before and anyone who knows MG like I do would agree, you dont open a new MG casino without having appropriate funds to do so. MG wont let you; its a pretty tight organization. I have received rumors This is whats called rumor mongering.

That doesn't mean they don't have fewer appropriate funds after opening the new casino. It's very odd behaviour from an on-line casino that still requires a coherent explanation. If this wasn't an MG casino the conclusion would be quite straightforward.

I am still waiting for the flood of complaints being lodged via the PAB.

Just keep encouraging Integrity to think what they're doing's reasonable & you've got a better chance of getting your flood of complaints! How does that Chinese curse about being careful what you wish for go?

 

[profiler]

And what the hell? Your friend told you to deposit in British Pounds? Are you a Brit or reside in the UK? Blimey!! What would possess you to do this? I dont know unless it was to take advantage of their bonuses. Pretty stupid in fact, since this is a major red flag for any casino operator when they start looking at their accounts.

I think that the discussion should be about the bigger principle involved, namely that a casino should abide by the WR and other rules set out in their own T&C. Whether it is ok or not, from a moral or any other perspective, to hunt bonusses and whether or not one should ''cover'' his play in the process is in my opinion not really the issue here.

I am still waiting for the flood of complaints being lodged via the PAB. One was on Friday, and another came in yesterday both have been forwarded to the casino. (someone mentioned the PAB was intimidating?? ) Sorry about that.

Except for the fact that the Captain Cook's Group have now been holding my GBP 530 (GBP 240 of which is bonus plus winnings transferred from the bonus account to the deposit account) for over ten days and the fact that the group have not been living up to the promise of finishing the audit within 7 days, i do not see what there is to complain.

I will just wait for the group to decide my case anytime in the near future, so that i can then make up my mind about the added value of a complaint. Also, it would be helpful to know the ''industry'' consensus opinion about the above named principle first. Or is this done the other way around?

 

[Black21Jack]

And what the hell? Your friend told you to deposit in British Pounds? Are you a Brit or reside in the UK? Blimey!! What would possess you to do this? I dont know unless it was to take advantage of their bonuses. Pretty stupid in fact, since this is a major red flag for any casino operator when they start looking at their accounts.

I don't know why anyone would not play in GBP due to the strength of the currency. I have my accounts in GBP at any casinos that offer that currency, all because it is approx. $2.30 CDN to the Pound. Maybe it is becuase I never claim any bonuses that I have no problems but all of the casinos I play at make it clear when I sign up that by playing in GBP I have given up eligibility on all bonus offers from the casino.

 

[Black21Jack]

Whether I am or I am not, what is the problem with that? Nowhere on their website did I read that this was wrong or not allowed. I received no e-mails telling me this is inappropriate action. At no time was I led to believe that my behavior was unaceptable. My friend told me to deposit in GBP so I did.

To add to my above post, 90% of casinos will email you to let you know that you can't play in GBP, or they will have it stated in their T&C's which all players should read before playing at any casino. There is no excuse for not reading the T&C's If you had read the conditions you would have seen this. Every casino in the CC group have the following stated in their conditions:

6.15 Residents of the USA and Canada, and their territories, may only wager and be paid in USD or CAD. Only residents of Great Britain, and its territories, may wager and be paid in GBP. Only residents of countries that have adopted the Euro may wager and be paid in Euros. Residents of other countries must wager and be paid in USD.

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Bonuses 6.17

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Bonuses 6.15

Outdated URL (Invalid) Bonuses 6.15

No excuse, they do not have to honor your wagers if you claimed a bonus. If you didn't, you should be fine.

Edit: I just went back and read your intial post where you say that you did claim a bonus. They should return your deposits but they have no obligation to give you yor winnings. My advice as I have said many times in these forums is do not claim bonuses, you can't make any money off them and they are such a headache for such small amounts.

 

[profiler]

To add to my above post, 90% of casinos will email you to let you know that you can't play in GBP, or they will have it stated in their T&C's which all players should read before playing at any casino. There is no excuse for not reading the T&C's If you had read the conditions you would have seen this. Every casino in the CC group have the following stated in their conditions:

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Bonuses 6.17

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Bonuses 6.15

Outdated URL (Invalid) Bonuses 6.15

No excuse, they do not have to honor your wagers if you claimed a bonus. If you didn't, you should be fine.

I believe that these conditions have been added to the T&C along with the other changes made in the latest T&C update (a.o. the WR increase from 35xB(+D) to 42xB(+D)). Can anyone confirm this?

Unfortunately i do not have a copy of the former T&C. (which either proofs that i am not a professional but a ''leisure'' player, naive and of too good faith, or just plain stupid, or my printer was broken).

 

[profiler]

Bye the way Black21Jack, what do you mean by:

(...) When I was really getting to know about online gambling my first attraction was the bonuses. Then as I read more on the internet and on various forums I decided to never use a bonus and that I could make a lot more money without them. (...)

Do you have some sort of a system? Can i buy it?

The only online gambling i know of that is beatable without a bonus are such games as poker and backgammon, in which skill is the deciding factor, but since we are talking (autoplay) casino blackjack / slots / etc. here...

 

[sMeller]

I believe that these conditions have been added to the T&C along with the other changes made in the latest T&C update (a.o. the WR increase from 35xB(+D) to 42xB(+D)). Can anyone confirm this?

Yes I can confirm this. These conditions have been added very recently and was not there when I signed up.

 

[ScurvyDog]

This thread continues to stray and devolve.

If Integrity decides to declare null and void the bonuses + winnings of any player who deposited in a currency other than their own, then they also have the obligation to retroactively apply that logic as well to players who deposited in a currency other than their own and lost money, refunding their original deposit. If they retroactively apply that logic solely to winning players they deserve to be rogued, sued, and keelhauled.

The reason they chose to allow US players to deposit in pounds in the past (and the reason they manually awarded bonuses in pounds to those very same players) is because, on average, they make more money when that occurs. They're operating online casinos. They do what makes them the most money.

This whole debacle is solely about money. Integrity got hammered on the Casino Classic promotion because it got posted on assorted bonus-oriented forums. I'm sure they expected that, to some extent, but what they didn't expect is that it would make people aware that Cook's and Casino Kingdom offered decent bonuses as well. So everyone piled on in a short amount of time and they lost more money than they were comfortable with.

That's all this is about. It's not about making a stand or defining the relationship they want with players or anything like that. It's more than likely not about financial problems they're having.

More and more it's looking like a simple cash flow problem. Keep in mind that highly profitable, stable companies can experience cash flow problems all the time, depending on the nature of their business.

It appears (and yes, I say appears, as I'm not claiming to know) as if the audit is simply a delaying tactic designed to buy themselves a little time. They've had more than enough time to audit accounts and still no word or response of any sort to query emails about the state of the audit. They have to realize the backlash that would ensure if they do follow through on their veiled threats to reneg on their own published terms and conditions. More than likely this will end with a whimper, they'll pay out to nearly everyone except for the most obvious bonus abusers, and they'll be more careful about future promotions and terms they offer.

 

[Black21Jack]

That is terrible. I just did some further research using archive.org and could not find the terms I just posted above on older pages. It does not say that the terms have been updated recently so I just assumed the GBP rule had been in there for some time, I apologize. my mind is beginning to change on this group. It also states on their older terms that they offer 3 currencies; GBP, U.S. Dollar, and Euro. They go on to say that players may choose whatever currency they wish. They only stipulation was that if opening in Euro you are not eligible for progressives. I am starting to have second thoughts about depositing here, even though these changes in terms are for bonuses, and I do not claim them, I find it very sneaky and unfair.

 

[dominique]

Originally Posted by Black21Jack
(...) When I was really getting to know about online gambling my first attraction was the bonuses. Then as I read more on the internet and on various forums I decided to never use a bonus and that I could make a lot more money without them. (...)

I agree with black21jack completely.

Back in the days I was using bonuses too - the absence of wagering requirements made it easy pickings.

Today I find bonuses a good way to lose - the WR are just a trap in my opinion, and all enjoyment is taken out of playing. I have much better chances at winning without having to fill WR. I can withdraw any time I please and that has worked for me many times.

I have never thought about playing in GBP but it sounds like a good idea to me. Casinos need to clarify their positions on this.

The question here seems to be: Did they or did they not have this in their T&C at the time?

How about using the way back machine - it may show you.

 

[Stanford]

No they should not be worried. Like I mentioned before and anyone who knows MG like I do would agree, you dont open a new MG casino without having appropriate funds to do so. MG wont let you; its a pretty tight organization. I have received rumors This is whats called rumor mongering.

Thank you for your response. I acknowledge the logic in what you say.

Never the less, holding up cash-ins pending an audit is a stalling tactic and is not justified if the objective is to discover sharp players. As many players have pointed out, being a sharp player doesn't disqualify one from receiving their cash-in after meeting the terms.

Additionally, there are reports from multiple sources that they are late paying affiliates. I am not an affiliate so I will label this as a rumor in fairness. But given that I trust my sources, I consider this a real warning sign.

Despite my respect for your opinion, I will disagree in this case. Unsophisticated players should be worried and should look for another place to play. There are other good MGs where they don't have to worry about such things. If they have not played at 32Red for example, they are better off there.

I understand your opinion but I live in Texas. I heard much the same thing about Enron.

imho,
Stanford.

 

[profiler]

The new T&C have taken effect on or around wednesday the 16th of march 2005 if i am correct. Anyway, this GBP issue should not be hard to solve. If necessary i will query one of the message boards for someone will have a copy.

 

[Casinomeister]

This strikes me as totally unwarranted. If the casino terms at the time said you had to deposit in your own currency then fair enough. If they didn't they why not deposit in whichever currency you choose. I'm a Brit but often deposit in dollars, depending on how lucky I'm feeling (not very when it comes to playing slots!). What's wrong with exploiting bonuses? Isn't that why everyone takes up a casino sign-up bonus? Why wouldn't you deposit in a currency that makes the bonus a larger amount of money? (assuming you're not going to be murdered by Neteller currency conversion fees)

Many of us play in dollars because we are used to it. It was only until this mast year or so that some casinos began to accept Euros and the Pound. I play primarily with USD because Im used to it. I see no reason to switch to Euros unless I have to. I would just lose more money this way So no, I personally would not deposit in a currency that makes the bonus a larger amount. In fact, I rarely take up bonuses anyway to include signup bonuses.

I DO see it as taking advantage of the casino since this currency option is set up as a convenience for those people in other countries that wish to play in their own currencies. I dont believe that casino operators invest a shit load of time and effort to have this set up to get Joe Blow from Spoonville Alabama to deposit in GPDs. Obviously this is something that gets flagged on the casino side, and if this is something that you (third person plural) regularly do, youre probably going to have issues with the casino because they are going to have issues with you.

Just keep encouraging Integrity to think what they're doing's reasonable & you've got a better chance of getting your flood of complaints! How does that Chinese curse about being careful what you wish for go?

Who said anything about wishing? Believe me, I have much better things to do. I just want legitimate issues dealt with swiftly and fairly.

This thread continues to stray and devolve.

Sort of like Devo?

As for the T&Cs, this is a new addition; checking Googles cached page (10 March) some of these stipulations are not there.

Good post ScurvyDog. Im not sure how much is applicable, but you have made some excellent points.

 

[jpsartre]

The Grand Hotel group explicitly disallows that you play in unless you're in the UK-zone. Should be easy enough to do if the casino doesn't want players to take advantage of a bigger bonus.

 

[Black21Jack]

The Grand Hotel group explicitly disallows that you play in unless you're in the UK-zone. Should be easy enough to do if the casino doesn't want players to take advantage of a bigger bonus.

I play in GBP at all the casinos within this group. There is no problem with this unless you try and claim a bonus which I never do, and made it clear with support when I opened the accounts. In fact I had accounts in dollars and had to talk with support to have them close my dollar accounts so I could go in and open new GBP accounts. They were very helpful in getting this done.

 

[caruso]

Whoa, "Integrity Casinos Take Stand Against Bonus Scum"?

Try this one:

"Integrity casinos go the way of Golden Palace, Tropika and Goodfellas before them, "auditing" accounts on the basis of huge losses sustained from badly-conceived promotions they'd just LOVE to blame the players for taking up, with a view to confiscating winnings."

That would be my own press release.

In the first place, I have to agree that this group would appear to be in trouble, new casino notwithstanding. The one is not exclusive of the other. We have no knowledge of the license-arrangements between Microgaming and licensee, and short funds do not seem to preclude the possibility of a new operation, required for an influx of cash on the part of a desperate group. In fact, it seems perfectly sound business sense - Microgaming are not about to watch a long-time licensee, now in financial schtuck, to go down the pan without offering them a helping hand.

In the second place, audits are old news and they INVARIABLY spell disaster. Golden Palace pulled an "audit" before switching to Cytech and leaving at least $150,000 in unpaid debts; Tropika vanished into the sunset after a similar scenario - on which occasion Microgaming stepped up to the plate, as they did after Goodfella's "audit", after THAT casino folded. Then there was Gaming Club - same deal, heavy losses from an ill-conceived promo. They paid up after INSISTING they would not and were in the right! Now we have Cooks pulling an audit - and we're supposed to asume everything is fine? Why? History suggests they're in trouble - and history does not lie.

In the third place, why is this latest "audit" receiving such positive spin? This is nothing to do with "cleaning house" - Golden Palace et al all did the same, and I don't recall too many people saying that it was a particularly edifying move on the part of a forward-thinking operator back then. Rather, they were hung, drawn and quartered from all angles. The circumstances here are IDENTICAL, just on a much lower scale: players took bonuses; played; won; casino suffered heavy losses; casino "audited" and implied (thus far not carried out, I believe) that bonus funds would be confiscated (read "stolen"). THIS IS NOT NEW.

No, sorry folks, but this is just more of the same dirty tricks of years gone by.

"Cooks Threaten To Pull A Golden Palace."

Now THERE'S your headline.

Lastly, the facts here are simple: if a player plays by the rules, he is paid and THEN barred. It matters not one jot whethers he's " sharp" or a moron. He is NOT robbed. If this group fails to honour a single cashout of a rightfully-owed player, they belong in the rogue-pit. The nature of their behaviour thus far puts them well on the way - and I would advise NOONE to deposit a red cent here until this is resolved, by casino or PWC if they DO end up folding - but they can be inevitably redeemed if they, or someone acting on their behalf, pays up.

Otherwise, sayonara Integrity.

 

[dirk_dangerous]

This is a bit surprising, but I agree with most of Carusos above comments. I doubt anyone could be "abusing" Cooks current promotions; as I understand it, they just aren't that good. However, I haven't played at Cooks in long time and I haven't recently read the current terms of their promotions. I find it hard to believe anyone is taking vast sums out of their casinos.

The more likely scenario is what another poster mentioned above. The separate "bonus account" system is so complicated, cryptic and time-consuming most regular players are too overwhelmed to bother depositing at Cooks. Ive read advanced physics textbooks that were easier to understand. Moreover, even regular gamblers understand the difference between a real bonus and a fake bonus.

Frankly, any casino that overwhelms its customers with tedious details and pages of needless instructions is destined to lose customers and eventually go out of business. Lets face facts: the separate bonus account business model is ill-conceived and should be scraped by every casino that uses it.

Besides,there are better ways to structure promotions. If any casino needs advice on these methods, they can Email me. Ill be glad to help, but my consulting fees start at $2000 an hour + expenses ;-)


Cheers,
Dirk

 

[Wes Side]

I DO see it as taking advantage of the casino since this currency option is set up as a convenience for those people in other countries that wish to play in their own currencies. I don’t believe that casino operators invest a shit load of time and effort to have this set up to get Joe Blow from Spoonville Alabama to deposit in GPDs.

If they don't want Joe Blow depositing in GPD, casino operators should use some of that shit load of time and effort setting it up to make it perfectly clear in their T&C (which takes five minutes to do) or have the software not allow it to obvious addresses such as U.S. ones.

If a casino is too cheap or dumb not to hire someone to look at how much a certain action might cost them, then, just like any other business, it's generally their own fault if they take a loss higher than expected. Reminds me of the big "blackjack pays 2:1" promotions a few casinos did years ago and got their clocks cleaned. They could have very easily and cheaply found out beforehand that it was not a good idea. Casinos already have a license to print money. If they are dumb enough to screw that up, then it's on them.

I've played casinos in alternative forms of currency, partly for the increased bonus, but also it can be more fun. It's a minor thing, similar to going to Canada and buying things with "toonies" and "loonies" instead of dollars.

These casinos make people jump through hoops just to figure out how getting a bonus even works, and then with the often very high wagering requirements, the casino winds up keeping a good portion of the offered bonus money anyway. And with high wagering requirements, the risk of busting out is very real, and then no bonus is paid out at all.

If the Cook's group keeps a single cent of anyone's bonus money or winnings, I expect they will be pretty much through. They offered a bonus, people took them up on it, and now they cry foul. If someone has multiple accounts at one casino, that's different, and maybe that really is the reason for the audit, that they think all of the losses are from a small group using multiple fake names and addresses. I think it's simply that word got out about how to have a good chance at making money from their bonuses and they weren't expecting that many new players using their brains.

 

[Timer]

If the current Captain Cooks/Casino Classic situation isn't resolved to my satisfaction by Friday then I will officially "Pitch a Bitch."

I've waited long enough. They are stalling, plain and simple. It's been over ten days.

I reiterate: I thoroughly read the T&C before playing. I did nothing wrong.

As far as I'm concerned they haven't got a leg to stand on.

Pay up.

 

[wobble33]

guys
gee whizz, i used to love this casino..........but reading this thread........i wont be back. you cant just take peoples money off them because they have won via the bonus account playing ex number of hands to meet the wr? i remember when wagering was x20 for black jack and video poker, just about a few months back..........now x45, and still moaning because people win! pleased bryan didnt hit his 10k win off video poker at casino kingdom when wr was x45, but bryan probally didnt play with a bonus. but lets say you do hit a massive win in bonus account with x45 wr, u would have no chance of keeping it. then if you played black jack for days on end, to keep this bonus, u get classed as a sharp player??? something not right here i think, anyway just my 2p worth..

 

[paul1]

The more likely scenario is what another poster mentioned above. The separate "bonus account" system is so complicated, cryptic and time-consuming most regular players are too overwhelmed to bother depositing at Cooks. Ive read advanced physics textbooks that were easier to understand.

lol, you can say THAT again. omg, I was looking at them about six months ago and thought to myself, "who needs this crap?" I was TOTALLY confused.