Captain Cooks group in trouble?

[Agamemnon]

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Ah, well.
So much for that then.
I've waited to see what their actions would be regarding players who -for whatever reason- played according to their WR.
Although Bryan summed it up impeccably earlier, I feel a need to address in summation the situation as I had early on in this thread voiced restraint in passing judgement on ICL.
As it now seems that they intend to not only ban players who they deem to play in a certain manner (a decision which despite it's blood pressure raising potential in the forums I find as within their rights) but also to retroactively deny those players their winnings, I have to state my belief that their actions are in the wrong.
So,

-ICL deserve most of what's coming to them.
-I'm very disappointed. I've been watching with rapt fascination a hitherto dependable operator implode their reputation among good people by making some extremely ill-advised decisions.
-I hope they reconsider. Untill they do, I cannot in good conscience recommend them.
-Posters are right. ICL should be pressured beyond the 10% who will PAB here. They should be told by the community that their behaviour will be brought up in as many discussions as possible.
-Kudos to Vesuvio for bringing this up.

and finally,

Great thread everybody.
It makes the old adrenaline rush here at meisterland.

 

[Stanford]

Well Done CasinoMeister

Bryan,

I liked your post.

I know sometimes players react harshly and that's ok - we can. We are for early warning.

But I also know you have to do the hard work and reacting so harshly that the casino has no upside in doing the right thing is great for grandstanding but poor for negotiations. I know you would not have taken this step at this point other than your concern for the player.

I also don't take any joy in seeing the Cook group go down the tubes. Heck, they were one of the first groups I played. Kingdom was the casino I use to pull up and throw money into when I was showing friends or neighbors. This isn't good for Cook, MG or the industry.

I also thank Faircasino.Com and The Players Union for also taking a stand in this matter. And I would bet Jetset and SpearMaster are also working behind the scenes.

Hopefully, this isn't over yet. But in the interim - thanks guys for standing up for the player community.

Stanford.

 

[StinkBug]

Thanks Buddy

It's been said but I'll say it again. Thanks Casinomeister. Even though nothing is apparently happening - must still be "investigating". I derive some sort of solice from the fact that it would seem that I have someone working on my case. I don't feel like I am totally in the dark here and just getting screwed and ignored (had to add this guy...it makes me laugh :xxx ).

As far as negotiations - what negotiations? All CCC has said is that you (me) aren't getting any of your money. That's not negotiating, that robbery. If they want to negotiate then they need to be a little more forth coming with some information. I notice that the "casino reps" seem to have lost their internet connection.

 

[kavaman]

good one.

Good decision CM!

What i am wondering, that if they are not having financial difficulties why arent they paying their poker room players either. Surely the poker room players cant have done anything wrong what goes to wagering requirements and bonus abuse.

I am now reffering to what case wrote on page 25 of this thread.

-kavaman

 

[largeeyes]

Well put Bryan. I am now on day 14 of waiting on a cashout, despite being a "VIP". Disappointing to say the least.

 

[kokoneezz]

I guess I'm Lucky that I got paid in 3 days from the day of my request. My money was put into my netteler today.

 

[freezer]

ICL is still stalling me. They actually had the nerve to tell me one of the reasons the audit was taking so long was because they had to keep responding to player emails . All I did was send a short email a few days after the audit was supposed to be done asking for an update and an estimated time to completion. Hmm, maybe they would have more time if they told the front line support people (which always seem to respond fast even though they usually can't help) to send out the form letters instead of the accounts people .

I feel like an inmate on deathrow waiting for the governor to call . I would PAB but I seem to be in a limbo status. I'm not willing to give up my bonus and winnings yet. If I only wanted my deposit back, I would PAB. My guess is that they are already receiving pressure to finish the audits and get back to everyone ASAP so it looks like I will have to wait for a verdict on my account until I should PAB or should I do it now?

Does anyone know if it would be a good idea to file individual complaints at this time with the Kahnawake Gaming Commission, the Interactive Gaming Council, or even MicroGaming? I tried searching for old posts about this but could only find stuff on the KGC and the few posts I found seem to not speak highly of them.

 

[2brnot2b]

Just wondering, are all affiliates of ICL has been paid yet?

 

[paul02085]

Good decision CM!

What i am wondering, that if they are not having financial difficulties why arent they paying their poker room players either. Surely the poker room players cant have done anything wrong what goes to wagering requirements and bonus abuse.

I am now reffering to what case wrote on page 25 of this thread.

-kavaman

Excellent point Kavaman. This sounds more and more like a group in financial trouble than a bonus issue.

I think in the end Microgaming will force these guys to pay up or will cover the players themselves.

Also kudos to meister for doing the right thing.

 

[The Dude]

Maybe the answer lies in this press release?? I don't know.

PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE


CASINO REWARDS ANNOUNCES ACQUISITION OF INTEGRITY CASINOS

25 March 2005 Casino Rewards Group, operators of leading casinos including Blackjack Ballroom and Golden Tiger, and Integrity Casinos Limited, operators of the long established Captain Cooks Casino, today announced that the companies have reached an agreement under which Casino Rewards will acquire all Integrity gaming entities.

Jamie Taylor from Casino Rewards stated, "The Casino Rewards Group and ICL are both Microgaming powered groups and share complementary business models, which will allow easy integration of ICLs product offerings and most importantly uninterrupted provision of service for all ICL players. This acquisition is an exciting opportunity that will make Casino Rewards a stronger company with increased opportunities for growth and greater resources to offer clients. ICL brings a suite of long standing and well respected brands, which really made the acquisition an easy decision, we cant wait to get the operational ball rolling, and put an end to the unfounded speculation regarding delayed payments.

Casino Rewards has emphasized that all players and affiliates will incur no intended disruption to business at ICL, with all player and affiliate accounts to continue and be paid as per standard trading terms.

About Casino Rewards

Casino Rewards has been a leader in the gaming industry for more than four years and is a member of the Interactive Gaming Council operating under their code of conduct guaranteeing fair and honest gaming. They operate 7 casino brands and 3 poker sites and are recognized as some of the most respected casino brands in the gaming industry, providing unparalleled, friendly, and professional 24/7 customer support, great value and the most rewarding promotions available anywhere online.

Casino Rewards casinos have been applauded for Privacy and Security Policies, state-of-the-art technology, guaranteed fast payouts, and commitment to customer care. Casino Rewards pride themselves on offering customers a complete gaming experience with promotions rewarding those that regularly play at Casino Rewards Casinos.

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About Integrity Casinos

Commencing in 1999 Integrity Casinos made its debut in online gaming with Captain Cooks Casino, which has become one of the most trusted and established online casinos. Integrity later added Casino Kingdom, Captain Cooks Poker and more recently Casino Classic to its gaming suite..

Utilising Microgaming software and licensed in Kahnawake, Integrity Casinos prides itself in exceptional 24/7 player support and has been the recipient of multiple industry awards.

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[Thanir]

So what does this mean for those of us that have held funds at ICL? Do we now have a better chance to receive our money?

 

[120sam]

unfounded speculation regarding delayed payments

Sounds good to me, they're just delayed now. If I might be pardoned a bit more unfounded speculation, looks like the old owners were plundering the ship for all they could before the handover. Hope the new owners got a hefty discount for all the damage done to goodwill in the last 2 weeks. I'd be amazed if the Casino Rewards group didn't start things off by paying all monies owed. Can't see what else they can do really. But I'm just speculating of course.

 

[jetset]

So what does this mean for those of us that have held funds at ICL? Do we now have a better chance to receive our money?

That's the 64 000 dollar question alright, and it is a pity that it has not been addressed from the get go in this press release, bearing in mind the topicality of this bonusing issue.

I guess that the new owner has to get his feet under the table and he will obviously be treating this highly damaging situation as a priority.

The removal of the stubborn mindset of the former owner of ICL on this issue from the equation is probably a positive element that clears the way for the new owners to tackle these unjust disqualifications.

I would think that that has to be sorted out before they can make real progress in regaining credibility and business. In the meantime the pressure will remain on.

 

[Vesuvio]

Curiouser and curiouser... You've got to love "unfounded speculation regarding delayed payments"! So no payments are currently delayed? Or it was unreasonable to assume that ICL were planning not to pay winnings to a large number of their customers? Casino Rewards need to learn from ICL's PR mistakes - especially as they should have a clean slate and no reason to hide the truth.

Let's hope Casino Rewards will honour all the withdrawals ICL were trying to renege on. I wouldn't be suprised if rather than paying any fee to 'acquire' ICL they simply agreed to take over their debts. Certainly if they don't pay out to all the customers owed the acquired brands will be worthless and Casino Rewards themselves will be damaged.

It would be interesting to hear the ICL rep's take on this before his company heads into oblivion.

 

[jetset]

The ICL management has lost credibility with several people who have been in repeated contact with them over this issue, due to their not disclosing that a change of ownership was under active negotiation (news of which only started filtering through yesterday morning from other sources) That was a breach of good faith that will be remembered.

However, on to the present and hopefully a more positive approach.

I've just been re-reading the covering email Jamie Taylor despatched with this press release and I am encouraged by the following comment:

"I know you have had some concerns with the non payment of some Captain Cooks players lately due to (wager) turnover requirements. I give you my guarantee that this is a high priority for us and will be resolved next week as we take over the operations."

 

[Vesuvio]

It does all sound much more hopeful, though one note of caution is that Casino Rewards is another group which has had 'issues' with its bonus policies, isn't a member of eCogra and none of their casinos appear on the 'accredited' list (though I'm not sure anything should be read into that).

Anyway, fingers crossed that this saga can be successfully resolved!

 

[profiler]

What an amazing turn of events! Somehow all that has been said in this discussion seems to now fall in context. Nevertheless, i will go ahead today and file my PAB for the dossier.

I would already like to compliment all that have shown commitment to a just resolution of this case, be it through this thread or otherwise, especially Casinomeister, Vesuvio and jetset.

 

[jetset]

It does all sound much more hopeful, though one note of caution is that Casino Rewards is another group which has had 'issues' with its bonus policies, isn't a member of eCogra and none of their casinos appear on the 'accredited' list (though I'm not sure anything should be read into that).

Anyway, fingers crossed that this saga can be successfully resolved!

Yeah - I've just been thinking back to that Golden Tiger interlude myself!

This is a good chance for Casino Rewards to show what they're really made of.

 

[Vesuvio]

Somehow all that has been said in this discussion seems to now fall in context.

I wonder how events unfolded, though? I assume Casino Rewards saw a well-known brand in trouble and took the opportunity to acquire it at a knockdown price. Or was this all in the pipe-line when the audit began? If that was the case it wouldn't reflect well on anyone involved.

 

[120sam]

A really cynical conspiracy theorist might speculate that the whole thing had been stage managed to generate maximum publicity for the takeover and show Casino Rewards in the role of white knight saving all the poor oppressed players. Great free advertising when the "Thank you Casino Rewards" posts start flooding in.

 

[profiler]

A really cynical conspiracy theorist might speculate that the whole thing had been stage managed to generate maximum publicity for the takeover and show Casino Rewards in the role of white knight saving all the poor oppressed players. Great free advertising when the "Thank you Casino Rewards" posts start flooding in.

Oh man, that really is a great theory!

 

[The Dude]

...though one note of caution is that Casino Rewards is another group which has had 'issues' with its bonus policies, isn't a member of eCogra and none of their casinos appear on the 'accredited' list (though I'm not sure anything should be read into that)....

I should point out that the Casino Rewards group was placed on the Not Recommended section last November. This was covered in 5 November's newsletter:
https://www.casinomeister.com/newsletters/

This was the only Microgaming Casino in years to be placed here. They were there for only a couple of weeks; they were removed when they corrected this wagering requirement.

 

[The Dude]

A really cynical conspiracy theorist might speculate that the whole thing had been stage managed to generate maximum publicity for the takeover and show Casino Rewards in the role of white knight saving all the poor oppressed players. Great free advertising when the "Thank you Casino Rewards" posts start flooding in.

Sometimes ya just got to love this industry, eh?

 

[rkayn]

I wonder how events unfolded, though? I assume Casino Rewards saw a well-known brand in trouble and took the opportunity to acquire it at a knockdown price. Or was this all in the pipe-line when the audit began? If that was the case it wouldn't reflect well on anyone involved.

That was my first thought as well. I hadn't had time enough to think through the implications before I got to Sam's post, which makes a lot of sense as well. At least if he's right, everyone who's been left hanging will get paid.

 

[The Dude]

I wonder how events unfolded, though? I assume Casino Rewards saw a well-known brand in trouble and took the opportunity to acquire it at a knockdown price. Or was this all in the pipe-line when the audit began? If that was the case it wouldn't reflect well on anyone involved.

This is up to speculation at the moment, but I am sure this has been in the making for some time now. You just don't up and buy a group of Microgaming casinos - even if you're already a MG operator/owner. It's not that simple.

 

[Vesuvio]

That was my first thought as well. I hadn't had time enough to think through the implications before I got to Sam's post, which makes a lot of sense as well. At least if he's right, everyone who's been left hanging will get paid.

...& Casino Rewards should be rogued - but if they transfer say $10000 into my bank account for PR services rendered I'll turn a blind eye on this occasion

 

[amandajm]

It is funny, but the word audit does seem to mean money troubles around here.

I would guess it is not beyond the realms of possibility to sell or indeed give away a mg casino in extreme circumstances Bryan.

I would not be surprised if this is all a set up by a seller and a buyer trying to court publicity, but i don't think so. Looks more like a bail out to me after a desperate attempt by an ailing casino to grasp at the last straw.

 

[120sam]

I should point out that the Casino Rewards group was placed on the Not Recommended section last November ... They were there for only a couple of weeks; they were removed when they corrected this wagering requirement.

I'm not a cynical conspiracy theorist myself, and neither am I given to idle speculation. I prefer to take a balanced, objective view of events, as I'm sure we all do.

However, I do know a conspiracy theorist, and his imagination has been running riot since reading this. In fact he's been almost impossible to shut up. His speculations (and I hesitate to repeat such unfounded gossip) run as follows:

In November Casino Rewards unwittingly found themselves the centre of attention because of one of their bonus terms. They corrected the term and were seen to be fair, trustworthy, and responsive to the concerns of watchdogs and players. As a result, they were surprised to notice a sudden increase in turnover / new players. They immediately hired an industry expert to find out what was going on, and he reported as follows:

" ... New players were impressed by the fact that when criticism/misunderstandings/mistakes/ happen, as they often will, this group comes up trumps. This is actually more impressive to new players than a group that has a fine reputation but has never been tested ... "

Later, when they were considering how to maximise positive publicity for their future takeover of ICL, they remembered their experience in November and captain cooked up a scheme that would have the same effect, except this time it would be even better, because the original cause for complaint wouldn't be in their name, they could just come along and correct it, reaping the resulting positive publicity.

They got in touch with their industry expert again, who thought it would be a great idea, and as he posted under the name of Vesuvio at casinomeisters he was ideally placed to bring maximum attention to whatever confusion they decided to cause just before the takeover. In fact for an extra couple of big ones Vesuvio said he could get them taken off the accredited list. All they had to do was remain silent and give away as little as possible in the run-up to the takeover, and lean on ICL to do the same. Perhaps a couple of well placed but meaningless posts to wind up the online gambling community every couple of days in the run up to the takeover, but nothing more. After all, the less information they gave out, the more speculation, gossip and rumour (ie publicity) they would get. Vesuvio was even offered a hefty bonus if his thread topped 14000 hits.

At this point I told my cynical friend to shut up, I didn't want to hear any more. I strongly reprimanded him and reminded him that such speculations have no place in an informed debate, especially where the two casino groups involved have been so forthcoming. In fact I've told him in no uncertain terms that he'd be better off writing detective stories. My sole purpose in making this post is to warn other forum members of the kind of unwarranted filth that is being peddled about this subject at the moment, and to remind all to be constantly vigilant.

 

[profiler]

No way 120sam! Is this really true?

 

[Stanford]

Amazing News

As everyone notes, Casino Rewards have had similar problems. Checking the number of past threads, they may have been the most troubling of the MG casinos.

My advice is for players to continue to avoid these casinos pending a release that (in no uncertain terms) says the new owners will never reneg on a player who completes the terms of a promotion other than fraud. And will not confiscate deposits under any scenario. And will not release players private information to others.

My own read on the conspiracies is that Casino Rewards requested the audit of players to identify advantage players prior to the take over and as a condition of the deal. Had Casino Rewards acquired and then immediately commenced hostilities against long term players it would reflect badly on them.

Cook/Kingdom had been solid when others faltered and in the old days of the $19 per month bonus and $26 per month bonus - I am sure they built up quite a data base of players at all skill levels. In the new age of bonus accounts, 35/42 turnover requirements, turnover requirements on winnings, high minimum cash out requirements, etc. - I am sure that the depletion of their base was not pro rata with the more advanced players better able to justify continued patronage.

Failing a clear concise policy statement from Casino Rewards, it might be worthwhile for some of the better-known players to jointly analyze the casinos policies after the deal is completed and issue a report and recommendation for players. The industry watchdogs could then address that report with owners as they see fit, but it would be a good guide for players generally, given the spotted history of the Casino Rewards Group.

In any event, I think we need to at least get a statement from Casino Rewards (true or not) of their part in the schenanigans that have marked the transfer.

imho,
Stanford.

 

[thesmiler]

Great, so ICL was taken over by the only Microgaming group I ever had serious problems with. I always got my cashout in the end, but never got a note from management that they are indeed against retroactive application of wagering requirements and that my outstanding wagering requirement on my Blackjack Ballroom account is indeed zero.

See:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/spearmaster-help-with-blackjack-ballroom.6058/

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They always seem to communicate to mediators that retroactive wagering requirements is not their policy, however I never got a confirmation, that I really have no outstanding wagering requirements on my Blackjack Ballroom account. Maybe I'll try again and inquire again if I have outstanding requirements.

 

[555YY]

i was done and didn't expect to make anymore posts regarding this issue

but i would just like to remind everyone that casino rewards frown upon you for the following

1.)depositing and playing in gbp if you're not in england and taking a promotion

2.)claiming a promotion in more than one of their casinos

so for all the players out there with more than one casino account with ICL, watch out...

 

[caruso]

Oh, the irony.

"The consensus seemed to be that the release was a definite warning for the itinerant population interested only in taking advantage of bonuses: get out of Dodge as far as the group's online casinos are concerned."

And what happened? They DID get out of Dodge.

But not the players.

The casino.

That was a breach of good faith that will be remembered.

Good, Jetset. I hope you DO remember. I hope Bryan remembers, too. I hope you both remember what it must feel like to have had the wool so soundly pulled over your eyes by the casino. I hope you're both VERY pissed off about this, and I hope you both stay that way.

NEVER, ever give an online casino the benefit of the doubt. Look where it leads.

Now we have Cooks pulling an audit - and we're supposed to asume everything is fine? Why? History suggests they're in trouble - and history does not lie.

History, again, did not lie.

 

[paul02085]

"My own read on the conspiracies is that Casino Rewards requested the audit of players to identify advantage players prior to the take over and as a condition of the deal. Had Casino Rewards acquired and then immediately commenced hostilities against long term players it would reflect badly on them."

Stanford, i think u are exactly right. In other words, Casino Rewards let Integrity take the heat for something that THEY wanted implemented. I am almost positive you are right on here.

As far as Integrity misleading Jetset, it is not surprising in a situation like this where they are about to be sold that they would not divulge this information.

 

[largeeyes]

This does have an enormous stench about it. CR is one of the few MG groups I've avoided because of their tendency to lock people's bonus accounts without much cause. This is a disappointing development on top of a disappointing development.

 

[Timer]

I have high hopes of getting my money back out of this fiasco, but that is all they are right now--hopes. I also have full faith and confidence in the Casinomeister. If anyone can get my (and your) money back it's Bryan. Bryan is not God, but I know he will do the very best he can.

However, I feel compelled to say what I've been thinking. I didn't want to post this, but I'm going to tell you what I believe is happening here. I think this whole thing is a scam. The lastest rumors are nothing but another stalling technique.

I became friends with a con man when I was young, and I learned a lot from him. He told me the most important part of the con or a scam is the stall. The better you are at stalling your suckers the longer you can keep the con going. You just keep coming up with enough credible information to keep people "hoping." In the meantime you are taking in more money from the unwary, while buying yourself precious time. No one wants to believe they were taken, and no one wants to believe anyone is dishonest, so the inherent honesty (and greed) in the majority of people is their downfall. They (we) are honest, but the people they're (we're) dealing with are anything but. So, we believe, or want to belive everything we are told.

I said in one of my first posts that this is what the whole thing smelled like to me. It's just one stall after another. OK, so now they're being taken over. Great. How long is this going to take?

I look at this whole ordeal in much the same way I look at the alien-flying saucer phenomena. Show me some proof of their existence, and i'll believe it. Until that happens, I think it's nonsense.

My experience in this matter is that I will never play in ANY online casino ever again. I won't be anywhere near satisfied until 450 is in my Neteller account. I don't (and haven't) put much credibility in any of the rumors and innuendo being posted about.

(But if it does happen, I'll also do a full mea-culpa.)

I've been around the block a couple of times, and all I can tell everybody is that when it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and walks like a duck . . . it's a goddamn duck.

 

[Stanford]

I have high hopes of getting my money back out of this fiasco, but that is all they are right now--hopes. I also have full faith and confidence in the Casinomeister.

Me too. The man has a track record. He also has some help. Don't be surprised if you find other advocates working behind the scenes.

He told me the most important part of the con or a scam is the stall. The better you are at stalling your suckers the longer you can keep the con going. You just keep coming up with enough credible information to keep people "hoping." In the meantime you are taking in more money from the unwary, while buying yourself precious time.

And here we are on good Friday and Easter Weekend. You won't get any clarrification to that well timed bombshell. A very well executed stall.

I've been around the block a couple of times, and all I can tell everybody is that when it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and walks like a duck . . . it's a goddamn duck.

Lots of people got "ducked". And that includes the watchdogs. I have seen Jetset post that he is pissed. I suspect he isn't alone.

The Meister taking down these casinos from his site was a measured step. I think he knows what he is doing and doesn't grandstand. But it isn't wise to piss of the Meister. There are other steps.

I won't be anywhere near satisfied until 450 is in my Neteller account. I don't (and haven't) put much credibility in any of the rumors and innuendo being posted about.

(But if it does happen, I'll also do a full mea-culpa.)

I think you will get your money but it is going to be an ordeal. This may have to go to MicroGaming. I believe there are good people in this fight - some of whom have not spoken up - most of us know who they are. I don't expect any positive news for a few days though.

You most likely will get paid. But that is no reason for others to compound this by playing. For God's sake players, stay away. I include Casino Rewards in my warning.

imho,
Stanford.

 

[jetset]

Oh, the irony.

"The consensus seemed to be that the release was a definite warning for the itinerant population interested only in taking advantage of bonuses: get out of Dodge as far as the group's online casinos are concerned."

And what happened? They DID get out of Dodge.

But not the players.

The casino.



Good, Jetset. I hope you DO remember. I hope Bryan remembers, too. I hope you both remember what it must feel like to have had the wool so soundly pulled over your eyes by the casino. I hope you're both VERY pissed off about this, and I hope you both stay that way.

NEVER, ever give an online casino the benefit of the doubt. Look where it leads.



History, again, did not lie.

Ho hum, I guessed it would only be a matter of time before there was another Olympian pronouncement/gloat from the Great Caruso on our activities. Always up for a negative dig is our man.

And where do you see that that passage was not absolutely correct - Tom Dick, the former owner of Integrity has actually confirmed that his motivation was primarily weeding out certain players on several occasions both publicly and to other industry folks trying to sort this mess out on behalf of the playing community.

I have yet to see proof to the contrary that his intention was not to weed out the players he didn't want and discourage them from returning.

I condemn the fact that he chose to disqualify bonuses to achieve the latter, but arguments suggesting that the weeding was not his prime motivation are speculation unbacked by anything more than conjecture.

At least the 'Meister, several other people in the business and myself actually tried, and continue to try to do something, and our intent was absolutely straight and totally opposed to the real example of casino malpractice of the bonus disqualifications.

Trying to see things from both sides is a lot better than automatically steaming in firing negative shots i.m.o.

Taking this attitude, and I quote, "NEVER, ever give an online casino the benefit of the doubt." completely discounts the many solid and professional operations out there.

 

[caruso]

I'm not sure my pronouncements are worthy of elavation to the Greek deity just yet, Jetset, but I'll take this as a Portent Of Good Things To Come.

Your press release was entirely factual.

Let's nip back a few years: "Hitler creates work for the masses and turns his country's economy round."

This press release would also have been entirely factual, because all the facts are ostensibly correct.

I challenge you to back up the assertion that my opinions are "unbalanced" with one example of this. Every issue I comment on is a balanced opinion, and it's usually vinticated. I am not pro-player or pro-casino, though as a player first I figure I should be pro-player. I called this one the moment I read about it. I said - or rather, concurred with others - that this group was in trouble. Actually, they were one step beyond trouble - they were already gone. I said history did not lie about what an "audit" means - and history, it seems, came up trumps again.

To suggest my take is "unbalanced" is raher ironic, when the press release I commented on, while entirely factual as far as it went, missed the major issue, and as such, lacked...err...balance.

People respect my opinions, so feel free to call them as "negative" as you care to - they will stand on their own merit. You yourself, in fact, have often respected them - though admittedly only when they reflect your own.

That's all I have to say on the matter of the press release. I commend both you and Bryan for the way you've gone about this, you've come up trumps as I expected you to and I'm obviously in full agreement with your stance. Long may the agreement continue, on this and future matters. I daresay it will.

(This was "Olympian Prounouncement of The Great Caruso" part Two.)

 

[jetset]

Hitler is always a good negative to labour a point and get the old emotions churning in your favour, eh?

Certainly your ego is appropriate for an Olympian, and I would definitely contest your claim to balance in many of your pronouncements from on high, or the fact that you substantiate your opinions with fact. But then we've tangled over that many times before on any number of issues where we do not see eye to eye.

This is going nowhere, and wasting bandwidth so I suggest you PM me if you wish to continue the discussion.

 

[maxlevine]

Well, I am no greek god by any means and I will give the legitimacy of this transaction the benefit of the doubt. But if Casino Rewards added this condition to the transfer of property, related to bonus-user players, I don't see how this would prevent bonus abuse. It is a constant problem that will resurface at any given time. Casinos offer bonuses, players will find a way to use them at their own advantage. Accept it and move on. Or else, aim at a smaller market.

Max

 

[Vesuvio]

And where do you see that that passage was not absolutely correct - Tom Dick, the former owner of Integrity has actually confirmed that his motivation was primarily weeding out certain players on several occasions both publicly and to other industry folks trying to sort this mess out on behalf of the playing community.

I don't want to comment on the editorial again (I've made my views clear), but doesn't the subsequent sale to Casino Rewards cast a different light on Tom Dick's motives? This isn't a rhetorical question as I simply don't know.

Does anyone know if the sale was agreed upon before the audit? If it was then, unless at CR's bidding, ICL would have no interest in discouraging advantage play. If they were contracted to pay out all their players in accordance with their t&cs then, having no further interest in the industry, they might well try to exploit all the tricks in the t&cs to pay out as little as possible - leaving CR to foot the bill for the PR disaster.

Or the whole bonus issue might just have been a smoke screen to justify an audit that was needed to determine the exact amount of funds to transfer between the two companies. The only absolutely clear thing in all this is that ICL lied to everyone concerned.

 

[clawback]

Casino rewards taking over a reputable group and quickly putting everyones backs ups no surprises there really.
My only surprise is that a group like CR can take over a good outfit bit like selling your soul to the devil.

My experience with the CR rogues are

retroactively asking me to wager on a bonus I played and fullfilled a year ago
When I enquired why they were holding me to this I was rudely told in a mantra type way that bonuses had a WR and these have to be fullfilled.
When I explained I did fulfill them a year ago the mantra continued and continued in condescending manner.
What was annoying is the funds they were holding was deposit I made without a bonus so how they decided to retroactively withhold my cash is a mystery only known by the rogues of CR.
I`m so glad i`m not caught in this CR sting and hope all those who are getting the CR torture will get whats due.

Why oh why couldn`t it be the other way like ICL taking out the CR rogues the internet would be better place without them

Goodluck all.

 

[caruso]

This is going nowhere, and wasting bandwidth so I suggest you PM me if you wish to continue the discussion.

Personally, I prefer matters pertinent to the discussion be public, not private. Anyway, no need. I've nothing to add to what I said, the circumstances have moved on a lot in the intervening ten days or so and we're all now singing from the same hymn sheet.

 

[2brnot2b]

Well, I'm one of the affiliates that they still haven't been paid yet. They promised me that I will be paid a few days ago and I have the emails from them to back it up.

Didn't want to post this earlier as I wanted to give them some time but looks like they were only giving me words and nothing else. If they would've told me in the begining that I won't get paid and not make any promises on when I will get the payment, I'm cool with that. But they said I will get paid even told me that it will be sent on that day when they sent me the last email and still nothing. I hate being promised something and made it look like it's the real thing when it's all just a lie. :icon_evil

 

[oze_male]

when it looks like a duck, smells like a duck and walks like a duck . . . it's a goddamn duck.

so true!

 

[Freudian]

Good call, Bryan. Like you I have up to now had nothing but a good impression of this group and it is saddening to see they have decided to walk down a road which will only lead them to a place they don't want to be.

Anyone in the know have any information about how MG feels about this whole affair?

 

[DiePolizeiistda]

There is some irony in the fact that the "Integrity" group whose doubtful integrity has been shown has been taken over now by the Casino "Reward" group that is exactly the other Microgaming group that is not "rewarding". My own personal experience with the casino reward group is as bad as with the Integrity group. Only with the help of a webmaster I received my money and bonus back. The bonus policy of the casino reward group reflects the same arrogance towards customers as the behavior of the Integrity group that is under scrutiny here. In both cases we are dealing with once upon a time honest and friendly MG casino groups that have developed into mean casinos with a "I don't care" attitude. Let players reply by staying away from these shops.

 

[Joannmel]

Hi ,

Now that the bleeding heart and “innocent recreational gamblers” who have posted in and completely railroaded this thread and The Casinomeister himself has “come out of the closet” as advocate for this group…I’m supposing that all casinos are now going to cower in the corner in fear of the kind of drubbing this site now trumpets as work well done , and Bonus Scabbery will remain the growth industry of the modern times.

I have to laugh at some of these…



“Very dissapointing. Another MG confiscating bonuses and/or winnings AFTER they've allowed a player to signup, deposit, wager etc”…

There is no possible way to make a judgment on how ANY Player has used/misused a casino Bonus until AFTER they have wagered with it.



“Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn - same blind defence of any casino actions showing almost no knowledge of the industry except for the frequency of affiliate payments.

and this gem …exhibiting detailed intuitive knowledge of the industry

….. “You have almost no overheads and just run a few computer servers that steadily earn you money, ruining a fair number of the lives of "Great Players" who often happen to be compulsive gamblers. Please don't try and take up the moral high ground here”



And this….





"I'm brand new to this forum and to casino wagering, and I learned a tough lesson very quickly.

So here's what happened.

A friend of mine told me about this casino (Captain Cooks) and that they had cool software, autoplay, and a great bonus offer. In fact, they were made up of three casinos, and you could play at all of them if you wanted to.



I do not believe that people posting here would consider reading between the lines of this kind of “innocent experience”



I could speculate that this person has come directly from the very popular www.bonuswhores.com site where Bonus abuse and attacking weaknesses in Casino Terms makes “heros” of non entities who’s best ever efforts in life are openly on display…



Eg.

“

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: Received one withdrawal + bonus from Cooks!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just wanted to let everyone know I just received one of my two pending cashoust (D+B!) from Cooks group. It was my only gnome account at the group, as I didnt get the chance to do the others before the problems. However, it was the largest of all my withdrawal requests, I didnt need to provide any ID, and I played only vegas strip BJ on autoplay. This account was never actually locked though and I requested the withdrawal 12 days ago. Seems like good news for all you patient whores, stay strong!







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I personally , along with my partner operate a Player Forum and have long been associated with ICL. As a individual , I support their efforts to be rid of Players who systematically rip casinos off . My own contacts within ICL have always acknowledged the existence of these Players and the effects ultimately of their actions on a much larger group. I would guess that this was no easy decision for them and I would also say that any genuine Player would support their actions….not withstanding the fact that some Players new to online gambling would see Bonus abuse as acceptable , particularly when threads like this one manage to depict it as such a worthy form of entertainment . Many reasonable people would say that , in reality , accepting a Casino bonus , setting autoplay and disengaging from any further “entertainment” constitutes something other than a leisure activity. The point here being….it is the Casinos right to make it’s own judgment and act accordingly.

I can honestly say that the Integrity group has always been there to support us in our forum and we plan to trust in and support them in anyway we can. If there is any chance for ICL to survive under it's current managment...we need to convince them that we have faith and appreciate the standard they have set. Basing my opinion on my personal experience with ICL... a great group is right now being destroyed...I for one, don't want to see that happen.

 

[555YY]

Hi ,

Now that the bleeding heart and innocent recreational gamblers who have posted in and completely railroaded this thread and The Casinomeister himself has come out of the closet as advocate for this groupIm supposing that all casinos are now going to cower in the corner in fear of the kind of drubbing this site now trumpets as work well done , and Bonus Scabbery will remain the growth industry of the modern times.

I have to laugh at some of these



Very dissapointing. Another MG confiscating bonuses and/or winnings AFTER they've allowed a player to signup, deposit, wager etc

There is no possible way to make a judgment on how ANY Player has used/misused a casino Bonus until AFTER they have wagered with it.



Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn - same blind defence of any casino actions showing almost no knowledge of the industry except for the frequency of affiliate payments.

and this gem exhibiting detailed intuitive knowledge of the industry

.. You have almost no overheads and just run a few computer servers that steadily earn you money, ruining a fair number of the lives of "Great Players" who often happen to be compulsive gamblers. Please don't try and take up the moral high ground here



And this.





"I'm brand new to this forum and to casino wagering, and I learned a tough lesson very quickly.

So here's what happened.

A friend of mine told me about this casino (Captain Cooks) and that they had cool software, autoplay, and a great bonus offer. In fact, they were made up of three casinos, and you could play at all of them if you wanted to.



I do not believe that people posting here would consider reading between the lines of this kind of innocent experience



I could speculate that this person has come directly from the very popular www.bonuswhores.com site where Bonus abuse and attacking weaknesses in Casino Terms makes heros of non entities whos best ever efforts in life are openly on display



Eg.



Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:33 am Post subject: Received one withdrawal + bonus from Cooks!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Just wanted to let everyone know I just received one of my two pending cashoust (D+B!) from Cooks group. It was my only gnome account at the group, as I didnt get the chance to do the others before the problems. However, it was the largest of all my withdrawal requests, I didnt need to provide any ID, and I played only vegas strip BJ on autoplay. This account was never actually locked though and I requested the withdrawal 12 days ago. Seems like good news for all you patient whores, stay strong!







--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I personally , along with my partner operate a Player Forum and have long been associated with ICL. As a individual , I support their efforts to be rid of Players who systematically rip casinos off . My own contacts within ICL have always acknowledged the existence of these Players and the effects ultimately of their actions on a much larger group. I would guess that this was no easy decision for them and I would also say that any genuine Player would support their actions.not withstanding the fact that some Players new to online gambling would see Bonus abuse as acceptable , particularly when threads like this one manage to depict it as such a worthy form of entertainment . Many reasonable people would say that , in reality , accepting a Casino bonus , setting autoplay and disengaging from any further entertainment constitutes something other than a leisure activity. The point here being.it is the Casinos right to make its own judgment and act accordingly.

I can honestly say that the Integrity group has always been there to support us in our forum and we plan to trust in and support them in anyway we can. If there is any chance for ICL to survive under it's current managment...we need to convince them that we have faith and appreciate the standard they have set. Basing my opinion on my personal experience with ICL... a great group is right now being destroyed...I for one, don't want to see that happen.

there so many shortcomings to your post i don't know where to begin

first of all, autoplaying or not is irrelevant in determining BONUS ABUSE. if you play on a slot, what do you do except making a bet and pushing spin? isn't that AUTOPLAY? does that mean playing slots by having a software in place to keeps on pushing spin for some determinable amount of times is some sort of an ABUSE? Why is it so in blackjack or video poker? for that matter, if autoplaying bj or vp IS abuse, then why did microgaming install the option in the first place?

second of all, you also displayed that you have no common math knowledge, a wager requirement like ICL has for the bonuses effectively negates almost all theoretical profits that would be generated by the bonus alone. do you know how much the expected loss from a 42X B+ 42X (D+Bonus Winnings) wagering requirement is? can you explain ANYONE can profit from it? do you think the wagering requirement is a factor at all? if not, why does ICL have that kind of ridiculous wr in the first place?

third, if i remember correctly, ccc has a term that says you have to complete your wagering for the bonus in 7 days, can you explain how that can be done without using autoplay? take my personal case a few months back when i won 700$ from my bonus acount and transferred it over, i have less than 3 days to complete wagering requirement for it in my real account, how would you suggest i go about completing a 30K wr in 3 days? keep in mind some people have full time jobs that require them to do other things! (gasp) besides playing casino games all day. let's play the devil's advocate for a second, if one your forum 'players' sign up thru your affiliate site, and comes to you with my exact situation, what would you personally recommend him to do? quit his job so he can finish wagering? bet 200$ per round? forfeit the winnings b/c it's OBVIOUSLY ABUSE?

lastly, mentioning another forum as if they were some instrument of evil is in pure bad taste. the only reason i can see for that is some sort jealousy/resentment b/c they probably do better (and rightly so judging by your posts) than your own forum. notice the wording "the extreme popular..." then some discrete advertisement of your own "players forum"