Brexit - whats the difference.....

[steveh35]

A long read, but I would respectfully suggest, very much worth your time.

This is by Peter Oborne, a staunch Conservative who voted for Brexit.

I'm pretty much on the opposite end of the political spectrum to him (he's a big fan of Margaret Thatcher), but I've always admired him as a decent man imbued with honesty and integrity.

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Of course changing our approach after a year’s mature reflection would need a second referendum. But I don’t believe it would be undemocratic. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since January 2016. So many of the facts have changed that it makes every kind of sense to re-examine the most important decision in decades.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

What a load of codswallop get on with it and let's be out on 12 April. "A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since 2016" pah we can't keep having votes and going in and out like the hokey cokey we voted out GET ON WITH IT!!

 

[cncas2123]

I don't think that the UK are ever going to leave the EU, far too many liberal leaning MP's don't think the 52% have a right to have their voice heard and their votes counted, they always throw out the argument " they never knew what leave meant" , " they didn't know what they were voting for" , " they have changed their minds" or some other sound byte........ added to the fact that they UK are one of the biggest nett contributors to the EU and they look like they are willing to go any lengths to stop that money walking away.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

What a load of codswallop get on with it and let's be out on 12 April. "A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since 2016" pah we can't keep having votes and going in and out like the hokey cokey we voted out GET ON WITH IT!!

Well I'm glad you at least took the time to read the article and have a think about things.....

The piece I've linked to there is a deeply thoughtful consideration of where we're at by someone who voted for Brexit and was a very strong advocate of it.

What is 'get on with it' even supposed to mean? We're basically a nation state threatening to jump off a cliff, and the best thing we can do, apparently, is 'get on with it'.

 

[thr0b]

I don't think that the UK are ever going to leave the EU, far too many liberal leaning MP's don't think the 52% have a right to have their voice heard and their votes counted, they always throw out the argument " they never knew what leave meant" , " they didn't know what they were voting for" , " they have changed their minds" or some other sound byte........ added to the fact that they UK are one of the biggest nett contributors to the EU and they look like they are willing to go any lengths to stop that money walking away.

They did have their voices heard. The role of a sensible parliament is to listen and act if the voice was sensible. As it turns out, they voted based on lies and impossibilities. So why fuck over the UK for the sake of a corrupt and advisory referendum?

 

[steveh35]

Well I'm glad you at least took the time to read the article and have a think about things.....

The piece I've linked to there is a deeply thoughtful consideration of where we're at by someone who voted for Brexit and was a very strong advocate of it.

What is 'get on with it' even supposed to mean? We're basically a nation state threatening to jump off a cliff, and the best thing we can do, apparently, is 'get on with it'.

I don't bloody need to read the article my highest GCSE is politics and I have been an advocate of leaving for over 25 years and I knew what I was voting for so I don't need patronising by Peter Oborne or any remainer.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't bloody need to read the article my highest GCSE is politics and I have been an advocate of leaving for over 25 years and I knew what I was voting for so I don't need patronising by Peter Oborne or any remainer.

Sheesh, this is the whole point, Peter Oborne was incredibly vocal for the Leave side (and voted Leave). He's wrestled with his conscience and the reality of where we've ended up, and whilst he still has no love for the EU, he's rationally concluded that any option now is going to be worse than remaining, and come with serious economic damage, along with risking the integrity of the UK itself.

 

[steveh35]

Sheesh, this is the whole point, Peter Oborne was incredibly vocal for the Leave side (and voted Leave). He's wrestled with his conscience and the reality of where we've ended up, and whilst he still has no love for the EU, he's rationally concluded that any option now is going to be worse than remaining, and come with serious economic damage, along with risking the integrity of the UK itself.

That's his business, we are British we survive when we leave on Friday with no deal the world will continue to spin, people will go out to work as normal and go home at the end of the day I am sick of all this scare stuff from people like you Chopley. Any country that become independent has to leave it's previous owners before it can thrive. We will thrive on our own and be bigger, stronger and better than ever.

 

[mack341]

A long read, but I would respectfully suggest, very much worth your time.

This is by Peter Oborne, a staunch Conservative who voted for Brexit.

I'm pretty much on the opposite end of the political spectrum to him (he's a big fan of Margaret Thatcher), but I've always admired him as a decent man imbued with honesty and integrity.

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Of course changing our approach after a year’s mature reflection would need a second referendum. But I don’t believe it would be undemocratic. A great deal of water has flowed under the bridge since January 2016. So many of the facts have changed that it makes every kind of sense to re-examine the most important decision in decades.

Finally – and without naming them – I must state that there are many MPs (and not a few journalists) still marching under the Brexit banner who will read this article with a sympathy and support they do not feel able to declare. They too have changed their minds.

I have, and must say so. Fair enough (you may think), but where is the ringing declaration of love for the European Union? We have seen the passionate beliefs of the Brexiteers. Where’s your own positivity? Where your matching passion for Remain?

I have none. Only a deep, gnawing worry that we are making a significant mistake: a worry that is growing by the hour. Call that negative, if you like, but precaution is negative – yet it is part of our kit for survival.

I come back, then, to a proposition that sounds lame – as quiet good sense so often does. Just this, and this alone. Suspending Brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative. How many important decisions in our own lives, too, have had to be taken on such a chilly and unexciting consideration? It’s time for a long pause.

I too have had a lot of time for Peter Oborne, but I'm wondering how much of his stance in this article is to do with the new editor at the mail, a staunch remainer. paul dacre was a bit more anti eu I think. The EU needs reforming, as does the UK, I know from my lifetime things are not getting better in general. Yes we've got lovely coffee shops and restaurants everywhere, technology to make our lives easier etc.. but these are not the achievements of politics, of the EU or parliament. The underlying serious issues are not even being attempted to resolve.

If you [not you chopley but in general ] come from the left side of politics, isn't it morally wrong to waste £15 billion when we have so many problems here ?

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I too have had a lot of time for Peter Oborne, but I'm wondering how much of his stance in this article is to do with the new editor at the mail, a staunch remainer. paul dacre was a bit more anti eu I think.

He resigned from a very well paid job at The Telegraph on a matter of integrity and conscience, in terms of his motivations (and whilst I often very much disagree with his politics), he is of the highest moral calibre IMO.

His Brexit piece is of great significance, if you wanted a canary in the mine when it comes to the folly of leaving, that article is it.

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[colinsunderland]

That's his business, we are British we survive when we leave on Friday with no deal the world will continue to spin, people will go out to work as normal and go home

Well apart from the people who end up losing their jobs as we aren't in the EU

 

[mack341]

He resigned from a very well paid job at The Telegraph on a matter of integrity and conscience, in terms of his motivations (and whilst I often very much disagree with his politics), he is of the highest moral calibre IMO.

His Brexit piece is of great significance, if you wanted a canary in the mine when it comes to the folly of leaving, that article is it.

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View attachment 107146

I think as journalists go in the UK he is of the highest moral calibre but editors do strongly influence writers, I think he probably does think this but the logic is weak unless there are other underlying reasons for remaining aligned to the EU. Perhaps he sees this as necessary to block some of the more extreme neo con foreign policy ffrom the US. He won't have missed the difference of opinion between the usa and eu on the iran treaty. The harsh reality though is remainers are getting into bed with blair, campbell et al, and I know peter has very little time for these individuals, so for me he needs to square that circle first before I can take him seriously on this issue.

 

[mack341]

Right knee jerking aside I'm off to read the entire piece by mr oborne, try to understand where he's coming from...

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think as journalists go in the UK he is of the highest moral calibre but editors do strongly influence writers, I think he probably does think this but the logic is weak unless there are other underlying reasons for remaining aligned to the EU. Perhaps he sees this as necessary to block some of the more extreme neo con foreign policy ffrom the US. He won't have missed the difference of opinion between the usa and eu on the iran treaty. The harsh reality though is remainers are getting into bed with blair, campbell et al, and I know peter has very little time for these individuals, so for me he needs to square that circle first before I can take him seriously on this issue.

EDIT - We've cross posted there mack, see you've just posted to say you'll read the article. Would be really interested to hear your thoughts

----------------

Can I ask you please mack, have you read the article? Oborne goes into every aspect of the situation in forensic detail, the fact he's now Remain instead of Leave doesn't mean he's 'getting into bed' with Blair and Campbell, they just happen to share the same position on a single issue.

Blair took us into an illegal war that led directly and indirectly to millions of deaths, I wouldn't give him the time of day, but he's remain. Am I 'getting into bed' with Blair because I happen to also support remain?

Let's say the guy who lives next door to you is a murderer, but he'd quite like to see a new bypass built to the next town over because the traffic is a total bitch. Maybe you also want to see a bypass built to the next town over, because the traffic is a total bitch. Are you now 'getting into bed' with a murderer because you happen to hold the same opinion about whether or not like you'd like to see a bypass built to the next town over?

Oborne is a fierce, independent voice, who will not be cajoled, threatened, or pressured into expressing anything other than his honest and considered opinion, he was a major and powerful voice for Leave, and now after three years he's had the moral courage to stand up publicly and say, 'You know what guys, I think we've got this one wrong'.

It's pretty easy to dogmatically stick to a single opinion and worldview and resist any notion whatsoever that we're anything other than right about something, admitting that we think we've called something wrong, that takes real courage.

 

[dunover]

I think you @ChopleyIOM should also take on board the remainers who have changed their minds now they've realized how successive governments have surreptitiously ensnared us further into the the E-USSR super state.

Shall we apply your idea of coercive democracy after the next general election? After 6 months of the next government's 5-year maximum term we'll just march up to the Houses and force them out because 'we've changed our minds'.

We can all get Hollywood examples to suit our arguments but the bottom line is that the people of the UK have issued Parliament with a politically-binding instruction. You and the remoaners can bleat on all day repeating the stale mantras of 'you didn't know what you were voting for' or 'you'll all lose your jobs' or 'food supplies will be jeopardized' (although much of this should have already occurred after our economy collapsed after the referendum 3 years ago ) but it won't change the fact - YOU LOST!!! Get over it.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I think you @ChopleyIOM should also take on board the remainers who have changed their minds now they've realized how successive governments have surreptitiously ensnared us further into the the E-USSR super state.

Shall we apply your idea of coercive democracy after the next general election? After 6 months of the next government's 5-year maximum term we'll just march up to the Houses and force them out because 'we've changed our minds'.

We can all get Hollywood examples to suit our arguments but the bottom line is that the people of the UK have issued Parliament with a politically-binding instruction. You and the remoaners can bleat on all day repeating the stale mantras of 'you didn't know what you were voting for' or 'you'll all lose your jobs' or 'food supplies will be jeopardized' (although much of this should have already occurred after our economy collapsed after the referendum 3 years ago ) but it won't change the fact - YOU LOST!!! Get over it.

What exactly is a 'coercive democracy'? You're just putting words together in the vague hope they'll sound impressive and dupe people into thinking they mean something, like 'Managed No Deal' (for a straight crash out No Deal) and 'Maximum Facilitation' (for the science fiction border checking in Ireland that literally doesn't exist anywhere on the planet).

The crux of a democracy is that people get to change their minds about things over time, even David Davis (arch Brexiteer nincompoop) understands that, with his statement that 'If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.'

I'll be the first to admit that Remain played its hand badly in the referendum, mostly down to Cameron having a recklessly blase approach to the whole thing, but the truth of the matter is that we do know much more about it now than we did then.

(Oh and the referendum was just advisory by the way, if it had been legally binding it would have been annulled, since the Leave campaign broke the law.)

 

[goatwack]

I find the above comment dupingly impressive

 

[steveh35]

The crux of a democracy is that people get to change their minds about things over time, even David Davis (arch Brexiteer nincompoop) understands that, with his statement that 'If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.'

You cannot have a referendum every 2 or 3 years do you think the EU will allow us in and out everytime we change our minds?

 

[dunover]

What exactly is a 'coercive democracy'? You're just putting words together in the vague hope they'll sound impressive and dupe people into thinking they mean something, like 'Managed No Deal' (for a straight crash out No Deal) and 'Maximum Facilitation' (for the science fiction border checking in Ireland that literally doesn't exist anywhere on the planet).

The crux of a democracy is that people get to change their minds about things over time, even David Davis (arch Brexiteer nincompoop) understands that, with his statement that 'If a democracy cannot change its mind, it ceases to be a democracy.'

I'll be the first to admit that Remain played its hand badly in the referendum, mostly down to Cameron having a recklessly blase approach to the whole thing, but the truth of the matter is that we do know much more about it now than we did then.

(Oh and the referendum was just advisory by the way, if it had been legally binding it would have been annulled, since the Leave campaign broke the law.)

Like the Irish and Danes had - voting until they returned the 'acceptable' result. In this case we have too MP's issuing all kinds of threats of doomsday to break the resolve of the leavers, as well as failing to follow their political instructions. I said politically binding, YOU mentioned 'legally' so don't try and twist my post ol' chap!

Last summer, well after the referendum, England lost to Croatia in the World Cup semi final. I really fancied a World Cup final match but alas it didn't occur. Can you get a campaign going please, to get FIFA to grant us a replay and have the 1-2 result overturned?? Any Wolves fans on here?

For the more rational 'mind changers' there's a General Election every 5 years or less if that's your thing.

 

[steveh35]

Like the Irish and Danes had - voting until they returned the 'acceptable' result. In this case we have too MP's issuing all kinds of threats of doomsday to break the resolve of the leavers, as well as failing to follow their political instructions. I said politically binding, YOU mentioned 'legally' so don't try and twist my post ol' chap!

Last summer, well after the referendum, England lost to Croatia in the World Cup semi final. I really fancied a World Cup final match but alas it didn't occur. Can you get a campaign going please, to get FIFA to grant us a replay and have the 1-2 result overturned?? Any Wolves fans on here?

For the more rational 'mind changers' there's a General Election every 5 years or less if that's your thing.

Remainers have this weird notion that the EU will just let us in and out whenever we feel like it, we had the vote you can't keep having them a decision was made and you think the EU 27 will say just come back to us whenever you change your minds and you can go in and out whenever you want it's fine by us.

 

[mack341]

EDIT - We've cross posted there mack, see you've just posted to say you'll read the article. Would be really interested to hear your thoughts

----------------

Can I ask you please mack, have you read the article? Oborne goes into every aspect of the situation in forensic detail, the fact he's now Remain instead of Leave doesn't mean he's 'getting into bed' with Blair and Campbell, they just happen to share the same position on a single issue.

Blair took us into an illegal war that led directly and indirectly to millions of deaths, I wouldn't give him the time of day, but he's remain. Am I 'getting into bed' with Blair because I happen to also support remain?

Let's say the guy who lives next door to you is a murderer, but he'd quite like to see a new bypass built to the next town over because the traffic is a total bitch. Maybe you also want to see a bypass built to the next town over, because the traffic is a total bitch. Are you now 'getting into bed' with a murderer because you happen to hold the same opinion about whether or not like you'd like to see a bypass built to the next town over?

Oborne is a fierce, independent voice, who will not be cajoled, threatened, or pressured into expressing anything other than his honest and considered opinion, he was a major and powerful voice for Leave, and now after three years he's had the moral courage to stand up publicly and say, 'You know what guys, I think we've got this one wrong'.

It's pretty easy to dogmatically stick to a single opinion and worldview and resist any notion whatsoever that we're anything other than right about something, admitting that we think we've called something wrong, that takes real courage.

well that was probably the longest article by Peter Oborne I've ever read, it moves one way then the other, he finishes it by saying 'suspending brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative' so he's supporting a rethink/2nd referendum, but what if the outcome is a marginal vote, say 50,000, to remain after nearly 5 years of political propaganda in that direction? It would hardly be a glowing recommendation or strong mandate.

I guess peter's seeing the world becoming more turbulent and thinks we should adopt a 'safety first' policy, we know what the EU is like and will be less vulnerable in a big federal super state.

I think if we do have to have another referendum, then signing up to the EU army and Euro currency should be mandatory for the remain decision, let's see if the remainers are so keen then, because the way I see it you can't be a half member of a club.

 

[thr0b]

Legally Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked right up until the second before we’re scheduled to leave. The EU do not want us to leave.

 

[thr0b]

well that was probably the longest article by Peter Oborne I've ever read, it moves one way then the other, he finishes it by saying 'suspending brexit will be greatly preferable to the alternative' so he's supporting a rethink/2nd referendum, but what if the outcome is a marginal vote, say 50,000, to remain after nearly 5 years of political propaganda in that direction? It would hardly be a glowing recommendation or strong mandate.

I guess peter's seeing the world becoming more turbulent and thinks we should adopt a 'safety first' policy, we know what the EU is like and will be less vulnerable in a big federal super state.

I think if we do have to have another referendum, then signing up to the EU army and Euro currency should be mandatory for the remain decision, let's see if the remainers are so keen then, because the way I see it you can't be a half member of a club.

Seems fine by me. The way forward is unions. Why cling on to a vague notion of the past being somehow better, why isolate ourselves with a local army and a local currency when our friend across the water are happy to share theirs as well?

 

[steveh35]

Legally Article 50 can be unilaterally revoked right up until the second before we’re scheduled to leave. The EU do not want us to leave.

Seriously do you really think the EU want us round the table now? We are trouble and the last thing they want is us vetoing everything left right and centre.

 

[thr0b]

We wouldn’t be.

If people stop voting for UKIP MEPs anyway.

 

[steveh35]

We wouldn’t be.

If people stop voting for UKIP MEPs anyway.

Oh dear oh dear we vote for UKIP because we don't want to be in the EU, we voted to leave how many more clues do people need that we don't want to be part of this club and if we are forced into EU elections the EU will see things it has never dreamed of.