Brexit - whats the difference.....

[dunover]

So you've thought this before, 'the EU needs an army'- a body you described as a technocracy? Who would decide the threats and whether to act?

Have you had or got any instances in mind where you'd like to see an EU army in action? [genuine threats i guess]

If there was an 'EU army' then when the going got tough, and the body bags started coming home, it would fall apart quicker than an Austin Allegro when the individual politicians of member states started thinking of their own domestic popularity and pulled their personnel out.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So you've thought this before, 'the EU needs an army'- a body you described as a technocracy? Who would decide the threats and whether to act?

Have you had or got any instances in mind where you'd like to see an EU army in action? [genuine threats i guess]

It's not something I've given a huge amount of thought to, but I don't find the concept objectionable in principle. I would imagine each nation retains its own sovereign army, but also committed to joint ventures where deemed appropriate, which would go through the usual kind of EU processes. (Admittedly somewhat labyrinth and byzantine.)

(So not a million miles away from sort of EU-centric NATO type organisation, along those sorts of lines. Plus, it's not as if the various armed forces of the EU haven't worked together in various ventures over the last few decades as it is.)

Put it this way, we clearly can't rely on the Americans for anything, given the way they've just pissed off out of Afghanistan and are clearly pursuing a clear 'America First' policy (see also, the complete lack of any sort of trade deal with them being on the horizon), so maybe we should be looking a bit closer to our own shores, our friends and allies in the EU.

EDIT - And I will just say again, the UK armed forces are really not in a good way at the moment, the Tories have stripped our operational capacity right down.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

From the piece linked here, an assessment of some of the UK's military capabilities, maybe having a few friends in an EU army wouldn't be such a bad thing? Put it this way, left to defend ourselves, we'd be fucked.

Also, this assessment is a few years old now, (2016), things have got worse since then.

If dunover is still subscribed to Private Eye, he'll be aware of how we can't even get something as simple as an armoured troop carrier right.

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● There is no military plan to defend the UK in a conventional conflict. “Counter-terrorism is the limit of up-to-date plans and preparations to secure our airspace, waters and territory . . . There is no top-to-bottom command and control mechanism, preparation or training in place for the UK armed forces [to defend home territory] . . . let alone to do so with Nato.”

● A Russian air campaign would quickly overwhelm Britain. “UK air defence now consists of the (working) Type 45 [destroyers], enough ground-based air defence to protect roughly Whitehall only, and RAF fast jets. Neither the UK homeland nor a deployed force — let alone both concurrently — could be protected from a concerted Russian air effort.”

● Navy ships and RAF planes are often deployed without adequate munitions or protections because they have grown used to depending on US forces to protect and support them. “Key capabilities such as radars, fire control systems and missile stocks are deficient.”

● The army is not equipped to fight a rival professional land force and is significantly outgunned by Russia. “The current army has grown used to operating from safe bases in the middle of its operating area, against opponents who do not manoeuvre at scale, have no protected mobility, no air defence, no substantial artillery, no electronic warfare capability, nor — especially — an air force or recourse to conventional ballistic or cruise missiles.”

● Small numbers of hugely expensive pieces of military equipment make the UK’s capabilities “extremely fragile”. It is unlikely the UK’s two new aircraft carriers, which cost £2bn each, will ever be sent within 300km of the Chinese coast, for example. “We operate platforms that we cannot afford to use fully, damage or lose — industry would take years to repair or produce more.”

● Manpower across all the forces is dangerously squeezed. “It is not necessary to shoot down all the UK’s Joint Strike Fighters, only to know how to murder in their beds the 40 or so people who can fly them.”

 

[geordiecolin]

There have always been tensions and disagreements within the EU about all manner of things, the trick these days is WE sort it all out with diplomacy instead of going to war...

I have struggled about finding the gentlest way to tell you this but the IOM is nether a part of the EU or the UK so unless you have declared yourself as being an island you are not part of the EU.
I think it may be time for Casinomeister to start a therapy section.

 

[dunover]

But we have enough firepower to protect the IoM though...

Yes, Private Eye does highlight the Ajax Armoured Vehicle debacle which is an American disaster, go back a couple of decades and we exported many of our domestically manufactured fighting vehicles, whether the Challenger, Chieftain, Warrior etc. This is a problem with tendering stuff out to companies who cannot deliver when push comes to shove. Our defence equipment is inextricably tied in to the US with reciprocal deals and many mutual purchases. BaE Systems owns Bradley a far better US developer of fighting vehicles yet somehow the contract was awarded to an as yet untested consortium. It owns Heckler and Koch too.

As for supermarkets, I can confirm today that my fortnightly shop was 100% present as usual, in spite of Brexit. Still no Haywards Strong Pickled Onions but that might be down to the decision of the chain not to sell them any more and being a mainstay of Haywards' range I doubt they've been discontinued, there won't be any product issues as onions+vinegar+spices are not affected by Brexit. I shall have to ask people on here if their particular supermarket stocks them.

 

[dunover]

I have struggled about finding the gentlest way to tell you this but the IOM is nether a part of the EU or the UK so unless you have declared yourself as being an island you are not part of the EU.
I think it may be time for Casinomeister to start a therapy section.

Makes you wonder how the IoM ever avoided famine and war having never been in the benevolent super-state?

 

[paul7388]

But we have enough firepower to protect the IoM though...

Yes, Private Eye does highlight the Ajax Armoured Vehicle debacle which is an American disaster, go back a couple of decades and we exported many of our domestically manufactured fighting vehicles, whether the Challenger, Chieftain, Warrior etc. This is a problem with tendering stuff out to companies who cannot deliver when push comes to shove. Our defence equipment is inextricably tied in to the US with reciprocal deals and many mutual purchases. BaE Systems owns Bradley a far better US developer of fighting vehicles yet somehow the contract was awarded to an as yet untested consortium. It owns Heckler and Koch too.

As for supermarkets, I can confirm today that my fortnightly shop was 100% present as usual, in spite of Brexit. Still no Haywards Strong Pickled Onions but that might be down to the decision of the chain not to sell them any more and being a mainstay of Haywards' range I doubt they've been discontinued, there won't be any product issues as onions+vinegar+spices are not affected by Brexit. I shall have to ask people on here if their particular supermarket stocks them.

Brexit or not Brexit i wonder.

Anyway to answer your question.

The Supermarkets like Asda and Tesco in Scotland do not stock Haywards Strong Pickled onions at moment. Does not even say out of stock so would make me wonder if they have stopped doing them.

They have other Hayward Pickled onions just not strong ones. Only Strong ones are like own brand or other companies.

Really wanting to say Chopley is right and Brexit caused the lack of them. But i seriously doubt the absence is connected.

 

[paul7388]

Oh Morrisons does a Hot and Spicy Haywards Pickled onion tho.

Maybe they be worth a try.

A quick google search is coming up item unavailable for strong pickled onions from everywhere including Amazon. So guessing they are no longer available.

Wow how bored am i on a week of work that i am googling Pickled Onions.

Maybe Brexit will eventually lead to the Internet leaving UK and i would have to do something meaningful with my time lol.

 

[dunover]

Oh Morrisons does a Hot and Spicy Haywards Pickled onion tho.

Maybe they be worth a try.

A quick google search is coming up item unavailable for strong pickled onions from everywhere including Amazon. So guessing they are no longer available.

Wow how bored am i on a week of work that i am googling Pickled Onions.

Maybe Brexit will eventually lead to the Internet leaving UK and i would have to do something meaningful with my time lol.

I tried them, they are vile. Spicy and sweet at the same time.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is a decent article, balances things quite nicely, insofar as Brexit is obviously, and indeed objectively, a failure when measured against all the things it promised, but not enough of a failure for there ever to be any resolution over it.

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British politics still has remainers and leavers, but those labels tend to describe emotional attachments, not policy prescriptions. Pro-Europeans are not interested in fixing Johnson’s deal, which they see as irredeemable; and leavers cannot concede that their fundamental premise was flawed. Neither side is yet ready to work with the banal reality that Brexit is an unspectacular failure: neither triumph, nor apocalypse. It is the damp smell in British politics that can be endured, but not quite ignored. The longer it is left untreated, the more expensive it will be to fix.

But there is no realistic conversation about the relationship Britain should have with the rest of Europe, if not the one it has now; and the relationship it has now is the product of avoiding realistic debate for decades. As a result, the government – and perversely the opposition too – is committed to the task of finding a purpose in something that will keep proving itself pointless.

 

[dunover]

This is a decent article, balances things quite nicely, insofar as Brexit is obviously. and indeed objectively, a failure when measured against all the things it promised, but not enough of a failure for there ever to be any resolution over it.

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British politics still has remainers and leavers, but those labels tend to describe emotional attachments, not policy prescriptions. Pro-Europeans are not interested in fixing Johnson’s deal, which they see as irredeemable; and leavers cannot concede that their fundamental premise was flawed. Neither side is yet ready to work with the banal reality that Brexit is an unspectacular failure: neither triumph, nor apocalypse. It is the damp smell in British politics that can be endured, but not quite ignored. The longer it is left untreated, the more expensive it will be to fix.

But there is no realistic conversation about the relationship Britain should have with the rest of Europe, if not the one it has now; and the relationship it has now is the product of avoiding realistic debate for decades. As a result, the government – and perversely the opposition too – is committed to the task of finding a purpose in something that will keep proving itself pointless.

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Pretty balanced and almost sensible, given it's in the Gradinua. It's pretty much how I thought it would pan out before Brexit was finally actioned last year. We would have issues, very mild or non-existent for most but harder for some. The waters would be choppy for a while until we poured the proverbial oil on them. Yes, there's pride on both sides as he says, but however bad the Brexit detractors paint things (as you have and certain elements of the media) polls still show no appetite for rejoining, very few have altered their old stance.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

I know that for some just being 'out of the EU' is the prize, that's the win in and of itself, and that's worth taking the pain for. (And I hope we're at least at the point now where we can all agree that Brexit is causing economic pain for the UK in many different ways, as the article above notes (and in fairness as I've said myself) no single thing or things that's any sort of death blow, but the 'Brexit Of Small Things' that's often referred to where a load of stuff just gets objectively worse).

And just in the last couple of days the UK government has had to delay the implementation of the UK kitemark, the replacement for the CE that's recognised all across the EU. British companies weren't even remotely ready for it and are already hurting enough on exports to the EU without more red tape thrown in their way, some EU companies were making it clear they wouldn't even bother to apply for the UK kitemark if their sales didn't justify it, there was literally no win involved for anyone except some vague notion of 'sovereignty' - so instead we're keeping the CE kitemark for another year and I suspect that when that year comes to an end we'll quietly extend again or just agree to abide to EU rules in perpetuity because doing anything else just isn't worth it.

Looking back, and being honest about the failings on both sides, I can see a world where the Norway option could have been sold as an acceptable way to get out of the EU without causing the pain, and without greatly offending Leavers or Remainers. (Lest we forget even Farage was extolling the virtues of it at one point.)

However, we are where we are, and the fallout will be continue to be felt for years to come. I've seen Brexit described as 'not a blowout, but a slow puncture' - and I think that's about right.

 

[dunover]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

I know that for some just being 'out of the EU' is the prize, that's the win in and of itself, and that's worth taking the pain for. (And I hope we're at least at the point now where we can all agree that Brexit is causing economic pain for the UK in many different ways, as the article above notes (and in fairness as I've said myself) no single thing or things that's any sort of death blow, but the 'Brexit Of Small Things' that's often referred to where a load of stuff just gets objectively worse).

And just in the last couple of days the UK government has had to delay the implementation of the UK kitemark, the replacement for the CE that's recognised all across the EU. British companies weren't even remotely ready for it and are already hurting enough on exports to the EU without more red tape thrown in their way, some EU companies were making it clear they wouldn't even bother to apply for the UK kitemark if their sales didn't justify it, there was literally no win involved for anyone except some vague notion of 'sovereignty' - so instead we're keeping the CE kitemark for another year and I suspect that when that year comes to an end we'll quietly extend again or just agree to abide to EU rules in perpetuity because doing anything else just isn't worth it.

Looking back, and being honest about the failings on both sides, I can see a world where the Norway option could have been sold as an acceptable way to get out of the EU without causing the pain, and without greatly offending Leavers or Remainers. (Lest we forget even Farage was extolling the virtues of it at one point.)

However, we are where we are, and the fallout will be continue to be felt for years to come. I've seen Brexit described as 'not a blowout, but a slow puncture' - and I think that's about right.

Yes, Norway not in the EU but in the customs union, something that the leavers in Westminster found unpalatable. Problem is, they also have free movement which I would suggest is the primary reason for most of the leave vote. So I can see why a 'Norway' would be a convenient fix to the trade issues, but you cannot it seems be in the customs union and not have free movement.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, Norway not in the EU but in the customs union, something that the leavers in Westminster found unpalatable. Problem is, they also have free movement which I would suggest is the primary reason for most of the leave vote. So I can see why a 'Norway' would be a convenient fix to the trade issues, but you cannot it seems be in the customs union and not have free movement.

I think there would have been a way to sell it to both sides though, a smarter and more nimble politician than May could have managed it I think, instead of all that horseshit about a 'Red, White and Blue Brexit' that literally meant nothing at all except getting her some favourable headlines in the Daily Mail for a bit, and then sending that intellect vacuum David Davis to the EU to have his arse handed to him on a plate by Barnier.

And look where we've ended up with freedom of movement, a massive labour shortage and various industries crying out for visa extensions to EU citizens. (Yes I appreciate Covid is all mixed up in it as well, but we're the only country in Europe with the problems currently being experienced in the UK.)

And for anyone who was (for some bizarre reason) thinking it'd make any difference to the migrants crossing the channel, that was never going to happen (as was explained at the time) and indeed hasn't happened.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Iceland's managing director explicitly calls out Brexit-related supply chain issues (NOT the pingdemic and NOT Covid) as threatening unprecedented disruption to Christmas across the UK.

Says UK Gov has dropped the ball badly in not recognising HGV drivers as a skilled profession so they can continue to use EU drivers until UK drivers can be trained and brought online (assuming they want to do the job at all).

Calls Brexit a 'self-inflicted wound'.

Who knows @dunover - maybe there will be the dreaded pigs-in-blankets shortage after all!

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[dunover]

Iceland's managing director explicitly calls out Brexit-related supply chain issues (NOT the pingdemic and NOT Covid) as threatening unprecedented disruption to Christmas across the UK.

Says UK Gov has dropped the ball badly in not recognising HGV drivers as a skilled profession so they can continue to use EU drivers until UK drivers can be trained and brought online (assuming they want to do the job at all).

Calls Brexit a 'self-inflicted wound'.

Who knows @dunover - maybe there will be the dreaded pigs-in-blankets shortage after all!

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View attachment 158054

I've just checked my stocks. We have lots of gravy granules, stuffing, Oxo cubes, mature Xmas puddings from previous years (they keep ages) crackers in a box still, table cloths disposable, Vienettas in freezer, bread sauce sachet in cupboard. I have mini-sausages in freezer and packets of bacon (easy to make your own P-i-B's) tins of chocolates, bags of nuts, boxes of liquorice allsorts, wine gums, jelly babies to put out too. So just need the meats (produced in the UK such as beef joint, turkey crown, ham joint) and fresh spuds, carrots and sprouts (again UK produced) and I'm good to go. Luckily we have 2 fridges and 2 freezers here so plenty of storage to ensure all the hungry serfs can sit outside our house on Xmas Day and breathe in the tempting smell of a full roast dinner and buffet after they've had their turkey twizzlers, mushy peas and watery gravy. I'm sure they will also have plenty of imported Chinese tat to give each other in the morning too.
Luckily I'm not a customer of the downmarket places like Iceland and Farm Fattening Foods and I'm pretty sure the upmarket shops like M&S and Waitrose or my regular supplier Fortnum and Masons will move heaven and earth to ensure we're looked after this year.
It's a fucking shame that Brexit doesn't seemed to have reduced the supply of shite TV channels or content as to lose that this December would make it almost perfect. I'm a bit fed up with The Great Escape, Sink the Bismarck! and Guns of Navarone but even that's tolerable compared to dreadful ham-acted soaps and sodding Snowman cartoons.

 

[geordiecolin]

I read this morning that the difference is a Turkey shortage during Christmas.

I understand that the time to do our xmas ordering and buying is now because there will be serious shortages and it will have little to do with Brexit

 

[geordiecolin]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

Given that the World Economic Forum have stated that there will be a new world order and that only a few Countries will dictate and dominate the world ("America will not be one of them") and that so many countries around the world are dancing to their tune (build back better etc) do you believe that the EU matters much going forward,or do you think that there will be no new world order in which so many countries are dancing to the tune of?

 

[dealer wins]

Spot on geordie!!!

 

[geordiecolin]

Spot on geordie!!!

I think that so many folk are living their lives in denial Dealer

 

[mack341]

The IOM ambassador to the EU Mr Degsy Degworth will comment shortly, once he has stopped reading about truckers and the impending milkshake crisis

 

[geordiecolin]

The IOM ambassador to the EU Mr Degsy Degworth will comment shortly, once he has stopped reading about truckers and the impending milkshake crisis.

Or maybe once the NWO has taken route he will be next found supping a few beers with his fellow ex pat David Ike in the IOM talking about how things have gone wrong?




Then again maybe not

 

[Kroffe]

Time to learn me some English.

Is expat just a fancy word for immigrant or does it have a different definition?

 

[geordiecolin]

Time to learn me some English.

Is expat just a fancy word for immigrant or does it have a different definition?

I think that in this regard it is someone you at first patted on the the back when they first arrive but then after you get what you want you do not give a shit about

 

[mack341]

I always thought it meant you were no longer impersonating Pat Jennings, hence also david icke being an ex goalkeeper?
I'll get me coat