Brexit - whats the difference.....

[dunover]

So you've thought this before, 'the EU needs an army'- a body you described as a technocracy? Who would decide the threats and whether to act?

Have you had or got any instances in mind where you'd like to see an EU army in action? [genuine threats i guess]

If there was an 'EU army' then when the going got tough, and the body bags started coming home, it would fall apart quicker than an Austin Allegro when the individual politicians of member states started thinking of their own domestic popularity and pulled their personnel out.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

So you've thought this before, 'the EU needs an army'- a body you described as a technocracy? Who would decide the threats and whether to act?

Have you had or got any instances in mind where you'd like to see an EU army in action? [genuine threats i guess]

It's not something I've given a huge amount of thought to, but I don't find the concept objectionable in principle. I would imagine each nation retains its own sovereign army, but also committed to joint ventures where deemed appropriate, which would go through the usual kind of EU processes. (Admittedly somewhat labyrinth and byzantine.)

(So not a million miles away from sort of EU-centric NATO type organisation, along those sorts of lines. Plus, it's not as if the various armed forces of the EU haven't worked together in various ventures over the last few decades as it is.)

Put it this way, we clearly can't rely on the Americans for anything, given the way they've just pissed off out of Afghanistan and are clearly pursuing a clear 'America First' policy (see also, the complete lack of any sort of trade deal with them being on the horizon), so maybe we should be looking a bit closer to our own shores, our friends and allies in the EU.

EDIT - And I will just say again, the UK armed forces are really not in a good way at the moment, the Tories have stripped our operational capacity right down.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

From the piece linked here, an assessment of some of the UK's military capabilities, maybe having a few friends in an EU army wouldn't be such a bad thing? Put it this way, left to defend ourselves, we'd be fucked.

Also, this assessment is a few years old now, (2016), things have got worse since then.

If dunover is still subscribed to Private Eye, he'll be aware of how we can't even get something as simple as an armoured troop carrier right.

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● There is no military plan to defend the UK in a conventional conflict. “Counter-terrorism is the limit of up-to-date plans and preparations to secure our airspace, waters and territory . . . There is no top-to-bottom command and control mechanism, preparation or training in place for the UK armed forces [to defend home territory] . . . let alone to do so with Nato.”

● A Russian air campaign would quickly overwhelm Britain. “UK air defence now consists of the (working) Type 45 [destroyers], enough ground-based air defence to protect roughly Whitehall only, and RAF fast jets. Neither the UK homeland nor a deployed force — let alone both concurrently — could be protected from a concerted Russian air effort.”

● Navy ships and RAF planes are often deployed without adequate munitions or protections because they have grown used to depending on US forces to protect and support them. “Key capabilities such as radars, fire control systems and missile stocks are deficient.”

● The army is not equipped to fight a rival professional land force and is significantly outgunned by Russia. “The current army has grown used to operating from safe bases in the middle of its operating area, against opponents who do not manoeuvre at scale, have no protected mobility, no air defence, no substantial artillery, no electronic warfare capability, nor — especially — an air force or recourse to conventional ballistic or cruise missiles.”

● Small numbers of hugely expensive pieces of military equipment make the UK’s capabilities “extremely fragile”. It is unlikely the UK’s two new aircraft carriers, which cost £2bn each, will ever be sent within 300km of the Chinese coast, for example. “We operate platforms that we cannot afford to use fully, damage or lose — industry would take years to repair or produce more.”

● Manpower across all the forces is dangerously squeezed. “It is not necessary to shoot down all the UK’s Joint Strike Fighters, only to know how to murder in their beds the 40 or so people who can fly them.”

 

[geordiecolin]

There have always been tensions and disagreements within the EU about all manner of things, the trick these days is WE sort it all out with diplomacy instead of going to war...

I have struggled about finding the gentlest way to tell you this but the IOM is nether a part of the EU or the UK so unless you have declared yourself as being an island you are not part of the EU.
I think it may be time for Casinomeister to start a therapy section.

 

[dunover]

But we have enough firepower to protect the IoM though...

Yes, Private Eye does highlight the Ajax Armoured Vehicle debacle which is an American disaster, go back a couple of decades and we exported many of our domestically manufactured fighting vehicles, whether the Challenger, Chieftain, Warrior etc. This is a problem with tendering stuff out to companies who cannot deliver when push comes to shove. Our defence equipment is inextricably tied in to the US with reciprocal deals and many mutual purchases. BaE Systems owns Bradley a far better US developer of fighting vehicles yet somehow the contract was awarded to an as yet untested consortium. It owns Heckler and Koch too.

As for supermarkets, I can confirm today that my fortnightly shop was 100% present as usual, in spite of Brexit. Still no Haywards Strong Pickled Onions but that might be down to the decision of the chain not to sell them any more and being a mainstay of Haywards' range I doubt they've been discontinued, there won't be any product issues as onions+vinegar+spices are not affected by Brexit. I shall have to ask people on here if their particular supermarket stocks them.

 

[dunover]

I have struggled about finding the gentlest way to tell you this but the IOM is nether a part of the EU or the UK so unless you have declared yourself as being an island you are not part of the EU.
I think it may be time for Casinomeister to start a therapy section.

Makes you wonder how the IoM ever avoided famine and war having never been in the benevolent super-state?

 

[paul7388]

But we have enough firepower to protect the IoM though...

Yes, Private Eye does highlight the Ajax Armoured Vehicle debacle which is an American disaster, go back a couple of decades and we exported many of our domestically manufactured fighting vehicles, whether the Challenger, Chieftain, Warrior etc. This is a problem with tendering stuff out to companies who cannot deliver when push comes to shove. Our defence equipment is inextricably tied in to the US with reciprocal deals and many mutual purchases. BaE Systems owns Bradley a far better US developer of fighting vehicles yet somehow the contract was awarded to an as yet untested consortium. It owns Heckler and Koch too.

As for supermarkets, I can confirm today that my fortnightly shop was 100% present as usual, in spite of Brexit. Still no Haywards Strong Pickled Onions but that might be down to the decision of the chain not to sell them any more and being a mainstay of Haywards' range I doubt they've been discontinued, there won't be any product issues as onions+vinegar+spices are not affected by Brexit. I shall have to ask people on here if their particular supermarket stocks them.

Brexit or not Brexit i wonder.

Anyway to answer your question.

The Supermarkets like Asda and Tesco in Scotland do not stock Haywards Strong Pickled onions at moment. Does not even say out of stock so would make me wonder if they have stopped doing them.

They have other Hayward Pickled onions just not strong ones. Only Strong ones are like own brand or other companies.

Really wanting to say Chopley is right and Brexit caused the lack of them. But i seriously doubt the absence is connected.

 

[paul7388]

Oh Morrisons does a Hot and Spicy Haywards Pickled onion tho.

Maybe they be worth a try.

A quick google search is coming up item unavailable for strong pickled onions from everywhere including Amazon. So guessing they are no longer available.

Wow how bored am i on a week of work that i am googling Pickled Onions.

Maybe Brexit will eventually lead to the Internet leaving UK and i would have to do something meaningful with my time lol.

 

[dunover]

Oh Morrisons does a Hot and Spicy Haywards Pickled onion tho.

Maybe they be worth a try.

A quick google search is coming up item unavailable for strong pickled onions from everywhere including Amazon. So guessing they are no longer available.

Wow how bored am i on a week of work that i am googling Pickled Onions.

Maybe Brexit will eventually lead to the Internet leaving UK and i would have to do something meaningful with my time lol.

I tried them, they are vile. Spicy and sweet at the same time.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

This is a decent article, balances things quite nicely, insofar as Brexit is obviously, and indeed objectively, a failure when measured against all the things it promised, but not enough of a failure for there ever to be any resolution over it.

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British politics still has remainers and leavers, but those labels tend to describe emotional attachments, not policy prescriptions. Pro-Europeans are not interested in fixing Johnson’s deal, which they see as irredeemable; and leavers cannot concede that their fundamental premise was flawed. Neither side is yet ready to work with the banal reality that Brexit is an unspectacular failure: neither triumph, nor apocalypse. It is the damp smell in British politics that can be endured, but not quite ignored. The longer it is left untreated, the more expensive it will be to fix.

But there is no realistic conversation about the relationship Britain should have with the rest of Europe, if not the one it has now; and the relationship it has now is the product of avoiding realistic debate for decades. As a result, the government – and perversely the opposition too – is committed to the task of finding a purpose in something that will keep proving itself pointless.

 

[dunover]

This is a decent article, balances things quite nicely, insofar as Brexit is obviously. and indeed objectively, a failure when measured against all the things it promised, but not enough of a failure for there ever to be any resolution over it.

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British politics still has remainers and leavers, but those labels tend to describe emotional attachments, not policy prescriptions. Pro-Europeans are not interested in fixing Johnson’s deal, which they see as irredeemable; and leavers cannot concede that their fundamental premise was flawed. Neither side is yet ready to work with the banal reality that Brexit is an unspectacular failure: neither triumph, nor apocalypse. It is the damp smell in British politics that can be endured, but not quite ignored. The longer it is left untreated, the more expensive it will be to fix.

But there is no realistic conversation about the relationship Britain should have with the rest of Europe, if not the one it has now; and the relationship it has now is the product of avoiding realistic debate for decades. As a result, the government – and perversely the opposition too – is committed to the task of finding a purpose in something that will keep proving itself pointless.

View attachment 158040

Pretty balanced and almost sensible, given it's in the Gradinua. It's pretty much how I thought it would pan out before Brexit was finally actioned last year. We would have issues, very mild or non-existent for most but harder for some. The waters would be choppy for a while until we poured the proverbial oil on them. Yes, there's pride on both sides as he says, but however bad the Brexit detractors paint things (as you have and certain elements of the media) polls still show no appetite for rejoining, very few have altered their old stance.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

I know that for some just being 'out of the EU' is the prize, that's the win in and of itself, and that's worth taking the pain for. (And I hope we're at least at the point now where we can all agree that Brexit is causing economic pain for the UK in many different ways, as the article above notes (and in fairness as I've said myself) no single thing or things that's any sort of death blow, but the 'Brexit Of Small Things' that's often referred to where a load of stuff just gets objectively worse).

And just in the last couple of days the UK government has had to delay the implementation of the UK kitemark, the replacement for the CE that's recognised all across the EU. British companies weren't even remotely ready for it and are already hurting enough on exports to the EU without more red tape thrown in their way, some EU companies were making it clear they wouldn't even bother to apply for the UK kitemark if their sales didn't justify it, there was literally no win involved for anyone except some vague notion of 'sovereignty' - so instead we're keeping the CE kitemark for another year and I suspect that when that year comes to an end we'll quietly extend again or just agree to abide to EU rules in perpetuity because doing anything else just isn't worth it.

Looking back, and being honest about the failings on both sides, I can see a world where the Norway option could have been sold as an acceptable way to get out of the EU without causing the pain, and without greatly offending Leavers or Remainers. (Lest we forget even Farage was extolling the virtues of it at one point.)

However, we are where we are, and the fallout will be continue to be felt for years to come. I've seen Brexit described as 'not a blowout, but a slow puncture' - and I think that's about right.

 

[dunover]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

I know that for some just being 'out of the EU' is the prize, that's the win in and of itself, and that's worth taking the pain for. (And I hope we're at least at the point now where we can all agree that Brexit is causing economic pain for the UK in many different ways, as the article above notes (and in fairness as I've said myself) no single thing or things that's any sort of death blow, but the 'Brexit Of Small Things' that's often referred to where a load of stuff just gets objectively worse).

And just in the last couple of days the UK government has had to delay the implementation of the UK kitemark, the replacement for the CE that's recognised all across the EU. British companies weren't even remotely ready for it and are already hurting enough on exports to the EU without more red tape thrown in their way, some EU companies were making it clear they wouldn't even bother to apply for the UK kitemark if their sales didn't justify it, there was literally no win involved for anyone except some vague notion of 'sovereignty' - so instead we're keeping the CE kitemark for another year and I suspect that when that year comes to an end we'll quietly extend again or just agree to abide to EU rules in perpetuity because doing anything else just isn't worth it.

Looking back, and being honest about the failings on both sides, I can see a world where the Norway option could have been sold as an acceptable way to get out of the EU without causing the pain, and without greatly offending Leavers or Remainers. (Lest we forget even Farage was extolling the virtues of it at one point.)

However, we are where we are, and the fallout will be continue to be felt for years to come. I've seen Brexit described as 'not a blowout, but a slow puncture' - and I think that's about right.

Yes, Norway not in the EU but in the customs union, something that the leavers in Westminster found unpalatable. Problem is, they also have free movement which I would suggest is the primary reason for most of the leave vote. So I can see why a 'Norway' would be a convenient fix to the trade issues, but you cannot it seems be in the customs union and not have free movement.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Yes, Norway not in the EU but in the customs union, something that the leavers in Westminster found unpalatable. Problem is, they also have free movement which I would suggest is the primary reason for most of the leave vote. So I can see why a 'Norway' would be a convenient fix to the trade issues, but you cannot it seems be in the customs union and not have free movement.

I think there would have been a way to sell it to both sides though, a smarter and more nimble politician than May could have managed it I think, instead of all that horseshit about a 'Red, White and Blue Brexit' that literally meant nothing at all except getting her some favourable headlines in the Daily Mail for a bit, and then sending that intellect vacuum David Davis to the EU to have his arse handed to him on a plate by Barnier.

And look where we've ended up with freedom of movement, a massive labour shortage and various industries crying out for visa extensions to EU citizens. (Yes I appreciate Covid is all mixed up in it as well, but we're the only country in Europe with the problems currently being experienced in the UK.)

And for anyone who was (for some bizarre reason) thinking it'd make any difference to the migrants crossing the channel, that was never going to happen (as was explained at the time) and indeed hasn't happened.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Iceland's managing director explicitly calls out Brexit-related supply chain issues (NOT the pingdemic and NOT Covid) as threatening unprecedented disruption to Christmas across the UK.

Says UK Gov has dropped the ball badly in not recognising HGV drivers as a skilled profession so they can continue to use EU drivers until UK drivers can be trained and brought online (assuming they want to do the job at all).

Calls Brexit a 'self-inflicted wound'.

Who knows @dunover - maybe there will be the dreaded pigs-in-blankets shortage after all!

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[dunover]

Iceland's managing director explicitly calls out Brexit-related supply chain issues (NOT the pingdemic and NOT Covid) as threatening unprecedented disruption to Christmas across the UK.

Says UK Gov has dropped the ball badly in not recognising HGV drivers as a skilled profession so they can continue to use EU drivers until UK drivers can be trained and brought online (assuming they want to do the job at all).

Calls Brexit a 'self-inflicted wound'.

Who knows @dunover - maybe there will be the dreaded pigs-in-blankets shortage after all!

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View attachment 158054

I've just checked my stocks. We have lots of gravy granules, stuffing, Oxo cubes, mature Xmas puddings from previous years (they keep ages) crackers in a box still, table cloths disposable, Vienettas in freezer, bread sauce sachet in cupboard. I have mini-sausages in freezer and packets of bacon (easy to make your own P-i-B's) tins of chocolates, bags of nuts, boxes of liquorice allsorts, wine gums, jelly babies to put out too. So just need the meats (produced in the UK such as beef joint, turkey crown, ham joint) and fresh spuds, carrots and sprouts (again UK produced) and I'm good to go. Luckily we have 2 fridges and 2 freezers here so plenty of storage to ensure all the hungry serfs can sit outside our house on Xmas Day and breathe in the tempting smell of a full roast dinner and buffet after they've had their turkey twizzlers, mushy peas and watery gravy. I'm sure they will also have plenty of imported Chinese tat to give each other in the morning too.
Luckily I'm not a customer of the downmarket places like Iceland and Farm Fattening Foods and I'm pretty sure the upmarket shops like M&S and Waitrose or my regular supplier Fortnum and Masons will move heaven and earth to ensure we're looked after this year.
It's a fucking shame that Brexit doesn't seemed to have reduced the supply of shite TV channels or content as to lose that this December would make it almost perfect. I'm a bit fed up with The Great Escape, Sink the Bismarck! and Guns of Navarone but even that's tolerable compared to dreadful ham-acted soaps and sodding Snowman cartoons.

 

[geordiecolin]

I read this morning that the difference is a Turkey shortage during Christmas.

I understand that the time to do our xmas ordering and buying is now because there will be serious shortages and it will have little to do with Brexit

 

[geordiecolin]

The thing is dunover, and this is what I keep coming back to on Brexit now, really, is what was the point?

Given that the World Economic Forum have stated that there will be a new world order and that only a few Countries will dictate and dominate the world ("America will not be one of them") and that so many countries around the world are dancing to their tune (build back better etc) do you believe that the EU matters much going forward,or do you think that there will be no new world order in which so many countries are dancing to the tune of?

 

[dealer wins]

Spot on geordie!!!

 

[geordiecolin]

Spot on geordie!!!

I think that so many folk are living their lives in denial Dealer

 

[mack341]

The IOM ambassador to the EU Mr Degsy Degworth will comment shortly, once he has stopped reading about truckers and the impending milkshake crisis

 

[geordiecolin]

The IOM ambassador to the EU Mr Degsy Degworth will comment shortly, once he has stopped reading about truckers and the impending milkshake crisis.

Or maybe once the NWO has taken route he will be next found supping a few beers with his fellow ex pat David Ike in the IOM talking about how things have gone wrong?




Then again maybe not

 

[Kroffe]

Time to learn me some English.

Is expat just a fancy word for immigrant or does it have a different definition?

 

[geordiecolin]

Time to learn me some English.

Is expat just a fancy word for immigrant or does it have a different definition?

I think that in this regard it is someone you at first patted on the the back when they first arrive but then after you get what you want you do not give a shit about

 

[mack341]

I always thought it meant you were no longer impersonating Pat Jennings, hence also david icke being an ex goalkeeper?
I'll get me coat

 

[geordiecolin]

I always thought it meant you were no longer impersonating Pat Jennings, hence also david icke being an ex goalkeeper?
I'll get me coat

VAR is so much more far reaching than you think!

 

[Kroffe]

I always thought it meant you were no longer impersonating Pat Jennings, hence also david icke being an ex goalkeeper?
I'll get me coat

I take it he was a good goalkeeper since there are so many around the world that has impersonated him.
I wonder if people stopped impersonating him and became expats because they couldnt get the hair right.
Elvis is probably easier.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Given that the World Economic Forum have stated that there will be a new world order and that only a few Countries will dictate and dominate the world ("America will not be one of them") and that so many countries around the world are dancing to their tune (build back better etc) do you believe that the EU matters much going forward,or do you think that there will be no new world order in which so many countries are dancing to the tune of?

I've no doubt that the economic plates of the world will shift further in the years to come, that is simply an inevitability, no crystal ball required. (One only needs to look at the last 100 years to see ample evidence of profound shifts in power across the world, both economic and military.)

That said, I think the UK would be better off as part of one of the largest and most powerful trading blocs in the world, rather than sat on the sidelines, stamping its feet and effectively saying, 'Don't you know who I am?' (The answer to that question increasingly being, of course, 'Not really, we'd rather talk to that massive bloc of 450 million people right next to you, if you don't mind.')

 

[bamberfishcake]

Bejesus, are we still blaming the world's ills on Brexit?

The fact is, laying the blame on Brexit could mean a payout. Nobody will get compensated for the pandemic.

If there are shortages, it's due to the world being shut down for months. (not that I have seen any shortages where I am, not far from London).

Its logistics, naff all to do with Brexit and nothing to do with countries refusing to trade, these deals are not set up in minutes, it's not like getting a payday loan, no matter what you read in the media.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Bejesus, are we still blaming the world's ills on Brexit?

The fact is, laying the blame on Brexit could mean a payout. Nobody will get compensated for the pandemic.

If there are shortages, it's due to the world being shut down for months. (not that I have seen any shortages where I am, not far from London).

Its logistics, naff all to do with Brexit and nothing to do with countries refusing to trade, these deals are not set up in minutes, it's not like getting a payday loan, no matter what you read in the media.

Impressed to see you know more about complex EU-wide supply chains than the managing director of Iceland there bamber, maybe you should apply for a job

 

[bamberfishcake]

Complex EU supply chains?

Pick up here and drop off there.

What's complex about that?

Nothing complex about a supply chain, company A has an address and ships to company B. I always thought supply chain manager was a glorified name for a controller. Like working in a cab office.

In any case, the point I am trying to make is that Iceland can jump on the bandwagon of failing companies looking to get compensation from Brexit whereas you cannot sue for the inevitable results of a pandemic which closed ports, shut down warehouses and companies etc.

The second point is one that you mentioned before - it's too early to see any effects and due to the timing, you cannot exclude the effects of the world being shut down.

p.s. no offence to anyone in logistics, I've been there myself and is a reactive job that can be stressful.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If you can make things work that easily bamber then you should definitely get on the phone to Tesco, Sainsbury's, M&S, McDonald's, Nando's, Iceland the Co-Op and others, because they will have a big fat paycheque waiting with your name on it.

I mean, it's possible that things are actually a bit more complicated than you're making out there, but I guess it's also possible that you've thought of something that the combined might of several multi-billion dollar companies haven't been able to work out - so give it a try!

 

[ChopleyIOM]

FT reports that multiple companies now 'sounding the alarm' over impending shortages in some areas and across some lines going into the run-up to Christmas.

EU worker shortage cited as one of the major contributing factors, but not the only factor, which no one (including myself) has been claiming. (Note, we're not just talking about HGV drivers, but workers in many sectors where EU workers have left and Brits are either unable or unwilling to take the jobs.)

-----------------------

UK business leaders stepped up calls for the government to help fix worker shortages that have resulted in empty supermarket shelves by warning of increased disruption in the run-up to Christmas.

A shortage of lorry drivers partly unleashed by post-Brexit immigration rules has hit supplies to supermarkets and other retailers, and the problems have been magnified by some food manufacturers and warehouse operators lacking sufficient staff.

Companies ranging from Iceland and Tesco to Suntory, Britvic and Greggs are among the many businesses contending with major disruption. Tony Danker, director-general of the CBI, the UK’s largest employers group, highlighted staff shortages involving not just heavy-goods-vehicle drivers but also butchers, construction workers, engineers and IT specialists.

“There is a clear need for the government to be agile and implement targeted short-term measures that provide immediate relief,” he said. Danker said that the government should add more sectors to its skilled immigrants list so as to bring in additional overseas workers on a temporary basis until Britons were trained up.

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[Spikie]

The Iceland boss also called out the IR35 contractor legislation killing the agency’s being able to find driving staff…

In the same Iceland feature that is in the news today it states they had loads of agency drivers from Europe earning £1500 per week who were paying very low taxes here, and sending most of their cash home..

Buy IR35 meant they have to pay normal taxes like employees, so now it is not as viable for them , so they went back home.

Not Brexit , IR35 which has been causing chaos for a while .

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The Iceland boss also called out the IR35 contractor legislation killing the agency’s being able to find driving staff…

In the same Iceland feature that is in the news today it states they had loads of agency drivers from Europe earning £1500 per week who were paying very low taxes here, and sending most of their cash home..

Buy IR35 meant they have to pay normal taxes like employees, so now it is not as viable for them , so they went back home.

Not Brexit , IR35 which has been causing chaos for a while .

Yes, I've readily and clearly acknowledged IR35 as being another factor in a very complex situation several times already in this very thread Spikie, as indeed do many of the articles that I link and quote here.

It's not all Brexit, I've never said it's just Brexit, but Brexit is a contributing factor to the current situation, the fact that all these major companies are saying that the problems will be massively alleviated by extending 'skilled worker' visas to EU HGV drivers strongly implies that IR35 won't stop the drivers coming back from the EU if the work visas are available for them.

 

[paul7388]

Was going to say here is a positive of Brexit. The new Data plans that are getting unveiled that were not possible in EU.

But i am sure Chopley will say that was always possible or find some negative to it. Surprised he never mentioned it in the thread but i guess only negatives he looks for.

Here is the Governments take on it tho all the papers have their say as well.

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[ChopleyIOM]

Was going to say here is a positive of Brexit. The new Data plans that are getting unveiled that were not possible in EU.

But i am sure Chopley will say that was always possible or find some negative to it. Surprised he never mentioned it in the thread but i guess only negatives he looks for.

Here is the Governments take on it tho all the papers have their say as well.

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Where to even start with all the problems with this policy, and this is actually on my own patch now

In essence conformity to the highest and most widely recognised standards are what matters in this field, so any sort of 'lightweight' standard just gets ignored. (For a very recent comparison point, look at the UK Gov deciding not to implement our own UK kitemark to replace the internationally recognised EU CE standard, when it became clear that no one in the UK wanted it and no one internationally would recognise it.)

Many UK datacentre hosting companies have already, without fanfare and without fuss, moved some datacentre capacity to the EU (Dublin is a favourite location, they've been very happy there), this will simply accelerate that process.

The EU isn't going to allow a 'have your data cake and eat it' approach from the UK, so as we diverge from the EU/GDPR you can bet we'll lose our 'data adequate' status, which will further incentivise UK operations to move to the EU so that they can comply with the highest standards, whilst also remaining 'backwards compatible' with what will then be our lower standards.

There's actually nothing the EU would like more than us shooting ourselves in the foot again to increase costs and complexity for British businesses looking to do business internationally, (which will still need to abide by GDPR unless they just want to sell British apples in Telford), as the EU will harvest the benefits. Many in the EU would be quite happy for the UK to erect its own data law barriers to UK tech firms and other service providers, which won't garner any sort of international recognition or importance - GDPR will continue to be king in this field.

Basically, you know all those stories that are being run now with how UK importers and exporters are having a torrid time doing business on the international stage and particularly with the EU, and how a lot of them have set up operations, warehousing and distribution in the EU to get around it? It'll be like that again but with data.

TL: DR - GDPR compliance will continue to be a thing on the international stage, and businesses (including in the UK!) will continue to uphold and adhere to those standards, the UK going rogue with its own small scale scheme won't gain any traction at all, and will just add further inconvenience, red tape and costs to UK Plc that really, really isn't interested.

(What it will do however, is open up your data being sold far and wide to whoever wants it, US style, so there's that, I guess. The 'UK Citizen' database will be quite valuable to various corporate interests, and you won't have the protections of GDPR.)

 

[bamberfishcake]

If you can make things work that easily bamber then you should definitely get on the phone to Tesco, Sainsbury's, M&S, McDonald's, Nando's, Iceland the Co-Op and others, because they will have a big fat paycheque waiting with your name on it.

I mean, it's possible that things are actually a bit more complicated than you're making out there, but I guess it's also possible that you've thought of something that the combined might of several multi-billion dollar companies haven't been able to work out - so give it a try!

Ok so this has turned into an argument I am not interested in.

My point was that these companies are gearing up for compensation because Brexit will pay and the pandemic wont.

You also put a lot of faith in the intelligence and capability of rank.

Just because someone is a CEO, it doesn't mean they know more than you and your opinion doesn't matter.

You need to think more of yourself.

If you are obsessed with making suggestions around peoples occupation, as well as Brexit, I put you forward for Hindsight Lad.

Have fun

 

[geordiecolin]

Bejesus, are we still blaming the world's ills on Brexit?

The fact is, laying the blame on Brexit could mean a payout. Nobody will get compensated for the pandemic.

If there are shortages, it's due to the world being shut down for months. (not that I have seen any shortages where I am, not far from London).

Its logistics, naff all to do with Brexit and nothing to do with countries refusing to trade, these deals are not set up in minutes, it's not like getting a payday loan, no matter what you read in the media.

The world has been operating on a just in time basis for decades now. Everything from car parts to food. China has shut most of its ports at a time when there is almost gridlock in shipping. Ships are lining up to drop off goods due to a lack of staffing at ports and the lack of drivers. This has led to a shortage of shipping containers. Add to that the ruination of crops at various places around the world there could be big increases in the cost of both food and other things. These next 6 months could be a shit show

 

[geordiecolin]

I've no doubt that the economic plates of the world will shift further in the years to come, that is simply an inevitability, no crystal ball required. (One only needs to look at the last 100 years to see ample evidence of profound shifts in power across the world, both economic and military.)

That said, I think the UK would be better off as part of one of the largest and most powerful trading blocs in the world, rather than sat on the sidelines, stamping its feet and effectively saying, 'Don't you know who I am?' (The answer to that question increasingly being, of course, 'Not really, we'd rather talk to that massive bloc of 450 million people right next to you, if you don't mind.')

If the new world order comes to pass as planned there would be no EU trade block to cozy up to

 

[mack341]

I don't know much about gdpr and the adv/disadv of leaving it, I am sceptical of boris and his pals; I think I did read it put a new burden of costs on small/medium firms, and of course the annoying cookie permision pop up nearly everytime you open a website, where if you don't just cllick 'yes' you're in for a long, complicated read.

Edit: I remember Max wrote quite a big post on gdpr, don't think he was a fan.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

I don't know much about gdpr and the adv/disadv of leaving it, I am sceptical of boris and his pals; I think I did read it put a new burden of costs on small/medium firms, and of course the annoying cookie permision pop up nearly everytime you open a website, where if you don't just cllick 'yes' you're in for a long, complicated read.

Edit: I remember Max wrote quite a big post on gdpr, don't think he was a fan.

GDPR has many flaws, no doubt about that, but either way it's become something of a de facto standard and deviating from it really doesn't make any sense, it's the 'highest standard' and that's what will continue to be worked to.

Creating our own secondary system simply adds bureaucracy and red tape to a situation that really doesn't need any of either, and risks our 'data adequacy' status with the EU itself.

Honestly mack, just read these bits out of the official UK Gov release that paul linked above, do you think this sounds like good news for the average person?

You don't need to be a genius to read between these lines, what might be 'common sense' for a corporate entity intending to use vast swathes of personal data for nefarious means (remember this is the same government that wanted to sell all your NHS records) might not be common sense to the average person in the street.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

If the new world order comes to pass as planned there would be no EU trade block to cozy up to

I have to admit that 'New World Order comes into force' is a bit of wildcard entry into the list of 'Why this bad thing is nothing to do with Brexit'

 

[mack341]

GDPR has many flaws, no doubt about that, but either way it's become something of a de facto standard and deviating from it really doesn't make any sense, it's the 'highest standard' and that's what will continue to be worked to.

Creating our own secondary system simply adds bureaucracy and red tape to a situation that really doesn't need any of either, and risks our 'data adequacy' status with the EU itself.

Honestly mack, just read these bits out of the official UK Gov release that paul linked above, do you think this sounds like good news for the average person?

You don't need to be a genius to read between these lines, what might be 'common sense' for a corporate entity intending to use vast swathes of personal data for nefarious means (remember this is the same government that wanted to sell all your NHS records) might not be common sense to the average person in the street.

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Yes I expect there could be underlying 'privacy/freedom' aspects, not being mentioned, to whatever changes the uk govt bring in, possibly removing or reducing protections the more intelligent/thoughtful type of mep's managed to get added in. The tech websites are normally quite good at unearthing the drawbacks once the govt release more details.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

And as expected, the EU is already making its position on the 'data adequacy' agreement with the UK clear, (i.e. we'd be jeopardising it), and many UK businesses are essentially saying they'd rather keep GDPR and not have another superfluous UK system on the go when they'd still have to adhere to GDPR anyway.

Please do understand that the data adequacy agreement was a pretty big concession from the EU as part of the Brexit Deal, the UK Gov threatening to grenade things so soon is a terrible act of bad faith, UK businesses of all sizes and shapes really need that agreement.

Still, Johnson and his pals won't get hurt by this, once again it's UK businesses and citizens who will (literally) pay the price.

It's just more jingoistic nonsense from a UK government that is in over its head and likes a snazzy headline far more than it's prepared to think through the consequences of its actions. So just like Brexit itself, really.

So yes @paul7388 - it's very easy to 'find some negative' with this appalling proposal.

EDIT - Oh yes and don't even begin to think there isn't some money making scheme in here for the Tories and their pals, there's an angle on this for some grifting of cash for the usual suspects, same as there always is.

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[bamberfishcake]

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More cooking up a storm in a t-cup over Brexit

p.s. He is an MP so clearly better and more intelligent than anybody ranked below him in society, so I know I shouldn't be criticising him, but hey

 

[ChopleyIOM]

There's a level of completely oblivious stupidity about John Redwood that occasionally manages to be almost, and I emphasise the almost, endearing.

I mean, these tweets might carry more power if they started with him admitting that he voted for this exact arrangement. These are literally the rules that he helped vote into effect.

 

[mack341]

When the prime minister who negotiated the leave deal stands up in Parliament and says 'sorry, that was the deal' then you might be right. In my opinion JR is mindful of the remainer civil service, how they need to be directed on such matters, and not allow them to dictate the conservative govt policy. It's up to boris to reply whether he agrees or not.

 

[syntynyt]

I was always under the impression that a good chunk from the voters of Brexit did it so for the sole purpose to put a stop to uncontrolled and unvetted immigration which has been tied to the EU, people could not feel at home anymore, plenty of foreign based crimes, and too much people, issues that led to accommodation shortages, strain on health system, wages staying put, and all that.
What happened tho after the fact? Dinghies landing as we speak with 800 persons EVERY DAY via France, given hotels, council houses and benefits. The demographics change following these numbers will take 'crime is part of parcel of living in a big city' to another level. Another lot of refugees* just received via planes from a totally alien country and culture instead of relocating them in a country they culturally belong. Plenty of east europeans left jobs that the british are not willing to do because of the nature of the jobs or the wages, the rights are there no more for the others. I personally said pass twice to UK offers for this very reason and after doing a tour of the west I happily relocated to Ireland which took me with both hands for the skills doing a nicely paid job. Except not being EUs lapdog anymore, I struggle to see the benefit of Brexit short and long term. All I see is a silent invasion that is irreversibly changing the country in spite of natives best wishes. You re saying for years that you are full, and indeed you are, yet no action is being taken? I have a friend working in an amazon depo in Birmingham, when we talk once a month like hes telling the tales with amazement of the unbattled crime he sees there that not even in Romania is happening. Strange times ahead watching the west imploding from within...

 

[mack341]

International Trade Secretary Liz Truss said she hoped to conclude negotiations to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement (CPTPP) by the end of next year. The £9trillion bloc has Australia, Canada, Japan and Singapore among its members as well as Brunei, Chile, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru and Vietnam.

Unlike the EU, the CPTPP also does not require the UK to sign up to identical regulations and standards as other organisations.
There is also no equivalent to the European Court of Justice, which can slap fines on member states accused of breaking EU rules.
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Sounds like good news, probably what the EU should've been instead of a faux superstate imposing mountains of its rules/laws.