Brexit - whats the difference.....

[ChopleyIOM]

Does cummings look like the kind of guy overly interested in the trappings of wealth, what is the proof of this narrative it's all an elaborate scheme to make himself and friends rich off the back of the taxpayer?

Just take a look into how PPE and other health contracts have been handled during Covid under the auspices of a 'state of emergency'.

Private Eye has been full of it the last few months, but there's been plenty of coverage in other media as well.

Also a lot of companies involved with the Vote Leave campaign have gone on to do very well from government contracts.

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[mack341]

Just take a look into how PPE and other health contracts have been handled during Covid under the auspices of a 'state of emergency'.

Private Eye has been full of it the last few months, but there's been plenty of coverage in other media as well.

Also a lot of companies involved with the Vote Leave campaign have gone on to do very well from government contracts.

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View attachment 141476

I daresay a bit of backscratching does go on, and in the private sector also with friends and associates getting contracts, but it's not always nefarious, sometimes it's based on trust of that individual being sufficiently competent to get the job done.

I don't trust michael Gove very much at all, and there has been a property scandal rumbling on, to do within another conservative minister, however I thought/hoped cummings would be a breath of fresh air and bring some innovative, nerdy tech guy influence to govt policy. In this day and age you need people who understand and are interested in technology and computers, I bet Boris knows bugger all other than the basics.

 

[Slottery]

Does cummings look like the kind of guy overly interested in the trappings of wealth, what is the proof of this narrative it's all an elaborate scheme to make himself and friends rich off the back of the taxpayer?

According to this article below, cummings is interested in setting up a uk equivalent of ARPA - Advanced Research Projects Agency - [ Now called darpa in the US ] Sounds like a good idea to me seeing as technology is crucial to the economy:

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He draws a few distinct lessons from ARPA’s history. The first is about the value of high-risk research. Cummings argues that even though many of ARPA’s projects failed, the “trillions of dollars of value” its successes created justify the investment. The second is about how to organise very high performing teams. Cummings sees ARPA’s success in this period as a result of its approach – low bureaucracy, high trust – and the management style of leaders like Licklider, who brought in “great people” and gave them a lot of leeway, while making sure they also connected with one another. It was its way of working, Cummings argues, that made 1960s ARPA an “extreme outlier” in performance.

He sees ARPA as a key part of a post-Brexit strategy for the UK, making it “the best place in the world to invent the future”.

Cummings is also vocal about his frustrations with the civil service and argues that the government could perform much better by cutting bureaucracy and hiring very talented people.

So you really trust this unelected bureaucrat and this plan to key part of post-Brexit? Is this really guy who make this success? Wouldn't buy used car from this guy or his history of BS as part of Boris brexit team wouldn't raise loads of trust. Is there anything concrete about this ARPA project or just these words what who ever here could write? If this makes UK great in post brexit, why in earth you fight about some fishing rights or NI border which shouldn't really matter (especially things which are already agreed and shouldn't even be talked anymore if somebody just would be able to read paper what has signed himself).

This really start to be British humor as it's best, unfortunately for most of British people there are much other things than fun and humor, just outside from UK this really looks like comedy from UK part and behavior.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Here's a really good, concise summary of how we've ended up where we have regarding the Ireland issue.

This 'rewriting history' narrative that's increasingly being pushed by Johnson, Gove and other high-ranking Tories really needs to be pushed back against. They absolutely should not, and indeed must not, get to try and apportion the blame for this fucking mess anywhere other than themselves.

To be clear, I don't blame people who voted Leave in the referendum, I blame the liars and the charlatans who sold such an absolute pup off the back of so many lies.

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[mack341]

So you really trust this unelected bureaucrat and this plan to key part of post-Brexit? Is this really guy who make this success? Wouldn't buy used car from this guy or his history of BS as part of Boris brexit team wouldn't raise loads of trust. Is there anything concrete about this ARPA project or just these words what who ever here could write? If this makes UK great in post brexit, why in earth you fight about some fishing rights or NI border which shouldn't really matter (especially things which are already agreed and shouldn't even be talked anymore if somebody just would be able to read paper what has signed himself).

This really start to be British humor as it's best, unfortunately for most of British people there are much other things than fun and humor, just outside from UK this really looks like comedy from UK part and behavior.

He's chief adviser to Boris as I understand it, and bojo was elected, so if he does a bad job, makes stupid decisions then democracy can affect an outcome for the two of them. He is not a permanent secretary [very high up bureaucrat] who are also unelected but tend to stay in place regardless of the govt that is in power at the time.

The ARPA quote was something I only read today, but it's out there, he's gone on the record about wanting to get brexit done and then get this project [an 'arpa' style agency ] up and running: it's for journalists in interviews, and MP's in parliament to pursue the substance of it.

If anything dodgy goes on with cummings I'm sure private eye and other publications will get tip offs.

The question you asked, which I put in bold, can just as easily be reversed and asked of the EU, bearing in mind they have 27 country members and are supposedly all-powerful and successful.

The whole way brexit has been handled could be described as a shambles, but there are multiple reasons for it, and it is hard to unpick it all to understand why we're in this situation now, for remainers to say it has nothing to do with the remainers in parliament/govt and the civil service cannot be correct.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The whole way brexit has been handled could be described as a shambles, but there are multiple reasons for it, and it is hard to unpick it all to understand why we're in this situation now, for remainers to say it has nothing to do with the remainers in parliament/govt and the civil service cannot be correct.

Just..... No, mack, sorry, you don't get to rewrite history either.

Remainers, by literal definition, voted for absolutely none of this shit, they voted against all of the crap we're seeing now, but they lost by a narrow margin - you absolutely cannot pin the blame for any of the entirely foreseeable and widely predicted chaos on the people who literally voted against it.

It's not that hard to unpick. Brexit was a total pile of shit sold by a bunch of liars, charlatans and thieves. They managed to get enough of a populist bandwagon rolling to win (just about) in a referendum by 52-48, and every single thing that has happened since is on them.

Just look at the timeline I posted above mack, if there's any single thing in there that you believe is factually incorrect then by all means call me out on it, but otherwise, this is Johnson's mess. His lies, his mendacity, his true-to-form performance as a liar and a cheat.

This is what happens when an opportunistic gameshow host who can't even tell you how many children he's fathered becomes Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and the scariest thing is he's a fucking lazy bastard as well so it's actually Dominic Cummings, the ultimate unelected bureaucrat, who's actually running the show.

The ultimate irony here is that the British people have a say in the EU elections and the MEPs that go to the European Parliament, which box are you going to tick if you want to get rid of Cummings?

 

[mack341]

Just..... No, mack, sorry, you don't get to rewrite history either.

Remainers, by literal definition, voted for absolutely none of this shit, they voted against all of the crap we're seeing now, but they lost by a narrow margin - you absolutely cannot pin the blame for any of the entirely foreseeable and widely predicted chaos on the people who literally voted against it.

It's not that hard to unpick. Brexit was a total pile of shit sold by a bunch of liars, charlatans and thieves. They managed to get enough of a populist bandwagon rolling to win (just about) in a referendum by 52-48, and every single thing that has happened since is on them.

Just look at the timeline I posted above mack, if there's any single thing in there that you believe is factually incorrect then by all means call me out on it, but otherwise, this is Johnson's mess. His lies, his mendacity, his true-to-form performance as a liar and a cheat.

This is what happens when an opportunistic gameshow host who can't even tell you how many children he's fathered becomes Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and the scariest thing is he's a fucking lazy bastard as well so it's actually Dominic Cummings, the ultimate unelected bureaucrat, who's actually running the show.

The ultimate irony here is that the British people have a say in the EU elections and the MEPs that go to the European Parliament, which box are you going to tick if you want to get rid of Cummings?

No I wasn't talking about the citizens who voted remain, but the many remainers in positions of political power after the vote result; your bold text in reply to my post is taking us into strawman territory here.

The truth is the majority of the country felt key affects and aspects of EU membership were not good hence they voted out; the proof is always in the pudding, and we haven't had enough time to compare outcomes, give brexit 10 years at least, and then let's see where we are, and where the EU is. [ I expect with more centralised power and control over the member states, and with no better results for the citizens ]

Where I will agree with you is that Boris is problematic, hard to pin down with all his bluster, smoke and mirrors, he is a strange one compared to other serious-minded politicians. However the jury is still out for me, I don't want to condemn him as useless before he's had a decent chance.

Edit: I agree with points 3,9,10,11,14,16 above in your post....30% isn't bad

 

[Slottery]

The question you asked, which I put in bold, can just as easily be reversed and asked of the EU, bearing in mind they have 27 country members and are supposedly all-powerful and successful.

About this, i have to admit that i'm not fully aware about that fishing right fight, just took it as example which looks like situation when your house is burning and thing you try to find and save is pack of cigarettes, just that there would be probably something bit more important than delay negotiations with this.

About Ireland, i think it's already agree right? That's only make it really childish to start to stop negotiations and start to argue for something what's signed already, and then people wonder why negotiations don't get anywhere or oven ready trade deal don't get finished. It's also not only mean EU who is again mean to you with this, i think i heard from news Nancy Pelosi saying that if you willing mess up Ireland situation, there's no trade deal between UK and US so it's not only EU and you know yourself that there are some valid points why not to start to mess anything between Ireland and NI and Boris thought it's good idea too when he signed paper but now making his tantrums and try to get EU walk out from negotiations that would have somebody else blame than his own actions.

That's really quite common opinion, even outside of EU (if you read ie. US papers where are many which people keep quite reliable) that it's really UK, not EU who is making this difficult and itself little bit stupid looking with these tricks. Also it don't really grow trustworthiness of UK when already agreed things can be just forgotten and start to change them which then pretty much would mean going through whole agreement step by step again. If you can't trust PM:s name in paper, what there you can trust when you make deals?

Haven't comment that thread much before lately as thought it's more UK peeps thing, but as EU citizen, i unfortunately am part of that deal making what EU and UK agree and this just start to look more and more joke every day, can never guess what's in news tomorrow (it have been looking joke for long but it's really getting ridiculous, especially when some only blame other part and see UK and Boris doing great but only EU is bad and evil without good faith, that's not really respectful to say about 27 countries who are that bad and evil EU).

 

[mack341]

About this, i have to admit that i'm not fully aware about that fishing right fight, just took it as example which looks like situation when your house is burning and thing you try to find and save is pack of cigarettes, just that there would be probably something bit more important than delay negotiations with this.

About Ireland, i think it's already agree right? That's only make it really childish to start to stop negotiations and start to argue for something what's signed already, and then people wonder why negotiations don't get anywhere or oven ready trade deal don't get finished. It's also not only mean EU who is again mean to you with this, i think i heard from news Nancy Pelosi saying that if you willing mess up Ireland situation, there's no trade deal between UK and US so it's not only EU and you know yourself that there are some valid points why not to start to mess anything between Ireland and NI and Boris thought it's good idea too when he signed paper but now making his tantrums and try to get EU walk out from negotiations that would have somebody else blame than his own actions.

That's really quite common opinion, even outside of EU (if you read ie. US papers where are many which people keep quite reliable) that it's really UK, not EU who is making this difficult and itself little bit stupid looking with these tricks. Also it don't really grow trustworthiness of UK when already agreed things can be just forgotten and start to change them which then pretty much would mean going through whole agreement step by step again. If you can't trust PM:s name in paper, what there you can trust when you make deals?

Haven't comment that thread much before lately as thought it's more UK peeps thing, but as EU citizen, i unfortunately am part of that deal making what EU and UK agree and this just start to look more and more joke every day, can never guess what's in news tomorrow (it have been looking joke for long but it's really getting ridiculous, especially when some only blame other part and see UK and Boris doing great but only EU is bad and evil without good faith, that's not really respectful to say about 27 countries who are that bad and evil EU).

I don't think it's ever viewed as the other 27 countries and their citizens are bad, just the powerful people in the EU organisation and around it like merkel/macron.

It is a mess of our own making to some degree [50/50] but I would say that was the remainer wing of the tories and civil service upper echelons [the establishment for want of a better word] they never wanted us to leave the EU.

That's why I was saying it is difficult to unpick, as no one is honest about their motivations/motives for taking the particular path they did. Add on top of that, the wide perception that the uk govt ran a campaign of fear mongering to keep us in, and it all becomes hard to trust any govt spokesman etc...

The sequence of events after boris took the reins doesn't really make sense to me, especially now as he wants to reverse things, he's basically got himself/us in this mess for being naive about the EU coming to an agreement regarding a Free trade deal, that would be true to the notion of us leaving/ brexit.

--------

I'm just seeing a few tweets about boris and an injunction, so the plot thickens best I'd not say anymore as it could be contentious or a load of made up nonsense.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

No I wasn't talking about the citizens who voted remain, but the many remainers in positions of political power after the vote result; your bold text in reply to my post is taking us into strawman territory here.

Thanks for clarifying mack, and re-reading your post I can see you were indeed talking about 'establishment remainers'

TBH though, my basic point still stands, I just don't see there's a world where the blame for the current Brexit shitshow - (which you say yourself is a 'shambles' in some regards) - can be laid at the feet of Remainers.

I know Theresa May has been retrospectively recast as 'Theresa The Appeaser' and 'Theresa The Remainer' but lest we forget she was held up as a beacon of Brexit in the early days, telling us we'd get a 'Red, White and Blue Brexit' and we all remember the Daily Mail front page calling her 'The New Iron Lady' and how she'd make Brussels pay for a shitty deal?



Ultimately however, May was prepared to confront reality in a way Johnson has not been, and she outright refused to put a border down the Irish Sea, for all the reasons that are now becoming apparent.

It cannot be stressed enough that Johnson did not, in any real sense of the word, renegotiate anything, all he did was throw Northern Ireland under the bus, and sign up to a WA that satisfied the EU in terms of protections for Ireland, specifically of course, protecting peace in Ireland.

No one made Johnson sign up to the WA, once he'd won the election he could have paused, but of course then he'd have to admit that he'd lied his arse off about what the WA entailed, and fess up that there never was an 'Oven Ready Deal' and that Brexit would not, in fact, be 'done' - so like all congenital liars he just doubled down on the lies, told his own MPs they could 'change the WA later', and now those lies are coming home to roost.

Sorry mack, you don't get to pin this farce on Remainers, the Leave side has to own it, this is Johnson and his government's mess, no one else's.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Quite a neat little summary here, in fact.



---------------

 

[Slottery]

By quick look, world really look different in British papers. Of course it's natural to be national and keep your own side but comparing Brexit negotiations to WWII just sounds bit humoristic...

The Luftwaffe couldn't destroy the City and neither will Mr Barnier (Express)

The EU is not acting in good faith. It’s time for Britain to walk away from this mess (Telegraph)

'Tears in my eyes!': Viewers sing along with rousing renditions of Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia at the Prom after BBC back down over lyrics' 'imperialist ties' (Mail on Sunday)

I know these are papers that are not famous of their analytical deep analyses but this rhetoric just looks.... weird. All bad evil EU again and poor UK have to fight against 27 other countries (what Barnier and other are representing, like these "big" mentioned EU people ie. Merkel, Macron). We start to be near of world record of victimisation if that's taken to Guinnes book of records.

 

[goatwack]

This is nothing new, our media goes into some default nationalistic fervour to sell papers, with a 'Them versus us' or more realistically 'us against the world, nobody likes us and we don't care' outer shell.

So yes, roll out any hint of us 'in the trenches' scenarios and out come the nationalistic tropes, which must look utterly bonkers to any non-Brit. It gets especially bad during football, and notably England vs Germany!

Funniest thing is seeing these papers trying to stir up this country's hidden sense of nationalism and/ patriotism, when we clearly have none (anymore). So yes, it must look of particular bemusement to the other 27 E.U member states. God knows it's cringe-worthy enough

 

[ChopleyIOM]

The messaging from America is increasingly clear, if the UK does anything to unilaterally break the Good Friday Agreement (which is what the Tories are currently passing legislation to make possible), there will be no UK/USA trade deal.

(Do remember of course, that there was a lot of American input into the GFA in the first place, Irish politics is more important in the USA than some folks are aware of.)

All those Brexiteers in parliament seemed to forget that other countries are sovereign too, and the UK 'TAKING BACK CONTROL' and doing what it wants, for itself, doesn't happen in a vacuum.

Other sovereign nations, watch, and take note, and act in their own interests too.

 

[Slottery]

Hope this helps Boris to get back to reality and some progress could happen again instead of just playing time with these.... Think Nancy Pelosi said this same right away after this GFA thing was brought on table. Not sure who is right and who is wrong, but it seems that only some Tories think it's ok and reasonable while rest of the world seem to be disagreeing.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Remember all those great trade deals we were going to get once released from the oppressive shackles of the EU? But it's now becoming increasingly clear that, at best, we'll just get the same as we would have got anyway (i.e. Japan), or possibly nothing at all depending on how mad the Tories go (i.e. USA).

Well, arch-Brexiteer John Redwood now says that trade deals are optional, they're a 'nice to have'.

I hope you've all got some money squirrelled away folks, 'cause shit's gonna start getting expensive next year at this rate.

Still, sovereignty, right?

 

[Slottery]

Some of these hard core Brexiteers really dream to be North-Korea of Europe (or do they want to be categorized to be something else than part of Europe geographically, it's not impossible to change it to be Britain, not part of Europe). No idea who that Redwood guy is but if no any trading between other countries is needed and UK just produce itself everything what consume and all people can make living without any trading with other countries, why not? Just hard to see it making any good for majority of people to make their living.

Just staying inside of own borders, having own laws and money, what else anyone would need.

 

[ChopleyIOM]

Hmmm, this hasn't aged well.

Another Brexiteer well and truly caught with his lying pants on fire.

Scarily enough, he's actually a fairly prominent UK MP, and indeed has served as a Minister for various departments in previous Conservative governments.

 

[mack341]

Some of these hard core Brexiteers really dream to be North-Korea of Europe (or do they want to be categorized to be something else than part of Europe geographically, it's not impossible to change it to be Britain, not part of Europe). No idea who that Redwood guy is but if no any trading between other countries is needed and UK just produce itself everything what consume and all people can make living without any trading with other countries, why not? Just hard to see it making any good for majority of people to make their living.

Just staying inside of own borders, having own laws and money, what else anyone would need.

If you read his tweet he states the EU never had a trade deal with the US, the implicaton being we [uk] still traded with the US. There will be trade but under WTO rules; it's a balance between what you have to give up in order to get a better bespoke trade deal, in the opinion of our negotiator david frost and the uk govt, the EU want too much.

-------------

Some criticism of the EU by Polish MEP Ryszard Antoni Legutko:



"The mainstream majority wants to crush every form of dissent "

"The European institution wants to switch off democratically constituted institutions of the nation states. They instigate internal conflict by endorsing some parties against other parties. This is not your business, you shouldn't do it!"

"I urge you work with member states not with ideologically driven campaigns masquerading as political groups in this house. Save the European Union from ideology and return it to reality."

 

[Slottery]

Yess

If you read his tweet he states the EU never had a trade deal with the US, the implicaton being we [uk] still traded with the US. There will be trade but under WTO rules; it's a balance between what you have to give up in order to get a better bespoke trade deal, in the opinion of our negotiator david frost and the uk govt, the EU want too much.

Yes, but in tweet he wrote deals, not deal which kind of made me understand that there is no need to any trade deals but just borders, laws and money, he didn't specify which countries he and his tweet starts :"Trade deals are nice to have but not essential." and then in next sentence he started to speak about US, English is not my first language so apologies if i understand it wrong but how i understand it is that he speak trade deals in general in first sentece and then next sentence he mention that UK didn't have trade deal with US when in EU, but as these were two separate sentences "." middle of them, if it would have been "," then i would have understood that he is especially referring to US trade deal but when wrote like this, i understand it like i explained.

I stand corrected if i'm totally wrong in understanding what i read, it's been while i was in school, so feel free to ecucate me and tell i got it totally wrong and i'm happy with that. Then just have to remember this language rule in English as an exception to most of other languages i can read even little bit

edit: About other part of quoted text:

Some criticism of the EU by Polish MEP Ryszard Antoni Legutko:



"The mainstream majority wants to crush every form of dissent "

"The European institution wants to switch off democratically constituted institutions of the nation states. They instigate internal conflict by endorsing some parties against other parties. This is not your business, you shouldn't do it!"

"I urge you work with member states not with ideologically driven campaigns masquerading as political groups in this house. Save the European Union from ideology and return it to reality."

If it was kind of foreseen that EU is going to break as it's got something else what people want, wouldn't it have made more sense to stay there until there are other countries leaving as well or even whole union breaks up? Assume it would have been easier to get things sorted than making it just as lonely leaver (at least can't imagine it to be much more mess than it's now)? If majority of countries getting unhappy within coming years, then more organized break up will happen, so wonder why it was so hurry to do it (yes i know, Blair was stupid and didn't think that people could vote "wrong" but wanted to get another support for EU by referendum which for this complicated thing is just in my opinion not best option how it was done, quite big things to decide by gut feeling without any understanding what everything is going to be affected and how but by reading leaflets and bus sides commercials).

 

[ternur]

Pacta sunt servanda UK.

Is that really so hard?

 

[pinnit2014]

Pacta sunt servanda UK.

Is that really so hard?

Si.

Oui.

Ja.

 

[mack341]

Yess

Yes, but in tweet he wrote deals, not deal which kind of made me understand that there is no need to any trade deals but just borders, laws and money, he didn't specify which countries he and his tweet starts :"Trade deals are nice to have but not essential." and then in next sentence he started to speak about US, English is not my first language so apologies if i understand it wrong but how i understand it is that he speak trade deals in general in first sentece and then next sentence he mention that UK didn't have trade deal with US when in EU, but as these were two separate sentences "." middle of them, if it would have been "," then i would have understood that he is especially referring to US trade deal but when wrote like this, i understand it like i explained.

I stand corrected if i'm totally wrong in understanding what i read, it's been while i was in school, so feel free to ecucate me and tell i got it totally wrong and i'm happy with that. Then just have to remember this language rule in English as an exception to most of other languages i can read even little bit

No need to apologise, his tweet is a standalone one rather than a reply, so I assumed by the timing, and also by specifically mentioning the US, it relates to the recent threat from US politicians regarding the internal market bill that boris and the tories are in the process of passing: that it could scupper any us/uk trade agreement getting through congress.

I think with the wto rules, a certain amount of open trade has been made possible, not entirely sure how it works because, for example, the EU forbid hormone beef so that means US beef can't be sold in the EU; and just looking that up it did go before a WTO dispute panel, but looks rather complicated

 

[paul7388]

Pacta sunt servanda UK.

Is that really so hard?

Was just about to type that but you beat me to it.

 

[Slottery]

I think with the wto rules, a certain amount of open trade has been made possible, not entirely sure how it works because, for example, the EU forbid hormone beef so that means US beef can't be sold in the EU; and just looking that up it did go before a WTO dispute panel, but looks rather complicated

But they can't force anyone to buy hormone beef (or actually they kind of might, Tescos and such huge chains buy what they get cheap and also if hormone beef and chloric chicken and what so ever are cheaper to produce so some giant shops might be interested for better price or if it's kind of pushed to be part of portfolio of products they wanna sell etc...), consumers for sure still have everything very natural available as long there is a demand for these products, just it looks little bit that people like to speak a lot to buy natural food and ecological things but once going to shop, it's price tag which matters (some unfortunately is affordability issue and some others just wanna spend money to elsewhere and eat hormone beef).

Sure any country is happy to sell products to UK, is there trade deal or not, producers want to sell. Just taxes and tariffs might affect to consumer prices to be higher without these deals, but it's not that there wouldn't be some products in UK, nobody AFAIK is planning any boycot or restrictions like against Russian