Betfred

trigo

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Pichilemu
Hello,

I transferred to the casino from the sportsbook, where I kept a balance to bet on sports, to play a betfred casino promotion. When transferring, the chat help told me that I could get a higher bonus on the 2nd transfer so I transferred back to the sports and transferred into the casino again and got the higher bonus. I managed to win and they confiscated my winnings saying that the transfer out and back in was abusive and that I violated terms because bonus would only be given on deposits to the casino and not transfers.

Since I used to bet at the sportsbook there I always had a balance sitting, so I made several transfers from the sportsbook to the casino and was always granted the bonus so how can it be that bonus credits are only for deposits rather than transfers from the sportsbook? The times when I transferred, received a bonus, and lost I was not given back my losses but the time when I transfer, receive the bonus, and win they say that the transfer was not eligible for bonus (even though it was automatically given).

I don't think this is fair, especially from a reputable casino that is accredited on this site. What do you think of my problem?
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Location
Saltirelandia
FWIW, the OP has already PAB'd this. The Terms make it clear that chip transfers are restricted:
10. Only deposits to casino, not chips transfers, count towards participation in promotions and bonuses. Failure to comply with this rule will result in bonus funds and winnings voided.

The OP's defense was "I did not see any such term at the time". When asked if they were claiming that the Term had been added and applied retroactively the OP ignored the question.

No mention was made during the PAB of a chat conversation.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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Sounds like yet another case of the player not reading the T&Cs and then crying foul when they get caught out...

Must be the season for it! :p

KK
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
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Left Hungary
Sounds like yet another case of the player not reading the T&Cs and then crying foul when they get caught out...

Must be the season for it!

KK
__________________
Well put KK. Amazing isn't it...what a trend that has started for the casinos to have to spend useless time on when it could be spent doing something good for real players...this makes about 8 so far this past few weeks??? Ridiculous isn't it....One or two might have a valid complaint (but I haven't seen one yet)....

.
 

KariRunk

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Dec 20, 2007
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EU
Well put KK. Amazing isn't it...what a trend that has started for the casinos to have to spend useless time on when it could be spent doing something good for real players...this makes about 8 so far this past few weeks??? Ridiculous isn't it....One or two might have a valid complaint (but I haven't seen one yet)....

.

So you have never ever misread something, or missed something when you read a whole 10 page of terms and conditions which are deliberately written the way that they as hard to understand as possible. I know I have.

But since OP has obviously just wasted casinos customer support precious time, I think he/she should apologize to casino and promise never do that again.

And this term is BS term anyway. What difference it makes do you actually deposit to casino or make transfer from sportsbook section?
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
And this term is BS term anyway. What difference it makes do you actually deposit to casino or make transfer from sportsbook section?

Actually, this isn't BS. It's a very smart rule. For the casino. From the players side it is totally useless, of course. :mad:

The casino wants to earn money.
As soon as your money arrives to an online casino or sportsbook the chance for them to earn them from you by house edge are big.

Most players don't make withdrawals for 30$ from sportsbooks. They are trying to win more berore they cashout. Most of them lose..

If they transfer them to the casino account the sportsbooks probably lost those 30. Ok, they have a great chance to win them at the casino instead. But if you have to make a new deposit at the casino instead...you will lose more.:D

This makes the money transferred from sportsbooks accounts worth less than a proper new deposit.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
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Left Hungary
KariRunk: So you have never ever misread something, or missed something when you read a whole 10 page of terms and conditions which are deliberately written the way that they as hard to understand
No, because I avoid taking bonuses unless they are too good to be true...then I give it a shot because I always like a challenge, which of course is extremely seldom.

If I missed reading something in the T&C"s that means 1.) the terms were already there but I was too occupied to find them 2.) it was for me to find, not the casinos to lead me through it point by point 3.) the onus was on me to play accordingly or of course #4.) not take one...simple..

Once you agree to a bonus, it is up to you to play by their rules, not the other way around. Bonuses are not a right but a gift, a showing of appreciation for your play. It is up to the player to follow these rules. Otherwise, just say no..and don't take one.

..
 

DiamondGeezer

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NOT Pennsylvania!!!
What an absurd unjust rule. What possible difference can it make?

If you can't get a bonus via an internal transfer the bonus should not have been awarded. By awarding it they are themselves breaking their own terms and conditions. How can they enforce something they themselves have broken? Ludicrous.

I know for a fact Bet365 and The Tote both allow it and they use the same software. If the player has gained no advantage from doing it how can it be fair?

Although looking at the facts of this if true it sounds like the player was given wrong information by cs because you can't forfeit a bonus by internal transfer and then claim a better bonus. That can't be right.

It's lame that they even allow the scope for this to happen though. It's almost as if they get a kick out of letting players try and get one over on them knowing they can invoke these terms.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
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Left Hungary
DiamondGeezer: What an absurd unjust rule.
As i said somewhere...it is the " new twist to the rules" you have to be really careful in looking for as each casino has their own..totally different one. I, personally am too lazy to deal with bonuses...it takes a mathmetician, legalese, and an accountant to keep track of any bonus involved..not my cup of tea...

Not that , that helps, but at least it makes you more aware of their little "twists" if you are brave enough to take a bonus nowadays.
.
 

trigo

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Location
Pichilemu
To clear things up, I’m not trying to misrepresent anything. This happened December of last year and I’ve been corresponding with them many times since so I’m probably forgetting things and it’s all kind of confusing. Max was helpful in helping me talk with the casino.

I do not have that chat history. I realize I put in my chat that they said if I transfer again I would get the higher bonus. Actually, I just hastily typed that. Maybe they said if I deposited again I would get the higher bonus. I don’t remember, but it was some kind of ladder type bonus system that chat explained to me so I wanted the higher one. The reason is because I never even realized there was a difference between transferring and depositing. I suppose I missed it if it was there at the time in the terms. Sometimes I believe I deposited into the casino with them and other times when I had a big balance in the sportsbook, I simply transferred.

The impression I first got from discussing my problem with the casino was that the abuse was in me transferring out and transferring back in order to bypass the first, smaller bonus and get the higher one. They considered this abusive. Later on, I think it became more about the transfer versus deposit clause but it is all a bit muddled.

The problem I have is that I am getting credited the bonus each time I transfer yet each time the bonus is invalid. I lost several deposits this way. I would think a top casino would have a system that did not issue the bonus if my method of funding was not right. As a poster here mentioned, I couldn’t see a site like Bet365 ( I play there and transfer between sports and casino too) doing anything like this.

So maybe there should be a difference between super-accredited sites like bet365 that will go out of their way to notify a player of how the bonus works and block certain funding methods from receiving bonuses and those that will adhere strictly to their legalese but will hold you to every letter of it.
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
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Location
Saltirelandia
I realize I put in my chat that they said if I transfer again I would get the higher bonus. Actually, I just hastily typed that. Maybe they said if I deposited again I would get the higher bonus.

You need to understand that those are two very different things. The first is a serious accusation, basically them luring you into breaking the Terms.

The second is them telling you how to gain from the bonus and stay within the Terms.

I realize it may have been an honest mistake, but it's a whopper of a mistake!
 

nerv

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 14, 2007
Location
lower back of EU
The problem I have is that I am getting credited the bonus each time I transfer yet each time the bonus is invalid. I lost several deposits this way. I would think a top casino would have a system that did not issue the bonus if my method of funding was not right.

This is were I see the problem in general. Why the SYSTEM granting bonus if it is not meant to be?

I don't wish to say casino trying to deliberately fraud players but unwilling to do, what I see as their home work completely and try to do a follow up in application of what is said or changed in rules.
I also know it is cumbersome and takes time to adjust software for it, but if I am not wrong, this rule is there for long enough (i am guessing, don't really know for sure)?
Some books/casinos have just opposite way of cash flow where you have to deposit to book first and then transfer it to the casino. This could confuse average player playing ant many books/casinos.

All in all, I think that casinos should keep a pressure on software providers to incorporate options and modules which will accommodate their need for fast adjustments.
I understand it should be given some time to casino to adjust it, but on the other hand casino should send an email to all their customers about change or the T&C with focus on changes made. No just "We changed the rules, please read it all again and try to spot differences".
 

Casinomeister

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Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Hi all,

I just want to try and clear up this issue, and perhaps see if there is a necessity to have the casino review their terms or the process in which bonuses are offered. Here is the player's complaint as posted here in the forum:

Hello,

I transferred to the casino from the sportsbook, where I kept a balance to bet on sports, to play a betfred casino promotion. When transferring, the chat help told me that I could get a higher bonus on the 2nd transfer so I transferred back to the sports and transferred into the casino again and got the higher bonus. I managed to win and they confiscated my winnings saying that the transfer out and back in was abusive and that I violated terms because bonus would only be given on deposits to the casino and not transfers.

Since I used to bet at the sportsbook there I always had a balance sitting, so I made several transfers from the sportsbook to the casino and was always granted the bonus so how can it be that bonus credits are only for deposits rather than transfers from the sportsbook? The times when I transferred, received a bonus, and lost I was not given back my losses but the time when I transfer, receive the bonus, and win they say that the transfer was not eligible for bonus (even though it was automatically given).

I don't think this is fair, especially from a reputable casino that is accredited on this site. What do you think of my problem?

Okay, here is his PAB that was submitted to us:

I deposited into the casino and they gave a bonus but said that if I deposited again I would get a larger bonus so I transferred out to the sports and back to the casino again and was able to receive the larger bonus as the person on the chat told me. Then I won and they took my winnings because they said I was abusing the bonus. This is the only time I won at the casino and I also played at their sports betting and never received bonuses there so my history shows I'm a good customer yet they took my winnings simply because I wanted the larger bonus as they told me about.

And the casino's response:

...This player issue is going on since Christmas as it refers to a Christmas promotion.

As explained several times to the player since then, he violated the terms and conditions (see general bonus rules of the casino by clicking here
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
) and tried to take advantage of the promotion.

The promotion consisted of numerous bonuses per VIP level around Christmas, increasing with every subsequent deposit. On this specific day the player was entitled to 50% up to 25 EUR reload on his first deposit of the day and 75% up to 150 EUR on the second deposit of the day. The player deposited and got the 50% bonus, he did not play but immediately transferred the funds to his sportsbook balance only to re-transfer them back to the casino and receive the 75% bonus and the much higher amount.

As per the Casino Bonus rules:

10. Only deposits to casino, not chips transfers, count towards participation in promotions and bonuses. Failure to comply with this rule will result in bonus funds and winnings voided.

This procedure is in place to prevent such practice as this player, where customers will just transfer winnings or balance from the Sportsbook and the games to take advantage of Casino promotions or just transfer funds back and forth to get a bigger bonus they still have not qualified for. With a bigger bonus (esp 75% up to 150EUR), the player has much more chances to win, which is okay as long as she or he qualified for this bonus. That was not the case with this player.

The customer support team advised the player as he correctly states below that he will get a higher bonus on his next deposit. However they did not confirm he can transfer the funds out to void the original bonus and then transfer back to receive the larger one and nor he ask for such information...
It seems to me that the player is confused between the term "transfer" and "deposit". Which brings me to the point of why would a casino offer a bonus to a player who merely transfers money back and forth? It's the same money. This should have been in the back of the player's mind when he was transferring the funds thinking this was what the casino meant. To me, there is no incentive for a casino to offer a bonus on a transfer.

Of course there is an incentive to have a player make a subsequent deposit - and this is what the player should have understood.

It seems to be a moot issue - but if these bonuses are added automatically when the player transfers money, then there is something wrong with the bonus system, and this should be corrected as soon as possible so that these instances don't happen again in the future.
 

maphesto

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
It seems to be a moot issue - but if these bonuses are added automatically when the player transfers money, then there is something wrong with the bonus system, and this should be corrected as soon as possible so that these instances don't happen again in the future.

Exactly!

And there are a lot of smart things to do to prevent sad bonus issues and others.

This is for casinos in general:

* Make it impossible to play restricted games when playing with a bonus

* Make it impossible to make restricted high bets during bonus play(There are casinos who limit betsize to prevent advantage play by T&C)

* Make it impossible to make a withdrawal before WR are met

Etc.

All these things are quite easy to fix, but sometimes I really think that casinos don't fix it just because they earn more money by have todays system.

All money lost is the casinos even if you have made illegal bets. Money won during illegal bets are the casinos because they can hide behind T&C:s.

And it's always (almost anyway) newbies in online gaming that breaks T&C:s without knowing it.
 

nerv

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Location
lower back of EU
It seems to be a moot issue - but if these bonuses are added automatically when the player transfers money, then there is something wrong with the bonus system, and this should be corrected as soon as possible so that these instances don't happen again in the future.

This is exactly what I wanted to say in previous post!

Not against the player but he did wrong (deliberately or not, I don't know).

But if casino does not add bonuses on transfers but on deposits only, this whole tread wouldn't exist.
 

ternur

Destroying castles in the sky
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On a side note, this promotion (Christmas bonus ladder) from Betfred was not handled by them in a way that should be acceptable from a accredited casino.

The promotion was based on consecutive deposits which would give the player a higher match bonus each time, i.e. bonus added with every deposit during the promotion period.

But then Betfred changed their mind in the middle of the promotion and informed me that I'm not eligible to receive any more bonuses. They also downgraded my VIP level immediately which resulted in a lost value for comp points.

Should this be acceptable? Create a promotion based on increasing match bonus on every deposit and then tell the player he is not eligible for any bonuses (during the promotion) since he claims a bonus with every deposit !?

That was truly in the spirit of christmas.

Sorry for the derail on topic.
 
Last edited:

maphesto

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Joined
Jun 5, 2009
Location
Sweden
The promotion was based on consecutive deposits which would give the player a higher match bonus each time

This means that players took "crappy" bonuses like 50% the first day just to be able to reach really good bonuses in the end?

But then Betfred changed their mind in the middle of the promotion and informed me that I'm not eligible to receive any more bonuses.

:mad:

And they made this decition just because they could. "The casino has the right ..."

They also downgraded my VIP level immediately which resulted in a lost value for comp points.

Well, just another example of a casino who almost open declares that we only want to have losing customers. "We don't even want eventually winning players to feel welcome"

Should this be acceptable? Create a promotion based on increasing match bonus on every deposit and then tell the player he is not eligible for any bonuses (during the promotion) since he claims a bonus with every deposit !?

No!

It's definately not acceptable. A casino can bonus ban players, but when they have this kind of bonus ladder promotion it's plain wrong.

That was truly in the spirit of christmas.

:lolup: What other "gifts" did you receive for christmas? Did someone kill your cat? A flat tyre?
 

ternur

Destroying castles in the sky
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This means that players took "crappy" bonuses like 50% the first day just to be able to reach really good bonuses in the end?

Yep. Exactly. But it was just a christmas hoax from the "Bonus King".

:lolup: What other "gifts" did you receive for christmas? Did someone kill your cat? A flat tyre?

:p Well my employer had me working the whole christmas :lolup:.
 
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