Betfair Casino bonus problem - bogus PAB - bot use

[Roar]

He's quite entitled to use the strategy card, but doing something which is contrary to the rules or law is just wrong.

The rules compel the Casino to behave and demonstrate a commitment to 'Responsible Gaming'. Period. The debate as to what exactly constitutes 'Responsible Gaming' in a online context is valid.

A 'bot' simply mimics a player consulting a BJ strategy card. It is not a magic wand that can touch cards and turn them into a BlackJack at will. A 'bot' can not sprinkle fairy dust across a blackjack table and cause the house to bust.

A 'bot' does not interfere with the normal operation of the game in any way, shape or form.

The prohibition on 'bot' play seeks to do just that.

If a player repeatedly deposits and loses large sums of money the Casino does not send him to Gamblers Anonymous - they send him a bonus.

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[GrandMaster]

The casino needs to show it to the player and maybe their regulator.

But before that, the player, who is seeking help here, needs to answer that question.

There is a betfair bot that I imagine is being used heavily on their site. The varying bets stated would suggest not, but seven hours of play is bizarre.

If we could see the playlogs it would be fairly easily to determine whether or not a bot has been used. I'd expect to see constant play for a long period of time (not necessarily the whole seven hours), with no strategy errors, without any 'comfort break' time.

It should be very easy to modify a bot so that it does not play at constant speed, that it takes breaks and that it does not make the same decisions in certain marginal cases, perhaps it could even make outright error occasionally.

 

[Roar]

The rules compel the Casino to behave and demonstrate a commitment to 'Responsible Gaming'. Period. The debate as to what exactly constitutes 'Responsible Gaming' in a online context is valid.

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In September 2007 the Gambling Commission (UK) introduced and enforced regulations that oblige operators (ie Casinos) to observe and monitor a range of criteria with respect to 'Responsible Gambling' a list of which can be found at the link above.

Specifically, "Operators must ensure that the terms by which gambling is offered are not unfair."

To be sure, 'Responsible Gambling' is much more than ploppy Joe betting beyond his means.

Whether the prohibition of 'bots' is unfair would IMHO be determined and measured by a 'net effect' to a players bankroll.

In addition, again IMHO, the intent of such 'bot' prohibition by said Operator (Casino) would bear witness in determining fairness/unfairness to players.

Whether the player (we remember you OP) employed the services of a 'bot' or not is moot in terms of 'Responsible Gambling' regulated by the Gambling Commission (UK). BetFair Casino may not fall under the UK regulator but nonetheless even the Maltese LGA would be strongly influenced by such legislation.

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[GrandMaster]

Specifically, "Operators must ensure that the terms by which gambling is offered are not unfair."

To be sure, 'Responsible Gambling' is much more than ploppy Joe betting beyond his means.

Whether the prohibition of 'bots' is unfair would IMHO be determined and measured by a 'net effect' to a players bankroll.

I don't think it is more unfair than enforcing a dress code.

 

[Roar]

I don't think it is more unfair than enforcing a dress code.

If your attire is causing additional -EV at your local B+M, then may I suggest a little more color co-ordination between the high heels and fish-net stockings could be in order GM.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just an FYI, I'm still waiting for Chartwell to get back to me on the gameplay/software issue. And I'm anticipating that RedArmy will be returning shortly as well.

 

[sdaddy]

Gotta say, I'm a little annoyed that the OP never responded to the direct question (repeatedly asked) of whether or not a bot was used.

Whatever problems I had with Betfair in providing evidence for its actions in this case, if the player involved is not going to stand up and rebut the allegations, then I can't get too worked up about what happened.

 

[Yblomm53]

Sorry for my late response, havent checked this thread for a while, thinking Betfair isn't going to resolve this anyway. No, I have not used a bot

 

[RedArmy]

Betfair Casino

Good day,

sorry i was away with a foot operation

i have now designated an email address to assist you with any queries on the forum

gamesdutymanager@betfair.com

Our aim is to resolve your issues quickly and fairly

We are currently investigating the complaints and i would ask you to go through forum Player Grievance Manager - Max

with kind regards,

RedArmy

 

[RedArmy]

Betfair

sorry that was maxd !

:baby:

 

[sdaddy]

Sorry for my late response, havent checked this thread for a while, thinking Betfair isn't going to resolve this anyway. No, I have not used a bot

Well, it's your money, but if it were me (and I was innocent), I would insist that I be told what solid proof Betfair has that I used a bot. Maybe they keep ignoring you, or maybe you call their bluff and make them reverse their decision.

 

[Pinababy69]

Good day,

sorry i was away with a foot operation

i have now designated an email address to assist you with any queries on the forum

gamesdutymanager@betfair.com

Our aim is to resolve your issues quickly and fairly

We are currently investigating the complaints and i would ask you to go through forum Player Grievance Manager - Max

with kind regards,

RedArmy

Hi Max....do you know if this complaint was ever resolved? Along with the issue of Betfair not being able to supply player logs upon request. This post was made a few months ago, and since then there have been no updates. Thanks.

 

[maxd]

The casino claimed that fraud was involved and they were unwilling to consider the player's plea: case closed.

 

[Pinababy69]

The casino claimed that fraud was involved and they were unwilling to consider the player's plea: case closed.

Thanks Max. Were you personally satisfied that this was the case? What I mean is in other claims of fraud cases, the casinos generally show you and/or Bryan their "proof". Did this happen here, and if so, are you personally satisfied that there was indeed fraud? If not, those are not really the actions of an accredited casino, are they?

Sorry to dredge up an old issue, but this is one that bothered me for the longest time, and there was never a final answer on it til now. It wasn't just the bonus abuse claims either, which I think was the casino's first response to this. Big difference between bonus abuse and true fraud. There was also the fact that the casino either couldn't or wouldn't supply game logs to a player upon request. Not sure if that's in this thread or another..I'll have to go look.

Anyway, just trying to cut to the chase here....so I can put it to rest in my mind, one way or another. Thanks!!

 

[maxd]

Well, I can't say it was the _most_ satisfied I've ever been with a "fraud" issue but they aren't known for messing about with spurious fraud accusations so there's a certain amount of taking them at their word here.

FWIW, the type of evidence they had isn't the kind that normally gets passed around because it involves their internal security measures with they usually keep pretty close to the chest.

As to it being unbecoming of an accredited casino I'd have to say that's not something you can conclude from a single case like this. If they were doing it over and over, yes, that would raise a red flag.

Re: "Big difference between bonus abuse and true fraud". Not to worry, I'm well aware that the "bonus abuse" stick gets used far too easily and far too often. In general a "bonus abuse" accusation doesn't really wash with us, and we've gone toe-to-toe with casinos over this many times in the past.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just to add a bit more - the software provider explained to their casino reps what had happened, they just didn't send a copy since like Max said would be an internal security issue. I just want to make it clear that they just didn't claim it was a fraudster - and we obeyingly nodded our heads in agreement.

 

[Pinababy69]

Just to add a bit more - the software provider explained to their casino reps what had happened, they just didn't send a copy since like Max said would be an internal security issue. I just want to make it clear that they just didn't claim it was a fraudster - and we obeyingly nodded our heads in agreement.

Thanks for the replies Max and Bryan. Can you at least tell us if the fraud claim was more along the lines of multiple account/phony id type fraud.....or was it more in relation to their claims of "bot" play?

 

[Casinomeister]

It was bot play with their resolution of "The initial 250 bonus has been deducted from the client and they are free to withdraw the remaining funds."

 

[vinylweatherman]

It was bot play with their resolution of "The initial 250 bonus has been deducted from the client and they are free to withdraw the remaining funds."

Was bot play forbidden in the terms, or was this one of their "at our discresion" decisions because the play was with a bonus.

Bot play is not fraud as such, but an extreme version of "advantage play", which would be PERFECTLY OK were this a Microgaming Casino, and not Chartwell, assuming there was no rule against making initial big bets with the whole balance (so forget Fortune Lounge).

As Chartwell is no-download, I wonder if this could have been MORE than mere bot play, as bot play does NOT give the player an advantage over the house, and is often considered a "stupid rule", even though the casino would be right to revoke a bonus if said rule existed and should have been read by the player.

Was the OP banned from Casinomeister for being an "extreme advantage player", or for wasting your and Max's time with a pointless PAB?

I did notice that the OP freely admitted to the starting big bet strategy, and was clearly and advantage player who knew what they were doing.

It answers another question, there IS a "Chartwell bot", why? Who on earth wasted their time programming that - terrible casino software to play & crap bonuses to boot.

Better off writing an RTG bot in COBOL

 

[maxd]

Was the OP banned from Casinomeister for being an "extreme advantage player", or for wasting your and Max's time with a pointless PAB?

Players get banned from casinos for being advantage players, members get banned from Casinomeister for filing bogus PABs.

 

[Casinomeister]

Really, the bottom line is...if you want to use a bot, check with the casino support beforehand. If they say, "yeah, go ahead - no problemo." then get this in writing and then knock yourself out.

I think that most MGS casinos forbid bots. Sure they may have one built into their software for many of their games, but if they forbid you to use your own, then don't do it.

And yes, submit a bogus PAB then it tschss from Meisterland. It would have been different if the player had admitted using a bot and hoped to get paid (it's stated in their terms and conditions that bot play is a no-no), but she didn't. She forgot to add that to her PAB - sorry, adios.